Rookie hazing & bullying: Miami guard Incognito indefinitely suspended

[SMU_Sox]

Eh - I read it. I get it man. I can relate to a lot of what 121 said in addition. It's just the use of the n-word that shocks me to my core. Shocks me a lot more than alpha male jock bullying to the extreme. That I can buy. But the n word? That's just so far out of mainstream that I still have trouble believing it.
 
 
Look sodi, I have an easier time understanding why the $30,000 meals on the rookies and extreme hazing happened (buck naked duct taped to the goal post).

 

[kenneycb]

The sad thing is, when we look back on this in a year, 2 years, 5-10 years, whose name will we remember? Martin? Probably not. Incognito? Isn't that ironic?

Neither in a month after this story runs through the news cycle.

 

[ChefDJW]

Neither in a month after this story runs through the news cycle.

True.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

If it's really true that the Dolphins ordered the players not to talk, but they decided to anyway, isn't that telling and pretty consistent with the underlying story?  
 
Isn't that exactly the kind of non-existent control and supervision that leads to a situation where this can happen?  
 
After hearing everything there is to hear so far and knowing there is likely more to come, I guess I am trying to have an open mind about much of it.  I am hearing what people are saying in the press about the slippery nature of locker-room race relations and legitimately trying to understand it as something other than the blatant rationalization that it appears.  I'm trying to keep an open mind about the possibility that Martin is some nefarious plotter who set this all up, despite the seeming absurdity of the proposition.  And I'm even trying to keep an open mind about the texts and the voice mail -- trying to fit it into some box that I understand where people who are pals give each other shit.  Here's the part that I can't get past -- the very end of the voice mail.  "I'll kill you."   While we all can debate the sincerity of the threat and the way it was perceived, that is simply not something that someone says in any context with which I am familiar if it's not menacing.  Who says that?  Ever?  Shit down your throat?  Sure, maybe that's some archetypal movie line stereotype of joking intimidation.  But "I'll kill you"?  Am I focusing too much on that?  It is fundamentally affecting my entire view of the situation and preventing me but having anything but immense skepticism that this story can possibly be anything other than exactly what it appears to be -- a borderline sociopathic bully pushed and hazed a kid to the edge, causing him give up his career for not wanting to deal with it anymore.  

 

[kenneycb]

Eh - I read it. I get it man. I can relate to a lot of what 121 said in addition. It's just the use of the n-word that shocks me to my core. Shocks me a lot more than alpha male jock bullying to the extreme. That I can buy. But the n word? That's just so far out of mainstream that I still have trouble believing it.

It's not too surprising given it's prevalence on pop culture, with hip hop being the best example. A lot if white kids don't censor themselves when rapping along to, say, 2Pac.

 

[Rovin Romine]

Eh - I read it. I get it man. I can relate to a lot of what 121 said in addition. It's just the use of the n-word that shocks me to my core. Shocks me a lot more than alpha male jock bullying to the extreme. That I can buy. But the n word? That's just so far out of mainstream that I still have trouble believing it.
 
 
Look sodi, I have an easier time understanding why the $30,000 meals on the rookies and extreme hazing happened (buck naked duct taped to the goal post).

 
You see it (and hear it) a lot in the thug/drug culture.  It's a way of identifying with a particular group.  I've heard white and hispanic guys use this a lot, but only with people they know.  You can think of it in that context as basically a synonym for "my brother."  In fact I hear "N" way more than "brother."
 
Personally I think it's kind of sad.  I mean, great to reclaim/own words and so forth, but that one should be let go and buried.  

 

[Marciano490]

Eh - I read it. I get it man. I can relate to a lot of what 121 said in addition. It's just the use of the n-word that shocks me to my core. Shocks me a lot more than alpha male jock bullying to the extreme. That I can buy. But the n word? That's just so far out of mainstream that I still have trouble believing it.
 
 
Look sodi, I have an easier time understanding why the $30,000 meals on the rookies and extreme hazing happened (buck naked duct taped to the goal post).

 
 

It's not too surprising given it's prevalence on pop culture, with hip hop being the best example. A lot if white kids don't censor themselves when rapping along to, say, 2Pac.

 
It's beyond just rapping along to 2Pac (or someone from the last 10 years) with the windows up.
 
I'm not trying to champion use of the n-word.  I personally don't use it, but, like I said, it's pretty common, and I even think it can be innocuous when said without malice.

 

[soxfan121]

 


 

Mob mentality wins out every time.

