This is now: BB and the direction of the Patriots
- Thread starter DennyDoyle'sBoil
- Start date
- Status
Mac stinks and most of the O stinks. It’s both, and it’s been both for three months.
I listened to the radio call for the first half, and Zo spent some of it killing Mac, and some of it killing the lousy, lazy routes run by Parker, JuJu, Thornton and Giesicki.
The OL is mediocre on its best day. And the RBs get tough yardage but have zero breakaway speed.
It’s an incredibly limited offense.
I saw a clip on Insta this morning of a Shane Vereen catch and score. That guy had more game speed than literally anyone currently on our offensive roster. And we once had multiple guys like that. The O is bad all around.
I listened to the radio call for the first half, and Zo spent some of it killing Mac, and some of it killing the lousy, lazy routes run by Parker, JuJu, Thornton and Giesicki.
The OL is mediocre on its best day. And the RBs get tough yardage but have zero breakaway speed.
It’s an incredibly limited offense.
I saw a clip on Insta this morning of a Shane Vereen catch and score. That guy had more game speed than literally anyone currently on our offensive roster. And we once had multiple guys like that. The O is bad all around.
Watching 5th quarter talking heads FIX THE QB! (i just screamed that in my house. Scared the cat…)
Is he? I’m not sure we can know without Zappe getting full starters reps during the week. Maybe the coaching staff knows, but us couch coaches, I doubt it.
-sigh-
I'm not "defending" them. I'm just saying they've been competitive. And they have been. They suck because in the end, they find ways to lose, no matter how close the game is. That's the sign of a losing team. They deserve to lose all these games. They haven't been "unlucky". They've lost all on their own. It's not "defending" them to point out, though, that they've been competitive. Because that's just a fact.
The point differential...that's what two historically bad losses - which still only count as one game in the standings, by the way - do. Just as, when we were talking about their #6 scoring offense during Mac's rookie year, it was emphasized over and over that that was skewed by a couple of monster games against bad teams. Works both ways.
Competitive, compared to what, though? Most NFL games are “competitive”. I guess I don’t understand the point. The team is terrible, and their point differential fully supports that.
You see, because they had a couple of games that went down to the end, this team is actually a competitive squad. You know they are competitive when they lose to a truly bad Giants team with a 3rd string QB who has no receivers.
That's usually what competitive teams do.
Zappe wasn’t worse than Mac today. He’s bad and not a long term solution but this idea that they just have to keep playing Mac because the backup may be even worse is insane to me. They’re the worst team in the league and should try other options at their worst position, QB. Goes for WR also, get Boutte back in there.
It was skewed by defensive scores more than anything. They weren't the 6th scoring offense.
Because there's not much difference between a day three pick and a UDFA.
That fans spend so much time complaining about day three picks is wild to me.
I have no idea what point you are making. The second worst team in the NFL is “competitive”? At what? Some thing other than football?
So we’re giving credit to Daboll for getting “something” out of DeVito (ignoring the abysmal games DeVito had against the Jets and Cowboys) but ignoring Daniel Jones being even worse than Mac Jones this year?
In the immortal words of Grady Little: They're entertaining a lot of people out there
They are 2-9 and deserve to be 2-9. Who cares if they were competitive in some games? Spreads in NFL games are rarely double digits, most games are close. When you play 11 games and lose 9 of them and have a negative triple digit scoring differential you suck.
No they’re not competitive or finding ways to lose, they don’t score enough points to win almost ever. They’ve scored 20+ points twice and are 1-1. They’re awful.
Zappe at least led a TD drive today and would have led the game-tying drive if Ryland didn't choke on a chip shot.
Mac has done none of those things recently.
I've tried to make it as clear as possible. They've been highly competitive in almost all their games this year. That's being competitive. Being non-competitive is being blown out regularly. That's not happening to them. Arizona, who also has just 2 wins, has lost by 10+ points 5 times this year. NE just 3. I already documented Carolina (a 1-win team). The 3-win Giants have lost by 10+ points 6 times. The 3-win Bears have lost by 10+ points 4 times.
So yes, they're a losing team and losses are what matters (or wins, conversely). But the claim that the Pats haven't been "competitive" is factually false. It's not a difficult point to grasp.
