Something along the lines of the Louis Delmas-Tony Scheffler relationship, I imagine. See: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130808/SPORTS0101/308080035dwainw said:
Rookie hazing & bullying: Miami guard Incognito indefinitely suspended
- Thread starter SeoulSoxFan
- Start date
veritas said:
I think anyone who thinks this is an NFL problem in isolation is missing, well, a lot.
And it's not naive to treat NFL teams like other work place environments. People respond to structure very effectively. This problem isn't a function of a bunch of guys who are insane--it is cultivated. As it is cultivated, so can it be stopped.
Oklahoma Jones said:
I feel the need to clarify - it took more than decade AND for him to date (and be dumped by) my sister AND for us to find a common shared interest. I did make amends but it did not happen before the end of the episode (so to speak). It took time, unique circumstances and real effort from both of us to talk through what happened, why it happened and how it affected both of us.
Thank you for your post and welcome to the site.
And I am yet again blown away by a Reverend post. Bravo.
dwainw said:
The media narrative that this is simply a 1 v 1 Icognito vs. Martin case is fucking stupid. Martin was abused by many people in that locker room and Icognito is just the crazy person who was probably A. loudest and B. unconcerned about being recorded. The coaches and other players empowered and even directed Incognito even though they all knew Icognito is a fucking crazy person. The support from other members of the team and coaches also likely springs from the fact that a flawed guy from a flawed background like Incognito is much more like the majority of the locker room than the upper middle class son of Harvard grads who didn't want to play football until he was a senior in high school. That doesn't excuse it, but that is the environment we are looking at in this case.
In terms of the earlier discussion about Martin's motivations, I think it is perfectly fair and accurate to say that it only became worth it for him to take the nuclear option of releasing the VMs and texts to management and the media when the Dolphins tried to play hard ball and not pay him. He walked away because he didn't need that shit, and that is a perfectly reasonable and honorable decision. He wasn't willing to be called a "rat" until they were willing to take his paychecks. The unsurprising message here is that Jeff Ireland is an idiot who can be counted on to fuck up nearly any situation. Ross has to fire him for his mishandling of this and subsequent damage to the Dolphin's brand.
For me, this is on the coaches almost exclusively. Incognito's behavior can't be sanctioned and needs to be punished, but EVERYONE knows he is a fucking crazy person who can only really succeed in a couple of places in life, like Prison or an NFL locker room. Making Incognito a team leader and asking him to mentor a young, struggling to adapt guy like Martin, no mater how hard Incognito works and how much his behavior seems to have changed, is simply leadership malpractice. It is the equivalent of asking Rothlesberger to chaperon a sorority event or Mike Vick to take care of someone's dog.
Have you ever heard Bill Clinton referred to as the first black President? In this context, the identity extends beyond skin color to encompass world view, life experiences and, as the article notes, a way of carrying oneself as a man.dwainw said:
Chris Carter, who lives in So FL and has a pipeline into the Dolphins locker room, is an excellent source on this story. Yesterday he observed that the NFL was a haven for him as a black man. He experienced virtually no racism. Yet the n-word was thrown around the field of play with abandon and accepted. Oh, and by the way, Riley Cooper is just fine with the Eagles.
The story above does not surprise me in the least. People here have amazing insights into bullying; Soxfan's post may be the post of the year.
But the observation here that the n- word is "unacceptable", while accurate in society at large, is a joke when applied to an NFL locker room, the dynamics of which we can not begin to understand. These people in many important ways are different from us. Period.
dcmissle said:
What do you mean, "these people"?
But in an important sense, movie quotations aside, I'm serious. The thing about good natured ribbing is being cognizant of who you are dealing with. The same words can be used to bond or to exclude, based upon context. What was the purpose of these words matters.
Moreover, I think it's too general to note that Incognito called Martin the "n-word" and that can be used in good fun in some contexts. In fact, he said he was only half of one--I'm not sure I have ever heard that specific usage in anything but the pejorative.
Also, while we're at it, good post by GF09. I really do like this place sometimes.