 
Hey Lavar Arrington - you've made a point, it just isn't the point you think it is. You are literally the Penn State apologist trying to blame the media and "the mob" for exposing what Jerry Sandusky and Joe Paterno did. And it is going to work out just as well for you as it worked out for them. 
 
The Dolphins players were told to shut up publicly by the head coach and instead, they've declared themselves the victims. What a colossally unfunny joke. Joe Philbin has no control on his locker room and his players don't have the sense to get out of the way of the train (of public perception) barrelling down the tracks. 
 
The "mob" - which is a very LARGE segment of the general public, and which the NFL wants to retain/attract as fans - had already decided that bullying was unacceptable behavior. Like sexual abuse had been decided by the "mob" to be an unacceptable behavior. When Incognito chose to make a public statement that contained no contrition, no apology and no awareness for why the "mob" was upset, he sealed his fate. When Dolphins players decided to defy their head coach's order to stop talking about it publicly, they confirmed the "mob's" opinion that the inmates are running the asylum. And when the "mob" decided to turn it's attention to this issue - brought on by the actions of Dolphins players and management - they guaranteed that the Ginger Hammer will be taking the whole Dolphins organization to the woodshed. 

 
Get ready for ESPN and Jon Gruden to take a HUGE shit in the Dolphins collective mouths on Monday night. 

 
 

I'm not trying to champion use of the n-word.  I personally don't use it, but, like I said, it's pretty common, and I even think it can be innocuous when said without malice.

 
Like when it's not accompanied by "I'll kill you"?

 

[smastroyin]

I should go back and dig, but one of the early articles quoted talked about how an NFL locker room is really a black man's environment.  In that environment, it is not surprising that the players themselves would police the use of the n word.  It speaks to something (I'm not smart enough to know what) that no players have come out and said the same thing you have SMU.  So I would think it is pretty fairly commonplace.

 

[Marciano490]

 
Like when it's not accompanied by "I'll kill you"?
 

 
That seems like a good benchmark.  Like I said, I'm sure Incognito said the word 1,000 times last season without anyone batting an eyelash; but his use of the word in the voicemails was grossly inappropriate.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

It's not too surprising given it's prevalence on pop culture, with hip hop being the best example. A lot if white kids don't censor themselves when rapping along to, say, 2Pac.

 
In this regard, Ken Jeong hasn't nearly done enough to make "chink" a part of our daily pop lexicon.

 

[kenneycb]

 
In this regard, Ken Jeong hasn't nearly done enough to make "chink" a part of our daily pop lexicon.

Well he's Korean. Oriental would probably be better in this hypothetical.

Of course you probably think they're all the same.

 

[soxfan121]

I should go back and dig, but one of the early articles quoted talked about how an NFL locker room is really a black man's environment.  In that environment, it is not surprising that the players themselves would police the use of the n word.  It speaks to something (I'm not smart enough to know what) that no players have come out and said the same thing you have SMU.  So I would think it is pretty fairly commonplace.

 
London Fletcher said something very similar  to what SMU said in the article linked up thread. 
 
But as contrast, Warren Sapp told a story on Dan Patrick today about how Incognito kicked him in a game and said "what are you gonna do about it, n-word?" Sapp's response, according to him, was to laugh and beat him for a sack. "Because he was trying to get me to fight him and get kicked out of the game."
 
Sapp then told a story about Sapp using the n-word to Stephen Davis of the Panthers and Davis confronting him two years later, admitting it bothered him. 
 
And really, this is not about use of the n-word - it is about using the n-word in the same sentence as "I'll kill you" and "I'll shit in your mouth" and "I'll slap your mother". 

 

[smastroyin]

 
 
And really, this is not about use of the n-word - it is about using the n-word in the same sentence as "I'll kill you" and "I'll shit in your mouth" and "I'll slap your mother". 

 
Well, sure, but that wasn't SMU's point.  SMU's point was that he was most shocked that a white man used the n-word and didn't immediately face disciplinary action, etc.
 
I wouldn't use the n word myself but I'm just some white dude going about his daily life, and there is no context in which I can use it without looking like (or being) a racist douche.  But it is still contextual and in the right environments (an NFL locker apparently being one of them) the context is more important than the word.  In many environments the word itself is more important on its own than the context.  To me it seems this latter position is what SMU is most familiar with.  But now I'm putting thoughts into his posts, so I'll stop.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

The voice mails and texts are pretty disgusting even without the use of that word. I am not defending Incognitos use of it and he seems like precisely the kind of idiot who, once he thinks he has "license" from his black teammates to use the word, would use it inappropriately and then claim ignorance if called on it. But whether or not he "meant anything by it " when he used the word in haraassing Martin completely distracts from the point. At least to me.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Well he's Korean. Oriental would probably be better in this hypothetical.

