Dismiss Notice
Guest, I have a big favor to ask you. We've been working very hard to establish ourselves on social media. If you like/follow our pages it would be a HUGE help to us. SoSH on Facebook and Inside the Pylon Thanks! Nip

Schilling, the Hall, and the Character Clause

Discussion in 'MLB Discussion' started by ConigliarosPotential, Dec 19, 2018.

  1. Gunfighter 09

    Gunfighter 09 wants to be caribou ken Staff Member Dope SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,710
    I'm pretty comfortable placing Schilling's case above the Hall of Famer John Smoltz, even though they are basically the exact same guy (Schilling is Smoltz's #1 career comp.)

    Schilling has more wins, more strike outs, slightly better ERA+, slightly better WHIP, and 13 more WAR than Smoltz. All of Smoltz's saves are neat, but Schilling's post season heroics in multiple World Series are much more significant than Smoltz's saves to me.

    I think the blatant cheaters like ARod, Clemens and Bonds should be in and I think a blatant asshole like Schilling should be in.
     
  2. Detts

    Detts Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,019
    I’m torn up with his post WS life, but unlike a lot of players from that era and post steroids history..,.and I do not justify any damn thing about post life...he was damn good at his peak. Schilling should be in.
     
  3. billy ashley

    billy ashley lurker

    Messages:
    920
    Lots of stuff going on in this thread.

    Before getting on my soapbox about Schilling, "thought crimes", Hall of Fame eligibility, etc. I will for the sake of brevity say that if I had a vote, I'd very likely use one of them on Schilling (depending on the candidate backlog). I think he's deserving of enshrinement. He's in the top 30 in WAR for pitchers of all time. He has a top 30 K per 9 and is 5th all time in K to walk (he'll likely improve as 3 ahead of him are current pitchers in their peak)

    He's a class A douche bag, and either a very sick or very intentionally cruel human being. Some of his defenders here are saying that he really didn't do anything outside of speaking an unpopular opinion.

    The guy regularly demeans transpeople, mocking them. 40% of trans youths attempt suicide at some point (https://www.hrc.org/blog/new-study-reveals-shocking-rates-of-attempted-suicide-among-trans-adolescen). Beyond that, Schilling has called for the lynching of journalists in a climate in which journalists are being murdered at historically significant rates (https://freedomhouse.org/blog/violence-against-journalists-transnational-enterprise).

    Does he have a right to express himself under the first amendment? Absolutely. Does that right require Hall of Fame voters recognize him for his stellar career and not punish him for for saying shit that's borderline evil? No, not at all.

    This isn't a Republican thing. There are plenty of people who are conservative and don't go out of their way to be cruel to people (though the frequency in which people act like Schilling would have me questioning my politics if I were a conservative; not sure if I'd want to be in that club).

    This isn't an oppression of unpopular thought thing. The Dixie Chicks lost their careers in their peak because they were willing to take the risk to speak out about a political cause. Ditto for Kaepernick. Schilling too is facing blow back for his advocacy for an issue. Only, history will probably think better of the former 2 than Schilling.

    I hope he gets in. I loved him as a ballplayer and I think the Hall in general is losing it's focus on recognizing greatness in baseball. But yeah, the guy's a piece of shit, and we should all endeavor to take a bathroom break when he gives his acceptance speech.
     
    #53 billy ashley, Dec 23, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
  4. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,406
    Schilling called for the launching of journalists? Really?

    Does that mean you think Barack Obama really called on his supporters to shoot Republicans (If they bring a knife, we bring a gun). Did Eric Holder really tell Democrats to physically assault Republicans (If they go low, we kick ‘em)? Did Eric Swalwell (D-CA) really call for the government to nuke gun owners?

    Or do you think maybe all 4 were exaggerating for effect, something everyone in human history has done.

    I get the outrage over someone with his megaphone retweeting hateful memes against vulnerable populations. That’s justified. The American media establishment ain’t one of those. They’re big persons predominantly from privileged backgrounds themselves with powerful platforms and benefactors at their backs and they have no reservations about dishing out thinly sourced shit against people they don’t like—which included sportswriters shitting on Curt when they could get away with it. Seems like a pretty fair fight to me on that one.
     
    #54 Plympton91, Dec 23, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
  5. Marciano490

    Marciano490 Urological Expert SoSH Member

    Messages:
    32,005
    You’re arguments are flawed for two reasons. First, Holder and Obama were using expressions that aren’t tied to actual incitements to violence anymore. Second, they get the benefit of the doubt. Schilling doesn’t.
     
  6. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,406
    On your first point, I guess James T Hodgkinson, Rene Boucher, and Farzas Fazeli didn’t get the memo about it being a euphemism.

