Rookie hazing & bullying: Miami guard Incognito indefinitely suspended
- Thread starter SeoulSoxFan
- Start date
sodenj5 said:
Maybe I totally misunderstood you: when we learn the whole story how is that going to change our minds? Because your explanation of why you think we don't know the whole story is that everybody seems to be standing behind RI--suggesting he has a defense--and that's just like "how people react to accusations of wrongdoing in their own social group" 101.
Holy hell internet warrior.
Well we haven't fully heard Incignito's side. We haven't fully heard Philbin's side. We have heard bits and pieces of Martin's side as I imagine his side leaking most of this information.
It's been like two days but apparently a lot of people here know what went down, when it went down and how each party reacted. God forbid someone plead ignorance to a hot take when a lot of information is still coming out.
Well we haven't fully heard Incignito's side. We haven't fully heard Philbin's side. We have heard bits and pieces of Martin's side as I imagine his side leaking most of this information.
It's been like two days but apparently a lot of people here know what went down, when it went down and how each party reacted. God forbid someone plead ignorance to a hot take when a lot of information is still coming out.
Did I just see a news tease of Incognito roid raging shirtless in a bar on cell camera? I've seen the voicemail transcript and code red report in here but not video. Am I going crazy?
Incognito caught using N-word at bar http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2013/11/06/erin-richie-incognito-n-word-rant-dolphins-suspension.cnn.html …JimBoSox9 said:
This video is way overblown. I'm not saying he's not an idiot for taking off his shirt and stamping around a bar, but he says "Mike Pouncey, n-----!" and "Who wants a piece?" in reference to his teammate, who is standing right there, and doesn't seem the least bit offended by it and whom he embraces during the video.soxhop411 said:
Judging by his reaction, it looks like someone tried to start some shit or was bothering Pouncey, and this was Incognito's reaction. It's hard to say because there's no context, just "watch Richie Incognito say the N word in a bar shirtless! OMGZ!"
Edit: A link to the full video referenced by CNN from TMZ. They give a little more backstory.
http://m.tmz.com/#Article/2013/11/04/richie-incognito-n-word-bar-rage-video
This is pretty awesome:
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
Colonel Joseph R. Philbin, Commanding Officer, National Football League, Miami, Florida.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
Have you ever spent time on a football team, son? Ever served on an offensive line?
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
Ever put your block in another lineman's hands, ask him to put his block in yours? We run plays, son. We run plays or people get sacked.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
Son, we live in a world that has offensive lines, and those lines have to be filled by 350-pound men with helmets. Who's gonna do it? You?
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Martin, and you curse the Dolphins' o-line. You have that luxury.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
You have the luxury of not knowing what coaches know. That Martin's departure, while tragic, probably saved Ryan Tannehill's life.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi
1h
And Richie Incognito's existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves quarterbacks' lives.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about on Twitter, you want him on that line. YOU NEED HIM ON THAT LINE.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi
1h
We use words like shiver, rip technique, smash. We use those words as a backbone of a life spent defending quarterbacks.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
You use them as a comment on Pro Football Talk.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
I have neither the TIME nor the INCLINATION to EXPLAIN MYSELF to a man who rises and sleeps under the fandom of the very team I coach...
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
...and then bitches on Twitter about the way I provide it.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
I would rather you just said "thank you" and bought a season ticket.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a helmet, and stand at left tackle.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you football fans think you're entitled to.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
*Did you order the code red?* YOU'RE GOD DAMN RIGHT I DID! - Joe Philbin
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
Colonel Joseph R. Philbin, Commanding Officer, National Football League, Miami, Florida.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1hHave you ever spent time on a football team, son? Ever served on an offensive line?
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
Ever put your block in another lineman's hands, ask him to put his block in yours? We run plays, son. We run plays or people get sacked.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
Son, we live in a world that has offensive lines, and those lines have to be filled by 350-pound men with helmets. Who's gonna do it? You?
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Martin, and you curse the Dolphins' o-line. You have that luxury.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
You have the luxury of not knowing what coaches know. That Martin's departure, while tragic, probably saved Ryan Tannehill's life.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi
1h
And Richie Incognito's existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves quarterbacks' lives.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about on Twitter, you want him on that line. YOU NEED HIM ON THAT LINE.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi
1h
We use words like shiver, rip technique, smash. We use those words as a backbone of a life spent defending quarterbacks.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
You use them as a comment on Pro Football Talk.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
I have neither the TIME nor the INCLINATION to EXPLAIN MYSELF to a man who rises and sleeps under the fandom of the very team I coach...
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
...and then bitches on Twitter about the way I provide it.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
I would rather you just said "thank you" and bought a season ticket.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a helmet, and stand at left tackle.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you football fans think you're entitled to.
Adam Jacobi @Adam_Jacobi1h
*Did you order the code red?* YOU'RE GOD DAMN RIGHT I DID! - Joe Philbin
kenneycb said:
Why let facts get in the way of our own assumptions, prejudices, and agendas? We have "leaked" information from unconfirmed, anonymous sources as proof! Waiting for the process to unfold and allowing all participants to communicate their sides is far less entertaining. Plus, it's not the Patriots involved this time. Yay!
A Few Good Linemen--I salute.
As if BB told AH to take Ridley out back and make sure the fumbling stopped. Oops.
As if BB told AH to take Ridley out back and make sure the fumbling stopped. Oops.
Of course we should get as much info as we can, but I just don't see what additional details could come out that would make me feel better about what Incognito did. What about Incognito's side of the story would make the situation any more acceptable? And that's even though I think there's a good chance that in Incognito's mind, he was just joshing around with a pal, and that Incognito is genuinely surprised that Martin felt so hurt.
Here's London Fletcher's take on the situation, where he calls what happened "just flat bullying" and "beyond the scope of anything that I’ve seen":
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2013/11/05/london-fletcher-dolphins-veteran-players-failed-to-properly-police-their-locker-room/
Here's London Fletcher's take on the situation, where he calls what happened "just flat bullying" and "beyond the scope of anything that I’ve seen":
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2013/11/05/london-fletcher-dolphins-veteran-players-failed-to-properly-police-their-locker-room/
So i have not read through this forum completely yet but my two cents are simple.
Organizations, businesses, and schools are cracking down on hazing like never before.
The fact it is in a NFL locker room makes zero difference. First and foremost the NFL is a business (even if its a non-profit entity) and like any business or organization hazing is illegal and leads to federal charges. Simply cutting the rookies hair and making them carry shoulder pads is hazing.
I'm am shocked a rookie with very little future in the NFL has not sued a team for workplace harassment.
I have no problem with hazing and may or may not been part of it at school. But that was not a business and did not effect any ones economic well being.
just my thought on the matter
Organizations, businesses, and schools are cracking down on hazing like never before.
The fact it is in a NFL locker room makes zero difference. First and foremost the NFL is a business (even if its a non-profit entity) and like any business or organization hazing is illegal and leads to federal charges. Simply cutting the rookies hair and making them carry shoulder pads is hazing.
I'm am shocked a rookie with very little future in the NFL has not sued a team for workplace harassment.
I have no problem with hazing and may or may not been part of it at school. But that was not a business and did not effect any ones economic well being.
just my thought on the matter
We don't have the all the facts about this case so its really hard to judge how much of this was an individual thing, how much was organizational and how much was cultural. That said, the fact that a guy with Incognito's reputation is making $4MM a year playing professional football speaks volumes about the sport (and perhaps sports in general).
