Shields did not give himself the nickname and he has had it since he was in the minors. Channel your disdain somewhere else
I completely agree with this. As nice as it would be to have a legitimate ace in the SP1 slot, there's something to be said for a well-balanced rotation of established veterans with the young arms we have coming up through the system.foulkehampshire said:
I have no issue with that rotation whatsoever (besides a lack of LHP).
Samardzjia is closer to Lester than one would think, and has better stuff. Groundball pitcher, premium velocity, awesome splitter.
Shields is a workhorse.
McCarthy is good, I like his control. Also generates a good amount of groundballs, Health risk. I'd rather a LHP in his spot, albeit. Not really much on the market. Liriano or Anderson? Meh.
Kelly has upside. Great velocity, generates weak contact. Like to see better control and/or K's.
Buchholz is an enigma. If he's your fifth starter you're probably going to do alright.
I had heard his mother gave it to him in little league or some such.swingin val said:Shields did not give himself the nickname and he has had it since he was in the minors. Channel your disdain somewhere else
67WasBest said:
Deal kids for Smardzija and Doolittle
Yes, and the Sox have the depth to give Beane what he desires. Doolittle is Miller minus $6M in cost, He's worth paying out young talent because what he offers fits precisely with what they need.curly2 said:
Doolittle is a dominant lefty signed to a cheap deal for four years and with two reasonable options. The A's can demand a TON for him, epsecially in a deal with Samardzija.
Ignoring the fact that Doolittle probably isn't on the block for a minute, the opposite is completely correct. In a situation where you have to choose between giving up real talented pre-arb players and money, the Sox should choose money. It's what allowed them to build and keep such a strong farm system.67WasBest said:Yes, and the Sox have the depth to give Beane what he desires. Doolittle is Miller minus $6M in cost, He's worth paying out young talent because what he offers fits precisely with what they need.
I'm 100% with you to spend money instead of talent whenever possible. I fear that may not be possible however.
Ignoring the fact that Doolittle probably isn't on the block for a minute, the opposite is completely correct. In a situation where you have to choose between giving up real talented pre-arb players and money, the Sox should choose money. It's what allowed them to build and keep such a strong farm system.
Excuse me for getting cranky but can't we please keep this thread for starting pitching trade discussions? There's a perfectly good thread for discussing the bullpen.67WasBest said:I would include none of Betts, Bogaerts, or Swihart, and I would also exclude Owens and Rodriguez. I think Beane wants volume as much as he wants quality, as was the case last time he blew it up I would start the deal with Margot and see if it can come together from there.. Naming any package begets ridicule either way, so I'll pass on that exercise, but I do believe they could assemble a package to get this done.
I'm 100% with you to spend money instead of talent whenever possible. I fear that may not be possible however.
If there were a player available to fill that role, that fits into the long term financial model, then I agree. Miller fits the profile of the need, but if the rumors of the Dodgers and Yankees entering his market are accurate, I assume his cost will not fit the model beyond 2015. Thus why I turned my attention to identifying a replacement option for Miller. I saw Doolittle named in someone's tweet yesterday and we're talking about Billy Beane, so everyone has a price.
soxhop411 said:“@MLBRosterMoves: The @Braves do not tender 2015 contracts to RHPs Kris Medlen, Brandon Beachy and Gus Schlosser; they are now free agents.”
Not "trading" but I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on Medlen
I'd definitely be interested. He's still somewhat young and it wasn't long ago that he was a very good starting pitcher in this league.soxhop411 said:@MLBRosterMoves: The @Braves do not tender 2015 contracts to RHPs Kris Medlen, Brandon Beachy and Gus Schlosser; they are now free agents.
Not "trading" but I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on Medlen
Concur. Actually starting to like this better than going for 7/$154. I think the run expectations for the Sox may be around 800 to 850 this season which would support foulke's rotation just fine.Yaz4Ever said:I completely agree with this. As nice as it would be to have a legitimate ace in the SP1 slot, there's something to be said for a well-balanced rotation of established veterans with the young arms we have coming up through the system.
The ball is in Lester's court, imho. Adding a Zimmerman, Sale, Cueto, Hamels type would only make us that much better but foulke's rotation gives us a fighting shot especially with the offense we project to have this season.
Marrero, Holt, Nava would not come close to getting you Shark alone, let alone him and Doollttle. It will take a negotiating coup by Ben to avoid including Owens and EdRod in any Shark deal. Doolittle in the deal probably puts Devers or Margot on the table, plus one of the AAAA pitchers (Ranaudo, Webster etc). Even that is not enough.jimbobim said:Couple of reports today suggesting Sox and A's are continuing to talk Shark with A's ( Olney mentioned Marrero as an obvious centerpiece)
Who says no to this deal first ?