    And your second point makes it very clear that this whole thread is just about politics.
     
  7. uncannymanny

    uncannymanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    5,357
    Surely then, there’s dozens of other threads about denying players HOF enshrinement because of their conservative politics.
     
  8. dhappy42

    dhappy42 Member

    Messages:
    4,856
    Nm - Marciano beat me to it
     
    #58 dhappy42, Dec 23, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
  9. Montana Fan

    Montana Fan Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,792
    With his abbreviated 8 year career, President Obama’s curveball would have had to be much better to get him into the hall.
     
  10. axx

    axx lurker

    Messages:
    6,000
    I honestly can't think of anything anyone would be upset about Pre-Trump except for the aforementioned 38 Studios demise, and it's a stretch to think hall voters would care.

    The Smoltz comparison doesn't really work since Schilling's time as a reliever didn't really work out.
     
  11. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,406
    I don’t think it’s a players’ politics as much as a Twitter / Facebook thing. I don’t think it’s limited to conservatives either. We’ve seen Josh Hader, the Oscars’ host, and the Heisman Trophy winner get mugged by their social media history more recently than Schilling. One consequence is that now there’s nobody willing to host the Oscars this year (last I checked). Makes you wonder if it’s all worth it.
     
  12. uncannymanny

    uncannymanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    5,357

    You were talking about this thread and how it’s politically motivated, not Twitter. What are your other examples of conservative ex players getting this type of reaction on the board for simply being conservatives?

    I’m not sure what the rest of this has to do with anything, but I’m fairly sure humanity will keep on trucking just fine if Stephen Dorff has to host the Oscars.
     
  13. Rovin Romine

    Rovin Romine Johnny Rico Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    8,795
    So what good character has Schilling displayed - the kind that makes him an ambassador for the game, the kind that might push him over the edge from being a marginal candidate to being in the hall?
     
  14. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,077
    I’m going to tread carefully here, but I think the HoF should tell the story of the game. There’s certainly scumbags and cheaters in there already and guys like Schilling and the steroid crew - if they put up the numbers - should be in if found deserving on their accomplishments. Put an asterisk or a note on their plaque.
     
  15. Max Power

    Max Power thai good. you like shirt? SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,335
    The museum tells the story of the game. The Hall is there to honor the best of the best. You can still find the sock out on display even if there isn't a plaque for him.
     
  16. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,406
    I don’t think he’s a marginal candidate at all. After Maddux, Clemens and Johnson, I don’t think there was anyone Better in his era, and Maddux spit the bit in the playoffs quite a bit. To me, his peak, his post-season heroics, and his otherworldly rate stats.are first ballot material, as deserving as David Ortiz.

    His post retirement slip into alt-right politics sucks, and it’s going to cost him votes. As I said earlier though, before he lost everything in his ill fated business venture, he was very charitable with his money and spoke out on good causes. So that’s what I’d put in the offset column against destructive twitter memes were i a hall of game voter.
     
  17. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,077
    So, because he’s acknowledged in one wing it’s cool, but in the other room, no?
     
  18. charlieoscar

    charlieoscar Member

    Messages:
    1,110
    If you were a right-wing HoF voter, he might be your cup of tea. You lean enough to the left, you might despise him; enough to the right, adore him. Where does the line fall among the voters? Is the distribution normal and not particularly skewed?
     
  19. Lose Remerswaal

    Lose Remerswaal Leaves after the 8th inning Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    32,688
    I am not aware of his charitable efforts, other than Curt's Pitch (self - serving foundation shut down the minute he retired) and his "donation" to the SoSH Jimmy Fund event.

    As a huge Curt fan I am always looking for positives about him, so please educate me about his charitable actions
     
  20. richgedman'sghost

    richgedman'sghost Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,274
    I am curious about Curt's charity efforts as well. I know that over 10 years ago, this board had a partnership or association with him to raise money for ALS and other causes. However, that pre dates my time here. Would any member from that time frame be willing to discuss how difficult Schilling was to deal with? Did he actually show up to events? Was his heart into it or was Curt more perfunctory about his time.ie...30 minutes and out...
    I just find it curious that during all this discussion about Schilling none of the members of SOSH who actually dealt with him have jumped to his defense. They have beeb silent. That speaks vokumes in my mind.
     
  21. Rovin Romine

    Rovin Romine Johnny Rico Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    8,795
    I don't know, I've heard that Pedro dude was pretty good.

    That Smoltz guy was just OK though - I mean, I always get him confused with Vineglav, or whatever his name was.
     
  22. BoSox Rule

    BoSox Rule Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,622
    And Maddux started 30 playoff games, pitched in another 5, with almost 200 innings of 3.27 ERA ball.
     
