Dismiss Notice
Guest, I have a big favor to ask you. We've been working very hard to establish ourselves on social media. If you like/follow our pages it would be a HUGE help to us. SoSH on Facebook and Inside the Pylon Thanks! Nip

Schilling, the Hall, and the Character Clause

Discussion in 'MLB Discussion' started by ConigliarosPotential, Dec 19, 2018.

  1. ConigliarosPotential

    ConigliarosPotential Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,636
    Not that I expect him to get in - this year or probably ever - but would Schilling even be allowed to speak at Cooperstown? That would be quite a spectacle...
     
  2. John Marzano Olympic Hero

    John Marzano Olympic Hero has fancy plans, and pants to match Dope

    Messages:
    19,785
    I think that he would. I mean, I know that he's a monster but that would be a really bad look on Cooperstown if they didn't allow him to do that.

    And I wonder if he would spend his whole speech ripping people? As much as I dislike the guy, I don't think that he would. That would be a terrible look for him and I know that he doesn't give a shit, but I think that the Hall of Fame is a different ball game.
     
  3. Jim Ed Rice in HOF

    Jim Ed Rice in HOF Red-headed Skrub child SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,472
    I'm with JMOH here on both counts. If he gets in the HOF isn't going to stop him from speaking. I also think his speech wouldn't be a spectacle. Regardless of all the other stuff he spews he does seem to hold baseball and its history in high enough regard to not shit all over it during his speech.

    As for his chances of getting in I think they may be better than you're expecting. After 6 years he was at 51%. In comparison Edgar (who will be close) was at 27% and Tim Raines was at 52%. The difference between Curt and those guys is that there is probably a core group that will never vote for Schilling where Edgar and Raines voters are probably more easily swayed.
     
  4. SemperFidelisSox

    SemperFidelisSox suzyn SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,154
    “Just don’t put my plaque near the Negro League wing...”
     
  5. Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat

    Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat has big, douchey shoulders Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    31,489
    I think you can eliminate "League"
     
  6. Rough Carrigan

    Rough Carrigan reasons within Reason Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    18,806
    Before it was known that he was politically incorrect and flagrantly so, it was assumed that Schilling would be a hall of famer. I hope the folks delighting in his fall from high regard never discover that they've committed a thought crime unrelated to their work and have it obliterate the consideration of that work.
     
  7. ConigliarosPotential

    ConigliarosPotential Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,636
    First of all, Schilling hasn't committed "a thought crime" - he's committed hundreds if not thousands of them. Secondly, as long as "integrity, sportsmanship and character" remain part of the credentials considered by HoF voters, one can easily argue that Schilling's Twitter account is not unrelated to his HoF electability. Thirdly, is anyone actually delighting in his fall from high regard? Most of us loved G38 for a long time and wished he hadn't revealed himself to be who he now appears to be.

    I always leaned toward the side who believed that strictly on baseball merit, Schilling deserves to be in the HoF. And even accounting for the morals clause, I think he'd be a much more deserving HoF entrant than Harold Freaking Baines. But I wasn't commenting on whether I'd vote for him - I said that I don't expect him to get in, because I suspect the number of voters who won't condone his off-field antics will always be greater than 25%. (Maybe he'll eventually get in via the Veteran's Committee or another smaller voting body that doesn't get as uppity about morals and character than the writers.)
     
  8. The Needler

    The Needler lurker

    Messages:
    1,445
    “Thought crimes” are unspoken and unacted-upon beliefs. Voluntary and incessant speaking, tweeting and otherwise expressing abhorrent and hateful opinions as Schilling specializes in are not the same. He’s legally permitted to express them, and we (and HOF voters, the media, etc.) are legally permitted to shun him for them.
     
  9. John Marzano Olympic Hero

    John Marzano Olympic Hero has fancy plans, and pants to match Dope

    Messages:
    19,785
    No. I don't take any delight in seeing a person descent into a tailspin and though given umpteen chances to pull himself out of it, stubbornly refuse to do so. Among other truly obnoxious and detestable tweets, Facebook messages and social media meltdowns; Curt Schilling liked an image of a t-shirt advocating for the literal lynching of media members.