While the superficial culture around football might change as a result of this - its reasonable to expect that the sort of hazing mentioned in this thread will be explicitly prohibited by most organizations and perhaps even the shield itself going forward - the type of person who succeeds at this level is not going to change. These guys are people who are willing to put themselves in significant harm's way, each and every day, to compete and make a living. Furthermore, they are in constant competition to keep their jobs and, in many cases, failure comes with a huge financial cost.
I am not suggesting that football fans explicitly condone abusive, offensive behavior but, at the end of the day, these are the guys who the people who follow the sport "want on the wall". Otto Von Bismarck might well have been talking about football programs rather than the legal process...
While the superficial culture around football might change as a result of this - its reasonable to expect that the sort of hazing mentioned in this thread will be explicitly prohibited by most organizations and perhaps even the shield itself going forward - the type of person who succeeds at this level is not going to change. These guys are people who are willing to put themselves in significant harm's way, each and every day, to compete and make a living. Furthermore, they are in constant competition to keep their jobs and, in many cases, failure comes with a huge financial cost.
I am not suggesting that football fans explicitly condone abusive, offensive behavior but, at the end of the day, these are the guys who the people who follow the sport "want on the wall". Otto Von Bismarck might well have been talking about football programs rather than the legal process...
This may be the first reference to the NFL as non-profit I have seen.brohirrum said:
Legally you are correct, though I'd be very interested in how a jury would react to this behavior in an NFL context. Down the line, however, for these two individuals and their future in the sport on a professional level, the only jury that matters is their peers, and with NFL players, I suspect RI is winning by a landslide.
People are kidding themselves if they think RI won't be picked up by another team based on what we know now.
smastroyin said:
I don't often get to do this, but I'm totally going to call attention to myself calling this a couple days ago.
That said, I'm also going to go ahead and disagree with myself and the tenor of the thread a bit. At least, according to the article, the toughen up stuff was ordered when he didn't show for non-mandatory OTA's as a rookie. That was a long time ago, and I'm not sure it directly relates to the current situation.
Speaking of that, only the NFLPA would allow teams to basically violate negotiated work schedules and not make a stink about it. I mean think about that. The kid doesn't show up for a thing which is expressly called "non-mandatory" and the coaches say "kick the shit out of this kid until he understands the way things are around here."
pdaj said:
Personally, this has nothing to do with what team I happen to root for on Sunday. I'm a human being and a father and someone who has a long history with bullying - on both sides of it. I certainly do have an agenda, prejudices and am willing to draw inferences or assumptions based on incomplete facts. That is, like, the basic definition of a message board poster. But my take here has nothing to do with laundry or team affiliation. I certainly understand why you would think a Patriots fan would be using this to 'stick it to the Dolphins' - it's a large part of your "prejudices, agenda and assumptions" - but were this happening ANYWHERE I'd feel the same about it and would have the same opinion.
See, I was a "Big Weirdo" growing up. I was also a coward, in that I did not fight back. I have sympathy and empathy for Jonathan Martin because I was physically assaulted through fifth, sixth and seventh grade, both in a team sports context and in general. I had cruel pranks played on me, was the butt of the jokes and had to go to hospital for a a broken nose and fingers when I was caught by a few of my tormentors outside the library (with my books) instead of going to football tryouts as a seventh grader.
And then, my family moved to another town (and not because I was being bullied, because Dad got transferred). And I was still big. On my first day at the new school, I was told by the vice principal (and football coach) that I could "be anyone I wanted to be. Start fresh." (and start for the 8th grade team) So I did. I became a bully. I picked on kids who were smaller. I played cruel pranks on other kids. I got a reputation as a "mean motherfucker". I took lunch money. I threw one small kid around during gym class, rolled him into a wrestling mat and sat on him while he cried as the other 8th grade football players laughed. I threw lots of punches and became a fixture in that vice principal's office for these actions. And I grew to hate myself.
So, when I got to ninth grade and another new school (same town), I decided to really follow the advice and became one of those high school kids who hated everything and everyone. I took up smoking, quit football and quit trying to make friends. As a freshman, I knocked the senior captain of the football team on his ass with one punch and told the other guys in the jackets to go fuck themselves. I had a reputation there as well - as the Big Outcast. And it was fine with me - no one fucked with me and I didn't have to deal with anyone picking on me.
Until one day in the 11th grade, while smoking behind the gym, I watched a pack of my classmates picking on a small 9th grader. There were six of them calling him a "faggot" and laughing while he cried and cowered. And I snapped. I broke two noses, five fingers and kicked the everliving shit out of three of the largest kids in that pack of assholes. It was one of the proudest moments of my life and one that forms the basis for the man I am today. I defended a kid who I didn't know from some assholes who were doing to him what I had had done to me when I was younger.
Oh, and the kid I threw into the wrestling mat and sat on? I sought him out and apologized. I told him why I did what I did and why I knew it was wrong and that I would spend the rest of my life regretting it. I made amends, paying for his broken glasses and working for free at his family farm on Saturdays for the next two years. And today, that man is my best friend and was the best man in my wedding.
Respectfully, my opinion on this issue has NOTHING to do with NFL team rooting interest. It has to do with my history as someone who was bullied, who was picked on, who was assaulted and who was humiliated. And it has to do with my history as someone who bullied other kids, who picked on other kids, who assaulted other kids and who humiliated other kids. And it has to do with choices I made to defend others and to work at being someone who resolved disputes with apologies and amends and not fists and hateful words.
I understand how powerless and helpless Jonathan Martin may have felt while his peers made him the butt of their pranks and jokes. I understand how afraid and cowardly Jonathan Martin may have felt when his family was threatened or when his own life was threatened. And I totally understand how Jonathan Martin felt when someone told him to "just fight back" against his tormentors. Because when you're not wired to be a bully, you feel even worse being the bully. There was never a time in my life where I liked who I was less than when I was the bully. I hated myself. And while I have no regrets about breaking noses and fingers to defend someone else, I didn't do it to make myself feel better or to "improve" my reputation. I did it to protect someone who needed to be protected. I did it because when it is six-on-one, it is the responsibility of SOMEONE to step up and help that one out. I am most proud that I worked my ass off to make amends to that kid I bullied because I was trying earn the respect of people who didn't deserve respect themselves. I realized that being a bully and humiliating others made ME the asshole who wasn't worthy of respect. And I resolved to change.
So, no...I don't feel that I need to wait for all sides of the story to come out. I know all sides of this story. I lived it. I have sympathy for Jonathan Martin and respect for him walking away. I am repulsed by Richie Incognito because I've been Richie Incognito, bully. I don't need anything other than the voicemail to judge Richie Incognito as guilty of bullying because I recognize his actions in my own, regrettable history.
And I really don't need to worry about the laundry or the rooting interest on Sunday to have a strong opinion about this issue. I could not care less that this is happening to Miami - I care that it IS happening in Miami. Were it happening in Foxboro, I'd be just as disgusted and outraged. You can believe that this about some stupid fan rivalry if you want but that would be using your "assumptions, prejudices and agendas" to excuse what is inexcusable behavior in a professional work environment or in a school or, really, anywhere in a world where people aren't assholes to each other.
singaporesoxfan said:
Well said. Racial slurs are not acceptable. Death threats are not acceptable. Coaches siccing a player with Incognito's history on a player they thought was "soft" is not acceptable. It's wrong and I have no trouble saying it is not acceptable, regardless of uniform color.
