This is now: BB and the direction of the Patriots

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I love onwenu (go blue!) and am not blind to the fact that they have some useful pieces. But almost every team in the nfl has a weapon on offense better than anyone on the pats. Just throw a dart…

bills - diggs
Jets - Wilson
Texans - dell
Jags - etienne
Raiders - adams
Chiefs - kelce
Cardinals - brown
Seattle - metcalf

I’m just literally thinking of random teams. Most of these teams have a second guy better than anyone on the pats

I am not saying the Pats would have a great offense with a Dalton at QB. I am saying that they have the very worst offense any of us have ever seen because Mac is the QB, and that concerns about weapons would be vastly minimized if they had an NFL-level QB taking snaps.

Mac is killing them, in every possible way. Get him gone and magically their team would look infinitely better. I guarantee it. At the very least a Dalton wins them the WAS, IND, and NYG games, all of which were lost because Mac fucking sucked.

 

[twibnotes]

I am not saying the Pats would have a great offense with a Dalton at QB. I am saying that they have the very worst offense any of us have ever seen because Mac is the QB, and that concerns about weapons would be vastly minimized if they had an NFL-level QB taking snaps.

Mac is killing them, in every possible way. Get him gone and magically their team would look infinitely better. I guarantee it. At the very least a Dalton wins them the WAS, IND, and NYG games, all of which were lost because Mac fucking sucked.

I agree with you here

for the record, I would draft or acquire weapons LAST after figuring out qb and improving the line. I just raise the weapons issue in the context that I don’t trust bb to drive our rebuild, especially on offense. He’s whiffed on an astonishing number of picks and free agents on offense - it’s almost incredible how bad he’s been

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

I agree with you here

for the record, I would draft or acquire weapons LAST after figuring out qb and improving the line. I just raise the weapons issue in the context that I don’t trust bb to drive our rebuild, especially on offense. He’s whiffed on an astonishing number of picks and free agents on offense - it’s almost incredible how bad he’s been

They’d probably have 3-4 more wins had they just done the opposite of what Bill has done the last few years.

 

[heavyde050]

I think the Pats 100% need a new QB, but an upgrade on the skill players would also be nice. It is tough to really discern which guys should stay because Mac/Zappe have been a dumpster fire. I am not high on Parker and Thornton, but I like Pop, Boutte, Bourne, and the RBs. Henry is solid.

 

[BigJimEd]

After last season, you had to see what Mac could do with a more seasoned OC. Mac just doesn’t have the arm strength to be a viable NFL quarterback. That one fact combined with a crap attitude and unbelievably poor decision making = shit.

Yeah. I have no problem with their decision. Mac just couldn't step up.
I'd prefer they bottom out anyway rather than try to scrape a few extra wins but not be a real contender with a mediocre vet.

 

[Seels]

Dowling was a consensus top 40 prospect who ended up opening day starter. It’s also a bit odd to suggest the 2011 Patriots were “loaded” at CB. That secondary consisted of McCourty regressing badly at CB, Bodden’s career derailed by injury, Arrington miscast as a boundary corner and a veritable who’s who of waiver wire, practice squad and street free agent types including such studs as Antwuan Molden, Sterling Moore and Nate Jones.

Dowling didn’t work out but that team badly needed another boundary corner and Dowling looked like he was on his way to being at least a useful piece if not good starter before destroying his hip in week 2.

Dowling had a reputation of being a significant injury risk before he was drafted, and all they really needed was some stability back there. He played about 100 total snaps for the team. They had all day to plan around him as he was the first pick of day 2. There are only like 5 guys between rounds 2 and 5 who played less games than Dowling.

I didn't say the 2011 Pats were loaded at CB, the Joejuan Williams team was. The 2011 Pats needed various things, and sure, CB was near the top of the list. But picking a guy known for being injury prone and then losing him to injury is absurd.