A's get
Marrero
B.Holt
Nava
Red Sox
Shark
Doolittle
Red Sox get an elite bullpen piece and Shark who they can extend or turn into a draft pick. A's get controllable dirt cheap Nava and Holt who really fit into their obsession with platoons and Holt could theoretically play short if they want to give Marrero more time at AAA. Red Sox avoid giving 4 years and a bunch of millions to Miller and get insurance if Lester doesn't return and they have to trade more of their SP prospects for another high quality piece like Hamels Latos Cashner Ross etc.....
We're not talking about dealing a top 10 prospect in MLB for Shark, but he's good enough that a year of him is going to cost a lot more than your proposed deal for the pair.jimbobim said:Beane will never trade Shark if he insists at being compensated at the level of prospect he paid. The Russell deal will haunt him and I doubt he's able to get the bidding high enough for that compensation given the other SP options. But he is a genius we shall see.
I can't see BB doing this unless he simply lost his mind. He's got a lot of young arms but that would simply be suicide. To the best of my knowledge BB is not throwing this season away. You got to offer him Owens, DRLR, Marrero, Rijo, Margot & Ramos. The trade would have to retool the A's for the next couple seasons.jimbobim said:Couple of reports today suggesting Sox and A's are continuing to talk Shark with A's ( Olney mentioned Marrero as an obvious centerpiece)
Who says no to this deal first ?
A's get
Marrero
B.Holt
Nava
Red Sox
Shark
Doolittle
Red Sox get an elite bullpen piece and Shark who they can extend or turn into a draft pick. A's get controllable dirt cheap Nava and Holt who really fit into their obsession with platoons and Holt could theoretically play short if they want to give Marrero more time at AAA. Red Sox avoid giving 4 years and a bunch of millions to Miller and get insurance if Lester doesn't return and they have to trade more of their SP prospects for another high quality piece like Hamels Latos Cashner Ross etc.....
EDIT
relevant consideration that may necessitate a Workman/Webster addition to the above package is Doolittle's insane contract worth 10.5 mill over 5. Let's not forget Donaldson was pretty cheap as well for how good he was.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10820428/sean-doolittle-5-year-contract-oakland-worth-105m
SoxFanForsyth said:The Sox can get Samardzija for a Marrero, Cecchini, and Brian Johnson type deal.
Based on the A's needs, the rumored price, and the types of players BB generally goes after, this is the type of deal I would anticipate it taking. Nobody knows for sure about anything, but that's my best guessThere is no Rev said:
How do you know this?
Maybe my sarcasm detector is out of whack .. You can't be serious .. All that for one year of a good SP and a relief pitcher??lxt said:I can't see BB doing this unless he simply lost his mind. He's got a lot of young arms but that would simply be suicide. To the best of my knowledge BB is not throwing this season away. You got to offer him Owens, DRLR, Marrero, Rijo, Margot & Ramos. The trade would have to retool the A's for the next couple seasons.
I agree Russell was an overpay. But the A's didn't trade Addison Russell for Samardzija just to now trade him for Marrero. They traded him in the hopes that Samardzija would help them make a run last season, and perhaps this season. KC derailed last year's run, and the Donaldson deal and Cruz signing probably signal that the odds are getting longer against a 2015 run. Circumstances have changed since Beane made the initial deal, and the fact that he offered up Russell last July is essentially meaningless in any conversation about Shark and the Red Sox today.smastroyin said:As for the A's, they will be the first to say no to that prosposed deal for Shark. Marrero may be a better SS prospect than Robertson if you are really really high on Marrero and/or don't think that Robertson will stick at SS, but I don't see any reason to believe either of those things. For 2015 alone Lowrie is a better bet than Marrero to help you win games.
I think they were obviously trying (and failing spectacularly somehow) to make a push in a vulnerable year for the league last year. The fact that the Royals were the AL rep speaks to this being a good strategy for them...they just sucked after the trades, through no fault of the actual guys acquired. But anyway, even considering that, why would the A's have traded Addison Russel for Shark just to now trade him for Deven Marrero? That would be hard to make sense of. Yes they got two high leverage months out of Shark and that is worth something, I just don't think it's worth the difference between Russel and Marrero.
I do think BB overpaid for Shark in the first place. Even saying that though, I don't think Marrero as a centerpiece gets it done. Not only is it not enough in the abstract, other teams should and will offer more. You're probably talking about Margot or Devers and Rodriguez unless you want to upgrade the centerpiece to Xander/Betts/Swihart (I am not endorsing this action). Even Owens I think needs another piece.
There's a pretty substantial difference between Sale and Hamels in terms of age, ability, and AAV (with all three strongly favoring Sale, obviously).MakMan44 said:But you're rooting for them to be used in a Sale trade.