Personally, this has nothing to do with what team I happen to root for on Sunday. I'm a human being and a father and someone who has a long history with bullying - on both sides of it. I certainly do have an agenda, prejudices and am willing to draw inferences or assumptions based on incomplete facts. That is, like, the basic definition of a message board poster. But my take here has nothing to do with laundry or team affiliation. I certainly understand why you would think a Patriots fan would be using this to 'stick it to the Dolphins' - it's a large part of your "prejudices, agenda and assumptions" - but were this happening ANYWHERE I'd feel the same about it and would have the same opinion.
See, I was a "Big Weirdo" growing up. I was also a coward, in that I did not fight back. I have sympathy and empathy for Jonathan Martin because I was physically assaulted through fifth, sixth and seventh grade, both in a team sports context and in general. I had cruel pranks played on me, was the butt of the jokes and had to go to hospital for a a broken nose and fingers when I was caught by a few of my tormentors outside the library (with my books) instead of going to football tryouts as a seventh grader.
And then, my family moved to another town (and not because I was being bullied, because Dad got transferred). And I was still big. On my first day at the new school, I was told by the vice principal (and football coach) that I could "be anyone I wanted to be. Start fresh." (and start for the 8th grade team) So I did. I became a bully. I picked on kids who were smaller. I played cruel pranks on other kids. I got a reputation as a "mean motherfucker". I took lunch money. I threw one small kid around during gym class, rolled him into a wrestling mat and sat on him while he cried as the other 8th grade football players laughed. I threw lots of punches and became a fixture in that vice principal's office for these actions. And I grew to hate myself.
So, when I got to ninth grade and another new school (same town), I decided to really follow the advice and became one of those high school kids who hated everything and everyone. I took up smoking, quit football and quit trying to make friends. As a freshman, I knocked the senior captain of the football team on his ass with one punch and told the other guys in the jackets to go fuck themselves. I had a reputation there as well - as the Big Outcast. And it was fine with me - no one fucked with me and I didn't have to deal with anyone picking on me.
Until one day in the 11th grade, while smoking behind the gym, I watched a pack of my classmates picking on a small 9th grader. There were six of them calling him a "faggot" and laughing while he cried and cowered. And I snapped. I broke two noses, five fingers and kicked the everliving shit out of three of the largest kids in that pack of assholes. It was one of the proudest moments of my life and one that forms the basis for the man I am today. I defended a kid who I didn't know from some assholes who were doing to him what I had had done to me when I was younger.
Oh, and the kid I threw into the wrestling mat and sat on? I sought him out and apologized. I told him why I did what I did and why I knew it was wrong and that I would spend the rest of my life regretting it. I made amends, paying for his broken glasses and working for free at his family farm on Saturdays for the next two years. And today, that man is my best friend and was the best man in my wedding.
Respectfully, my opinion on this issue has NOTHING to do with NFL team rooting interest. It has to do with my history as someone who was bullied, who was picked on, who was assaulted and who was humiliated. And it has to do with my history as someone who bullied other kids, who picked on other kids, who assaulted other kids and who humiliated other kids. And it has to do with choices I made to defend others and to work at being someone who resolved disputes with apologies and amends and not fists and hateful words.
I understand how powerless and helpless Jonathan Martin may have felt while his peers made him the butt of their pranks and jokes. I understand how afraid and cowardly Jonathan Martin may have felt when his family was threatened or when his own life was threatened. And I totally understand how Jonathan Martin felt when someone told him to "just fight back" against his tormentors. Because when you're not wired to be a bully, you feel even worse being the bully. There was never a time in my life where I liked who I was less than when I was the bully. I hated myself. And while I have no regrets about breaking noses and fingers to defend someone else, I didn't do it to make myself feel better or to "improve" my reputation. I did it to protect someone who needed to be protected. I did it because when it is six-on-one, it is the responsibility of SOMEONE to step up and help that one out. I am most proud that I worked my ass off to make amends to that kid I bullied because I was trying earn the respect of people who didn't deserve respect themselves. I realized that being a bully and humiliating others made ME the asshole who wasn't worthy of respect. And I resolved to change.
So, no...I don't feel that I need to wait for all sides of the story to come out. I know all sides of this story. I lived it. I have sympathy for Jonathan Martin and respect for him walking away. I am repulsed by Richie Incognito because I've been Richie Incognito, bully. I don't need anything other than the voicemail to judge Richie Incognito as guilty of bullying because I recognize his actions in my own, regrettable history.
And I really don't need to worry about the laundry or the rooting interest on Sunday to have a strong opinion about this issue. I could not care less that this is happening to Miami - I care that it IS happening in Miami. Were it happening in Foxboro, I'd be just as disgusted and outraged. You can believe that this about some stupid fan rivalry if you want but that would be using your "assumptions, prejudices and agendas" to excuse what is inexcusable behavior in a professional work environment or in a school or, really, anywhere in a world where people aren't assholes to each other.
Well said. Racial slurs are not acceptable. Death threats are not acceptable. Coaches siccing a player with Incognito's history on a player they thought was "soft" is not acceptable. It's wrong and I have no trouble saying it is not acceptable, regardless of uniform color.
Do your experiences give you any empathy towards Incognito or is he too old to be given any latitude? Personally, I don't feel an ounce of sympathy or empathy towards the guy, but I'd be curious to get your take since you've been on both sides.
See, I was a "Big Weirdo" growing up. I was also a coward, in that I did not fight back. I have sympathy and empathy for Jonathan Martin because I was physically assaulted through fifth, sixth and seventh grade, both in a team sports context and in general. I had cruel pranks played on me, was the butt of the jokes and had to go to hospital for a a broken nose and fingers when I was caught by a few of my tormentors outside the library (with my books) instead of going to football tryouts as a seventh grader.
And then, my family moved to another town (and not because I was being bullied, because Dad got transferred). And I was still big. On my first day at the new school, I was told by the vice principal (and football coach) that I could "be anyone I wanted to be. Start fresh." (and start for the 8th grade team) So I did. I became a bully. I picked on kids who were smaller. I played cruel pranks on other kids. I got a reputation as a "mean motherfucker". I took lunch money. I threw one small kid around during gym class, rolled him into a wrestling mat and sat on him while he cried as the other 8th grade football players laughed. I threw lots of punches and became a fixture in that vice principal's office for these actions. And I grew to hate myself.
So, when I got to ninth grade and another new school (same town), I decided to really follow the advice and became one of those high school kids who hated everything and everyone. I took up smoking, quit football and quit trying to make friends. As a freshman, I knocked the senior captain of the football team on his ass with one punch and told the other guys in the jackets to go fuck themselves. I had a reputation there as well - as the Big Outcast. And it was fine with me - no one fucked with me and I didn't have to deal with anyone picking on me.
Until one day in the 11th grade, while smoking behind the gym, I watched a pack of my classmates picking on a small 9th grader. There were six of them calling him a "faggot" and laughing while he cried and cowered. And I snapped. I broke two noses, five fingers and kicked the everliving shit out of three of the largest kids in that pack of assholes. It was one of the proudest moments of my life and one that forms the basis for the man I am today. I defended a kid who I didn't know from some assholes who were doing to him what I had had done to me when I was younger.