Of course you probably think they're all the same.

 
Tazawa, Uehara

 

[E5 Yaz]

But now I'm putting thoughts into his posts, so I'll stop.

 
Someone has to

 

[Ed Hillel]

Mob mentality wins out every time.

 
I wanted to quote this just to point out how awesome it is in the context of what is happening.
 
 
Here's one thing that I'm not sure anyone has mentioned. So we have Incognito's father posting on a messageboard that Martin has tried to kill himself in the past. I don't know if that's true or not, but it would be a weird thing to make up. If true, I think it's safe to assume that he got this information from his son, and that in all likelihood Philbin and the organization knows the same thing as well. Yet, despite having this knowledge, Philbin decided to sick Richie Incognito on Martin and Incognito decided to go about it this way. That is appalling.
 
As for the Dolphins speaking out against the orders of their organization...I want to say it's surprising, but at this point it's really quite consistent with what you'd expect. That is a rudderless ship down there. Someone down there needs to start fining and/or suspending players who are disobeying orders. It doesn't matter who it is, a message must be sent. .

 

[budcrew08]

Soxfan121, I appreciate your willingness to share your experience and perspective. Very personal and very poignant.

I've been reluctant to post much about this as I am in most threads since I rarely have more to offer than what's been already said. Also, as a life long diehard Dolphins fan I fully acknowledge that I desperately want something to come out--anything at this point--that will mitigate the extent of the team's involvement and/or culpability in all of this. With the bits and pieces of information flying out fast and furious from all directions, some of them just flat out bizarre, I keep thinking something will come up to provide a reasonable explanation for some aspects of this. Needless to say, I'm still waiting. And while I wait with everyone else, my heart goes out to Jonathan Martin and what he is now forced to endure for the indefinite future, both personally and professionally.

With that said, the one thing that I still can't wrap my head around is how, even within the extreme culture of the NFL where violence and constant challenges to one's "manhood" are the norm, on a team with some 60 players and I don't know how many coaches, not one of them (as far as we know to this point) stood up and put a stop (or at least a limit) to the nonsense at some point before that nonsense turned into disgusting harassment and abuse. And to my knowledge, not one of them has yet directly spoken up against it, not even off the record! At this point, I realize they've put themselves in a position of legally being better off shutting their effin' mouths, so that opportunity has passed. But I'm clinging to a sliver of hope that details will eventually emerge that some players and coaches at least tried to take a stand, and for the love of god, didn't condone the behavior as it happened.

One last thing as a point of reflection. Do I/we as rabid fans of this brutal sport bear any responsibility whatsoever for embracing the craziness that football represents and the destructiveness it can lead to? Is the issue of concussions/brain damage, for example, part of this discussion? I mean, it's a game--it's a sport--and I love the athleticism, the physicality, the raw brutality regularly on display. But it's a primal display, and as a man who never had one ounce of the physical ability or courage to participate in it on anything close to the level of the NFL, how do I justify the time, money, and enthusiasm I direct toward this sport, knowing full well the physical and psychological damage it causes? There's nothing unique in those questions, but certainly this has become a unique opportunity to re-examine what I am and what I'm not willing to accept from the people and organizations who have created and operate within the extreme culture of the NFL.

The reason that no one says anything is because then you becoming the target of the bullying. In that situation, who would defend Martin? Most, if not all, would just shut up and mind their business. Is that the right answer? No, but those guys are trying to keep the heat off them.

Edit: also wanted to commend 121 for his awesome and profound post.

 

[NatetheGreat]

Here's one thing that I'm not sure anyone has mentioned. So we have Incognito's father posting on a messageboard that Martin has tried to kill himself in the past. I don't know if that's true or not, but it would be a weird thing to make up. If true, I think it's safe to assume that he got this information from his son, and that in all likelihood Philbin and the organization knows the same thing as well. Yet, despite having this knowledge, Philbin decided to sick Richie Incognito on Martin and Incognito decided to go about it this way. That is appalling.