Reverend said:
I'm not saying it can't be stopped. I'm saying putting the responsibility for those changes on one person (the coach) is unrealistic. A coach is judged on winning games and as we've seen in many other incidents, morality often gets thrown aside in the quest for winning. Especially when their jobs depend on it. The NFL needs to adopt rules to discourage this sort of behavior and protect whistleblowers.
veritas said:
I totally agree that structuring incentives is the way to go--that was my problem with blaming baseball players for using steroids when there was no testing regime.
What I also meant, though, was that this shit starts well before the NFL. I do think, though, that the NFL is in a rare position to set a different example.
I remember reports of verbal abuse by Carlesimo. "I hope you fucking guys are ready to work today" as a greeting is one that sticks in my mid, though I have no source beyond my memory.OilCanShotTupac said:
That phrase itself seems mild, but if it was part of an everyday, "you guys are lazy and dumb" kind of thing, I'd say it was provoked.
veritas said:
I am just speculating, and God knows what else is going to come out of this story..... but I think the parties hit hardest by the Ginger Hammer will be Philbin and the assistants. I think Goodell's lesson learned from the Saints situation is that the NFLPA will defend it's clients no matter how dastardly their deed, whereas the coaches have no advocates. Thus, Saints players all got their suspensions cut down (in the courts) but Sean Payton coached youth league last year.
I think it is going to be really difficult to punish Incognito past the 4 game "conduct detrimental to the team" suspension the Dolphins gave him, but I think Philbin and other coaches will get suspensions from the league that will seem quite severe. That will be all it takes for other coaches to realize that this shit must be policed, though I imagine this is already quite the topic of conversations in coaching meetings across the league this week.
Football players, obviously. At least at the pro level, and probably extending well down into the ranks of big time college football.Reverend said:
What do you mean, "these people"?
But in an important sense, movie quotations aside, I'm serious. The thing about good natured ribbing is being cognizant of who you are dealing with. The same words can be used to bond or to exclude, based upon context. What was the purpose of these words matters.
Moreover, I think it's too general to note that Incognito called Martin the "n-word" and that can be used in good fun in some contexts. In fact, he said he was only half of one--I'm not sure I have ever heard that specific usage in anything but the pejorative.
Also, while we're at it, good post by GF09. I really do like this place sometimes.
Virtually all of them are hard, in every way imaginable. We don't see many sides of that, and the parts well hidden would deeply offend the liberal sensibilities sprinkled throughout this thread.
Lots of things may come of this. One thing that certainly will not come of it is the Miami locker room rejecting RI and embracing Martin.
Those offended by that can come to terms with it or find heroes in another sport.
See Aaron Hernandez's bonus. Can't remember but I think they at least tried to get some of Vick's money back as well but less sure on that front.OilCanShotTupac said:
That clarification just goes to show what a tremendously damaging thing bullying is and how seemingly small events can have long-lasting effects on those involved. This seems to be ignored by some (not here) in these discussions. Anyone who thinks Martin is a "pussy" or "weak" is seriously underestimating the strength of the emotions generated by bullying and seem to be lacking in empathy. It's very cool that you were afforded the opportunity to turn that situation around eventually. No doubt, most people who have bullied don't get that chance (even if they wanted to take it). Really though, that makes your story even more real and relevant and less "made-for-TV".soxfan121 said:
So far, Incognito seems to have fully embraced and enjoyed his position as a bully, making him extremely unsympathetic. I would guess we'll see a "come to Jesus moment" in the next week or so where Incognito tells his life story, apologizes to Martin, and says that he got caught up in the NFL locker room culture and didn't realize he'd crossed a line. Whether anyone believes his conversion is genuine is an entirely different matter.
Thanks for the welcome! Long-time lurker, figured that post was as good as any I'd get to respond to for my first post. Best site on the web for New England Sports; ya'll are a bunch of characters!