 

[mcpickl]

Slot in rarely and unlikely. Does it then make sense to punt those picks altogether? Look at any good team in the league and they have someone who was 4th-7th round pick who's now a pro-bowler. Stefon Diggs. Jason Kelce. L'Jarius Sneed. Talanoa Hufonga. Amon Ra St. Brown And so on. Hitting on one of these players is probably the most impactful thing you can do when you build a franchise outside of finding a good QB. Hell, even finding a Pop Douglas in the sixth round is extremely helpful, much more so than the marginal value of drafting a "good" kicker or a "good" punter. The likelihood of finding these players is small, but the upside of doing is tremendous.

We of all fan bases should know this, considering we drafted Tom Brady, Julian Edelman, and many other important players in those rounds. We traded essentially the same pick that Chad Ryland was (112) for Randy Moss (110). Should we expect this kind of outcome every time? No, of course not, but you can't achieve those outcomes if you don't even bother trying.

It is kind of stupid to waste those high upside lottery ticket picks on kickers and punters - particularly when you have holes all over the roster - and it's worth complaining about.

It really isn't.

Complaining about hitting, or not hitting, on picks that are longshots to begin with is silly to me.

Go look through any draft in history in the 4th rounds and later, and you'll see a bunch of guys who made zero impact. Just like the likelihood would be if the Pats picked a player at a different position with the Ryland or Baringer pick.

If it upsets you so much, just pretend the Pats took Demario Douglas in the 4th and Ryland in the 6th. The team is in the exact same spot but you used your beloved, extremely valuable 4th round pick on a receiver.

 

[ManicCompression]

Complaining about hitting, or not hitting, on picks that are longshots to begin with is silly to me.

It being silly to you does not make you right. Those longshots do actually hit every once in a while, so you want to use as many of them as possible to increase the likelihood of hitting on one of them. Drafting Ryland in the sixth is still stupid. If you're going to miss, at least miss trying to do something useful.

 

[mcpickl]

Agree

The number one issue I have with BB is that he continues to surround himself with relatives and people he’s worked with before. Maybe he’s earned that right, but that’s no way to foster thought leadership and healthy debate. When you look at their poor personnel decisions with that in mind, it’s hard not to want to clean house. They haven’t had fresh perspectives in the building for way too long

Of all the Felger stuff that has permeated the fan base, this one is the weirdest to me.

Take a look through the coaching directories of every team, and you'll see former colleagues, and for older coaches kids/relatives, everywhere.

Take the Chiefs, they're considered a pretty good coaching staff, yeah?

Offensive coordinator,, first job in the league with the Eagles under Andy Reid
Defensive coordinator, first job in the league with the Eagles under Andy Reid
Special Teams coordinator,, first job in the league with the Eagles under Andy Reid
Passing game coordinator, first job in the league with the Eagles under Andy Reid.
TE coach, first job in the league with the Eagles under Andy Reid
Outside LB coach, first job in the league on same Green Bay Packers coaching staff as Andy Reid
Asst Strength and Conditioning coach, son of Andy Reid.
Former LB coach, son of Andy Reid dismissed after a tragic DUI
There are another half dozen guys that have only been NFL coaches in KC

I hope whoever the Felger of KC is, I really hope every town doesn't have their Felger, they aren't complaining about it all the time.

It's not at all unusual that head coaches would hire guys they've worked with before. I think it would be weird if they didn't.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Slot in rarely and unlikely. Does it then make sense to punt those picks altogether? Look at any good team in the league and they have someone who was 4th-7th round pick who's now a pro-bowler. Stefon Diggs. Jason Kelce. L'Jarius Sneed. Talanoa Hufonga. Amon Ra St. Brown And so on. Hitting on one of these players is probably the most impactful thing you can do when you build a franchise outside of finding a good QB. Hell, even finding a Pop Douglas in the sixth round is extremely helpful, much more so than the marginal value of drafting a "good" kicker or a "good" punter. The likelihood of finding these players is small, but the upside of doing is tremendous.

We of all fan bases should know this, considering we drafted Tom Brady, Julian Edelman, and many other important players in those rounds. We traded essentially the same pick that Chad Ryland was (112) for Randy Moss (110). Should we expect this kind of outcome every time? No, of course not, but you can't achieve those outcomes if you don't even bother trying.