 
Yeah, it is really, really fucking strange that Incognito's dad (and likely Incognito himself) thought "this dude is suicidal" was somehow an excuse for bullying him. 

 

[budcrew08]

This story refuses to get any more sane and instead just keeps getting weirder and weirder.


If that's the case on the VM, why would he come out now about it? Did the joking around just get too personal?
Such a strange thing.

 

[NatetheGreat]

The reason that no one says anything is because then you becoming the target of the bullying. In that situation, who would defend Martin? Most, if not all, would just shut up and mind their business. Is that the right answer? No, but those guys are trying to keep the heat off them

 
I think we're seeing now that a significant number of players are actively siding with Incognito, which doesn't shock me, because as a rough blue collar guy Incognito probably has more in common with most of his teammates culturally than the Stanford educated, upper middle class Martin. Incognito is also a better player, an established veteran, and had been on the team longer. The fact that many players would simply side with the guy who they know better and who in some ways is more like them doesn't surprise me, though it does depress me a little.

 

[Jnai]

Trying to reconcile the idea that Incognito and Martin were apparently best friends with the idea that the coaches told Incognito to toughen him up, what if this is like the plot of Every Teenage Romantic Comedy where Martin is the loner guy who no one likes and Incognito is one of the popular kids, and then Incognito befriends Martin only because he's forced to, and then Martin finds out about it and loses his shit because he thinks Incognito only loves him because the coaches told him to love him when in reality he's been his soul mate all along, and then they have a romantic reconciliation at Christmas?

 

[NatetheGreat]

Trying to reconcile the idea that Incognito and Martin were apparently best friends with the idea that the coaches told Incognito to toughen him up, what if this is like the plot of Every Teenage Romantic Comedy where Martin is the loner guy who no one likes and Incognito is one of the popular kids, and then Incognito befriends Martin only because he's forced to, and then Martin finds out about it and loses his shit because he thinks Incognito only loves him because the coaches told him to love him when in reality he's been his soul mate all along, and then they have a romantic reconciliation at Christmas?

 
One question, do romantic reconciliations with Incognito end with him shitting in your mouth?

 

[dcmissle]

Ted Wells has been retained by the NFL to investigate this. He's a fine lawyer and can be counted on to do a thorough job.

 

[kenneycb]

 
One question, do romantic reconciliations with Incognito end with him shitting in your mouth?

Dude spoiler that shit. I still haven't seen the final 30 of She's All That.

 

[lambeau]

http://www.nfl.com/incognito
 
Is Richie trainable?
 
I was puzzled by his black teammates support, and astonished when the Miami Herald reported they consider Richie blacker than Martin. A brother.
 
Perhaps the "half-N" epithet was insulting Martin for being insufficiently black, i.e. ghetto, i.e.tough.
 
The Dolphins PSA is also fascinating--they are obviously not oblivious to , but are wittily playing off Richie's reputation for insanely boorish behavior--the caricature of your nightmare fan. Why?
 
I can only conclude that the team and management find Richie humorous, playful, engaging, sympathetic--even charming. Steve Spagnuolo calls him one of his favorites. How can this be?
 
Richie's aggression is not unusual in the NFL, but it easily becomes unrestrained, out of control, and transgresses rules, laws, societal norms, etc.
 
(Logan Mankins comes to mind as a left guard just as tough and violent, but extremely self-aware and disciplined and able to control the aggression.)
 
But Richie is very different from the apparent stone-cold psycopathy of Aaron Hernandez.
 
He is warm, funny, jocular,and loveable--with no clue when to stop his violent games. Apparently he also is anxious, prone to depression, and a massive substance abuser.
 
He is freakishly large and strong, with a freakishly idiotic father who encouraged all his worst instincts. He can be a terrible bully.He's way behind in learning self-controllet alone empathy.
 
When caught outside his doctor's office (good sign?) he said he's trying to "weather the storm"--not his first. He knows he self-medicates, and demonizes others.
 
He was notably calm, lucid, even thoughtful--as if someone else caused this problem. Jekyll and Hyde?
 
Philbin seems way over his head--and I wonder if he had no idea how to handle Richie, who obviously needs to be sat on, not encouraged in off-field aggression of any sort.
 
It occurs to me that one of BB's great strengths is realizing he needs some highly unusual guys--e.g. Talid and Moss--who easily lose control; he provides a highly structured regime for them.
 
I wonder if Richie could be redeemed, with the right meds, the right "family", the right coaching staff.
 