  23. Max Power

    Max Power thai good. you like shirt? SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,335
    Yes. You can find memorabilia about Fernandomania, Joe Carter's World Series homer, Don Larsen's perfect game, and all sorts of things that tell the story of the game in the main museum, whether the players were inducted or not. The Hall is to honor the best of the best individual players with no particular narrative attached. It's perfectly reasonable to think Schilling shouldn't be included in the latter while recognizing some of his achievements in the former.
     
  24. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,406
    How the hell did I forget Pedro?

    Here’s a good litany of Curt’s longtime commitment to ALS causes:

    http://www.alsa.org/news/archive/schillings-hall-of-fame.html

    And, The Scillings also started the Shade Foundation to raise money for melanoma research. It appears to still be operating, though they are no longer on the board.
     
  25. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,077
    Sure, it’s perfectly reasonable. I just disagree.
     
  26. Brohamer of the Gods

    Brohamer of the Gods Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,542
    Great. According to your link, he has raised over $10 million for charity. Even after the lawsuits, RI is still on the hook for $28 million for his stupidity. So in the balance, Curt is still a financial detriment to society.

    Curt also helped to kill AAA baseball for me. My six year old loves going to the Paw Sox, took part in all sorts of kids club activities there this year. That will be ending soon, in part because of Curt.

    No other baseball player has ever had a detrimental effect on me personally, HOF candidate or not. So fuck Curt Schilling. If I had a BBWAA vote I would pencil in "Fuck Curt Schilling."
     
  27. moondog80

    moondog80 heart is two sizes two small SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,877
    Schilling went into the video game deal with honest intentions, as evidenced by all the money he lost personally. He is a failed businessman. But RI is on the hook for $28 mil because of their own stupidity in going along with the deal in the first place, he didn't hold a gun to their head.

    And pinning the Pawsox on him is silly.
     
  28. Rovin Romine

    Rovin Romine Johnny Rico Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    8,795
    None of which changes the fact that Schilling is in the Kevin Brown/Mike Mussina zone.
     
  29. moondog80

    moondog80 heart is two sizes two small SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,877
    I agree. Brown 68.4 WAR, Mussina 82.9, Schilling 80.6. I'd give Schill a bigger bump than the other two because of the postseason performance, but he's definitely not in the Pedro and Johnson tier.
     
  30. axx

    axx lurker

    Messages:
    6,000
    Appears that Moose is going to get in eventually tho.
     
  31. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,406
    Mussina s another one I think should be a lock. His 2 best seasons were the ones impacted by the strike in 94-95. If those 2 years are 162 games, he likely has back to back 20 win seasons on his resume and is already in because of that cache.

    Exactly. Holding Schilling responsible for RI politicians’ structuring a terrible program, making the decision to invest in Schillings company with that terrible program, and the a decade later lose the PawSox over it? That’s the height of projection.
     
  32. Brohamer of the Gods

    Brohamer of the Gods Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,542
    I don't pin it all on Curt, but the specter of 38 Studios hung heavy over the discussion about a new Pawtucket stadium. His name came up a lot in the public outcry against the stadium. It may well have been unwarranted, but it did exist and was a factor.

    And I also agree that there is plenty of blame to go around for the whole 38 Studios fiasco, but a sizeable chunk does belong to Curt. He was so stupid, he didn't even realize that he got the full $75 million, and that some was being held back for expenses in the bond. That level of incompetence, and his utter arrogance add to my ire. Then he topped it by bitching out Linc Chafee when Linc refused to throw more state money at the problem.

    So yeah, for my non-existent vote for admission into an honorary society I vote Fuck Curt Schilling. And if any other MLB player manages to personally screw me over, I will vote fuck them too.
     
  33. Lose Remerswaal

    Lose Remerswaal Leaves after the 8th inning Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    32,688
    Look at the books for Curt's pitch and see how much of that money went to ALS research. I've looked and I was appalled and started donating directly to avoid all his overhead.

    He definitely raised the profile of the disease, but much of that money ended up in the pockets of his friends and family.
     
  34. InsideTheParker

    InsideTheParker Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    23,204
    Gosh, he really is a Trumpista. Is any charity oversight committee (I assume they exist?) aware of this?
     
  35. SirPsychoSquints

    SirPsychoSquints Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,784
    Careful, they might count it.

    https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/247f985c-3536-447f-8208-cbdacc373112
     
  36. Brohamer of the Gods

    Brohamer of the Gods Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,542
    Again, I don't give Curt all of the blame. But I have voted against some of the others responsible for that fiasco when I had the chance, and will do the same if I ever have the chance to vote against Curt.