It is kind of stupid to waste those high upside lottery ticket picks on kickers and punters - particularly when you have holes all over the roster - and it's worth complaining about.

Most good teams draft kickers (and/or punters) in the 4th or 5th, because it's how you get good guys at that position and save money. Ryland's entire 4 year contract is lower than what a medicore vet gets paid (Gano for the Giants for example is having a worse year than him and makes 5 times as much), cost difference on punters is more like 3 times (but also punters tend to stay with teams longer). And kickers/punters hit at a MUCH higher rate than other players in those rounds. The difference between a Ryland and a Gano in cap hit is Jabril Peppers.

 

[mcpickl]

It being silly to you does not make you right. Those longshots do actually hit every once in a while, so you want to use as many of them as possible to increase the likelihood of hitting on one of them. Drafting Ryland in the sixth is still stupid. If you're going to miss, at least miss trying to do something useful.

Yeah man, I'm aware of how opinions work.

And hitting on a kicker/punter/ST guy in late rounds is useful. Having a guy on a rookie deal at any spot is useful.

It's just not as fantasy friendly as hitting on a WR.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Most good teams draft kickers (and/or punters) in the 4th or 5th, because it's how you get good guys at that position and save money. Ryland's entire 4 year contract is lower than what a medicore vet gets paid (Gano for the Giants for example is having a worse year than him and makes 5 times as much), cost difference on punters is more like 3 times (but also punters tend to stay with teams longer). And kickers/punters hit at a MUCH higher rate than other players in those rounds. The difference between a Ryland and a Gano in cap hit is Jabril Peppers.

In theory, it makes sense. The problem, again, is with player evaluation. Ryland is terrible .

 

[twibnotes]

Of all the Felger stuff that has permeated the fan base, this one is the weirdest to me.

Take a look through the coaching directories of every team, and you'll see former colleagues, and for older coaches kids/relatives, everywhere.

Take the Chiefs, they're considered a pretty good coaching staff, yeah?

Offensive coordinator,, first job in the league with the Eagles under Andy Reid
Defensive coordinator, first job in the league with the Eagles under Andy Reid
Special Teams coordinator,, first job in the league with the Eagles under Andy Reid
Passing game coordinator, first job in the league with the Eagles under Andy Reid.
TE coach, first job in the league with the Eagles under Andy Reid
Outside LB coach, first job in the league on same Green Bay Packers coaching staff as Andy Reid
Asst Strength and Conditioning coach, son of Andy Reid.
Former LB coach, son of Andy Reid dismissed after a tragic DUI
There are another half dozen guys that have only been NFL coaches in KC

I hope whoever the Felger of KC is, I really hope every town doesn't have their Felger, they aren't complaining about it all the time.

It's not at all unusual that head coaches would hire guys they've worked with before. I think it would be weird if they didn't.

BB literally said he didn’t want to work with people he didn’t like

Context matters - when you’ve missed on a mountain of offense draft picks and signings, you need to bring in some new perspectives

what they’re doing clearly isn’t working

 

[Cellar-Door]

In theory, it makes sense. The problem, again, is with player evaluation. Ryland is terrible .

Is he? Or is he just having a rough rookie year? Kicking is tough, sometimes you hit a bad streak. The Patriots have done a good job in the past in evaluating special teams, and kickers are notoriously swingy. He's shown he has the leg for it, this season is going nowhere, they'll bring a vet into camp to compete next year and see how he does. Plenty of teams made the mistake of giving up on a rookie kicker too early and saw that guy have a long career while they cycled vets who weren't much better (see Nugent). Especially given how much snaps and holds effect kicks and I can't properly evaluate what he's getting from those guys.

 

[mcpickl]

BB literally said he didn’t want to work with people he didn’t like

Context matters - when you’ve missed on a mountain of offense draft picks and signings, you need to bring in some new perspectives

what they’re doing clearly isn’t working

I doubt there is a coach alive that thinks, man I'd love to coach with some guys I don't like.

It's the same as everywhere else.