Oh, and the kid I threw into the wrestling mat and sat on? I sought him out and apologized. I told him why I did what I did and why I knew it was wrong and that I would spend the rest of my life regretting it. I made amends, paying for his broken glasses and working for free at his family farm on Saturdays for the next two years. And today, that man is my best friend and was the best man in my wedding.
Respectfully, my opinion on this issue has NOTHING to do with NFL team rooting interest. It has to do with my history as someone who was bullied, who was picked on, who was assaulted and who was humiliated. And it has to do with my history as someone who bullied other kids, who picked on other kids, who assaulted other kids and who humiliated other kids. And it has to do with choices I made to defend others and to work at being someone who resolved disputes with apologies and amends and not fists and hateful words.
I understand how powerless and helpless Jonathan Martin may have felt while his peers made him the butt of their pranks and jokes. I understand how afraid and cowardly Jonathan Martin may have felt when his family was threatened or when his own life was threatened. And I totally understand how Jonathan Martin felt when someone told him to "just fight back" against his tormentors. Because when you're not wired to be a bully, you feel even worse being the bully. There was never a time in my life where I liked who I was less than when I was the bully. I hated myself. And while I have no regrets about breaking noses and fingers to defend someone else, I didn't do it to make myself feel better or to "improve" my reputation. I did it to protect someone who needed to be protected. I did it because when it is six-on-one, it is the responsibility of SOMEONE to step up and help that one out. I am most proud that I worked my ass off to make amends to that kid I bullied because I was trying earn the respect of people who didn't deserve respect themselves. I realized that being a bully and humiliating others made ME the asshole who wasn't worthy of respect. And I resolved to change.
So, no...I don't feel that I need to wait for all sides of the story to come out. I know all sides of this story. I lived it. I have sympathy for Jonathan Martin and respect for him walking away. I am repulsed by Richie Incognito because I've been Richie Incognito, bully. I don't need anything other than the voicemail to judge Richie Incognito as guilty of bullying because I recognize his actions in my own, regrettable history.
And I really don't need to worry about the laundry or the rooting interest on Sunday to have a strong opinion about this issue. I could not care less that this is happening to Miami - I care that it IS happening in Miami. Were it happening in Foxboro, I'd be just as disgusted and outraged. You can believe that this about some stupid fan rivalry if you want but that would be using your "assumptions, prejudices and agendas" to excuse what is inexcusable behavior in a professional work environment or in a school or, really, anywhere in a world where people aren't assholes to each other.
Well said. Racial slurs are not acceptable. Death threats are not acceptable. Coaches siccing a player with Incognito's history on a player they thought was "soft" is not acceptable. It's wrong and I have no trouble saying it is not acceptable, regardless of uniform color.
Do your experiences give you any empathy towards Incognito or is he too old to be given any latitude? Personally, I don't feel an ounce of sympathy or empathy towards the guy, but I'd be curious to get your take since you've been on both sides.
soxfan121 said:
I agree with Soxfan121 - there's something kind of tone-deaf in the "be a man" responses.
Apart from the valid psychological and sociological issues he mentioned, one of the reasons why it's particularly tone deaf is that we have a culture that prohibits self help for certain things. Meaning, you can taunt me all day long, but if I take a swing at you, I'm getting arrested. Or I'm getting sued. Or I'm getting fired. Furthermore, the Dolphins can be seen as a subset of our greater culture - that subculture has its own rules and pecking order and sliding scale of what you can and can't do.
I'm sure Martin made it clear that he wasn't enjoying what Incognito was doing. However, Incognito was able to continue with his behavior without impediment (and may have been overtly or tacitly encouraged to do so). The smaller subculture of the Dolphins was privileging itself over our larger normal culture about what types of things you can and can't do to individuals.
When that happens, the smaller subculture does not get some kind of free pass just because it thinks it's really really special. (As a completely obvious example, rape and sexual abuse is still forbidden in the military branches, even though there's an element in the military sub-culture that thinks it's somehow OK.)
Ergo, it's not incumbent on Martin to find a "least embarrassing solution" for Incognito or the team, it's incumbent on the team (as a body of individuals and/or as an organization) to stop or moderate Incognito's bad behavior, be it through social pressure (including talking it out) or workplace rules. Or, from another perspective, finding a different way to motivate Martin.
The team failed.
I hope Martin sues their pants off - because at the end of the day that's his option. He's not allowed, legally, or culturally (even within the team culture) to beat the shit out of Martin, to set up an opposing rookie-only union, to set up a rookie gang to fight back, to threaten Incognito or his parents, or to threaten those who controlled Incognito. It's not, in other words, the "level playing field" some commentators think it is.
Unbelievable post, Soxfan. I actually teared up a bit when you said that guy was your best man and sent the whole thing to my wife (I know, I'm a wuss â please don't hurt me!).
Anyway, agreed â I'd love to know whether you have any sympathy for RI in this. He looks like a pretty loathsome guy but as has been mentioned, he did experience bullying himself as a kid.
Edit: my wife's response: "I got goosebumps."
Anyway, agreed â I'd love to know whether you have any sympathy for RI in this. He looks like a pretty loathsome guy but as has been mentioned, he did experience bullying himself as a kid.
Edit: my wife's response: "I got goosebumps."
Soxfan, I am going to print that post and tuck it away. And in a few years when he is ready, I'm gonna show it to my son.
Good on you man.
Good on you man.
Thank you for such an amazing post. I am also going to save this for my son to show him in a few years.soxfan121 said:
Yeah, apologies for having nothing new to contribute to the conversation, but want to add another hat-tip to Soxfan. An excellent piece of writing about a frequently misunderstood (or perhaps mishandled) topic.
I'm waiting to hear what Chris Kouffman's take is before I respond to soxfan's post. He's taken Joe Philbin to task before, you know, and he is no fan of Jeff Ireland.
Seriously, though, magnificent post.
Seriously, though, magnificent post.
OilCanShotTupac said:
Perhaps he needs to talk to some of the other ex-players out there spouting off on radio and TV about how the locker room is different than other places. Someone on NFL Radio the other night was doing the whole "Have you ever been in an NFL locker room?" thing to a caller.
curly2 said:
A lot of this "you pay/I pay" stuff comes out to pay structure, doesn't it?
MLB rookies make dog shit for money (relatively speaking, of course) compared to the veterans. You earn your stripes, you make your money.
