On what planet is the difference between Chris Sale and Eduardo Rodriguez worth Yoan Moncada? Especially when it would push either Porcello or Pomeranz out of the playoff rotation?
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Any potential talks will go nowhere when Chicago demands Bogaerts and/or Betts, which is within their rights when Sale is the guy in question.
FWIW Cameron's annual trade value series has Moncada and Jose Quintana's ranked at 26th and 25th highest, so you would think it would be a good chunk more than Moncada to get Sale (Bradley as well maybe)? This is not the kind of market I want to be trying to buy Sale in with such a top heavy farm system. So, no thanks.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2016-trade-value-21-to-30/
I'd rather take my chances with the wide open AL division, and let another team empty their tank. There really isn't a team I'd say the Sox have a less than even chance at beating.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2016-trade-value-21-to-30/
I'd rather take my chances with the wide open AL division, and let another team empty their tank. There really isn't a team I'd say the Sox have a less than even chance at beating.
And?
The three of those guys are more or less equal in value. They might, in theory, get one, but they'd get little else, so there's no point from Chicago's perspective, it's just a lateral move for a team hat wants to rebuild.
Well sure, they have a right to ask for anyone and everyone. But if they are truly looking for a rebuild, I'm not sure they're going to get a better package from anyone than one centered around Moncada.
I am in the camp if it doesnt cost anyone that is playing right now ie any of the three Bs I would open up the prospects for Sale. If the Sox landed him with their offense and there rotation with him they would have to instantly be the favorites to go the World Series from the AL. You can say that bout the Rangers if they got him or the the Astros if the ys got him this guy is a true difference maker and those types dont come on the market very often.
I don't know if I'm quite willing to say there is no team that would be favored over the Sox, but I think it's close enough that I am more or less unwilling to trade Benintendi or Moncada for anything. I mean, sure, you can come up with something I'd be willing to trade either or both of them for, but those aren't the trades that happen in reality.
Sale has lost a lot of his strikeouts this year. I'd want to be confident I knew why before sending Moncada+ to Chicago.
I would be scared to death if Texas or Houston got Sale I cant even imagine think about a rotation for Texas of Sale, Darvish, and Hamels in a playoff series scary.
Just to round out the information here with relevant Sox of various colors, and their previous rank in parentheses:
#38 -- Benintendi (unranked)
#28 -- JBJ (unranked)
#26 -- Quintana (#41)
#25 -- Moncada (unranked)
#20 -- Bogaerts (#33)
#15 -- Sale (#6)
#7 -- Betts (#11)
I wouldn't either. I should have said there wasn't a team I wouldn't roll the dice against. I'm not sure if they'd be favored vs the Cubs or possibly Nats or O's. Though it's pretty damn close after the trades they've made.
FWIW - they are 6-7 vs. the Jays (dead even run differential). 4-6 vs the o's. 3-1 vs the Giants. 3-1 vs the Indians. 5-2 vs the Stros, 3-3 vs Texas. 2-1 vs Seattle.
His fastball is slower, but his changeup is the same speed. He's induced startlingly fewer whiffs on the latter—~13%, compared to 20% historically.
Yeah, it would be like facing Scherzer, Verlander, and Sanchez.
Scary.
And look where the Tigers are now.
That they are listening doesn't mean they want to deal. I'm guessing this is like the Marlins listening on Fernandez. Go ahead and blow me away. I'm listening...
Maybe. But the Marlins are trending upward and are in the thick of the WC race. The White Sox sort of are what they are.
Except what the White Sox are includes being the best team in the AL, for a full calendar month.
Sadly I think some other team like the Rangers or the Astros maybe the Dodgers will beat that offer so no I don't suppose that would get it done. I would do that in a heartbeat though.
Yeah, their one good month happened to come at the beginning of the year. What they are is, maybe a .500 team.
The White Sox haven't been good in a long time. What they're doing doesn't seem to be working. It wouldn't be ridiculous for them to try a reboot.
Considering their pitching, it also wouldn't be ridiculous for them to hold onto their two best starters and build the offense around Eaton, Frazier, and Abreu with lesser trades and free agency.
Hey we're all talking about Chicago selling because their GM said they're probably selling. So.
No, the GM said they're fielding calls, not that they're sell-now.
Blow 'em away with Mookie + EdRo + Barnes.
Then maybe you'll get Sale.
Blow 'em away with Mookie + EdRo + Barnes.
Then maybe you'll get Sale.
Betts alone is at least as valuable as Sale. They don't have to add stuff to *maybe* get him.
They do if Chicago is waiting for someone to blow them away and is content to keep Sale and build around him if they don't get offered an overpay. If they asked Texas for Profar and Gallo, then the Sox are already at something like Bradley and either Moncada or Benintendi in a similar request. They aren' getting Sale for just prospects without actually emptying the farm. The other option is including one of the B's.