 

[mcpickl]

Is he? Or is he just having a rough rookie year? Kicking is tough, sometimes you hit a bad streak. The Patriots have done a good job in the past in evaluating special teams, and kickers are notoriously swingy. He's shown he has the leg for it, this season is going nowhere, they'll bring a vet into camp to compete next year and see how he does. Plenty of teams made the mistake of giving up on a rookie kicker too early and saw that guy have a long career while they cycled vets who weren't much better (see Nugent). Especially given how much snaps and holds effect kicks and I can't properly evaluate what he's getting from those guys.

Yeah, I don't think we really know much yet.

Gostkowski didn't exactly set the world on fire as a rookie.

 

[BaseballJones]

I still remember 1990 when the Pats scored 181 points in 16 games (11.3 per game), at a time when teams averaged 20.1 points per game. The 2023 Pats have scored 148 points through 11 games (13.5 per game), at a time when teams are averaging 21.7 points per game.

1990 - Pats 11.3, NFL 20.1 = Pats -8.8 to the league average
2023 - Pats 13.5, NFL 21.7 = Pats -8.2 to the league average

When I thought it would be impossible for the Pats' offense to be as bad as 1990, this team has found a way to get pretty close.

The 1970 Pats, by the way: 10.6 ppg, NFL 19.3 ppg = Pats -8.7 to the league average. Also really bad.

 

[Cellar-Door]

BB literally said he didn’t want to work with people he didn’t like

Context matters - when you’ve missed on a mountain of offense draft picks and signings, you need to bring in some new perspectives

what they’re doing clearly isn’t working

Okay, this stupid line has been repeated a thousand times here in defense of dumb arguments.
1. he didn't literally say this, he ALLEGEDLY said he "only wants to coach guys he likes"
2. The source was notorious bullshit artist Urban Meyer, via an Ohio State fan blog.
3. Nobody knows the context

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Okay, this stupid line has been repeated a thousand times here in defense of dumb arguments.
1. he didn't literally say this, he ALLEGEDLY said he "only wants to coach guys he likes"
2. The source was notorious bullshit artist Urban Meyer, via an Ohio State fan blog.
3. Nobody knows the context

Also:

4. People sometimes say shit that doesn’t actually reflect their actual philosophy - which tends to be multi faceted - or behavior.

This idea the league is rife with ‘Team of Rivals’ style coaching staffs comprised of no nepo hires or coaches with similar philosophies or backgrounds consistently surprises me.

 

[Marciano490]

You see, because they had a couple of games that went down to the end, this team is actually a competitive squad. You know they are competitive when they lose to a truly bad Giants team with a 3rd string QB who has no receivers.

That's usually what competitive teams do.

It was a competitive loss to the Giants though. They were in it the whole game.

 

[Justthetippett]

I still remember 1990 when the Pats scored 181 points in 16 games (11.3 per game), at a time when teams averaged 20.1 points per game. The 2023 Pats have scored 148 points through 11 games (13.5 per game), at a time when teams are averaging 21.7 points per game.

1990 - Pats 11.3, NFL 20.1 = Pats -8.8 to the league average
2023 - Pats 13.5, NFL 21.7 = Pats -8.2 to the league average

When I thought it would be impossible for the Pats' offense to be as bad as 1990, this team has found a way to get pretty close.

The 1970 Pats, by the way: 10.6 ppg, NFL 19.3 ppg = Pats -8.7 to the league average. Also really bad.

Really never thought we'd see it with a BB team. Those 7 or 8 win seasons with middling offensive production seemed about as bad as it would get. This team is completely lost on offense.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Yeah, I don't think we really know much yet.

Gostkowski didn't exactly set the world on fire as a rookie.

So looking up some former Patriots guys.

Gost... hit 77% of his FGs as a rookie, very low TB% (different rules though) missed 1 XP. That was probably his worst year as a pro.
VInatieri.. hit 77% of his FGs as a rookie, 93% XP, low TB% (again different rules) 2nd worst year as a pro (well 3rd if you count his final age 47 season).
Nick Folk hit 84% as a rookie, all hit XPs, terrible at kickoffs... worst year was year 3, hit 68% of FGs and got cut... then had a long and great career after that.
Ryland ... 67% of FGs, hit all of his XPs, very good kickoffs.