Maybe Martin's family could adopt him? Or the Bundchens.

 

[Gunfighter 09]

http://www.nfl.com/incognito





It occurs to me that one of BB's great strengths is realizing he needs some highly unusual guys--e.g. Talid and Moss--who easily lose control; he provides a highly structured regime for them.

.


Somehow I don think the Pats are the best comparison for controlling the criminal urges of their players. I think BB is the greatest coach in NFL history, but after last summer he can never be praised for keeping his players out of legal trouble again. One little murder will do that.

 

[dwainw]

The reason that no one says anything is because then you becoming the target of the bullying. In that situation, who would defend Martin? Most, if not all, would just shut up and mind their business. Is that the right answer? No, but those guys are trying to keep the heat off them. Edit: also wanted to commend 121 for his awesome and profound post.

This reinforces my point.  It's hard for me to understand how a select few tough guys, "leadership" council members or not, had such a hold over 50 other tough guys to the point that almost everyone was afraid to speak out.  And if that's not how it was, then it's even more disturbing that none of them had enough conviction to do speak out.  The latest round of comments by players certainly don't bring clarity to the situation.  There's nothing to suggest this is a major conspiracy/cover-up either.  The players are either clueless or circling the wagons or severely misguided due to their distorted reality.  Of course, this doesn't even begin to address the coaches' responsibility.

For what it's worth regarding the coaches, I just caught the tail end of a panel interview segment on the NFL network during the 7:00-8:00 CT show (I didn't catch any of the names of the participants, sorry), and the players on it stated that in their experience, the coaches have nothing to do with policing the locker room--it's all on the players.  One of the players even went so far as to draw comparisons between the comraderie on NFL teams and Wall Street, blah blah blah.  Nonetheless, this speaks to the fact that the whole concept of the culture of the NFL is not just screwed up and complicated, but pretty well accepted among a significant number of players, past and present.

I'm fully expecting several more curveballs in this situation, and I fear it will get worse before it gets better.

 

[wibi]

 
Yeah, it is really, really fucking strange that Incognito's dad (and likely Incognito himself) thought "this dude is suicidal" was somehow an excuse for bullying him. 

 
Its not a justification.  Its an attempt to discredit Martin's complaints by painting him as weak.  12+  years ago it would have sunk home to a large section of the population but given the upswing in the people viewing suicide attempts and thoughts as a cry for help and not weakness that isnt the case anymore.    This thought process is, sadly, one of the better things to come from the wars has been the mental health recognition that people arent weak just because their brains dont act according to social/expected norms.

 

[Sportsbstn]

Bullshit these guys were good friends, that is just garbage.  No one says and does these things to a good friend, no matter what the coaches asked.   I this think is ultimately going to cost some in the Dolphins coaching staff their job, or at least a lengthy suspension.  

 

[JimBoSox9]

Somehow I don think the Pats are the best comparison for controlling the criminal urges of their players. I think BB is the greatest coach in NFL history, but after last summer he can never be praised for keeping his players out of legal trouble again. One little murder will do that.

 
I thought we had more or less agreed that the magnitude of Hernandez's crime is something of an outlier event.  BB deserves questions and/or criticism for reaction or lack thereof to possible warning signs, for sure.   Despite those concerns, the fact that Hernandez shot a dude instead of one of many other self-destructive but less overtly horrific acts he could have chosen shouldn't be an eternal black mark against the coach.  In general, BB's track record going back to Dillon, Moss, through Talib, etc is pretty well above replacement coach in frequency of success in the loose cannon department.  That's a perfectly fair statement to make.  "Great strength" may be a bit of a stretch but eh. 

 

[sodenj5]

Ben Volin, former Dolphins beat writer for the Palm Beach Post, weighs in with his article for the Globe:
 
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/11/06/incognito-martin-case-may-not-simple-appears/ifzcI7AjapFF4rPbi3aF2J/story.html?s_campaign=sm_tw
 

 
Certainly, Martin was teased and picked on a lot by his teammates. And there’s no defending Incognito here. But while I’m certain that Martin had had enough of Incognito’s wisecracks, I’m skeptical that was the sole reason he left the team.
Perhaps the prospect of being switched off left tackle before the Patriots game, after hearing from fans and media since March that he wasn’t good enough to play the position, played a part. Perhaps the team’s four-game losing streak contributed to his stress. Perhaps there are a number of behind-the-scenes issues in the locker room and in his private life that we don’t know about.
 