Of course but we don't live in a world where Hamels was going to get the Phillies Betts or Xander. Like I said, just funny that he's happy the Dodgers might get Hamels because it moves the needle towards a Sale trade.OnWisc said:There's a pretty substantial difference between Sale and Hamels in terms of age, ability, and AAV (with all three strongly favoring Sale, obviously).
A package that's a massive overpay for Hamels could be a massive underpay for Sale.
We'll have to see if it's official (and if Amaro kicks in $$) but Joc Pederson looks like the only worthwhile piece. I've been arguing people have been creating shitty trade offers left and right around here but it's not like Amaro fleeced the Dodgers here. Still a stupid deal on the Dodger's end, but whatever.BigMike said:Wait, wasn't Amaro insane, and going to be forced to take a bunch of low ceiling, blocked prospects from our system for Hammels.
never underestimate the value of a number 1 stater
For the same reason, Beane won't be taking a deal for Samardzija with Marrero as the key component. They won't get a guy as good as Rusell (how could they), but they will get at least one legit Stud in the deal.
In terms of the Sele "rumor" . Maybe, I guess if CWS are exceptionally high on Swihart or Owens then it might happen. If I were running the White Sox I hold out for Betts
Chris Cotillo goes big and so many teenagers want to follow in his steps.MakMan44 said:Apparently the Dodgers are giving up Urias too.
Because Jared Carrabis floats ideas with backing all the time?SoxFanForsyth said:Ok so this is Jared Carrabis. He's a writer for Barstool, specifically the Red Sox, as I am sure most are aware. He is the one who had mentioned previously that the Sox were in on Sale. Forgive me for the lengthy post, I just want to be thorough on this.
Well, he seems to believe the Sox are out on Lester because they are moving forward on a different target. That target? Well here you go.
https://twitter.com/jared_carrabis/status/539999323833241600
https://twitter.com/jared_carrabis/status/540000650902659076
https://twitter.com/jared_carrabis/status/540002105738919936
So it sounds like perhaps the Sox have shifted their thinking toward Sale. I haven't known Carrabis to float ideas out that had no backing, either, so I believe him when he discusses this.
As for the package to get Sale?
https://twitter.com/jared_carrabis/status/539982277246484481
https://twitter.com/jared_carrabis/status/539997451114278912
https://twitter.com/jared_carrabis/status/539982277246484481SoxFanForsyth said:
I don't get this line of thinking on Sale. Yes he has a higher ceiling than Hamels but he also has a much greater chance of breaking down. Are people forgetting his injury issue last season? Not to mention his delivery screams future TJ candidate. I'll be in the minority here but I want nothing to do with Sale.SoxFanForsyth said:No no no no no. Not both and not either. I said I would be ok with Betts going if it netted us Sale because he's elite.
Tyrone Biggums said:I don't get this line of thinking on Sale. Yes he has a higher ceiling than Hamels but he also has a much greater chance of breaking down. Are people forgetting his injury issue last season? Not to mention his delivery screams future TJ candidate. I'll be in the minority here but I want nothing to do with Sale.
TigerBlood said:
Its not just that he has a higher ceiling, its that he comes at less than half the cost for the same amount of time.
You are very right about the elbow injury scare last season, and a TJ recovery potentially chewing up ~ a season and a half sounds really depressing. Imagine watching Swihart, Owens, and Marrero's first seasons in the bigs from afar while Sale sits on our bench with a cast on.
I agree although I actually think Swihart has a chance to be the best of the bunch even if he doesn't reach that Posey ceiling he's probably the best catching prospect since Weiters.ivanvamp said:
Yep. That's the danger.
But imagine none of them really becoming MLB regulars while Sale competes for Cy Young awards the next five years, at half the cost of Jon Lester.
Tyrone Biggums said:I agree although I actually think Swihart has a chance to be the best of the bunch even if he doesn't reach that Posey ceiling he's probably the best catching prospect since Weiters.
Sale it's not a question of IF but when will he need TJ
OnWisc said:I agree Russell was an overpay. But the A's didn't trade Addison Russell for Samardzija just to now trade him for Marrero. They traded him in the hopes that Samardzija would help them make a run last season, and perhaps this season. KC derailed last year's run, and the Donaldson deal and Cruz signing probably signal that the odds are getting longer against a 2015 run. Circumstances have changed since Beane made the initial deal, and the fact that he offered up Russell last July is essentially meaningless in any conversation about Shark and the Red Sox today.
I agree with you that other teams could offer more than the hypothetical packages offered here (and in many cases, they almost certainly would), but Addison Russell has no place in any discussion, beyond the A's maybe targeting a SS prospect. He's got about as much bearing on the value of Samardzija as Josh Donaldson does on the value of Rich Harden.
If you're going to use the fact that Beane was willing to trade Russell for Samardzija as some indication of Shark's current value, go ask Theo if he'd be open to dealing Russell for Samardzija right now.