 

[ManicCompression]

It's just not as fantasy friendly as hitting on a WR.

So I use a 2 WRs, a Center, and a Safety as examples of late round hits because they're the first that come to mind, and you're saying I'm just focused on fantasy. Okay. BB could use these late rounders on an RB or an RG or an LB and I wouldn't care. Anyone who could be a useful starter would be nice.

Most good teams draft kickers (and/or punters) in the 4th or 5th, because it's how you get good guys at that position and save money.

This doesn't scan because of two reasons:

1. The Patriots are not a good team. It makes more sense when you're stacked all over the roster like the 49ers, it does not make sense when you have as little talent as the Patriots. You need to hit on some Fred Warners and Hufongas and Purdys to have the roster flexibility to draft a Jake Moody.

2. Whatever the difference is between Ryland and Gano's contract, it is less than the difference between a 4-7th round rookie contract at any other position and the Graham Gano-level player at that position.

 

[8slim]

I still remember 1990 when the Pats scored 181 points in 16 games (11.3 per game), at a time when teams averaged 20.1 points per game. The 2023 Pats have scored 148 points through 11 games (13.5 per game), at a time when teams are averaging 21.7 points per game.

1990 - Pats 11.3, NFL 20.1 = Pats -8.8 to the league average
2023 - Pats 13.5, NFL 21.7 = Pats -8.2 to the league average

When I thought it would be impossible for the Pats' offense to be as bad as 1990, this team has found a way to get pretty close.

The 1970 Pats, by the way: 10.6 ppg, NFL 19.3 ppg = Pats -8.7 to the league average. Also really bad.

This offense is so eerily similar to 1990. Bruising RBs without breakaway speed (Rham/Zeke, John Stephens), a veteran WR who’s productive but not explosive (Bourne, Irving Fryar), a decent pass-catching TE (Henry, Marv Cook), and, of course, horrific QBs (Mac/Zappe, Hodson/Wilson/Grogan).

At least this edition has a good D.

The Pats also disastrously traded their #1 pick after that horrid season. Which is why I’m not inclined to repeat that mistake in this coming draft.

 

[jbupstate]

Really never thought we'd see it with a BB team. Those 7 or 8 win seasons with middling offensive production seemed about as bad as it would get. This team is completely lost on offense.

The offense wasn’t great today because Mac threw 2 absolutely terrible interceptions. Run game was good. The problem is Mac has such a poor arm that defenses just don’t fear anything 20+ yards.

For the life of me, I’ve never seen so many lob passes. No zip whatsoever. It’s like every pass play is a red zone pass. It would make sense if he had a shoulder problem but the arm was a know issue. But it’s the decision making that’s inexcusable.

 

[Euclis20]

The offense wasn’t great today because Mac threw 2 absolutely terrible interceptions. Run game was good. The problem is Mac has such a poor arm that defenses just don’t fear anything 20+ yards.

For the life of me, I’ve never seen so many lob passes. No zip whatsoever. It’s like every pass play is a red zone pass. It would make sense if he had a shoulder problem but the arm was a know issue. But it’s the decision making that’s inexcusable.

My favorite quote from today's announcing crew (I think it was Vilma), after another Mac Jones bullet, paraphrasing:

That was an oddly thrown ball, almost like his arm was hit

That could be the title of the Mac Jones documentary. 75% of his passes look like this. He has poor arm strength and terrible footwork, just a murderously bad combination.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Okay, this stupid line has been repeated a thousand times here in defense of dumb arguments.
1. he didn't literally say this, he ALLEGEDLY said he "only wants to coach guys he likes"
2. The source was notorious bullshit artist Urban Meyer, via an Ohio State fan blog.
3. Nobody knows the context

It’s also not clear what kind of people Belichick likes anyways, right? His choice of company has been a bit questionable at times.