    If someone is a member of the media, why would they want to do a favor for that guy? "Hey! I wish you were fucking dead!" "Oh great, here I will vote for you to have the highest honor that a person can have in your field and reap any financial benefits that come with it. I will now find my own rope, tree and then hang myself! Toodle-loo!"

    For a person who believes in facing the consequences of one's action (and I use this term very loosely, because Schilling and people like him only believe in other people facing the consequences of their actions), Schilling is incredibly dense when it comes to these things.

    And please don't couch his homophobic, racist, misogynist rantings as some sort of "political correctness" gone awry. Or that just because he pitched for the 2004 or 07 Red Sox teams that he's given free reign to be a complete asshole. What he's done is bigger than that. I hope he never lives long enough to witness his enshrinement.
     
  10. Rough Carrigan

    Rough Carrigan reasons within Reason Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    18,806
    So, if Harry Heilman had been kept out of the Hall of Fame instead of being voted in in 1952, because it had been found that he was a rabid communist I guess you would all have cheered, right? "Fuck you and your every other year batting titles you suckup to Stalin, you toady to tyrants!"

    Because it's not just about being in the majority as you look around over your shoulder, right? It's about principle. And being a conscious advocate of an ideology that resulted in the murder of 100 million civilians in the 20th century, that would be pretty bad, right? Especially right when we were coming to understand the grotesque scope of the purges, murders and gulag archipelago. Even worse than once clicking "like" on the image of a t-shirt with an over the top sentiment.

    When you decide that arguments with which you disagree should not be overcome but punished you step away from free society. When you delight in that punishment, and some folks here and elsewhere truly seem to do just that, you step further away.
     
  11. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,652
    Adolph Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Ted Kasinski, Ted Bundy, Osama Bin Ladin, and

    Curt Schilling.

    History’s greatest monsters.
     
  12. dhappy42

    dhappy42 Straw Man

    Messages:
    5,586
    Nah. Schilling doesn’t belong in the History’s Greatest Monsters Hall of Fame. He’s a replacement-level monster.
     
    #12 dhappy42, Dec 20, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  13. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,652
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak

    He has said very mean things on Twitter sometimes. I guess in 2018, that makes you a monster to some.
     
    #13 Plympton91, Dec 20, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  14. Myt1

    Myt1 the FRESH maker Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    26,944
    This is fucking stupid on so many fucking stupid levels.

    Christ, people are super fucking whiny about protecting the freedom to spout off like an asshole from people doing shit like talking badly about it.

    Want you on that wall. Need you on that wall.
     
  15. dhappy42

    dhappy42 Straw Man

    Messages:
    5,586
    What’s your address? I want to send you a sense of humor for Xmas.
     
  16. GrandSlamPozo

    GrandSlamPozo lurker

    Messages:
    24
    I wanna know what the thought process was that led him to invent the hypothetical scenario of Harry Heilmann being a communist.
     
  17. JohntheBaptist

    JohntheBaptist Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,382
    I think I know why you guys are confused, actually. It's all right here--neither of these are, in fact, accurate. Rough yours particularly. I would go actually familiarize yourself with what youre responding to.

    I actually agree that by and large the idea is to vote on who was worthy on the field. I mean I'm not letting any Nazis in, but you should--shit, wait.

    In all sincerity, voters should vote on his record. I don't think anyone's arguing against that, just that what the fuck do you expect when you act like he's acted--actually how he's acted, and not these pathetic "versions" of what he's done like seen above--that other human beings turn their noses up. Implicit in that is we don't have to debate that he's been a hateful asshole in public, at times for money, for nearly a decade at this point, because if he wasn't what would being a hateful asshole even look like? but 2018 and all.
     
  18. Rough Carrigan

    Rough Carrigan reasons within Reason Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    18,806
    You were missing the little distinction of how spouting off like an asshole is not okay . . if you disagree with someone. But fine.
     
  19. Tyrone Biggums

    Tyrone Biggums nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,048
    Schilling being a member of the new Nazi party (GOP) doesn't necessarily preclude him from being a HOFer. However, no one needs to vote for him either. His accomplishments on the field scream HOF. But off the field...ugh. Then again Ty Cobb murdered someone and he's in.
     
  20. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

    Messages:
    17,594
    That’s specious at best and Stump has pretty much been discredited as a biographer.
     