    And you are not local enough to have heard Curt mentioned by name in opposition to the stadium deal. Not 38 Studios, Curt Schilling. Was it warranted? Probably not, at least in the level it was presented, but it existed and it did influence the process.

    But to show I am totally fair, if Larry Lucchino is ever nominated for the Baseball Hall of Fame, I vote fuck him too for moving the Paw Sox.
     
  37. Brohamer of the Gods

    Brohamer of the Gods Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,542
  38. LoweTek

    LoweTek Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,299
    I was basically the CFO of the two SoSh ALS auctions. I collected the money and I also personally handed the checks over not to Schilling but directly to Mass ALS representatives. Over two years SoSH auctions donated close to $100,000 to Mass ALS. I still donate more than $500 annually in John Hoyt's memory.

    As for. Schilling himself, he donated items including tours of the Red Sox clubhouse and also donated recipes to a cookbook we put together and sold to raise additional funds. So as far as doing his part to contribute to our efforts, he was fine.

    However, he was difficult to pin down and slow to respond to a lot of communications. I remember he drove Fris nuts, all of us actually. We had to drag him down to the Red Sox dugout for the photo with the big cardboard check. I did get him to sign the carbon copy of the two cashier's checks. I gave one to Candy and still have the other one somewhere.

    I should mention the others from the board who all worked together to raise a lot for Mass ALS, doubtless I'll forget someone but: Skrub, Fris, Candy, BrownDog, BSL, the lady who lives in Oregon I think, I can't remember her screen name to save my life but her help was priceless putting together the cookbook.

    G38 is MLB HoF for what he did on the field, especially in the postseason. He isn't for his hate speech. However, I wouldn't be so quick to blame him for the gaming company failure. RI should have seen it coming from his books and should not have been so star struck.

    I really don't think the character clause means anything.
     
  39. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,077
  40. Brohamer of the Gods

    Brohamer of the Gods Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,542
    Oh no, I think Shank represents the sort of people who were calling into talk radio and writing letters to the editor of the Pro Jo to complain about the stadium deal very well. Mindless blowhards - kinda like Curt in that respect.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying pinning the failure of the Paw Sox deal on Curt is logical, I'm just saying it happened. The connection was made between a bad deal with a baseball player and a bad deal on a baseball stadium. Having that deal price out at $38 million in public funding didn't help psychologically either. He didn't have anything to do with the Paw Sox, but the mere association of his poisonous name had a detrimental effect.
     
  41. joyofsox

    joyofsox empty, bleak Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,446
    Another reason Mussina may get into Cooperstown over Schilling is because he kept his alleged racism mostly under wraps.
     
  42. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

    Messages:
    38,917
    Mussina signed with the Yankees as a free agent later that same year, so if Gammons did mean him, something is off.
     
  43. Marciano490

    Marciano490 Urological Expert SoSH Member

    Messages:
    32,005
    Hader was 14. The Heisman trophy winner was 14. Schilling is in his 40s. You don’t see the difference? Plus, Schilling is still tweeting that stuff.
     
  44. Tyrone Biggums

    Tyrone Biggums nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,027
    Disgusting. Mussina and Schilling while being shit bag people both probably deserve the hall. Definitely not in the Kevin Brown territory as someone previously mentioned.
     
  45. Lose Remerswaal

    Lose Remerswaal Leaves after the 8th inning Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    32,688
    Quoting Gregory Lynn here?
     
  46. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,077
    Yes, let’s banish Mussina to eternal damnation based on a senile Gammons, Rob Neyer’s speculation and the sleuthing of...some guy.

    If only Gammons had called him a special person...
     
  47. Montana Fan

    Montana Fan Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,792
    That’s Holmes Smarter Brother you’re talking about.

    And Schilling and Mussina can twist in the wind for as long as Blyleven did. There’s no rush to get them in there.
     
  48. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,077
    No, I agree, let them twist, but at least we have concrete evidence on Schilling being a piece of shit. Rob Neyer trying to decipher a Gammons comment doesn’t do a lot for me to put Mussina in the damnation pile.
     
  49. Rovin Romine

    Rovin Romine Johnny Rico Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    8,795
    Yeah, Brown's 96-00 peak was better than Schilling's.
     
  50. Myt1

    Myt1 the FRESH maker Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    25,382
    Do you think he was facetiously saying that Comey and Clinton should be hung for treason or do you think he actually believes that? Because I think I have a pretty good idea. And the, “He was just kidding!” is a bit rich coming from a guy who didn’t recognize Obama making an Untouchables joke about pulling a gun.

    You should talk to some of the people on this board who tried to work with him on such endeavors.

    You’re talking about one of the simplest simpletons around.

    When people tell you what they are, believe them.
     
    #100 Myt1, Dec 24, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018

Share This Page