 

[E5 Yaz]

My mistake. I don't think Dungy is in the booth; Garrett just sounds a bit like him

 

[Seels]

I've tried to make it as clear as possible. They've been highly competitive in almost all their games this year. That's being competitive. Being non-competitive is being blown out regularly. That's not happening to them. Arizona, who also has just 2 wins, has lost by 10+ points 5 times this year. NE just 3. I already documented Carolina (a 1-win team). The 3-win Giants have lost by 10+ points 6 times. The 3-win Bears have lost by 10+ points 4 times.

So yes, they're a losing team and losses are what matters (or wins, conversely). But the claim that the Pats haven't been "competitive" is factually false. It's not a difficult point to grasp.

Man I agree with this completely. They're 2-9 but you can see glimpses. Make no mistake their offense and special teams sucks. But they aren't like 45 roster spots that are open. I could easily see this team being playoff bound next year if they fix QB / WR and address special teams. That's a big if, obviously. But this team was competitive in all but two games.

 

[lexrageorge]

This offense is so eerily similar to 1990. Bruising RBs without breakaway speed (Rham/Zeke, John Stephens), a veteran WR who’s productive but not explosive (Bourne, Irving Fryar), a decent pass-catching TE (Henry, Marv Cook), and, of course, horrific QBs (Mac/Zappe, Hodson/Wilson/Grogan).

At least this edition has a good D.

The Pats also disastrously traded their #1 pick after that horrid season. Which is why I’m not inclined to repeat that mistake in this coming draft.

The trade was a disaster, but really the entire first round of that draft was putrid. The #1 pick the Pats traded away, Russell Maryland, was good. But most fans would consider a single Pro Bowl appearance to be a huge disappointment for the #1 overall pick. The rest of the first round wasn't much better, aside from Herman Moore and one player who did at least play a key role in the Pats 2nd Super Bowl victory.

 

[Justthetippett]

The offense wasn’t great today because Mac threw 2 absolutely terrible interceptions. Run game was good. The problem is Mac has such a poor arm that defenses just don’t fear anything 20+ yards.

For the life of me, I’ve never seen so many lob passes. No zip whatsoever. It’s like every pass play is a red zone pass. It would make sense if he had a shoulder problem but the arm was a know issue. But it’s the decision making that’s inexcusable.

Agree on all the Mac points. My point about the overall offense was related to what teams need to do well in 2023 to be competitive. Running game is nice to have, but to win close games at the end, teams need to be able to throw the ball, create space, pick up those third and medium to longs, etc. I think teams will be happy to let Rham gain a few yards here or there knowing there's no chance Mac will do anything when they load up to stop the run in the scoring areas of the field.

 

[lexrageorge]

It’s also not clear what kind of people Belichick likes anyways, right? His choice of company has been a bit questionable at times.

Huh? Not a fan of Jon Bon Jovi's musical talent?

Probably every single NFL coach has acquaintances that some of us here would find, shall I say, less than inspiring.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

It’s interesting to me that Vrabel seems to be using Folk on kick offs. I think this was Bill’s primary motivation in getting rid of Folk — he didn’t like him for kicking off and when Bailey got hurt we gave up some returns on Folk kickoffs.

Looking at game logs, Folk is consistently kicking to the 2 or 3. I think that is as far as he can kick it. But the Titans seem to be getting away with it. I can’t seem to find touchback numbers, but expect Folk is pretty low.

I think stuff like that really matters to Bill, but man, when you look at Folk’s numbers, the Ryland pick has been a triple whammy. He has been bad, Folk has been great, and we used a pick for a position you don’t need to draft.

 

[Cellar-Door]

So I use a 2 WRs, a Center, and a Safety as examples of late round hits because they're the first that come to mind, and you're saying I'm just focused on fantasy. Okay. BB could use these late rounders on an RB or an RG or an LB and I wouldn't care. Anyone who could be a useful starter would be nice.



This doesn't scan because of two reasons:

1. The Patriots are not a good team. It makes more sense when you're stacked all over the roster like the 49ers, it does not make sense when you have as little talent as the Patriots. You need to hit on some Fred Warners and Hufongas and Purdys to have the roster flexibility to draft a Jake Moody.