But none of those reasons would help Martin keep earning his game checks. Painting him as the victim of racism and bullying, however . . . ?

 

[rymflaherty]

I should go back and dig, but one of the early articles quoted talked about how an NFL locker room is really a black man's environment.  In that environment, it is not surprising that the players themselves would police the use of the n word.  It speaks to something (I'm not smart enough to know what) that no players have come out and said the same thing you have SMU.  So I would think it is pretty fairly commonplace.
 

 
I've had jobs working with mostly minority, urban teenagers, and they would attempt to call me the n-word. One example - I did my student teaching in a Chicago (South Side) high school with a 100% African-American student population.
Me being white and from Connecticut.   Actually first more often than not they would call me a cop. Then they would harass, bother and try to make my life hell.  They'd realize I wasn't going to be intimidated, I wasn't leaving, and eventually that I cared about them...at which point the N-word usually came up. I would squash it, but it was meant as a term of endearment (of it wasn't simply being said out of habit).

 

[smastroyin]

They may or may not have been friends or whatever, but I think judging from here is starting to be a little much.
 
You can argue if you like about the greater sociological problems of sports, but I know plenty of guys, even at the high school and college level, that talked like this to each other when they were friends.  Reading this stuff afterward is like when we judge a person's entire character from a still photo.  These are snapshots in time and largely without context.  It doesn't mean that their relationship wasn't abusive, but it is not evidence in itself that it was.  My personal belief is that it was an abusive relationship, but I also think it's more than a little unfair to criticize those closer to the situation for not sharing that belief when they have other evidence to consider, including first-hand relationships.
 
I also think both versions can jibe.  It's possible that Martin felt abused and bullied but still put on a face like he was good buddies with Incognito.  That players are saying "I thought those guys were friends" etc. now does not mean they are full of shit or that there is some cover-up or they are all just ganging up on Martin.  I mean it could mean that, I don't know any more than you do.  But shit, I mean, look around at all kinds of abusive relationships.  Beaten spouses where all the neighbors thought they were the nicest couple.  Abused kids where people thought dad was the most loving caring father they had ever met.  Etc. etc.  It's not like we don't hear about these things all the time.

 

[dwainw]

 
Its not a justification.  Its an attempt to discredit Martin's complaints by painting him as weak.  12+  years ago it would have sunk home to a large section of the population but given the upswing in the people viewing suicide attempts and thoughts as a cry for help and not weakness that isnt the case anymore.    This thought process is, sadly, one of the better things to come from the wars has been the mental health recognition that people arent weak just because their brains dont act according to social/expected norms.

Isn't the attempt to discredit Martin by accusing him of being suicidal simply an effort to claim he's mentally unstable (not necessarily weak), and therefore unreliable in whatever claims he's making?   I mean, Incognito Sr. is a dickhead to a scary degree, but would he possibly be so stupid as to suggest someone was suicidal, therefore it's no wonder he allowed himself to be bullied (or deserved it, or whatever)?  I'm not ruling out stupidity, of course, but that's not how I'm seeing it here.

 

[dcmissle]

Ben Volin, former Dolphins beat writer for the Palm Beach Post, weighs in with his article for the Globe:
 
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/11/06/incognito-martin-case-may-not-simple-appears/ifzcI7AjapFF4rPbi3aF2J/story.html?s_campaign=sm_tw
 

Life can be complicated. The conduct at issue can be very objectionable AND Martin could be shaking the team down.

But like Tomase of the Herald on the morning of the 2007 SB, a lot of people are uninterested in vetting and very interested in rushing to judgment.

 

[wibi]

Isn't the attempt to discredit Martin by accusing him of being suicidal simply an effort to claim he's mentally unstable (not necessarily weak), and therefore unreliable in whatever claims he's making?   I mean, Incognito Sr. is a dickhead to a scary degree, but would he possibly be so stupid as to suggest someone was suicidal, therefore it's no wonder he allowed himself to be bullied (or deserved it, or whatever)?  I'm not ruling out stupidity, of course, but that's not how I'm seeing it here.

 
In testosterone driven cultures (such as the NFL or the military) being mentally unstable is considered to make one a weak human being.  Unreliable also equates to someone being weak in those same cultures.   Being mentally unstable or being unreliable is synonymous with weakness in these cultures (although the military is slowly starting to change away from that thought process.)  