Up until very recently, NFL players were coming into the league and making money that they hadn't even earned yet. Check out the 2009 rookie salaries:
1. Detroit - QB, Matthew Stafford, Georgia - Signed (6-years, $72 million; $41.7 million guaranteed)
2. St. Louis - OT, Jason Smith, Baylor - Signed (6-years, $61.75M max; $33M guaranteed)
3. Kansas City - DE, Tyson Jackson, LSU - Signed (5-years, $57M; $31M guaranteed)
4. Seattle - LB, Aaron Curry, Wake Forest - Signed (6-years, $60M; $34M guaranteed)
5. NY Jets (fr. CLE) - QB, Mark Sanchez, USC - Signed (5-years; $50.5M real/$60M max; $28M guaranteed)
6. Cincinnati - OT, Andre Smith, Alabama - Signed (4-years, $26M; $21M guaranteed)
7. Oakland - WR, Darrius Heyward-Bey, Maryland - Signed (5-years, $38.25M real/$54M max; $23.5M guaranteed)
8. Jacksonville - OT, Eugene Monroe, Virginia - Signed (5-years, $35.4M; $19.2M guaranteed)
9. Green Bay - DT, B.J. Raji, Boston College - Signed (5-years, $28.5M; $17.7M guaranteed)
10. San Francisco - WR, Michael Crabtree, Texas Tech - Signed (6-years, $32M; $17M guaranteed)
11. Buffalo - DE, Aaron Maybin, Penn State - Signed (5-years, $24.6M: $14.24M guaranteed)
12. Denver - RB, Knowshon Moreno, Georgia - Signed (5-years, $23M max; $13.125M guaranteed)
13. Washington - DE, Brian Orakpo, Texas - Signed (5-years, $20M; $12.1M guaranteed)
14. New Orleans - CB, Malcolm Jenkins, Ohio State - Signed (5-years, $19M; $11M guaranteed)
15. Houston - LB, Brian Cushing, USC - Signed (5-years, $18M; $10.435M guaranteed)
16. San Diego - LB, Larry English, Northern Illinois - Signed (5-years, $17.95M; $9.905M guaranteed)
17. Tampa Bay (fr. CLE/NYJ) - QB, Josh Freeman, Kansas State - Signed (5-years, $36M; $10.245M guaranteed)
18. Denver (fr. CHI) - DE, Robert Ayers, Tennessee - Signed (5-years, $15.5M; $9.7M guaranteed)
19. Philadelphia (fr. CLE/TB) - WR, Jeremy Maclin, Missouri - Signed (5-years, $15.6M; $9.5M guaranteed)
20. Detroit (fr. DAL) - TE, Brandon Pettigrew, Oklahoma State - Signed (5-years, $14.6M max; $9.3965M guaranteed)
21. Cleveland (fr. PHI) - OC, Alex Mack, California - Signed (5-years, $15.175M max.; $9.265M guaranteed)
22. Minnesota - WR, Percy Harvin, Florida - Signed (5-years, $14.25M max; $8.425M guaranteed)
23. Baltimore (fr. NE) - OT, Michael Oher, Mississippi - Signed (5-years, $13.795M max; $7.82M guaranteed)
24. Atlanta - DT, Peria Jerry, Mississippi - Signed (5-years, $13.25M max; $7.555M guaranteed)
25. Miami - CB, Vontae Davis, Illinois - Signed (5-years, $13.3M max.; $7.345M guaranteed)
26. Green Bay (fr. NE/BAL) - LB, Clay Matthews, USC - Signed (5-years, $13.725M max; $7.105M guaranteed)
27. Indianapolis - RB, Donald Brown, UCONN - Signed (5-years, $12.835M; $6.845M guaranteed)
28. Buffalo (fr. PHI/CAR) - OC, Eric Wood, Louisville - Signed (5-years, $12.335M; $6.575M guaranteed)
29. NY Giants - WR, Hakeem Nicks, North Carolina - Signed (5-years, $12.225M; $6.575M guaranteed)
30. Tennessee - WR, Kenny Britt, Rutgers - Signed (5-years, $12.25M; $6.527M guaranteed)
31. Arizona - RB, Chris Wells, Ohio State - Signed (5-years, $11.8M max.; $6.345M guaranteed)
32. Pittsburgh - DE, Ziggy Hood, Missouri - Signed (5-years, $11.3M max.; $6.1M guaranteed)
Compare that to someone like Justin Upton, who in 2009 made 400K (his third year in the league) and put up .300/.366/.532. I'm not saying any of this is justified, but it's easy to see how veterans could get out of control knowing how much money some rookies were making. I mean, even second and third rounders in 2009 were on track to make over (or nearly) $1 million a year.
I wonder what the cause and effect are between the rookie pay scale changing, and us hearing more and more about rookies being forced to pay. Somewhere along the lines, there was going to be a breaking point. We might be there now.
Edit: I'd say "Good Post, Soxfan!", but you like to bully me in the RealFantasy Football Draft, so I think you're full of shit.
First, thanks to everyone who found value in that post. More for you in a few paragraphs...
This is a great question and an important one. I am conflicted because I am aware that Richie Incognito has said he was bullied when he was a child. But our experiences diverged greatly - Incognito chose to become a bully in response to being bullied. And apparently, he never chose to examine his own actions or to change his own behavior as he grew into a man.
And as I believe Reverend pointed out (I always think the most intelligent comments in a thread can be attributed to Rev, so my apologies if it was someone else), this is too common. The bullied can become bullies and the abused can become abusers. There's definitely some intelligent discussion to be had as to why that happens but I'm not the one to provide it. And I am repulsed and appalled by Incognito's apparent indiscriminate use of the n-word (the voicemail and the video). I'm positive that someone more intelligent than I (Rev? Ta-Nehisi Coates?) can explain why the use of the n-word is so repulsive and appalling better than I. Suffice to say, like the f-word (which I used above to provide context), it is a word that has been used to control and humiliate and IMO, it displays a fundamental lack of character and awareness.
In my experience, I had to make a conscious choice to change my behavior. I had to realize why I hated myself for my own actions and then I had to take action to change my own behavior. And I am NOT claiming to be 'holier-than-thou' or that this change came from some superiority of character. I had lots of people who challenged me to examine my behavior and my actions and it took LOTS of positive influence from others for me to realize the error of my ways. The referenced vice principal was one. School counselors, teachers, my parents, the parents of other kids...it took the efforts of many people to make me aware of what I was doing and how I was hurting myself and others. I got lucky - the vice principal told the high school football coach that I wasn't "worth the time", so I didn't have a coach or an authority figure encouraging my behavior. I didn't have a father telling me that my actions were acceptable - quite the opposite. My dad was never more disappointed in me or angry at me after some of my bullying incidents. Another parent - and I honestly can't remember his name - told me how much I had hurt his son, not with my fists but with my words. Luckily...these repeated messages got through and I was able to change. The father of my (now) best friend has told me, years after I worked at his farm, that he wanted to beat my ass with a shovel for what I did to his son. And he didn't - he let me work on his property and make amends. It took all those people and more for me to recognize what I had done and how I needed to change.
So...Richie Incognito obviously did not have my experience. He was encouraged and influenced by people who had a different definition of what it is to be a "man". He was punished for some misdeeds and was not punished for others. He was not challenged to change his behavior - he was, at times, enabled and made to feel that what he was doing was "right" and "for the team". Undoubtedly, many "men" helped make Richie Incognito into the "man" he is today. But that does not excuse Incognito's lack of awareness or introspection - it just explains how Incognito became the guy who thought that "I'll kill you" or "I'll slap your mom" or "I'll shit in your mouth" were acceptable motivation techniques.
I understand Richie Incognito had a different experience and that his experience (and his mentors) shaped him into the person he is today. And it is not what I find acceptable. I judge Richie Incognito to be a bad "man" because he thinks it is acceptable to hurt or threaten other people and to use racial slurs. If I feel empathy for Incognito, it is in his lack of the "right" kind of mentors and the lack of MEN in his life who should have told him that treating people this way is not acceptable. I don't mean to suggest Incognito is not responsible for his actions - he is and he will be held accountable for those actions. But I know that without the influences and actions of others, I might have become the same type of man - the kind who thinks that it is ok to use racial slurs or death threats as "motivation".