2. Whatever the difference is between Ryland and Gano's contract, it is less than the difference between a 4-7th round rookie contract at any other position and the Graham Gano-level player at that position.

1. By good I meant well run not "good record last year"
2. The likelihood of a kicker hitting is WAY higher in those rounds, and you should consider that. You take a kicker in 4th there is a very good likelihood that for at least 1 year he is your #1 kicker, the odds that a 4th does that at other positions is low.

Also... the Patriots do also take shots at other positions... and hit. Douglas looks like a legit WR in the 6th this year, they had 3 4th rounders, used 2 of them on OL shots, Onwenwu was a 6th. They take plenty of shots. Using 2 of those many opportunities to add players who are historically far more likely to stick long term, at key posiitons of need is smart.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Huh? Not a fan of Jon Bon Jovi's musical talent?

Probably every single NFL coach has acquaintances that some of us here would find, shall I say, less than inspiring.

Removed

 

[Cellar-Door]

It’s interesting to me that Vrabel seems to be using Folk on kick offs. I think this was Bill’s primary motivation in getting rid of Folk — he didn’t like him for kicking off and when Bailey got hurt we gave up some returns on Folk kickoffs.

Looking at game logs, Folk is consistently kicking to the 2 or 3. I think that is as far as he can kick it. But the Titans seem to be getting away with it. I can’t seem to find touchback numbers, but expect Folk is pretty low.

I think stuff like that really matters to Bill, but man, when you look at Folk’s numbers, the Ryland pick has been a triple whammy. He has been bad, Folk has been great, and we used a pick for a position you don’t need to draft.

30th in TB%, 31st in KO average.

I think The Ryland pick is fine. He's struggled some of FGs (he's been good on kickoffs and XP), but it was a long-term need position, they saved money, and they were in a spot where they could develop a kicker.

 

[lexrageorge]

...snip....

Probably should have qualified my question better. Let's keep this thread sane.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Probably should have qualified my question better. Let's keep this thread sane.

Agreed. I removed the image of that loathsome
Individual.

 

[j-man]

honesty once u lost your first 2 games the steram went out

weirdey had u had a vet qb u are 6-6 7-5 dation or the guy on indy

 

[Old Fart Tree]

Maybe. But they both are terrible. And who chose them?

I truly don't understand the NFL salary system, but there HAD TO be some veteran they could have found who would have at least been league average, right?

no, that’s not how averages work. If that was the case the teams with bottom 15 QBs would just go get average ones.

 

[Pat Spillane]

The main problem I see is BB's smartest guy in the room when it comes to drafting. He hit a few in the early days like Logan Mankins but recently nothing at all is hitting with his "smart" picks. Cole Strange, Tyquan Thornton, Cardona, Jordan Richards, Cyrus Jones, Duke Dawson, N'keal Harry. Most of those went well over their expected draft position and ahead of better players in their position. Most years the Wr receiver core are pretty poor

Free agents have been pretty poor too.


Maybe he can stay as a coach but I would want someone else in charge of personnel. He is killing himself out there with his roster construction

 

[rslm]

Watching 5th quarter talking heads FIX THE QB! (i just screamed that in my house. Scared the cat…)

Is he? I’m not sure we can know without Zappe getting full starters reps during the week. Maybe the coaching staff knows, but us couch coaches, I doubt it.

Mac might be a better practice QB, but as bad as Zappe is, I thought he looked closer to an NFL quarterback yesterday than Mac has looked in weeks. And to be clear - I think Zappe's ceiling is emergency backup or practice squad guy.

 

[JimD]

At this point, I will be shocked if the Krafts don't move on from Belichick by this offseason. I hope that they are preforming their due diligence behind the scenes to have a GM ready to put in place to support Jerod Mayo along with contingencies to shore up the coaching staff (have to presume that the Belichick boys move on with their dad, and BOB may not want to hang around either).