Quintana might be a more realistic target, but that price is still going to hurt. You can probably get away without including Moncada or any of the major league B's, but you're probably still looking at something like Swihart, Benintendi and Kopech because, again, they don't HAVE to deal.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/17121892/chicago-white-sox-open-rebuild-not-interested-rentals
The GM is describing his team as mired in mediocrity and is openly discussing selling. If you have a better plan for the White Sox that's awesome, but it doesn't appear where they're headed and is less interesting than what their GM thinks and is openly considering doing.
It would not take more than Mookie Betts, and he obviously wouldn't be part of the trade. We're talking around what would work for both teams if it happened.
“@KnuckleballFRS: Per @JonHeyman, #Royals may be in position to sell this deadline: https://t.co/EiJ3jB1yqc
Wade Davis?
Wade Davis?
They'll be waiting a long time if they expect a player who is as good as Sale right now, with more years of team control, and additional prospects as well.
Exactly. The question is whether they want to be blown away, or really go all-in on a rebuild. If the former, we probably don't match up. If the latter, something could work, but it will really sting. Obviously entertaining offers that demand Betts, Bogaerts or even Bradley would be a bit absurd, as the idea for a team acquiring Sale would be to bolster their contention this season, and then you comfortably move on.
They have Sale under control for 3 more years and Quintana for 4. They have plenty of time to put a contender together around those two and have zero reason to feel like they have to make a deal now. This is like when people were convinced Stanton was going to be dealt because he was into his arb years. The White Sox are in complete control here and have no reason to accept fair value for either pitcher. With the ridiculous cost of starting pitching in the market right now, it would be a fireable offense to deal Sale for equal value.
Deal Robertson, Frazier, Melky and Lawrie, ride a gutted roster to a top 3 pick and aim for an advanced bat you can push through the system quickly like Bregman or Bryant and you could easily have an exciting team on the field in 2018 with a 2 year window before Sale can hit free agency.
Yeah, make the pale hose an offer they can't refuse for Sale or Quintana. Otherwise, no sense in dealing them, unless they think an injury is imminent.
An exciting team maybe, but not a contending team. If they gut their roster and get a top 3 pick, the chances of them being a contender during Sale's tenure aren't good.
They certainly don't need to do anything, but they may feel that turning their best asset--who could blow his arm out on any pitch--into several younger stud assets is the direction they want to go. They aren't playing well, they aren't drawing well, and as long as Kenny Williams has been around, they've never been against shaking things up. I think it's unlikely that he's moved, but it's a possibility. And while none of us know what it would take, I think that a package built around Moncada would, at least, get them interested.
The White Sox are the ones who let it leak they are fielding offers, we didn't just start taking about it out of thin air. And if they are indeed serious about trading him, they know it won't be a lateral move, it will be trading today for tomorrow.
Haven't they been trying to build around Sale and Quintana since around 2012? It hasn't worked at all. They're not under any kind of gun to get rid of either of them so yes, any trade would mean the acquiring team would absolutely have to give up a bunch. But they're not leaking their being open to "anybody" being traded for no reason, and they'd have to know going into it that asking Boston for Betts or Bogaerts would make no sense. If that's their view of "sensible" then obviously you just move on. Assuming for a moment they aren't...
It is an extraordinary long shot to be sure, but answering with "well they could also keep Sale and Quintana and build around them" is sort of "no shit" territory and belies what it appears they're considering doing. Hence this discussion.
It is an extraordinary long shot to be sure, but answering with "well they could also keep Sale and Quintana and build around them" is sort of "no shit" territory and belies what it appears they're considering doing. Hence this discussion.
The Sox ability to absorb Robertson, who is both a short term and long term need with Koji and Tazawa gone next year (and Smith gone through mid summer), might make them a bit more attractive. Moncada, Swihart, Rodriguez plus taking Robertson might get it done.
Of course they "leaked it." Why wouldn't they admit they're open to talking about anyone? I've still yet to see a single compelling argument for why they should move Sale or Quintana for equal value. Both players are under a solid amount of control and neither is expensive. Those are assets you build around and don't move unless you are overwhelmed. The White Sox are happy to be overwhelmed, which is why they floated to the media that they're not buyers and are willing to talk about everyone on their roster. That doesn't mean they intend to move either of their best pitchers.
And to be clear, I'm not saying there's no chance for a trade. I'm saying there's no chance for a fair value trade. There is just no reason for them to do that right now.
You think Sale and Quintana have been part of the problem?