  21. JohntheBaptist

    JohntheBaptist Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,382
    Your responses in this thread have been embarrassing. "Thought crimes" and Harry Heilman whataboutism and lying about what Schilling has done to make it seem a bit less awful.

    No one missed anything.
     
  22. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,652
    Has Schilling murdered anyone? Was he accused of denying someone a job at his gaming company based on prejudice?

    He’s said mean things about vulnerable classes of people. That’s being a grade A asshole, sure. If you’d used that phrase to start with, nobody would disagree with you. It’s certainly relevant to the “character clause” of HOF balloting as well.

    But using the phrase “monster” to describe that behavior is a great example of this

    https://psychcentral.com/lib/what-is-catastrophizing/
     
  23. JohntheBaptist

    JohntheBaptist Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,382
    1. I actually used the phrase you described
    2. I didn't call anyone a monster
    3. Rough was not responding to the person who did use the phrase "monster"
    4. Rough's argument sucked out loud
    5. I think we'll all survive this particular instance of "catastrophizing"--your beef is with using "monster" instead of "asshole," yes?

    Come on, you're not a bad guy, there's no way you don't think Schilling is a massive asshole too. They should vote on his record, but he makes it fuckin' hard on himself, the voters are only human and he's worthy but he ain't Seaver either. The distinction is that he's not just a garden variety jerk, right? It's indecent.
     
  24. Lose Remerswaal

    Lose Remerswaal Leaves after the 8th inning Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    33,568
    He called for lynching journalists.

    If they don't like that I'm fine with that
     
  25. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,652
    Yeah, I’m sure he meant it totally literally! Ctfo.

    I absolutely agree Schilling has made lots of horrible comments on Twitter and talk radio. Anti-social media brings out the worst in a lot of people. He was also extremely charitable with his money when he had it, and spoke out for many good causes from his star athlete platform.

    People are complicated. News at 11.
     
  26. Brohamer of the Gods

    Brohamer of the Gods Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,616
    He fucked over my state, cost me a tax payer in Rhode Island money, and poisoned the public spending well which helped kill the deal for the new Pawtucket Red Sox stadium. So they are now leaving town which will remove an affordable live baseball viewing option that my family and I have enjoyed, in my case for 40 years. So yeah, fuck Curt Schilling - he has a detrimental effect on my life, and that doesn't even get into his fascist politics.
     
  27. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,652
    There’s scheduenfreude in a self professed conservative blowing up a publicly subsidized company, certainly. He invested and lost everything he had in the company as well, so it’s not like it was fraudulent Or bad faith on his part though. Just a bad business decision by all involved. There’s a reason real conservatives are opposed to that type of program, and you have to wonder what the hell any government was doing subsidizing video games. At least if the crony capitalists that ran Solyndra into the ground had worked out there was a public benefit.
     
  28. JohntheBaptist

    JohntheBaptist Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,382
    Honest question--what are you arguing at this point? We're calling him an asshole. You're calling him an asshole. I don't think it's far-fetched to suggest that acting in the ways he's acted might hurt your chances in something that is, in part, a popularity contest. And maybe sympathy might be in short supply for someone that's done it entirely to themselves.

    Maybe this isn't the "conservative" you want to ride into the fray for. Maybe this guy is less a "conservative" than a deranged lunatic it'd be more sensible to disown? The Hall of Fame is full of hardcore conservatives, no one is batting an eyelash.
     
  29. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,652
    It’d get too much into politics to go further on a baseball Board.
     
    #29 Plympton91, Dec 21, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
  30. keninten

    keninten lurker

    Messages:
    522
    Seems to me his arguement is yes he`s a asshole. The other side hates him mainly for his politics. You know another kind of racism that is OK on that side.
     
  31. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    58,865
    I think he's an elbow ... or a hole in the ground
     
  32. JohntheBaptist

    JohntheBaptist Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,382
    I don’t hate him for his politics. I am a baseball fan I have no illusions about the politics of anyone involved. If Plymptons argument is as you describe it, then he agrees and I don’t get why we’re pretending this is about bickering with people on Twitter or people being complicated.

    I’m sure I don’t know about “another kind of racism that is OK on that side” you’ll have to fill me in on that one.
     
  33. Montana Fan

    Montana Fan Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,887
    This thread has further exposed Biggums as an idiot. Now he's on ignore as there is absolutely nothing being added to the conversation by his bleatings.
     