It’s not “giving credit” as much as it is calling out the lame excuse of not having a good QB (a problem of BB’s own making). NYG lost their crappy QB and still beat the Pats.
what i mean is if u hire the wrong guy like denver did after 2016 u look up 1 day and it's 6 years later and 4 cohes later u get more and more depatrte
I'm not sure Zappe wouldn't be better than Mac in game if he had has many 1st team reps in practice as Mac probably gets. (I'm assuming Zappe hasn't but don't really know.)
Let me be very clear: I don’t care at all about Daboll or Daniel Jones.
Today, noted stiff Tommy DeVito outplayed both Pats QBs. That’s all.
Dowling was a consensus top 40 prospect who ended up opening day starter. It’s also a bit odd to suggest the 2011 Patriots were “loaded” at CB. That secondary consisted of McCourty regressing badly at CB, Bodden’s career derailed by injury, Arrington miscast as a boundary corner and a veritable who’s who of waiver wire, practice squad and street free agent types including such studs as Antwuan Molden, Sterling Moore and Nate Jones.
Dowling didn’t work out but that team badly needed another boundary corner and Dowling looked like he was on his way to being at least a useful piece if not good starter before destroying his hip in week 2.
They just lost two consecutive games in which they gave up 10 fucking points in each. They are exactly as bad as their record. Maybe even worse.
After last season, you had to see what Mac could do with a more seasoned OC. Mac just doesn’t have the arm strength to be a viable NFL quarterback. That one fact combined with a crap attitude and unbelievably poor decision making = shit.
Right now he’s the worst QB in football. Zack Wilson’s arm and legs would be a huge upgrade.
The difference between 3 (Pats), 4 (Bears) or 5 (Cards) double digit losses doesn’t seem like a meaningful difference to me. Plus you are comparing them to the other really bad teams out there, one of whom just beat them today. I don’t know why you think this matters or what it proves? They suck. They are horrible.
I'd love that. There is no defending them as they're 2-9, but I'm just trying to be factual here.
This.
If they do manage a top 2 pick, do we really trust Belichick to put quality pieces and offensive coaching around the kid? Or is he going to just keep nickel & diming skill position players and recycling the same coaches from his tree that run what is looking like an antiquated and highly predictable offense?
Belichick will be 72 next year, he’s not changing. And even if he did, what’s he going to coach this team for 2/3 more years, then they have to start over anyway? Better to just cut the cord on him at the end of this season. Get a new, modern vision in the building.
This.
And, given the pats inept offense, teams may play a conservative approach on offense knowing they don’t need to score much. To say they’ve been “competitive” is meaningless - they suck.
You're right. Day three picks (rounds 4-7) never go on to become anything, and they aren't traded for impact players. Why do fans care? These marginal differences in value have nothing to do with winning and it's impossible for them to change the fate of a franchise.
I mean... Bill O'Brien is a good OC, he was a good OC here and he was a good OC in college and a good OC in HOU, he worked wonders in developing Deshaun Watson. His offense is not the issue. He may not be a sexy name, but he's a good OC.
Agree
The number one issue I have with BB is that he continues to surround himself with relatives and people he’s worked with before. Maybe he’s earned that right, but that’s no way to foster thought leadership and healthy debate. When you look at their poor personnel decisions with that in mind, it’s hard not to want to clean house. They haven’t had fresh perspectives in the building for way too long
What are we even doing here?
If we had one of these four guys instead of Mac/Zappe, you'd be right in here complaining about them instead.
I get you're trying to be sarcastic, but if you replaced your word choices of never and impossible, with rarely and unlikely, you'd have accidentally just made a true statement.
Lines and weapons are very dependent on the QB using them and Mac has been the very worst QB in the league. He's had time. He's had receivers. And he can't make the plays.
He has no receivers outside of a rookie in Pop Douglas. Everyone else blows. JuJu cashed, Parker blows and Miami laughed when they traded him, Thornton is a bust.
That’s not an answer and you know it.
I totally agree with you about how awful Mac is and how it impacts everything. But you’re ignoring the fact that the line and weapons are almost definitely below average. The weapons are WELL below avg.