[QUOTE="Snodgrass'Muff, post: 1800315, member: 40951You think Sale and Quintana have been part of the problem?[/QUOTE]
That's not what he's saying. He's saying the White Sox haven't been able to build successfully around them
That's not what he's saying. He's saying the White Sox haven't been able to build successfully around them
Sale has been pitching with his offspeed stuff this year to try to go deeper into games and deeper into the season. Don't read too much into the lower Ks.
Yeah, I know. But unless you think they are part of the problem, the fact that they haven't built a contender around them is not a valid reason to feel the need to move them right now. This is Stanton redux. The Marlins weren't under any real pressure to trade him when his name became an obsession here a few years back. They took phone calls on him and were happy to be blown away, but never were. He's still in Miami. Same with Fernandez. They weren't under any pressure to deal him right away and were happy to talk to teams and wait for an overpay. They reportedly asked for a preposterous return because they weren't really interested in moving him.
The White Sox are not looking to move Sale or Quintana. They are looking to see if anyone is willing to overpay. It was true of the Marlins both times. It's true here.
Probably in the minority here, but I hope Kenny Williams demands an outrageous haul for Sale that no one will agree to. I like Sale where he is now and am content to let the Red Sox take their chances against the rest of the AL without him. I would trade Moncada and/or Benintendi in the right deal, but I won't be disappointed if that deal doesn't come along.
The White Sox have no urgent need to rid themselves of Robertson's contract. Relatively, their payroll is manageable. They do however have Nate Jones ready to take over as closer, so for that reason Robertson is possibly expendable.
Just giving you the true perspective from Chicago-
The Sox have been incredibly unlucky in trying to build around Sale and Quintana over the past two years (2013 and 2014 were throw-away rebuilding years. Recall, we traded Peavy at the deadline in 2013 with Det/Bos involved). The team this year has been hit with some injuries, bad luck, underperformance of Jose Abreu, bad luck, a huge hole at the catching position, bad bullpen injuries, Austin Jackson going down, and did I mention bad luck?
The Sox have no positional players coming up in the system. I think they're finally looking in the mirror, a bit envious of what the Red Sox, Astros and Cubs have done, and realize that this might be their best chance to really re-stock and get ready for 2018+. They've got Rodon and Fulmer anchoring the pitching staff in the coming years, possibly with Spencer Adams. Might be a chance to retool by letting Sale or Q go.
The White Sox are not going to trade Chris Sale straight up for Betts, and they are not of the same value. That's crazy talk.
Just to add- this is something he was talking about in spring training rather than post hoc analysis
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/03/19/levine-chris-sale-is-done-with-controversy-ready-to-pitch/
Fangraphs' trade value column that just came out has Betts ranked 7th and Sale 15th. I know that's not gospel and GMs are obviously not bound by that, but it's as decent a barometer as anything, certainly enough to say that it's not crazy talk. Betts' extra year of control makes a big difference.
I didn't say it was a "valid reason." I'm not a GM. I said that it may be a line of thought they're pursuing--"perhaps, instead of trying yet again to build around them, we can take our best asset(s) and get more for a future we're pursuing." They're the ones entertaining the idea of trading them, not me. What the GMs of Sosh would do is kinda not that interesting to me, but maybe I'm alone on that.
No. The Marlins never grabbed every available reporter and claimed there was no such thing as an untouchable the way they were approaching things.
Again--it is a longshot, and they may be signalling in an effort to try and get someone to go crazy. But they're telling the baseball world they are seriously considering hitting "reset." So it is worth discussing what that might mean.
I agree that they're considering hitting the reset button. I just disagree that the price is anywhere near what the discussion has swirled around so far. Again, they asked for Gallo and Profar from Texas supposedly. That puts them in Marlins "shopping" Fernandez territory, which went nowhere fast. It's in their best interest to see if someone will go nuts. They're not giving him up for a prospect package built around Moncada, though. At least not one that doesn't completely gut the farm. That's all I'm saying. If we're gonna discuss it, discuss it realistically. The cost will be prohibitively high.
I could see Texas biting that particular bullet. I can't see Dombrowski and the Sox doing it, though. Maybe some SoSHers would be willing to go that far.
There is no absence of realism here, Snod. The White Sox will start their ask high, obviously. The discussion is centering around Moncada because if it took more than Moncada--ie Betts, Bogaerts, etc--that's not going to happen and isn't worth debating. DD isn't going to do it, no one here would want to do it, and it is debatable that CHW has that as a goal anyway if they're seriously motivated to move either. Maybe they're not really motivated and are only looking for a Godfather offer, but that would be somewhat at odds with what Hahn is saying and the tone in which he's saying it.
IF the WSox like Moncada enough--something you absolutely do not have the evidence to rule out, btw--then maybe you consider it, and the permutations of which are interesting enough to have generated some fairly sane posting here thus far.