  34. Montana Fan

    Montana Fan Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,887
    And seeing JtB and Plymp in violent agreement while seeming to need an interpreter is a Festivus Miracle that I'm going to celebrate.
     
  35. Rough Carrigan

    Rough Carrigan reasons within Reason Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    18,806
    How did I lie about what Schilling has done? I didn't make a single representation about what he's actually done except to half jokingly categorize his offenses as thought crimes.

    As distasteful as you find him, whom has he hurt? He must have hurt someone if his career should be thrown in the shitcan over these offenses, right? Is it the bankruptcy? Because if you're going to set a standard that no post career athlete can have financial problems you're going to empty out every hall of fame.

    The hysteria that someone pushed back even a little bit on what all the other girls at the queen bee cafeteria table were saying is a bit much.

    When he first retired there was a strong consensus that he was getting in. Not on the first ballot, not a la Mays or Ted Williams or inner circle Hall. The expectation was that he'd get in on, I don't know, his 5th year or 6th year of eligibility but I guess we'll see now.

    Thank god Ted Williams didn't have Twitter or Facebook in his day. It's hard to see Ted not making the fatal mistake of clicking like an the image of a t-shirt saying something terrible about the press. And what could we do after that but keep him out forever?
     
  36. Leskanic's_Thread

    Leskanic's_Thread Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    803
    "once clicking "like" on the image of a t-shirt with an over the top sentiment" is a misrepresentation of his years-long drumbeat of hatred against those different from him and embracing of white power propaganda, extending into open calls for violence against reporters for, you know, reporting that hatred.

    I would write a lot more, but as has been said, this is already too V&N. I will just say that many people, including me, would argue that there's a difference between divergent political opinions and beyond-the-pale stances. Mainstream political discourse used to openly shun the latter; just because that is no longer the case doesn't mean those stances are actually acceptable or should be ignored.
     
  37. JohntheBaptist

    JohntheBaptist Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,382
    Is it your argument that the only hurt is physical? If not, what would "hurtful" look like if not for what he's posted and said in public on numerous occasions?

    His career has not been thrown in the shitcan by anyone other than him. In fact, it has simply morphed into providing content for aggrieved cranks who don't think he's that bad, so you should consider checking it out. The hows and whys have been rehashed endless times in here, but we are absolutely not talking about some poor embattled soul that put his foot in his mouth. We're talking about someone who has burned through opportunities 2-5000 in spectacular fashion because he can't not be an asshole. Please with the bankruptcy stuff.

    I'm sure you could fit a few more shithead sexist images in here if you tried, you know. And again, I'm going to categorize this is a lie, and a fairly pathetic one, to make what he's done seem easier to swallow for you to make your point.

    Would it be possible for a player to say things that would make you understand that the very human voters would struggle to be perfectly objective in voting for him? Anything at all? If it's a yes, and Curt's ain't it, what would it have to look like?

    You want this to be thought police PCness gone amok but it really is just simple decency. How much more do you need?

    So just a little boohooing and no direct response. Duly noted.
     
  38. JohntheBaptist

    JohntheBaptist Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,382
    Totally agree, and well said.

    I'd just say though, I don't see this as a political discussion at all. I don't care about hardcore conservatives in the Hall of Fame, hell, I don't care about Curt Schilling in the Hall of Fame, as I've stated in this thread, Rough's strawmen notwithstanding.

    I just understand that being a hateful human being is what he's doing, and I get when other humans struggle to reward hateful human beings. I don't get what part of that the pushback is coming on, or why so many of you get all scared when the conversation trends in that direction, but I'll stop now.
     
  39. Max Power

    Max Power thai good. you like shirt? SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,461
    I'll shed no tears for Schilling. He's happily sold his hateful bullshit to any TV network who will have him on. And in a world where Bert Blyleven had to wait 15 years to get in, he isn't a slam-dunk nominee, either.

    I'm interested in seeing how the voters handle Harold Baines and Lee Smith's induction. Are they going to be considered the new floor? Or will they be ignored and voters will follow whatever standards they have set before? Because there are at least 20 players better than Baines and Smith on the ballot right now, including Schilling.
     
