Again, this isn't the point. The point is that there's a glut of centers in the league at the moment, and the days of teams getting giant returns because they have a spare tall guy have vanished. The Sixers can hold out for their dream, and then match whatever offer Noel gets next summer, but all they've done in that scenario is permabench one of their other tall guys. There comes a point where it's time to move on, and the Sixers are obviously there.Forget it, don't know why I even bother engage with you. There's no need in the league for defense minded centers and the entire league has one. Like Bobby Portis, who played 14% of his minutes at the 5, and put up a solid 108.0 defensive rating there.
This is precisely the point. The days of running a kiddie asylum are over, the management understands that part of helping young teams mature into winning squads involves having vets there to help them through. If they're going for Simmons, then having another offensive QB on the floor is an advantage, and helps Simmons by easing him into his role.One thing that may be factoring into Colangelo's thinking is that given the questions about Simmons' attitude and competitiveness - everyone on this board knows about these - it is probably helpful from a development perspective to have an upper-tier PG from whom Simmons can learn without being forced to give the ball to Simmons 30 mpg.
Again, this isn't the point. The point is that there's a glut of centers in the league at the moment, and the days of teams getting giant returns because they have a spare tall guy have vanished. The Sixers can hold out for their dream, and then match whatever offer Noel gets next summer, but all they've done in that scenario is permabench one of their other tall guys. There comes a point where it's time to move on, and the Sixers are obviously there.
Forget it, don't know why I even bother engage with you. There's no need in the league for defense minded centers and the entire league has one. Like Bobby Portis, who played 14% of his minutes at the 5, and put up a solid 108.0 defensive rating there.
So, gonna go ahead and assume that you missed previous posts where I suggested they move Okafor instead of Noel, right? This is why engaging with you is always like pulling teeth. Because when I argue that Jeff Teague would be a bad return for Noel, you decide that means that I'm advocating that the Sixers keep Noel, Okafor, and Embiid indefinitely. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. There's no nuance in any discussion with you. If somebody disagrees with part of what you say, you assume they're disagreeing with everything you've ever said. It's exhausting.Some of your "dozen teams" already had starting centers and or better centers, meaning that they would be dealing for a backup in Noel. And teams don't mortgage their future for backup centers. What you really had were 6-8 teams, some of whom are just going to sign alternatives in free agency and/or draft their tall roleplayers.
Since you obviously refused to look at the full list someone posted a link to last page, here are the highlights of the 25 and under set. Which is why the Boogieman isn't on this list.
Tristan Thompson
Karl-Anthony Towns
Enes Kanter
Andre Drummond
Anthony Davis
Derrick Favors
Jonas Valanciunas
Nikola Jokic
Steven Adams
Rudy Gobert
Cody Zeller
Bismack Biyombo
Clint Capela
Kristaps Porzingis
Willie Cauley-Stein
Frank Kaminsky
Myles Turner
Nerlens Noel
Meyers Leonard
Alex Len
Jahlil Okafor
Tarik Black
Lucas Nogueira
Jusuf Nurkic
Yes, there absolutely is a glut, and the Sixers have three centers, all of whom need developmental time, one PF inbound and another to be drafted. So to maintain their deathgrip on Noel they're squandering either Embiid or Okafor. There isn't room for all five guys.
Another friend is also asking, guys.We've probably covered the Noel / Teague thing, right? Everyone had established their positions, etc?
Asking for a friend.
I think they're open to moving either player because they know they don't have room for both. But, again, because of the current glut, and the direction the game is going, Okafor's value probably isn't what they hope at the moment. I've been saying this for a couple of years now. Hinkie's biggest mistake was always using the draft pick in years where there were players to be had because the available players weren't top five guys.So, gonna go ahead and assume that you missed previous posts where I suggested they move Okafor instead of Noel, right?