I don't disagree with this on the one hand, but on the other hand, who am I, both as a white guy and as someone who has no first hand knowledge of what went on in the Dolphins locker room (or anywhere else near an NFL team) to deem something racist or not? Sorry if that sounds ignorant, but have all those adult black men who know Incognito and presumably witnessed the verbal taunts directed at Martin lost all credibility on the issue of racism due to the bullying?dcmissle said:
Asking it a different way, aren't there clearly two overlapping strains of improper behavior here: bullying and racism? To my knowledge all those players claiming Incognito isn't racist who obviously do have a stake in how this plays out, aren't saying the treatment of Martin didn't get out of control to the possible point of bullying. Do both "charges" have to be dealt with separately, or does it even matter at this point? Or have I just been blindly sucked into the media narrative that Gunfighter alluded to above?
But here is the point, I think. Several AA Dolphins swear up and down -- to the NFLN and to Chis Carter - that the guy is no racist.
So now were talking about when, if at all, it is acceptable to use the n word, and who may use it. There may be as many opinions on that issue as there are people.
So now were talking about when, if at all, it is acceptable to use the n word, and who may use it. There may be as many opinions on that issue as there are people.
dwainw said:
Michael Holley (African-American) of WEEI was incredulous as co-host Mike Salk read this blog post to him on air. And then he had a great line:
"Well, not only is there a bullying problem in the Dolphins locker room, there's a stupidity problem too."
Holley went on to question why "blackness" was being equated with "toughness" and the logical fallacy of the unnamed ("unnamed!") player judging Martin as "not black". Again, quoting Holley:
"That was determined when he emerged from his mother's birth canal! He's black! And that has nothing to do with his upbringing, who his parents are, what school he went to or how tough he is! He didn't get to choose and neither do they! (the players)"
On one level, I totally understand Holley's outrage (and it was incredulous outrage - he hadn't read the piece before air and was genuinely offended) - Martin's skin color defines him in ways that a white (caucasian) person can never understand. And, IMO, Holley has tremendous credibility on issues of race, not only because he is African-American but because he has been (his words) "an affirmative action hire" at the Globe and at WEEI and has been a leading voice on race & sports in this town for nearly two decades. And because he is not prone to 'playing the race card' or blowing these things out of proportion. Michael Holley is, and always has been, a voice of moderation and the middle-of-the-road. It makes him a somewhat boring and milquetoast radio personality. He isn't Jason Whitlock, IOW.
Having read Salguero's piece twice now, I am struck by how the Dolphins players are circling the wagons to protect Incognito. Especially when contrasted with London Fletcher's comments from earlier in the day (posted up thread). Part of me understands why the Dolphins players are going on record to support Incognito - that's what teammates do. Unfortunately, they all keep stepping on their collective dicks with their lack of support of teammate Jonathan Martin.
And really - why are the Dolphins players still talking to the media about this? Why hasn't Joe Philbin gathered the team and threatened to fine the next guy talking about ANYTHING other than Sunday's game? Is he unaware of the media-control techniques of Bill Belichick? Seriously...Philbin should have put a gag order on his team the moment this story broke and certainly after Incognito's ill-advised twitter bullying of Adam Schefter. That they are still giving out quotes and digging the organization and Philbin into a hole is inconceivable to me. Shut up!
"We're focused on Sunday's game - next question."
-But what about this aspect of the story?
"We're focused on Sunday's game - next question."
-Did you see last night's Heat game?
"We're focused on Sunday's game - next question."
-Do you like Italian food?
"We're focused on Sunday's game - next question."
soxfan121 said:
Boy will the Dolphins be surprised when they show up on Sunday and find out that the game is only on the following day.
Joking aside, bravo to soxfan121 for your post. Times like this I wish SoSH had a 'like' button or the equivalent.
On dcmissle's point, I don't doubt that the NFL locker room is a different place. That doesn't mean it is exempt from pressures to change, or exempt from public questioning whether its current culture, which seems to tolerate what in other workplaces would be unacceptable levels of bullying / hazing, is acceptable. Even in 'ordinary' workplaces, it took a lot of effort - and lawsuits - to stamp out casual sexism of the sort you see reflected in Mad Men. I can understand why the Dolphins feel the way they do while siding with Martin, and hoping - though not necessarily expecting - the NFL changes.
