I’m a 4, but trending towards a 5 when I think about how any young players that really break through will end up on the Dodgers, while I get lectured about sustainability, and how baseball players cost money once again.
What is the Minimum Level of Success You will be Satisfied with from the 2024 Red Sox?
- Thread starter CR67dream
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Do we even know if Breslow/FO are planning to spend money this year, or if they're more focused on acquiring prospects? Because my answer would depend a lot on what their strategy is -- if we ever know it.
This reads like they're not spending anything.
View: https://twitter.com/PeteAbe/status/1747306690263781564?t=wYRIJzml9eBcm_X898gwOQ&s=19
They might start charging for cokes in the clubhouse at this rate.
There's some discussion of this in the rumors thread, and you're not alone in your feelings, but a bunch of folks also read it differently. Is there any quote from that blurb that makes you feel that way specifically. , or is it just that you don't feel you can trust them no matter what they say? Edit: which is absolutely fine, you would not be alone in that by any means.
I'm genuinely curious, personally I think he spoke today mostly to correct the impressions the ill advised "full throttle" comments left people with, and Werner's quotes later seem to back that up. I certainly don't see it as saying they won't spend anything, and I doubt without the uproar he would have felt the need to say anything today.
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Would be happy with 3, tolerate 4 but they’ve essentially lost me as far as time commitment (ironic I know coming from someone who is spending time reading and writing on these threads but…). I’m not likely to watch many games and will give my season ticket account management over to my friend who takes the most games (for his business). I’ll read about them in the Globe, but really don’t expect to get emotionally involved…and it’s hard to believe and sad that I‘ve gotten to this point. Wake me up next off season….
I feel this way because he said that in answer to a question about whether the team was going to pay for free agents to fill current needs they need to address in order to compete. This is how Pete described his question to Craig:
His answer is "no, and here's what that means" only he skipped saying "no" (for obvious reasons) and expanded upon "here's what that means."
Ok, thanks, I just see it as quite a bit more complicated than that. And he definitely didn't say the words you ascribe to him, it's your interpretation of those words, and mine's just very different. If you're interested, you can check out the other thread and if not that's cool too. Not trying to change anyone's mind.
As you were replying, I had edited above to add that it's perfectly fine to feel you can't trust them, you're certainly not alone, and we all have the end of our rope. it's just interesting to me to get an accurate picture of how people feel, and what got them there. No judgement.
As you were replying, I had edited above to add that it's perfectly fine to feel you can't trust them, you're certainly not alone, and we all have the end of our rope. it's just interesting to me to get an accurate picture of how people feel, and what got them there. No judgement.
You know I was right there with you.
3, 4. whatever. I'll buy the MLB package, I'll watch a lot of games, and when they come to Chicago and Cleveland, I'll happily go to a couple of games. I hope they do really well, but I'll enjoy it whenever they do actually do well over the course of the long season. I guess I'm one of those mindless lemmings that ownership loves, but so be it. The Sox bring me joy and escape every season, they've been a big part of my life for over 50 years, and will be as long as I'm around. They give me companionship. If they finish in last, well, we'll get 'em next year.
The minimum level of "success" that will satisfy me is for the 2024 Boston Fuckin' Red Sox (from ownership on down) to remember that they ARE the Boston Fuckin' Red Sox and to proceed accordingly. It's been too long since that's been the case IMO.
I voted 4 and really would want a top 5 draft pick.
Thanks for posting this article. To me it says that prospects are hard to value except the very top. And we know that the most likely way of finding those guys is to draft high. The Red Sox need some cost-controlled premium talent. Hopefully they already have a couple but I think mors is necessary.
Gun to my head, I want to see pitchers who nail the corners with strikes, batters who don’t swing at shit in the dirt, heads up base runners who don’t stumble around to the Benny Hill theme, infielders who don’t throw the ball around like children out there, and please God, I wanna see outfielders who hit the damn cutoff man instead of letting everyone take second base airmailing hopelessly stupid throws to home plate. Is that too much to ask from the Boston Red Sox?
If so, then sink or swim with the kids. Let’s see what we have here. I can live with that, I enjoyed the home stretch of the 2015 season.
Who knows, maybe lightning strikes and poll options 3 and 4 don’t have to be mutually exclusive.
If so, then sink or swim with the kids. Let’s see what we have here. I can live with that, I enjoyed the home stretch of the 2015 season.