  40. Marciano490

    Marciano490 Urological Expert SoSH Member

    Messages:
    34,369
    The only people who decry politicizing things like this are people who are comfortable with the status quo. Putting a rancid bigot like Schilling into the HoF in this day and age is a slap in the face of the people he belittles. The Hall is a commemoration of the best of America’s pastime. It’s also a place where people go, people who might feel demeaned having to look at Curt being celebrated.
     
  41. maufman

    maufman Anderson Cooper x Mr. Rogers Staff Member Dope Gold Supporter

    Messages:
    24,432
    Breaking this out of the 2019 HOF ballot thread.

    I can’t be arsed to go through the 40 or so posts above and delete the ones that don’t meet our standards around here — don’t take that as an excuse to mimic that behavior. Rough Carrigan has been thread-banned, so if you want a sense of what’s not acceptable, you can look at what he wrote.
     
  42. maufman

    maufman Anderson Cooper x Mr. Rogers Staff Member Dope Gold Supporter

    Messages:
    24,432
    Historically, character has only come into play for borderline candidates. Which, as the 6th or 7th* best starting pitcher of his generation, Schilling is.

    The debate over Schilling would be a lot more interesting if he had the resume of an all-time great, or even a rock-solid Hall of Famer like Steve Carlton. But he doesn’t. If character matters at all (and the official rules say it does), Schilling belongs on the outside looking in.


    *- Behind Pedro, Clemens, Johnson, Maddux, Smoltz, and arguably Mussina.
     
  43. axx

    axx lurker

    Messages:
    6,088
    His career is pretty similar to that of Mussina's, I think, so that if Moose does get in eventually I think Schilling will. But yeah, by the Veterans Committee. And remember, the Veterans Committee only meets every so often; plus Schill's got 3 more years on the ballot. The "Trump Stuff" will be ancient history by then.
     
  44. Marciano490

    Marciano490 Urological Expert SoSH Member

    Messages:
    34,369
    He was a putrid human before Trump and hopefully we’ll look back on his ilk less favorably than we do now.
     
  45. budcrew08

    budcrew08 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    5,292
    So here’s an interesting thought and maybe worth its own thread: which HOF is better in terms of induction criteria? It is baseball with its so-called morality clause that has so far kept out the PED guys and opinionated people like G38, or the football HOF, which doesn’t give a flying fig about your off-field discretions (or lack thereof)?

    To bring it back to this thread, why should Schilling be kept out because he says dumb shit and thinks a certain way? Plenty of guys in from “back in the day” we’re like that. I believe it should be based on your on-field body of work.
     
  46. JCizzle

    JCizzle Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    9,313
    There's dumb, and then there's comparing Muslims to Nazis while your own house is full of Nazi memorabilia that you went out of your way to buy for...reasons.
     
  47. curly2

    curly2 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    3,945
    Are you seriously trying to compare athletes who squander their OWN money with someone who blew $75 million of Rhode Island TAXPAYERS money?
     
  48. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin SoSH Member

    Messages:
    21,420
    Wearing it gets him in the mood for Tweeting, clearly.

    I despise pretty much everything about Schilling, but I would vote for him because he had a Hall of Fame career. Worse people have gotten in, so I hope journalists can put aside his stupidity and hate and vote based purely on his field performance. He hasn’t crossed the “ignore his on field performance line” yet, and I think proven, repeated PED users are further down on my list (though I could still vote for one).
     
  49. EvilEmpire

    EvilEmpire Dope Staff Member Dope

    Messages:
    9,160
    I think it is great that the Hall has a character clause, even if it can't really be applied uniformly as values change over time. I think anger over PED usage will probably fade enough that most of the big time names associated with them will eventually get it. Hopefully views against stuff like hate speech and domestic violence will harden even more so that avenues like the veterans committee are closed off too.
     
  50. Average Reds

    Average Reds Dope Staff Member Dope V&N Mod SoSH Member

    Messages:
    24,694
    I think this post nails the topic, right down to the comparison with another pitcher who spent the bulk of his career with the Phillies and had (has?) even more extreme views than Schilling. (Carlton.)

    If Schilling were being evaluated strictly by the numbers, he'd probably be knocking on the door by now. But it's never been about the numbers. It's about who the BBWAA thinks is "worthy." And Curt going around the bend these past few years has almost certainly cost him his shot, because he isn't a no-doubter in the minds of most writers.
     

Share This Page