It's pretty clear that it has meant a great deal to Robert Kraft that the Patriots were not only a historically dynastic team but a model organization as well - I'm certain that the very idea of 'The Patriots Way' had huge value to him. Well, Bill Belichick's machinations of the past half decade have not only resulted in a hard-to-fathom return to the dark days of early 90's Patriots football but have turned The Patriot Way into a local embarrassment and a national laughingstock. For 25 years, Kraft's Patriots had a stud QB at the helm and now it has devolved to this, with BB seemingly having no idea how to respond next other than to play out the string in increasingly pathetic fashion. With fan frustration and bewilderment risking turning into apathy, and a majority of the team's fans signaling that they are ready to make a clean break, I just don't see how RKK can have faith that Belichick is still the one to return the franchise to contention. Not after the slow-motion car crash of the past two years.

 

[thestardawg]

Let’s call a spade a spade. They fucking suck.

You may want to rethink your choice of langauge here.

 

[tims4wins]

At this point, I will be shocked if the Krafts don't move on from Belichick by this offseason. I hope that they are preforming their due diligence behind the scenes to have a GM ready to put in place to support Jerod Mayo along with contingencies to shore up the coaching staff (have to presume that the Belichick boys move on with their dad, and BOB may not want to hang around either).

It's pretty clear that it has meant a great deal to Robert Kraft that the Patriots were not only a historically dynastic team but a model organization as well - I'm certain that the very idea of 'The Patriots Way' had huge value to him. Well, Bill Belichick's machinations of the past half decade have not only resulted in a hard-to-fathom return to the dark days of early 90's Patriots football but have turned The Patriot Way into a local embarrassment and a national laughingstock. For 25 years, Kraft's Patriots had a stud QB at the helm and now it has devolved to this, with BB seemingly having no idea how to respond next other than to play out the string in increasingly pathetic fashion. With fan frustration and bewilderment risking turning into apathy, and a majority of the team's fans signaling that they are ready to make a clean break, I just don't see how RKK can have faith that Belichick is still the one to return the franchise to contention. Not after the slow-motion car crash of the past two years.

Meanwhile, I know the Steelers offense sucks and their fans are frustrated and they haven't won a playoff game since 2016, but they're churning out another winning season. They clearly have a more sustainable operating model.

 

[4 6 3 DP]

They could have a couple more wins if they'd simply held on to Nick Folk- not a guarantee they win but the 2023 version of Scott Sisson hasn't helped matters

 

[Justthetippett]

Meanwhile, I know the Steelers offense sucks and their fans are frustrated and they haven't won a playoff game since 2016, but they're churning out another winning season. They clearly have a more sustainable operating model.

They won some of the close, shitty games the Pats lost. They are basically in NFL limbo. Hopefully they stay there indefinitely.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

You may want to rethink your choice of langauge here.

Believe this expression actually goes back to Plutarch and while you could argue that in 2023 it’s going to be viewed through a lens of American racist slurs, it has nothing to do with that historically.

 

[cshea]

My apologies. Wasn't aware, will educate myself. Deleted.

 

[InstaFace]

They are 2-9. Where is the coaching genius showing up this year? It’s time to move on. This is an awful roster and the architect of it should not be given more money and high picks to squander. Thanks for the memories, but the past is the past. Bring in Vrabel and Caserio if there’s a desire to have some connection to the Patriots way.

Could you point me to the coaching genius who never had a bad year?

Paul Brown went 5-7 in 1958 and then 3-11 in 1968 and followed it up with a 4-9-1 season in 1969. He then went 48-36 in his final 6 seasons including 11-3 in his last one.

Bill Walsh went 3-6 in the strike-shortened 1982 season, as defending champions.

And those are just the most shimmering examples of the greatest coaches of all time. Mere hall of famers like Parcells or Chuck Noll ate shit every now and then.

Continuity has a lot of value to a franchise, and overreactions and short-termism is the eternal plague of sports front offices. Someone with Belichick's track record should get more rope than anyone in NFL history - as the likes of Landry and Shula and co used to get (and who didn't have to deal with the salary cap).