Who knows, maybe lightning strikes and poll options 3 and 4 don’t have to be mutually exclusive.
If someone told me in October that the major acquisitions for this offseason were going to be Lucas Giolito, Vaughn Grissom and Tyler O'Neill; I'd be pretty bummed out.
But that looks like it's going to be it--maybe a few tweaks. I honestly can't even muster up the energy to be pissed off. Whatever. I'll go to a game or two this year and I'm sure I'll watch a bunch after the Celts and B's are done, but my excitement level for the team this season is as low as it's ever been. That's what I'm most angry at the FO about, they've got me apathetic about my favorite team. Which is something that Yawkeys never did. There were years that the Sox were awful, but at least they seemed like they cared.
Jack Clark, Danny Darwin and Matt Young were terrible acquisitions, but I never thought that Lou Gorman wasn't trying to win. Dan Duquette made some head scratching moves, but at least he appeared to want a World Series. Even signing like Crawford, Hanley, Lackey, Sandoval -- they were done in order to win and compete that season. These three don't move the needle at all. It's just another year of financial flexibility and making sure that the ROI is as awesome as can be.
Hooray!
But that looks like it's going to be it--maybe a few tweaks. I honestly can't even muster up the energy to be pissed off. Whatever. I'll go to a game or two this year and I'm sure I'll watch a bunch after the Celts and B's are done, but my excitement level for the team this season is as low as it's ever been. That's what I'm most angry at the FO about, they've got me apathetic about my favorite team. Which is something that Yawkeys never did. There were years that the Sox were awful, but at least they seemed like they cared.
Jack Clark, Danny Darwin and Matt Young were terrible acquisitions, but I never thought that Lou Gorman wasn't trying to win. Dan Duquette made some head scratching moves, but at least he appeared to want a World Series. Even signing like Crawford, Hanley, Lackey, Sandoval -- they were done in order to win and compete that season. These three don't move the needle at all. It's just another year of financial flexibility and making sure that the ROI is as awesome as can be.
Hooray!
You're forgetting the first rule of being a Sox fan. Giving up too early is unacceptable. Any eventual defeat is going to be slow and agonizing.
I wouldn't have it any other way.
Makes the years that we reach the mountaintop all the much sweeter.I'm confused a little, do you think Breslow won't try to win? It's not as if Gorman was given a blank check, to say the least. If those were the types of moves that passed for a big splash here today, I don't want to even think about it.
Surely you don't think that winning was the primary focus during the Yawkey/Harrington years, do you? I'd argue that the torch and pitchfork anger we've seen lately could have been more deservedly applied to that era. They were never, ever as committed to winning as this group has at least sometimes demonstrated.
ETA: Even when Duquette made his big splashes with Pedro, Manny et al, it was in large part in anticipation of the Yawkey Trust selling the team and making it worth more $$. Sure they would have loved a title to go with it, but IMO it wasn't close to their top priority.
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Do I think that Breslow wants to win? Yes, I do. Do I think that ownership wants to win? I'm not sure, but it doesn't appear to me that they want to. My point was that Gorman was given money to improve the team by Harrington/Yawkey, he thought that he could improve the team with Clark, Darwin and Young. Those moves didn't turn out great (though Clark had a decent enough first year in Boston) but it wasn't for lack of trying.
I'm not sure if I agree with you about winning not being the primary focus during the Y/H. The overall answer to that is that it's more complicated than yes or no--which to be fair is probably the answer to whether this ownership is committed to winning now. I think that the evidence points that they really haven't been in the last four seasons. Like the Y/H ownership, it appears that a commitment to winning ebbs and flows with both ownership groups; so I'll walk that claim back a little bit.
As far as ownership right now, I don't think that they care whether they win or lose. I know that they'd prefer to win (that's better for business) but I don't think that they prefer it enough to spend the money that it takes to field a winning ball club in 2024. And yes, I know that they were committed to winning, and I thank them very, very much from the bottom of my heart for spending the money to build a winner (and reaping the untold spoils that one gets when the team wins). But they simply aren't doing this any more. I've resigned myself to the fact that this is true and while I'm not okay with it, I'm not going to riot in the streets.