Does injury drive his value down to Noel-level? I mean, we're talking about a younger guy who can - when healthy - do a sort of slightly-poor-man's Chris Paul with an 18/5/6 per 36.Bledsoe for Noel is something I think Phoenix would be -thrilled- by in the long run. I'd even offer them Tyson Chandler -and- Bledsoe just so a) Philadelphia can get closer to their salary floor and b) gives Phoenix more room financially to play with while replacing Chandler with a younger version who's likely -already- better for less money.
Worth mentioning that Okafor would be under his rookie deal for two more years than Noel. A team looking to add max player(s) next summer may feel Noel would tie their hands while Okafor would still be on his rookie contract for two years longer than Noel. This "could" be a reason why a team would value Okafor higher aside from each offering a completely different skillset that in many cases would cause the value to be team dependent based on need.If Noel's trade value is lower than Okafor, then I would trade for Noel and not think twice, because he's more likely to outperform what it costs to trade for him than Okafor is. Someone who's more likely to outperforms the price paid for him is far, far more attractive as a trade target. And yeah, I'd stick by the Ben Wallace comparisions.
You know, I'm not really sure. He's been out of sight out of mind with that many injuries. Chandler struck me as a potential drag, but I was thinking they'd trade someone else to go along with Noel, because that team is entirely too young and needs a few vets to set an example. Still, thinking about it, the Sixers don't -need- another big man.Does injury drive his value down to Noel-level? I mean, we're talking about a younger guy who can - when healthy - do a sort of slightly-poor-man's Chris Paul with an 18/5/6 per 36.
Point. OTOH, I think Noel has a better chance of realizing his second contract's value than Okafor... although with the way the cap expands, is Noel's restricted contract next year a better bet than Okafor's down the road? I'm just having a harder time picturing a team that would be able to build around Okafor's skill sets, while I have an easier time picturing Noel's.Worth mentioning that Okafor would be under his rookie deal for two more years than Noel. A team looking to add max player(s) next summer may feel Noel would tie their hands while Okafor would still be on his rookie contract for two years longer than Noel. This "could" be a reason why a team would value Okafor higher aside from each offering a completely different skillset that in many cases would cause the value to be team dependent based on need.
I don't feel either player is the type anyone would build around. They each project to provide a specific potentially elite skill......teams will value them differentially based on a number of factors. Nobody is trading for Noel to build around him........just as nobody is trading for Okafor to build around him either.You know, I'm not really sure. He's been out of sight out of mind with that many injuries. Chandler struck me as a potential drag, but I was thinking they'd trade someone else to go along with Noel, because that team is entirely too young and needs a few vets to set an example. Still, thinking about it, the Sixers don't -need- another big man.
Point. OTOH, I think Noel has a better chance of realizing his second contract's value than Okafor... although with the way the cap expands, is Noel's restricted contract next year a better bet than Okafor's down the road? I'm just having a harder time picturing a team that would be able to build around Okafor's skill sets, while I have an easier time picturing Noel's.
I don't feel either player is the type anyone would build around. They each project to provide a specific potentially elite skill......teams will value them differentially based on a number of factors. Nobody is trading for Noel to build around him........just as nobody is trading for Okafor to build around him either.Point. OTOH, I think Noel has a better chance of realizing his second contract's value than Okafor... although with the way the cap expands, is Noel's restricted contract next year a better bet than Okafor's down the road? I'm just having a harder time picturing a team that would be able to build around Okafor's skill sets, while I have an easier time picturing Noel's.
It's just that center is a buyer's market at the moment unless you have an game changing player. Philly does not.Just throwing up a list of young centers is worthless for assessing the trade market for Noel/Okafor when compared to the teams who -actually- do need young centers. You'd need to actually list who's available in trade OR free agency to determine whether there's actually a market for someone -who actually is on the market-.
I think that Philly taking Tyson Chandler's contract would be the only thing that could tempt Phoenix into that trade.Bledsoe for Noel is something I think Phoenix would be -thrilled- by in the long run. I'd even offer them Tyson Chandler -and- Bledsoe just so a) Philadelphia can get closer to their salary floor and b) gives Phoenix more room financially to play with while replacing Chandler with a younger version who's likely -already- better for less money.