I also don't doubt that Incognito may have used the n-word without any intended malice or racism. But as London Fletcher's reaction to the reported words (calling it racism) suggests, there's probably not a single locker room culture where everyone accepts the phrasing. Some people may not respond well to the use of the word, even if they don't fly into a rage over it. In environments like the NFL, where people from very different backgrounds work side-by-side, it's incumbent on leadership to establish what is acceptable.
Just as the military has an even more different culture from most workplaces, and takes in people from all kinds of backgrounds, and felt it needed to put in place rules against hazing.
On dcmissle's point, I don't doubt that the NFL locker room is a different place. That doesn't mean it is exempt from pressures to change, or exempt from public questioning whether its current culture, which seems to tolerate what in other workplaces would be unacceptable levels of bullying / hazing, is acceptable. Even in 'ordinary' workplaces, it took a lot of effort - and lawsuits - to stamp out casual sexism of the sort you see reflected in Mad Men. I can understand why the Dolphins feel the way they do while siding with Martin, and hoping - though not necessarily expecting - the NFL changes.
I also don't doubt that Incognito may have used the n-word without any intended malice or racism. But as London Fletcher's reaction to the reported words (calling it racism) suggests, there's probably not a single locker room culture where everyone accepts the phrasing. Some people may not respond well to the use of the word, even if they don't fly into a rage over it. In environments like the NFL, where people from very different backgrounds work side-by-side, it's incumbent on leadership to establish what is acceptable.
Just as the military has an even more different culture from most workplaces, and takes in people from all kinds of backgrounds, and felt it needed to put in place rules against hazing.
The whole notion that the worse your environment, the tougher you become, is just nonsense too. Playing for Greg Schiano in Tampa Bay looks way tougher than playing for Pete Carroll in Seattle, but Schiano's Bucs are miserable losers on the brink of mutiny, and Carroll's Seahawks are one of the league's best teams. Some degree of joking around teammates, including stuff like pranks, may help build camaraderie. But I'm not at all convinced that creating a culture where players feel like shit all the time is conducive to winning.
Absolutely agree with all of this. My feelings about this team, aside from the outrage over the reprehensible behavior of at least one individual, have hit rock bottom. Unless something mind-blowing comes out to shed some kind of new light on this (I'm not holding my breath), I don't know how anything else can happen but to gut the team (coaching staff & core players/"leadership" committee), put the remaining players on notice and enroll them in an anti-bullying program, and pray that an already shaky fan-base won't abandon it altogether.soxfan121 said:
Now that I think about it, between the Jags, Bucs and Dolphins, pro football in Florida is in awful shape right now. One team is looking like one of the worst of the decade, another is winless and run by a dude with all the leadership and charisma of Neidermeyer from Animal House, and the third is circling the wagons around a psycho bully with anger management problems.
Just add another to the amen chorus, but thanks so much for sharing your story soxfan.
It's funny, I grew up in Foxboro and a kid 2 years ahead of me in high school ended up having a long NFL career. He was a classic bully in school -- threw kids into lockers, punched weaker kids, etc. As a kid who was bullied myself, I rooted against him throughout his playing days and was sincerely happy when he sustained a career-ending injury.
Football is full of neanderthals. Screw 'em.
It's funny, I grew up in Foxboro and a kid 2 years ahead of me in high school ended up having a long NFL career. He was a classic bully in school -- threw kids into lockers, punched weaker kids, etc. As a kid who was bullied myself, I rooted against him throughout his playing days and was sincerely happy when he sustained a career-ending injury.
Football is full of neanderthals. Screw 'em.
Mike Keenan's teams would disagree. Given those guys tend to have very short useful lives but you can't definitively make that statement.NatetheGreat said:
Tannehill just spoke with the media.
He said if you asked him who Martin's best friend on the team was, he would say Richie Incognito.
He was asked to describe their relationship, and he answered like big brother-little brother.
He said if you asked him who Martin's best friend on the team was, he would say Richie Incognito.
He was asked to describe their relationship, and he answered like big brother-little brother.