To put it another way, say you went to a Chinese restaurant because for the last 20 years they served great food at slightly higher prices but you didn't care about what you spent because the food was excellent and the times you spent there were so fun. However in the last four years, the restaurant's chef quit, the service is terrible, the quality of food has plummeted but the prices are still high and the owners are raising them every year. You still go back to that place because you remember how much fun you had and how much you liked the food, but it's just not the same. You don't want to torch the place, but you're still a bit bummed out and you're going to other non-Chinese food places to spend your cash.
That's where I am.
Thanks, man, you know I understand and respect where you're coming from, it just seemed that you conflated the GM and ownership roles a bit. I think Breslow and Gorman are/were both at the mercy of ownership. Such is the way, but I think both want/wanted to build and win within whatever that framework is/was. What I don't see is that Yawkey/Harrington ever really gave Gorman much of a chance to accomplish his goal ('86 aside). Which, if anything, is what I worry about with the current regime and Breslow, not his commitment to winning.
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For those of you selecting option 4, The Athletic has a roundup of top prospects and discussion with Brian Abraham that you will want to inject directly into your veins.
https://theathletic.com/5198863/2024/01/15/red-sox-rookie-development-marcelo-mayer/
https://theathletic.com/5198863/2024/01/15/red-sox-rookie-development-marcelo-mayer/
I agree that things aren't the way they used to be. Using your restaurant analogy is not a bad way to go...so many restaurants fail, and they are universally seen as an unwise business opportunity. With MLB, I think the market has gotten more competitive in the last 20 years. It used to be the Sox were mostly competing with the Yankees in terms of getting to (or through) the playoffs, and those two teams were perpetually head and shoulders above the rest of the AL, and most of MLB in payroll. Now, in addition to NY and Boston, we have a whole new tranche of teams with deeper pockets who suddenly are also competing for all the top free agents. Teams like San Diego, Philly, the Cubs, the Giants, Texas, Houston, Toronto, and a few more are now seemingly "in" on a lot of top dollar free agents, where previously the competition was more limited. This has also had the effect of driving contracts even higher. It's a more level playing field for the Sox, and it is that much harder to separate yourself from your opponents. Now there a bunch of good restaurants, and prices are going up all over town.
To me, the last few years of free agency has raised the risk teams take when signing the top players. I just don't think teams are going to be able to stay competitive making mistakes like SD made with Bogaerts. Maybe the contracts the Dodgers gave Ohtani and YY will make sense from a business perspective, but I have real questions whether that will translate into success on the field. And the Glasnow contract seems like total insanity. If I'm a Dodgers fan, they better bring a title home in the next 2-3 years, because they are likely going to paying for a world of past performance at that point. It may work out for them, but it also has the potential to be disastrous, especially if either of those pitchers get (or remain) injured.
I still have faith in this ownership. The 4 titles they've won buys them a lot of slack with me. I've mentioned before that we know that one skill John Henry possesses is an ability to read markets better than most others. I might have carmine colored glasses on, but I think he is still shrewd, sees that the market has changed (and not in a way that preserves the advantage the Sox had), and realizes the Sox need to be much more deliberate than they used to be. There are some teams currently that seem to be subscribing to the idea that big money free agent contracts can lead them to the promised land, and they are making that avenue for success more expensive and difficult for everyone else. Time will tell, but sitting back a bit to see how these new market forces play out might be a wise strategy. John Henry didn't just get lucky making all his money.
While we disagree on some other things, I'm with you on this. I think most are.
That said, they're all smart in isolation, and make very specific sense given the team.
Plus, there's still plenty of time before spring training. (Fingers crossed over a picture of Shane Victorino, and all that.)
I know you can't force the players to take contracts, but - to me at least - I'd be singing a much different tune about the Giolito acquisition if the Red Sox had given him 5yrs/$125m/$25m AAV (I think a younger version of Sonny Gray is a pretty reasonable comp, which is where I'm getting the numbers).
If we had signed that deal, and traded Sale for Grissom, I'd be incredibly happy with the off-season. Mostly because I wanted them to identify and acquire just one MLB starting pitcher that they believe in for 3+ seasons. I didn't really care which one (though I had my choices).
Thanks for posting that article @chrisfont9, appreciated.
As someone that is firmly in the "they're going nowhere (in 2024 or 2025) camp, so develop the kids" I also just want to clarify my own stance on this. I don't think the farm system is all that special (I'd put it 16th, like MLB.com) and outside of Bello as a top half of the rotation starter and Crawford (as an SP3/4/5 type), I think the pitching long term is absolutely horrendous.