Really, it comes down to the fact that the MEN in my life found my behavior repulsive and appalling - and let me know they found it repulsive and appalling. And then it was on me to change that behavior. So...I am genuinely touched that some of you will share my experience with your sons/children. Because it takes a real man to walk away. It takes a real man to help someone change. It takes a real man to say that "this is not acceptable behavior". It takes many, many positive influences for someone to truly change. And it takes REAL bravery to stand up and say "THIS SHIT IS NOT OK!" to a crowd of people who think that what they are doing is "just part of the game". I admire Jonathan Martin for walking away. There is no doubt in my mind that Jonathan Martin was called "Big Weirdo" for the first time in Miami. Martin, if he is the man he is reported to be, turned the other cheek for YEARS when teammates or bullies challenged him. Jonathan Martin, for not answering hate with hate, is a real man and worthy of admiration and respect.
I am so thankful today that I had people in my life who cared enough about me to tell me what an asshole I was and how I had hurt others. I wouldn't be here, that's for sure. So, if these words can help someone else change or avoid becoming a bully...then I am eternally grateful and very lucky to have that opportunity. And I wish Richie Incognito had had the same opportunity.
Still, use of the n-word is not acceptable. Death threats are not acceptable. And you truly reap what you sow in life, so Richie Incognito is getting what he deserves. Whether he changes his behavior or uses this to find the strength to make amends is now up to him.
twibnotes said:
This is a great question and an important one. I am conflicted because I am aware that Richie Incognito has said he was bullied when he was a child. But our experiences diverged greatly - Incognito chose to become a bully in response to being bullied. And apparently, he never chose to examine his own actions or to change his own behavior as he grew into a man.
And as I believe Reverend pointed out (I always think the most intelligent comments in a thread can be attributed to Rev, so my apologies if it was someone else), this is too common. The bullied can become bullies and the abused can become abusers. There's definitely some intelligent discussion to be had as to why that happens but I'm not the one to provide it. And I am repulsed and appalled by Incognito's apparent indiscriminate use of the n-word (the voicemail and the video). I'm positive that someone more intelligent than I (Rev? Ta-Nehisi Coates?) can explain why the use of the n-word is so repulsive and appalling better than I. Suffice to say, like the f-word (which I used above to provide context), it is a word that has been used to control and humiliate and IMO, it displays a fundamental lack of character and awareness.
In my experience, I had to make a conscious choice to change my behavior. I had to realize why I hated myself for my own actions and then I had to take action to change my own behavior. And I am NOT claiming to be 'holier-than-thou' or that this change came from some superiority of character. I had lots of people who challenged me to examine my behavior and my actions and it took LOTS of positive influence from others for me to realize the error of my ways. The referenced vice principal was one. School counselors, teachers, my parents, the parents of other kids...it took the efforts of many people to make me aware of what I was doing and how I was hurting myself and others. I got lucky - the vice principal told the high school football coach that I wasn't "worth the time", so I didn't have a coach or an authority figure encouraging my behavior. I didn't have a father telling me that my actions were acceptable - quite the opposite. My dad was never more disappointed in me or angry at me after some of my bullying incidents. Another parent - and I honestly can't remember his name - told me how much I had hurt his son, not with my fists but with my words. Luckily...these repeated messages got through and I was able to change. The father of my (now) best friend has told me, years after I worked at his farm, that he wanted to beat my ass with a shovel for what I did to his son. And he didn't - he let me work on his property and make amends. It took all those people and more for me to recognize what I had done and how I needed to change.
So...Richie Incognito obviously did not have my experience. He was encouraged and influenced by people who had a different definition of what it is to be a "man". He was punished for some misdeeds and was not punished for others. He was not challenged to change his behavior - he was, at times, enabled and made to feel that what he was doing was "right" and "for the team". Undoubtedly, many "men" helped make Richie Incognito into the "man" he is today. But that does not excuse Incognito's lack of awareness or introspection - it just explains how Incognito became the guy who thought that "I'll kill you" or "I'll slap your mom" or "I'll shit in your mouth" were acceptable motivation techniques.
I understand Richie Incognito had a different experience and that his experience (and his mentors) shaped him into the person he is today. And it is not what I find acceptable. I judge Richie Incognito to be a bad "man" because he thinks it is acceptable to hurt or threaten other people and to use racial slurs. If I feel empathy for Incognito, it is in his lack of the "right" kind of mentors and the lack of MEN in his life who should have told him that treating people this way is not acceptable. I don't mean to suggest Incognito is not responsible for his actions - he is and he will be held accountable for those actions. But I know that without the influences and actions of others, I might have become the same type of man - the kind who thinks that it is ok to use racial slurs or death threats as "motivation".
Really, it comes down to the fact that the MEN in my life found my behavior repulsive and appalling - and let me know they found it repulsive and appalling. And then it was on me to change that behavior. So...I am genuinely touched that some of you will share my experience with your sons/children. Because it takes a real man to walk away. It takes a real man to help someone change. It takes a real man to say that "this is not acceptable behavior". It takes many, many positive influences for someone to truly change. And it takes REAL bravery to stand up and say "THIS SHIT IS NOT OK!" to a crowd of people who think that what they are doing is "just part of the game". I admire Jonathan Martin for walking away. There is no doubt in my mind that Jonathan Martin was called "Big Weirdo" for the first time in Miami. Martin, if he is the man he is reported to be, turned the other cheek for YEARS when teammates or bullies challenged him. Jonathan Martin, for not answering hate with hate, is a real man and worthy of admiration and respect.
I am so thankful today that I had people in my life who cared enough about me to tell me what an asshole I was and how I had hurt others. I wouldn't be here, that's for sure. So, if these words can help someone else change or avoid becoming a bully...then I am eternally grateful and very lucky to have that opportunity. And I wish Richie Incognito had had the same opportunity.
Still, use of the n-word is not acceptable. Death threats are not acceptable. And you truly reap what you sow in life, so Richie Incognito is getting what he deserves. Whether he changes his behavior or uses this to find the strength to make amends is now up to him.
Soxfan121, I appreciate your willingness to share your experience and perspective. Very personal and very poignant.
I've been reluctant to post much about this as I am in most threads since I rarely have more to offer than what's been already said. Also, as a life long diehard Dolphins fan I fully acknowledge that I desperately want something to come out--anything at this point--that will mitigate the extent of the team's involvement and/or culpability in all of this. With the bits and pieces of information flying out fast and furious from all directions, some of them just flat out bizarre, I keep thinking something will come up to provide a reasonable explanation for some aspects of this. Needless to say, I'm still waiting. And while I wait with everyone else, my heart goes out to Jonathan Martin and what he is now forced to endure for the indefinite future, both personally and professionally.
With that said, the one thing that I still can't wrap my head around is how, even within the extreme culture of the NFL where violence and constant challenges to one's "manhood" are the norm, on a team with some 60 players and I don't know how many coaches, not one of them (as far as we know to this point) stood up and put a stop (or at least a limit) to the nonsense at some point before that nonsense turned into disgusting harassment and abuse. And to my knowledge, not one of them has yet directly spoken up against it, not even off the record! At this point, I realize they've put themselves in a position of legally being better off shutting their effin' mouths, so that opportunity has passed. But I'm clinging to a sliver of hope that details will eventually emerge that some players and coaches at least tried to take a stand, and for the love of god, didn't condone the behavior as it happened.