Saying this does not make it true. In the last 12 months, DeAndre Jordan got a max contract and two teams literally fought over him in ridiculous fashion for two weeks. Tyson Chandler got a 13 million a year deal for 4 years at age 33. Enes Kanter got a max deal. Donatas Motiejunas fetched a first round pick (but failed his physical). Greg Monroe had multiple max offers on the table last season. Omer Asik followed up his RFA overpay with an overpay on an extension. The Sacramento Kings -- who currently employ one of the league's best centers -- paid Kostos Koufos 30 million dollars AND drafted Willie Cauley-Stein with a lottery pick in the same off season.It's just that center is a buyer's market at the moment unless you have an game changing player. Philly does not.
Has there ever been a time when bigs didn't get paid more than what a casual fan would expect? Going back to Jon Koncak, Jim McIlvane, Jerome James, Raef LaFrentz, Mark Blount, Brenda Haywood, Erick Dampier, and on and on and on.Saying this does not make it true. In the last 12 months, DeAndre Jordan got a max contract and two teams literally fought over him in ridiculous fashion for two weeks. Tyson Chandler got a 13 million a year deal for 4 years at age 33. Enes Kanter got a max deal. Donatas Motiejunas fetched a first round pick (but failed his physical). Greg Monroe had multiple max offers on the table last season. Omer Asik followed up his RFA overpay with an overpay on an extension. The Sacramento Kings -- who currently employ one of the league's best centers -- paid Kostos Koufos 30 million dollars AND drafted Willie Cauley-Stein with a lottery pick in the same off season.
Last season Timofey Mozgov fetched two first rounders.
This summer, Al Horford (at age 30) and Hassan Whiteside will get max deals. Bismack Biyombo will get 15 million a year this offseason.
None of those things are indicators of a buyers market.
There may be a universe where Nerlens Noel is as good as DeAndre Jordan, but it isn't this one. No, he won't be nearly as good as DAJ next year, then you need to deal with the free agency. No, Philadelphia doesn't have a game changing center and center still remains a buyer's market because you can acquire centers for only money.Advantage: Grin
Your serve, nighthob!
I've been trying to end this silly conversation, but it doesn't work. We need a local mod to intervene and split off all the boring center posts out.Yawn. Even I'm fed up with this discussion. I wonder how it is that Nighthob has so many posts and is still a lurker? It must be the high quality.
Teague played through knee and ankle issues all season and is getting them fixed up this summer. I doubt this affects his value at all moving forward.If true, you'll get Embiid and like it, Atlanta!
... Partly because his value isn't great as-is.Teague played through knee and ankle issues all season and is getting them fixed up this summer. I doubt this affects his value at all moving forward.
...but...but...yes, it is!... Partly because his value isn't great as-is.
I remember having him at #2 on my Celtics' draft board way back when. I had Ollie Miller #1, because despite the weight I thought that he would make it as a long term part of the NBA. It's sad to think that I'm outliving these guys.RIP Sixers Asst Coach Sean Rooks, 46
No other info as of yet. Very sad and seemingly unexpected.
Edit: Heart attack in Philadelphia restaurant after having met with Jackson and Hornacek for Knicks asst job.
It's apparently time for a periodic reminder of how trade value and leverage work.Y'all are talking past each other. Noel's value is dependent on the context in which it is being discussed. For example, Noel isn't going to fetch full trade value because teams think that the 76ers have to deal. Also, if Colangelo wants to win - or at least be somewhat respectable - now, Noel has a lot less value; however, it's true that if management is willing to go through another 20 (or less) win season again, they should keep Noel and see whether or how he grows.
One thing that may be factoring into Colangelo's thinking is that given the questions about Simmons' attitude and competitiveness - everyone on this board knows about these - it is probably helpful from a development perspective to have an upper-tier PG from whom Simmons can learn without being forced to give the ball to Simmons 30 mpg.