Between Houck, Winckowski, Whitlock, Criswell, Murphy and whatever else we want to call battling for rotation spots, I think the most likely / optimistic scenario is that you get three good bullpen pitchers out of those, so lets see which ones they are (my guess though, is Houck and Whitlock are the only two).
From Rafaela, Duran, Abreu, Valdez, Meidroth and Yorke, I think you get one legitimate MLB regular with a ton of defensive value (Rafaela), another fringey starter that would be better in a small market team but whatever, another decent bench piece and the rest that are pretty much somewhere between "last man on the bench / AAAA"
The point is, they need to play against MLB competition to figure out which is which, so I'd rather do that than watch Reyes, O'Neill or Refsnyder none of which are a) good enough to make a notable difference in terms of the projections of the 2024 team and b) won't be here in 2025+, so what's the point of playing them.
Devil's in the details. If they go 84-78 and miss out on the playoffs on the strength of great seasons from FA-to-be like Tyler O'Neil, Nick Pivetta, and Kenley Jansen, that would be worse than 78-84 with breakout seasons from Vaughn Grissom and Wilyer Abreu, but derailed by injuries/underperformance from the aforementioned trio.
Didn't I tell you to get out of my head once already?
I want to buy this post dinner. Or something.
I think this might be the place for this thought, but MLB Network is doing their Top 10 for each position right now and I have not seen a Red Sox player yet (I don’t think they’ve done third base). It just seems depressing that they are so mid all over the diamond.
edit: However, I voted for Option 3, like many I am between 3 and 4.
edit: However, I voted for Option 3, like many I am between 3 and 4.
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Those things have turned into engagement bait.
Its gotten so bad you have JJ cooper calling them out on thise lists
View: https://twitter.com/jjcoop36/status/1747808675991794168?s=46
View: https://twitter.com/jjcoop36/status/1747810669049569748?s=46
View: https://twitter.com/mlbnetwork/status/1745265528149581936?s=46
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At least make the playoffs, I'm not getting any younger and seems sad that they are milking the cow in order to some day make the playoffs. There is no reason why they can't develop players and buy a few players that are already developed. I don't want Breslow to be Bloom 2.
I want exciting late-season baseball when the weather is cool at night and I can listen by the firepit to an engaged Uncle Joe. It'll be disappointing if the exciting September doesn't lead to October games, but the September '21 run of 7 straight wins, losing 5 of 6, then winning the last 3 really tight games is what its all about for me.
This is where I am at. Just give me a team that is interesting to watch all season. In 4 out of the last 5 years we have not had that.
Not 'good with it' - it's frustrating, but I'm standing with most of my weight on 3, with a foot and leg draped over 4 as well. I don't have high hopes for 2024, other than seeing some sign of forward progress, dirty uniforms, more transparency and commitment to improve from ownership. My FENSOX1 license plate and fading dirty water ink on my calf aren't going anywhere (possibly like this team over the next couple of seasons)...
I'm looking for competition and quality baseball this season, though I'm not optimistic.
The Bloom experience was shaped (for me) significantly by watching bad baseball highlighted (lowlighted?) by at least one position on the field operating at historically bad performance. Whether it was JBJ's bat or Kike's glove or pre Casas first base this has been disgusting and I would have though embarrassing for a 'big market team'. No analysis here of base running, but that looked horrible too.
Having people field positions for which they spent their career's training, a departure from traditional Sox planning, will help this I assume.
Just couldn't get there on 5 so went with 4. Maybe they'll surprise, but I think the team is barreling toward another terrible summah.
There are posts in here talking about winning 88 to 90 games and competing for the playoffs. I think that’s about where I am at, but that’s not what we were led to believe two years ago. This goalpost shifting has to stop.
If they aren’t at least 84-78 in 2024, Cora should be fired. He should’ve been fired after two straight losing seasons and the team completely quitting end of last year, but I can see why they held off. Too much change at once, as we are about to see with the Patriots.
If they aren’t at least 84-78 in 2024, Cora should be fired. He should’ve been fired after two straight losing seasons and the team completely quitting end of last year, but I can see why they held off. Too much change at once, as we are about to see with the Patriots.