 

[dwainw]

 
I've had jobs working with mostly minority, urban teenagers, and they would attempt to call me the n-word. One example - I did my student teaching in a Chicago (South Side) high school with a 100% African-American student population.
Me being white and from Connecticut.   Actually first more often than not they would call me a cop. Then they would harass, bother and try to make my life hell.  They'd realize I wasn't going to be intimidated, I wasn't leaving, and eventually that I cared about them...at which point the N-word usually came up. I would squash it, but it was meant as a term of endearment (of it wasn't simply being said out of habit).

When did you work there, rym?  I worked in group homes in the Chicago area in the 90's (serving mostly inner-city African American kids) as a rural Massachusetts/Iowa-boy, and then as a foster care case manager on the south and west side, and later as a teacher at an alternative school in inner-city Minneapolis, and I had much the same experience. 
 
I taught high school sociology where we had a few discussions about racism and the use of the N-word in the black community. 
It was pretty uncomfortable to bring up at first, but the kids were generally interested in discussing it and the biggest takeaway for me was that it was a very empowering thing for people in the black community to be able to freely use this word knowing full well that white people 1) can't get away with it in just about any situation and 2) are damn uncomfortable even talking about it.

 

[dwainw]

 
In testosterone driven cultures (such as the NFL or the military) mentally unstable is considered to make one a weak human being.  Unreliable also equates to someone being weak in those same cultures.   Being mentally unstable or being unreliable is synonymous with weakness in these cultures (although the military is slowly starting to change away from that thought process.)  

With all respect, I get that.  That's not how I interpreted things in this situation, however.  

I suppose it doesn't matter all that much in the end.   Incognito Sr. is a miserable fuck, and basically one of the roots of the problem. 

 

[wibi]

With all respect, I get that.  That's not how I interpreted things in this situation, however.  

I suppose it doesn't matter all that much in the end.   Incognito Sr. is a miserable fuck, and basically one of the roots of the problem. 

 
Just so you know in the circles I run "With all [due] respect" is the same as "Fuck off"

 

[dwainw]

 
Just so you know in the circles I run "With all [due] respect" is the same as "Fuck off"

Not in mine.  In mine it means "I respect you, I really do.  Now, get off my dick."

For real, though, I appreciate everything what you and just about everyone else are saying here (like I do in all SOSH arenas).  This topic just happens to feel a bit more personal, is incredibly complicated, and seems to be moving at mach speed.

 

[veritas]

Life can be complicated. The conduct at issue can be very objectionable AND Martin could be shaking the team down.

But like Tomase of the Herald on the morning of the 2007 SB, a lot of people are uninterested in vetting and very interested in rushing to judgment.

 
Agree. Whether something else was the last straw or there were other factors involved, if this bullying was a significant part of Martin's decision to quit football he has every right to throw that bomb on the way out the door. Good for him. And given some of the shit he dealt with, Miami putting him on the NFI list (where they don't have to pay him) is nonsense. They deserve this.

I generally like Volin's work a lot, but I think his relationships with some of the Miami players are clearly clouding his judgement in this case.

 

[lambeau]

The story is so big because kids are becoming suicidal every day in every city due to teasing and bullying. They are both vulnerable/depression-prone AND in a hostile environment. Both.
 
The Dolphins started off blaming the victim for spontaneously collapsing. Message: We Care. Ridiculous cover-up. Philbin says he visited Martin in the hospital;heard nothing about stress.Not on us.
 
Volin is an insider, but I'm stunned he thinks Martin would go so far as  a psychiatric hospitalization,presumably suicidal, as a financial manipulation.
 
.Steve Ross is a very smart lawyer and a business titan--I can't believe he can't shut the Dolphins up.
 
Mom is Ass't General Counsel for Toyota--I suspect Steve Ross ends up writing the family a big check.

 

[sodenj5]

 
Agree. Whether something else was the last straw or there were other factors involved, if this bullying was a significant part of Martin's decision to quit football he has every right to throw that bomb on the way out the door. Good for him. And given some of the shit he dealt with, Miami putting him on the NFI list (where they don't have to pay him) is nonsense. They deserve this.

I generally like Volin's work a lot, but I think his relationships with some of the Miami players are clearly clouding his judgement in this case.

 
He's not on the NFI list. He's still getting paid.
 