I literally can’t think of a team whose best weapon is worse than ours. Maybe Carolina
He was also a good HC in Houston, just a terrible GM. He's a good football mind.
Mac literally cannot throw the ball ten yards downfield.
He has receivers. He simply can't get the ball to them. Look at his passing chart from today, literally not a single ball thrown past 10 yards except for one INT.
Bad teams do lose their fair share of close games, and usually have a couple of blowout losses to boot. So both the point differential and record point to the Patriots being a bad team.
Now, assessing the roster going forward, there are some good players on defense (a couple of injuries have hurt here). But the offense has almost nobody, except for possibly Rham and likely Douglas, that is better than a JAG*; many players on the offense are worse than that. It isn't just the QB; it's also the WRs, TEs, and OL. Just that the QB is terrible and so it's hard to objectively judge the rest of the squad, but it isn't particularly good even if there was a vastly overrated Kirk Cousins taking snaps.
EDIT: Just to qualify this a bit: Onwenu is indeed better than a JAG. But Trent Brown, who was good at RT earlier his career, is at best league average at LT, and he's not one to get better next season when he'll be 31. Andrews is on the decline side of his career. We'll see how Strange grades out today. But without Bourne (and now Douglas for at least a couple of weeks if not longer, as this will be his 2nd concussion this season), the WRs are just not good, Hunter Henry is not someone that defenses game plan for (aka, a JAG), and Gesicki is just bad.
Last edited:
Strongly disagree. I think the line and weapons would be ok with a league-average QB. Not great, but not bad either. Onwenu at RT has made an enormous difference to the OL. And watching the games, WRs are open. There are plays to be made. Mac can't make them.
It's 100% on Mac. All of it. The entirety of why this team is shitty this season is because Mac Jones is their QB. On this hill I will die forever.
I don’t think anyone disagrees that Mac is a disaster. Some of us are just thinking that even if we get a stud qb (huge if), we still have a ton of work to do personnel wise bc BB’s drafts and FA moves on offense have been awful
That's fine, I just disagree with the extent of the problems.
Andy Dalton would have this team in the playoff hunt. THAT's how bad Mac is.
yeah, BOB isn't necessarily the guy I would pick if I could get anyone to run my team's offense, but of the guys available he was one of the ones with the best track record
I love onwenu (go blue!) and am not blind to the fact that they have some useful pieces. But almost every team in the nfl has a weapon on offense better than anyone on the pats. Just throw a dart…
bills - diggs
Jets - Wilson
Texans - dell
Jags - etienne
Raiders - adams
Chiefs - kelce
Cardinals - brown
Seattle - metcalf
I’m just literally thinking of random teams. Most of these teams have a second guy better than anyone on the pats
I think the line when healthy is actually pretty average. To me that (and Mac's mental collapse) has been the biggest difference from last year to this that took us from a mediocre team to a bad one.
Brown and Onwenwu are both above average, Andrews and Strange are around average... the other tackle was a concern, but McDermott was only a bit below average last year... this year everyone was/is hurt and it snowballed.
The pass-catchers are definitely an issue, but they should have the resources to address that, and honestly... weapons are slightly overrated, a healthy and competent O-line is more important overall, and a QB is far more important.
Slot in rarely and unlikely. Does it then make sense to punt those picks altogether? Look at any good team in the league and they have someone who was 4th-7th round pick who's now a pro-bowler. Stefon Diggs. Jason Kelce. L'Jarius Sneed. Talanoa Hufonga. Amon Ra St. Brown And so on. Hitting on one of these players is probably the most impactful thing you can do when you build a franchise outside of finding a good QB. Hell, even finding a Pop Douglas in the sixth round is extremely helpful, much more so than the marginal value of drafting a "good" kicker or a "good" punter. The likelihood of finding these players is small, but the upside of doing is tremendous.
We of all fan bases should know this, considering we drafted Tom Brady, Julian Edelman, and many other important players in those rounds. We traded essentially the same pick that Chad Ryland was (112) for Randy Moss (110). Should we expect this kind of outcome every time? No, of course not, but you can't achieve those outcomes if you don't even bother trying.
It is kind of stupid to waste those high upside lottery ticket picks on kickers and punters - particularly when you have holes all over the roster - and it's worth complaining about.
- Status