Bullying has been around forever, but maybe this Dolphins incident will trigger much more attention to it and, well, we'll see what happens to try to curtail something which will never be stopped completely. It kind of reminds me of when the sexual harassment problem in the workplace started getting so much attention in the late 70s, early 80s. All management people, at least just them initially, were sent off to 2 or 3 day seminars taught by lawyers. My company sent a few of us from California to Dallas for it. Serious issue, spend money on it right away. We learned of some cases where women, maybe men too, forget, sued and won millions from big companies whose biggest sin turned out to be to turn a deaf ear to victims and tell them it was "part of the job culture" or something. We'll see what happens with the bullying issue. Precedent has been set though, and the turn the deaf ear response better not be what coaches or other management people use.
RT @HubbuchNYP: Hartline says the Dolphins players feel like "you guys [in the media] are bullying us, actually."
Come again?
https://twitter.com/HubbuchNYP
they seem to keep making the hole they are in bigger and bigger each day
Come again?
https://twitter.com/HubbuchNYP
they seem to keep making the hole they are in bigger and bigger each day
This is very revealing, but not in the way Tannehill presumably intends it to be.sodenj5 said:
sodenj5 said:
This is transitioning from "maybe you shouldn't be posting about this" to "maybe you shouldn't be allowed to be near young people."
Even if--if--Martin felt that Incognito was his best friend and de facto older brother, this is a model of fraternity that must be destroyed. Read soxfan121's posts again: it's bad for both of them.
That said, I think this might be bullshit and the perception of someone who didn't give a shit watching another guy try to fit in and not understand what's going on. What I'm saying though is that even in the best possible light, this is still terrible. The only thing to be debated at this point is just how putrid this is and degrees of culpability.
I want to defend the Dolphins as bad as anyone, but I don't think Hartline's comments change anything in and of themselves. "Trying to go along with the bully" seems like a pretty natural response and one of several within the cycle.
It's funny, I grew up in Foxboro and a kid 2 years ahead of me in high school ended up having a long NFL career. He was a classic bully in school -- threw kids into lockers, punched weaker kids, etc. As a kid who was bullied myself, I rooted against him throughout his playing days and was sincerely happy when he sustained a career-ending injury.
Football is full of neanderthals. Screw 'em.
Gee, this is like the Peter Gammons/Rob Neyer/Mike Mussina story.
I'll go with Tom Nalen.
Football is full of neanderthals. Screw 'em.
Gee, this is like the Peter Gammons/Rob Neyer/Mike Mussina story.
I'll go with Tom Nalen.
dwainw said:
I have been trying to come up with the right phrase, and I think "trying to go along with the bully" is the one I was looking for.
Jnai said:
dcmissle said:
You can still joke about things that make you uncomfortable, or try to pass off an insult by acting like you're in on the joke.
Regarding the N-word stuff, that happens in a lot of mixed-race locker rooms. Shit, other boxers would greet me by saying "My N****" to me, and I'm white. I don't know about others' experiences, but most mixed group friends I know throw that word around a lot in both directions. I never liked saying it, because it just tastes nasty in my mouth, but there are/were plenty of guys I trained with or am friends with who wouldn't have blinked if I had. Still, Richie clearly used it on the voicemails in a pejorative fashion, which makes it totally unacceptable.
soxhop411 said:
sodenj5 said:
This is absolutely insane. What is Philbin thinking? He has to stop players from talking about this. Every word they say to the media is an absolute disaster.
(Maybe the Miami media is typically friendly, but if so he's about to find out that the national media is not.)
And if he can't, he's completely lost control and should be fired.
I heard that interview, and I did think his statement about "Martin being brilliant" was interesting. The context was important -- the interviewer asked Williams if "what should Martin of done, he was in a no win situation" and Williams answered (I paraphrase) "I am not criticizing Martin's approach -- it was brilliant". Williams does think that Martin wanted out of the game, which I guess means the consequences of this approach (of not being hired by any NFL team ever again) weren't that important.pdaj said:
I know I'll receive mockery for this but... the "n" word is acceptable for a non black person to say how?! In what workplace is that ok? So my background is, like many of you, grad school private school edumacated etc. If I heard a colleague say the n word I don't think I'd respect them again. I just don't get how any workplace culture would embrace this kind of activity. Yeah, I know, I am very PC. I get that. But this is... the N word. A white person called a black person that and it was somehow ok? My mind is blown.