So Duran, and Masa in the outfield. We need a better option to fill that out. Having Rob Refsnyder to fill out the outfield isn't sounding great. Lourdes Gurriel Jr. ?
The Dugie Down Bronx: Red Sox trade Alex Verdugo to Yankees
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
He has a very strong arm (Savant has him in the 97th percentile), but not necessarily that accurate. Usually takes pretty good routes & shows pretty good instincts, but I don't think he's athletic enough to really be a ++ RFer. Could certainly be ok out there, though.
I posted on this upthread (#212). The limited evidence we have suggests yes.
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/the-dugie-down-bronx-red-sox-trade-alex-verdugo-to-yankees.41218/post-5872782
I get that you're upset over moving what was the best defensive OF on the team, but there's no reason to expect Verdugo can't be replaced and that Rafaela and Duran can't get their opportunities to shine. And FWIW you really don't seem sold on Duran's ability to become part of the best defensive OF in baseball.
Hard to feel too good about drawing conclusions from DRS as compared to OAA, especially over such a SSS.
I would be surprised if he's an abjectly bad corner outfielder, though.
That’s a bit too small a sample. I was more interested in minor league data, though I’m not sure that exists.
If feel fine with him in LF, of course. But “corner Ofer” has two entirely different meanings in Fenway, depending on whether you’re talking about left or right. As far as I can tell, we now have one guy (Rafaela) who’d clearly be okay in Fenway’s RF, but I had seen him as a better fit for CF.
I meant as opposed to CF where I don't think he really has the range for it to work out great. Obviously if we have a better defender available & Abreu could play LF instead of RF that's going to improve your overall defense.
But the biggest issue with a Duran/Rafaela/Abreu alignment is more likely to be the offense than the defense.
I found Duran's defense more puzzling last season than in '22. In 22 he was just flat out bad, but for a time last season he seemed to be getting better jumps and taking better routes in CF then it mostly seemed to escape him again. From mid June to mid August he played 27 games in LF in addition to his time in CF. From memory he seemed a bit better there, but not great. To be fair, toward the end of that stretch he was dealing with some personal issues.
Before last season would anyone have considered Verdugo such an important defensive player?
Guys can get better, things can change, we can get new players. This is the first salvo.
I just think that the Sox having a historically bad defense last year was a big issue and it’s something that needs to be improved if they are really going to compete next year.
This move very much is not a step in that direction. But yeah, let’s see what happens. I personally dread having to watch Duran man CF again, but I suppose that’s not a certainty yet..
My feeling is that better infield D would go a long way to making the overall defensive situation feel a lot better. That group wore the biggest clownshoes all year.
I REALLY want Rafaela to be a good enough bat because all of the feedback on his D is that he is a prodigious talent (at multiple positions).
Of course, a lot of this depends on things like Story staying healthy and Devers, a guy we cannot really move, getting better. Would hate to make big upgrades to the pitching staff only to have an infield of butchers ruin it.
… defensive metrics can have single year aberrations that aren’t necessarily indicative of an improvement in true talent.
It's a very small sample size but Rafaela didn't have good range factors with Boston in 2023.
As you said, it's a very small sample size, practically not even worth mentioning. One of Cedanne's AA coaches also coached Mookie, and said Cedanne is a better outfielder at the same time in their careers, much better.
Personally I'd love to see what Cedanne can do at 2nd with a healthy Story at SS, having Reyes and Valdez as options there for some time in RF is a decent option as well considering how Reyes was playing in back half of the year. All that to say if this is even remotely true, than we should have a solid OF with Abreu and Refsnyder able to play the corners reasonably well. And hey, there's always Bobby Dalbec...
Here's a few minutes of Richard Fitts highlights:
View: https://twitter.com/tylermilliken_/status/1734337874445865446
Analytics people seem to like him a lot more than scouts but he is at least 1 pitch away from being a starter long-term. Fastball/slider combo is nice, though. Good pitch shape.
View: https://twitter.com/tylermilliken_/status/1734337874445865446
Analytics people seem to like him a lot more than scouts but he is at least 1 pitch away from being a starter long-term. Fastball/slider combo is nice, though. Good pitch shape.
I believe a lot of this was speculated upon, but in case people didn't see it elsewhere, Sox Prospects updated their rankings to include Fitts.
They have him as the third best SP prospect (behind Perales and Gonzalez, ahead of Monegro), and he's rated 11th in the system overall. ETA of late 2024. Pretty solid for one season of Verdugo.