Chad Ford said:I think that the Sixers and I both believed that the most valuable asset they had other than the No. 1 pick was [Jahlil] Okafor. I think that now, several weeks of gauging that interest around the league has led them to the conclusion that he might not be as valuable as they once thought. I think they went into the process asking the question, 'Would we trade for the No. 3 pick, or the No. 4 pick or the No. 5 pick for a guy like Okafor, would that be good value for us?' And I think they've walked out of that scenario saying, 'We don't think we can actually get that for Okafor right now.'
I think that's less an indictment on Okafor than it is a realization that center has become a little bit like a running back in the NFL... Especially the sort of player Okafor is, which is a back to the basket, below the rim, not particularly athletic, not going to stretch the floor, doesn't necessarily play defense big man. That just doesn't fit the schemes that most NBA coaches are after, including I think the 76ers. So I think there was a major miscalculation on the part of Sam Hinkie when he selected him at [three].
How good would the 76ers be if they had the #1 pick last year and the #3 pick this year? Such a fine line . . . .The Lakers late switch to Russell really hurt, the team would be in a different looking place with Russell (warts and all) at PG
I've been saying this for a while now, but Okafor arrived a decade late. He isn't nearly the athlete that Boogie is and he just doesn't have the sort of impact he would have in the mid aughts when people were dying for guys that bang bodies with Shaq.It's way too early to gauge the market for Okafor and Noel this early as no team is giving the Sixers anything more than their best lowball offer. Neither is a franchise changer and teams know that Colangelo wants to move one or both pretty badly eliminating his leverage. I'm sure things will heat up some by next Thursday.
Korkmaz is apparently staying in Turkey for a year. I really like this draft for the Sixers. I'm with you on Luwawu, and I really like Korkmaz- his game is so advanced for one of the youngest guys in the draft. Obviously his shot is his big selling point, but he moves really well without the ball, sees the court well, and is a good passer. He's a couple of years away, but I think his upside is very high for a guy who ended up going #26 in a weak draft.I wasn't looking forward to Colangelo and this draft, given the rumours coming out it seemed he'd act from desperation and make a crap trade.
He didn't he took the right number 1, he got awesome value at 24 with Luwawu - he was one of my top 10 and a great fit as a potential 3&D wing with great athleticism.
Korkmaz is a nice pick at 26 too, leave him overseas for a year or two he's stil super young and needs to get stronger, but a great shooter potentially off the bench.
I would have loved McCaw over Korkmaz for my perfect picks, but that's splitting hairs, Korkmaz is a good pick. They also likely know him some from following Saric.
In short, nothing dumb, didn't overthink the first pick and got one steal and one good value later on, both good fits for the roster too. Really good stuff.
Now he needs to figure out what to do at the point this year, and if Okafor/ Noel needs to go to get one or if he holds on to them all and awaits an opportunity.
As he settled into his seat, Hinkie reached into his bag. He didn't pull out a laptop with Excel files listing players' effective field goal percentages or turnover rates but rather a stack of booklets, each dedicated to a different player in one of the day's four NCAA tournament games and filled with scouting reports and interviews.
During nearly nine hours of live hoops on this chilly Thursday in Dunkin' Donuts Center, the conversation focused on basketball minutiae. From a few rows behind the scorer's table, Hinkie demonstrated the way one player's thumb disrupted the rotation on his shot. He noted how another cupped the ball in traffic and finished by spinning it from tough angles, an indicator that he could convert around the rim in the NBA. Bad body language, separation gained on dribble moves, the size of players' hands -- these were what got Hinkie excited on that day, not actuarial tables.
He talked culture and psychology -- two qualities, conventional wisdom held, that he ignored in favor of metrics. He noted that the Sixers were so heavily invested in player development that they taught players how to communicate with referees (among the lessons: Don't call them "ref"; address them by name), going so far as to fasten posters displaying every official's name and photo on the doors of the bathroom stalls at their practice facility. "What else are you doing in there?" Hinkie laughed.