One last thing as a point of reflection. Do I/we as rabid fans of this brutal sport bear any responsibility whatsoever for embracing the craziness that football represents and the destructiveness it can lead to? Is the issue of concussions/brain damage, for example, part of this discussion? I mean, it's a game--it's a sport--and I love the athleticism, the physicality, the raw brutality regularly on display. But it's a primal display, and as a man who never had one ounce of the physical ability or courage to participate in it on anything close to the level of the NFL, how do I justify the time, money, and enthusiasm I direct toward this sport, knowing full well the physical and psychological damage it causes? There's nothing unique in those questions, but certainly this has become a unique opportunity to re-examine what I am and what I'm not willing to accept from the people and organizations who have created and operate within the extreme culture of the NFL.
I've been reluctant to post much about this as I am in most threads since I rarely have more to offer than what's been already said. Also, as a life long diehard Dolphins fan I fully acknowledge that I desperately want something to come out--anything at this point--that will mitigate the extent of the team's involvement and/or culpability in all of this. With the bits and pieces of information flying out fast and furious from all directions, some of them just flat out bizarre, I keep thinking something will come up to provide a reasonable explanation for some aspects of this. Needless to say, I'm still waiting. And while I wait with everyone else, my heart goes out to Jonathan Martin and what he is now forced to endure for the indefinite future, both personally and professionally.
With that said, the one thing that I still can't wrap my head around is how, even within the extreme culture of the NFL where violence and constant challenges to one's "manhood" are the norm, on a team with some 60 players and I don't know how many coaches, not one of them (as far as we know to this point) stood up and put a stop (or at least a limit) to the nonsense at some point before that nonsense turned into disgusting harassment and abuse. And to my knowledge, not one of them has yet directly spoken up against it, not even off the record! At this point, I realize they've put themselves in a position of legally being better off shutting their effin' mouths, so that opportunity has passed. But I'm clinging to a sliver of hope that details will eventually emerge that some players and coaches at least tried to take a stand, and for the love of god, didn't condone the behavior as it happened.
One last thing as a point of reflection. Do I/we as rabid fans of this brutal sport bear any responsibility whatsoever for embracing the craziness that football represents and the destructiveness it can lead to? Is the issue of concussions/brain damage, for example, part of this discussion? I mean, it's a game--it's a sport--and I love the athleticism, the physicality, the raw brutality regularly on display. But it's a primal display, and as a man who never had one ounce of the physical ability or courage to participate in it on anything close to the level of the NFL, how do I justify the time, money, and enthusiasm I direct toward this sport, knowing full well the physical and psychological damage it causes? There's nothing unique in those questions, but certainly this has become a unique opportunity to re-examine what I am and what I'm not willing to accept from the people and organizations who have created and operate within the extreme culture of the NFL.
soxfan121 said:
Not trying to shortchange the entire response - and both of your last two responses have been spot on, in content and tonality - but I feel that the bolded comment is a point that needs to be driven home.
There are too many people saying or implying that by walking away instead of "following procedure" that Jonathan Martin somehow bears responsibility for this shitshow. That simply could not be farther from the truth.
- The "process" that was set up was for Martin to bring his concerns to a "leadership committee" that included his tormentor. Anyone who thinks that's what Martin should have done need to come look at this bridge over here that I have for sale.
- "Toughness" is a virtue that coaches treasure above all else. This is a lesson that Colt McCoy learned the hard way when his father complained publicly about the fact that his son was put back into an NFL game after suffering an obvious concussion. (It's important to note that despite all of the rhetoric from the NFL about the importance of player safety, they have yet to utter a word about the fact that the Browns essentially blackballed Colt McCoy because his father would not stay silent in the face of the team's refusal to follow the NFL's policy on concussions.) The example is not directly on point, but given the importance of "toughness" there is no context under which I believe that an NFL coach would ever significantly discipline a player for hazing another player. More to the point, the only player who would pay a price for reporting this to the team would be the victim. Every NFL player knows this. Jonathon Martin certainly does.
- NFL culture is most certainly a contributing factor here. Whether that is a mitigating factor that needs to be addressed when doling out punishment to the Dolphins or Incognito is for others to decide. But it does not shift any blame to the victim.
In this case, Martin did not resort to violence - he walked away and is getting counseling. And for his trouble, he has people talking about how he is suicidal - as if this was (1) relevant, or (2) a sign of weakness - or that he needed to "man up" and deal with this in a fashion that is less destructive to his team, as if that should be Martin's concern.
Jonathan Martin is a hero for walking away. Period.
There's an active investigation by the league on the matter with a potential lawsuit coming. They'd be dumb to not do it.Devizier said:
sodenj5 said:
soxhop411 said:
I thought that was an instructive set of consecutive posts.
sodenj5 said:
dcmissle said:
I'm seeing more and more current and former players speaking out against Incognito and the Dolphins. This is a good thing.
There is, perhaps, opportunity here. As per what I posted earlier and soxfan121's most excellent posts, perhaps we can elevate this to a discussion of paradigms.
kenneycb said:
What does this mean? You are acting as if we have not seen reports as to what is in the texts, voicemails, etc. And if the reports are accurate, this evidence is dispositive. If you don't agree, I challenge you to come up with a context in which the (allegedly) sickening racism isn't as bad as it looks.
Second point is this: we're not in court and the presumption of innocence doesn't apply. It's a truism that information will eventually come out that will refine our view of things, but to pretend that we don't have any reason to make judgments about Incognito right now is disingenuous in the extreme.
Reverend said:
The comments from London Fletcher - linked up thread by singaporesoxfan - are really, really good at providing this context. Read the whole piece but this is the money quote IMO:
It takes ONE London Fletcher to cool this situation off. Just one man to step up and say "this isn't right". One person to make the group stop and think. Maybe that one person doesn't end the situation but one person would have made Martin feel like he had an ally. Had that happened, Martin probably doesn't walk out and the voicemail never becomes a public issue.
"All it takes for evil to succeed is for a few good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke (h/t to "Sleepy Hollow", which featured this quote and its meaning prominently in the latest episode)
Soxfan, that post just me weep like a baby. I was a victim as a kid too - and worse, got blamed & punished hard when, after having grown a bit, snapped & beat the living shit out of one of the worst offenders (though it did put an end to the bullying).
There's a line between good natured ball-busting, and bullying/harassment/possibly worse, and I don't think the line is all that blurry. People know the difference.
There's a line between good natured ball-busting, and bullying/harassment/possibly worse, and I don't think the line is all that blurry. People know the difference.
soxfan, those were tremendous, tremendous posts. Thank you.
Something else that I was thinking about: we all remember the incident a few years back with Latrell Sprewell physically attacking P.J. Carlesimo, right?
IIRC, there weren't many people praising Sprewell for handling his issue with Carlesimo "like a man," but there are a lot of people saying that Martin should essentially have pulled a Sprewell on Incognito, and that he's a pussy because he didn't.
The obvious differences are that Icognito was abusive to Martin, while Carlesimo was not abusing Sprewell, so there wasn't the same provocation; and, of course, that Carlesimo was Sprewell's boss, not another player. Those are very big differences.
Nevertheless - those who are holding out the locker room as a different kind of place, where the law of the jungle prevails, shouldn't have a problem with what Sprewell did, right? He took matters into his own hands, like a man should, right?
I realize this is stretching a point to make a point, but still.
Something else that I was thinking about: we all remember the incident a few years back with Latrell Sprewell physically attacking P.J. Carlesimo, right?