They have him as the third best SP prospect (behind Perales and Gonzalez, ahead of Monegro), and he's rated 11th in the system overall. ETA of late 2024. Pretty solid for one season of Verdugo.
I'm going to lock this thread. If people want to discuss this further please start a thread in V & N and I'll move posts there.
I broke them out for you and started a discussion in V&N here.
Please keep the commentary in this thread about the trade itself.
View: https://twitter.com/ChrisCotillo/status/1737950078197752057
I am positive that Cora gave you many chances ... You do not get benched after being late to the Ball park only once..... that happens after someone who habitually is late or breaks rules
I am positive that Cora gave you many chances ... You do not get benched after being late to the Ball park only once..... that happens after someone who habitually is late or breaks rules
Also, part of what Cora said that day (paraphrasing) "he wasn't at all ready to play"
Did Dugie show up hungover or otherwise compromised or was Cora exaggerating?
(Apologies if this was covered already)
After this I can't think of a better place to have traded Verdugo than to the Yankees. Except maybe back to the Dodgers.
Regrettable but unsurprising word choice but it does make you wonder if there is some bad blood here, that will be amplified with Verdugo now playing for the rival. Clearly, Cora wasn’t a big fan. Wonder what the players think.
Paps will be on weei later today to elaborate
View: https://twitter.com/bradfo/status/1738262869911777726?s=46
So the Sox sign Papelbon to league minor league deal at minimum, promote him only for the Yankees series and don't require him to show up the rest of the year? Actually while I love the role he played for this franchise, I've always found the guy to be a bit of a horse's ass and really don't care for him on the pre or post games shows. I have a feeling Jim Rice feels similarly.
I hate this drama. It’s so unnecessary. I liked Dugie he was fun to root for. He’s obviously passionate, I don’t know exactly what happened last season to get him at odds so much but it’s turned ugly and neither side looks good.
As someone who dislikes Cora a lot, it’s just coming off as petty. Not everything needs a response. I’m probably alone on this. I can understand Dugie not being happy to be traded and from a fan perspective, the Sox just continue to spiral and feel like no one is steering the ship from the top down.
As someone who dislikes Cora a lot, it’s just coming off as petty. Not everything needs a response. I’m probably alone on this. I can understand Dugie not being happy to be traded and from a fan perspective, the Sox just continue to spiral and feel like no one is steering the ship from the top down.
It’s interesting that Paps, despite not ending with the Sox and almost half of his career not here - says “we” when talking about the Sox.
What did Cora do wrong here? Verdugo was the one who opened his mouth, and Papelbon doesn’t even work for the team.
I mean, we're talking about the clear cut best player in the game, Alex Verdugo. Cora should have let him show up whenever he wanted in whatever condition that such a talent wanted to play in. The nerve to try and motivate such a proven, accomplished player...
There is a long list of former Red Sox who would be characterized like this and I still fully embrace them coming to Fenway and calling the Red Sox "we".
Fred Lynn, Carlton Fisk, Dennis Eckersley, Roger Clemens, Wade Boggs, Ellis Burks, and so on.
And, folks like Kevin Millar, Shane Victorino, Jonny Gomes, who were here for a short while and I would have zero problem if they said "we".
It is certainly better than when fans use "we"...I find that cringey.
Maybe you should just say you don't like Papelbon.
Most of the "Cora is a genius" narrative floundered with his actual lousy game choices and the resulting record. It retrenched into "Cora is a genius because he builds a great clubhouse and can reach players and motivate them."
But the team quit on Cora last year down the stretch and Verdugo is Exhibit A for him "not reaching players," given that Cora snipped and sniped and "tried to motivate him" and totally failed.
To be fair, not everyone can be reached. But a true genius, an actual 1%er in the field, could probably have managed it.
Cora does not have to be a true genius to be a competent average-ish manager. But let's not pretend he's anything other than what he is.
***
And also, who gives a fuck about what Papelbon thinks? He's clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Or the neighborhood.
Given that Verdugo is literally the only player that has had such an issue with Cora, I don't think it's a leap of faith to say that Verdugo is in the class of "not everyone" above. There have been players Bill Belichik has not been able to reach. Or even Terry Francona. Some of care less about what Verdugo thinks than Papelbon, which is OK.
It's almost as if I had written: to be fair, not everyone can be reached. But a true genius, an actual 1%er in the field, could probably have managed it. Cora does not have to be a true genius to be a competent average-ish manager. But let's not pretend he's anything other than what he is.
But I probably didn't.
Anyway, what do you think?
Now that I've agreed with you disagreeing with me.