IIRC, there weren't many people praising Sprewell for handling his issue with Carlesimo "like a man," but there are a lot of people saying that Martin should essentially have pulled a Sprewell on Incognito, and that he's a pussy because he didn't.
The obvious differences are that Icognito was abusive to Martin, while Carlesimo was not abusing Sprewell, so there wasn't the same provocation; and, of course, that Carlesimo was Sprewell's boss, not another player. Those are very big differences.
Nevertheless - those who are holding out the locker room as a different kind of place, where the law of the jungle prevails, shouldn't have a problem with what Sprewell did, right? He took matters into his own hands, like a man should, right?
I realize this is stretching a point to make a point, but still.
Along similar lines of what OilCanShotTupac said, I think there's a double standard going on here with people blaming Philbin for not having enough control, and criticizing Schiano for trying to have too much control. Fact is, there are very very few coaches who can command the respect of an NFL roster enough to prevent something like this from happening.
And that's because NFL players are insane. Not all of them, but a much higher percentage than the rest of the population. Because it's an advantageous trait to have on the field. And when you start throwing large amounts of money, alcohol, drugs, and steroids/testosterone into the mix, it does become totally different than the rest of society. I couldn't disagree more with Tom Jackson's assessment. It's naive to treat NFL teams like a typical 9 to 5 office environment
When you put a bunch of mentally unstable people in a stressful group situation over a long period of time, shit like this is bound to happen, and I'm sure worse stuff has gone on in other locker rooms. Not excusing it at all, I think Incognito is a psychopath and needs to be punished severely. And strict rules need to be put in place to protect victims.
And that's because NFL players are insane. Not all of them, but a much higher percentage than the rest of the population. Because it's an advantageous trait to have on the field. And when you start throwing large amounts of money, alcohol, drugs, and steroids/testosterone into the mix, it does become totally different than the rest of society. I couldn't disagree more with Tom Jackson's assessment. It's naive to treat NFL teams like a typical 9 to 5 office environment
When you put a bunch of mentally unstable people in a stressful group situation over a long period of time, shit like this is bound to happen, and I'm sure worse stuff has gone on in other locker rooms. Not excusing it at all, I think Incognito is a psychopath and needs to be punished severely. And strict rules need to be put in place to protect victims.
Amazing post, Soxfan. Bullying is an often misunderstood subject and that post just nails it. I am a teacher and, rest assured, I will be sharing that story with my students. It's absolutely amazing that you became best friends with the kid you bullied after making amends. I really hope that you share this story with more than just the SOSH board.
Truly inspiring!
As far as the Martin situation goes, you're 100% on the mark in saying that it's all about the "adults", whether the ones in your life or the coach/management of a pro sports team to set the limits of what is acceptable. Bullying is all about power and if those more powerful that Incognito let him have free rein then it's essentially tacit agreement. Wouldn't surprise me at all if they told him something like "Toughen Martin up, we don't care how you do it, just do it." A good thing that Martin has enough strength to walk away before things got even worse...
Truly inspiring!
As far as the Martin situation goes, you're 100% on the mark in saying that it's all about the "adults", whether the ones in your life or the coach/management of a pro sports team to set the limits of what is acceptable. Bullying is all about power and if those more powerful that Incognito let him have free rein then it's essentially tacit agreement. Wouldn't surprise me at all if they told him something like "Toughen Martin up, we don't care how you do it, just do it." A good thing that Martin has enough strength to walk away before things got even worse...
From Armando Salguero's blog in the Miami Herald: Richie Incognito, according to players, was an "honorary black guy."
http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2013/11/richie-incognito-considered-black-in-dolphins-locker-room.html
I have no idea what to make of this.
http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2013/11/richie-incognito-considered-black-in-dolphins-locker-room.html
I have no idea what to make of this.
soxfan121 said:
One of my favorite things about this sub-forum is the frequency with which our football fandom turns into a vehicle for discussing important social issues.
And I heartily agree here--this is Not. About. The Laundry. Or if it is, it damned well shouldn't be. One of my other favorite things about SoSH is that we strive to be, well, better. I couldn't participate in most other sports message boards as the allowable behavior and communication is inconsistent with important ethical considerations I hold. I wish we could be better on gender issues, but we're solid on other stuff. To me, we're working on a paradigm shift, where being a good sports fan is bound up with effective and civil communication, thoughtful analysis and a rejection of hatefulness. For a sports culture, this is a huge deal, and speaks I think to soxfan121's discussion of reconsidering what it is to be a man.
"Fan" is obviously short for "fanatic." There is a lack or even a contradiction of rationality involved. It can be wonderful when it allows us to create common bonds through shared passion, but we ought always stay vigilant lest passions drive us to lose sight of important considerations of humanity that then coarsen us.
Van Everyman said:
soxfan121 said:
Excellent discussion--and you do me great honor to include me in such, thank you. And we've not gotten to the greatest problem in the issue of assigning personal responsibility in the context of modern understandings of socialization and culture. I really love this forum.
I'm going to push this a step further, though. Incognito didn't just not have MEN in his life to step up and offer another model of manhood. In fact, we have strong reason to believe that his odious and destructive model of manhood was encouraged by those around him. This is disgusting, but it's a reality in our society that this happens. So in a sense, Incognito is a victim too. Contemporary gender theory has increasingly taken to looking at how traditional gender roles are bad not just for the harm certain kinds of "manliness" do to women both physically and mentally, but the harm it does to the men who feel the need to conform to these restrictive and harmful practices and the stress of constantly safeguarding that identity.* soxfan121, I think, does a wonderful job illustrating some of the tensions here--he voluntarily chose, for a time, to be someone he didn't want to be. That should give us pause when we consider the human being as the rational animal; one does not need to be religious to understand where the doctrine of human beings as fallen creatures comes from.
Twibnotes's and others questions of saxfan121 here made me think of the Buddhist tradition that views humans as hurting themselves through manifesting their own suffering (inelegantly stated). We struggle because we're unhappy. It's quite possible that Incognito is a raging asshole because he, too, is suffering. On a good day, I can get in touch with that, and feel sympathy and even empathy--we all, at times, act out on our fears and pain. Yet at the same time, to take a line from Grosse Pointe Blank: "Why didn't you ever learn that it's wrong?" A key tension in the Buddhist tradition (which is all about tensions--middle path, yo) is that we still want justice and even if we had unconditional love, that would not necessarily imply unconditional tolerance of all behaviors. In the Rosetta Stone of kung fu movies, 36 Chambers of Shaolin, a bad guy is getting his ass beat by a Shaolin monk and suggests that as a Buddhist monk, the monk should forgive him and relent, to which the monk replies, "Even Buddha punished evil." Jesus said turn the other cheek and Socrates was characterized by Plato as one who would never prosecute another, but it's not clear that we can run a society this way, bringing about Machiavelli's view that one cannot be a pure Christian, at least as many conceive of the idea, and engage in politics at the same time.
Incognito is likely a wretched soul, although I have no way of knowing. But even assuming he is, this shit must stop. It's an infection, and it begets more of the same. AverageReds is right--perhaps the part of this story that we should find most chilling is that everyone is so stunned that, when confronted with this, Martin chose to just walk away.
*For anyone interested in this, there is a wonderful short piece by a guy named John Stontenberg, a former college football player, titled, "How Men Have (A) Sex: An Address to College Students" where he discusses how the insight that humans don't just two sexes that people have to conform to basically salvaged his life.