Also, maybe during the years he spent covering the team, he developed a better feel for the team and their locker room dynamic than, say, you or anyone else on this board, and he's reporting his honest opinion. Just because it doesn't go along with your opinion, or 98% of this board's, or the rest of the national media's doesn't mean he's having his judgement clouded by players he used to work with on a daily basis. Maybe it's just the opinion he derived given the evidence that's come out, the overwhelming support for Incognito amongst his teammates, and his own personal experiences as a former beat writer in that locker room. 

 

[JimBoSox9]

They may or may not have been friends or whatever, but I think judging from here is starting to be a little much.
 
You can argue if you like about the greater sociological problems of sports, but I know plenty of guys, even at the high school and college level, that talked like this to each other when they were friends.  Reading this stuff afterward is like when we judge a person's entire character from a still photo.  These are snapshots in time and largely without context.  It doesn't mean that their relationship wasn't abusive, but it is not evidence in itself that it was.  My personal belief is that it was an abusive relationship, but I also think it's more than a little unfair to criticize those closer to the situation for not sharing that belief when they have other evidence to consider, including first-hand relationships.
 
I also think both versions can jibe.  It's possible that Martin felt abused and bullied but still put on a face like he was good buddies with Incognito.  That players are saying "I thought those guys were friends" etc. now does not mean they are full of shit or that there is some cover-up or they are all just ganging up on Martin.  I mean it could mean that, I don't know any more than you do.  But shit, I mean, look around at all kinds of abusive relationships.  Beaten spouses where all the neighbors thought they were the nicest couple.  Abused kids where people thought dad was the most loving caring father they had ever met.  Etc. etc.  It's not like we don't hear about these things all the time.

 
I dig your vibe here.  To me, the verbiage is in and of itself totally uninteresting.  N-word?  I've called black friends that, and if I filled in the context you'd learn there wasn't the remotest problem to be concerned about.  Slap your mom?  That's a slow night in a Porn 'Stache game thread.  Kill you?  Playful trash talk.  
 
Of course, the fact that Martin felt the way he did changes everything.  The thankful difference between me and Incognito is that if I ever learned I'd ever actually injured someone (and oh yeah, it's happened) with all the offensive shit I say in the pursuit of being funny/competitive/bonding/whatever, my first reaction would be horrified and my second would be apologetic.
 
Regarding the bolded: I don't have your faith here.  It's certainly worthwhile to examine what Martin did or did not choose to reveal and what alternatives could have hypothetically helped defuse the thing earlier, but regardless of those answers I can't believe there weren't visible signs.  In all those other cases you reference, I never believe it either.  Where you see putting on a perfect act in public I see willful blindness.  Being a part of that locker room is a de facto black mark.  I've been in and around enough groups that practiced some pretty horrible ostracization habits that many of the tidbits coming out about how Martin was treated ring bells like reading through the examples list on a tvtropes page.  Someone frozen out of a close-knit group but always around anyways like that, simply acknowledging that they have valid feelings and problems is a loss of social status in the group.  

 

[sodenj5]

Armando Salguero reports more details about the infamous voicemail

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/

There's another thing. According to a source close to Incognito, the transcript of the voice mail is not complete. It omits the last line.

After Incognito went on this apparent diatribe, his voice softens, and matter-of-factly he says, "Ok, call me back."

And ... Martin called him back, the source said.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Great piece on Grantland:
 
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/81380/the-miami-dolphins-and-everything-that-will-never-make-sense

 
 
This is actually a great read and, imho, spot on in its assessment...except that Sharp, like everyone in this thread, does not have all the facts of this story.  Its easy for us to condemn bullying and Incognito is an almost irresistible target given his reputation and some of the quotes attributed to him.  However we simply don't know what the full story is here and as more details leak out, its become less clear.
 
Also, while some here (I would hazard most people actually) have been exposed to bullying in one form or another, I don't think its relevant to the topic at hand.  As the Grantland piece notes, a professional locker-room and especially an NFL one are fairly unique in terms of the type of people who tend to inhabit the environment and the circumstances around their individual and organizational goals.
 
None of this is to excuse Incognito, the team or the NFL for abusive behavior.  But context matters here -  a football locker-room is entirely different than a school-yard, a work-site or a corporate office.  While there may be similarities amongst these places in terms of group dynamics, there are also considerable differences that are unique to each situation.

 

[sodenj5]

Omar Kelly updates after speaking to players in the locker room with several interesting quotes:

"What's perceived is Richie is this psychopath, racist, maniac, right?" tackle Tyson Clabo said. "And the reality is that Richie was a pretty good teammate, and that Richie and Jonathan Martin are friends, or appeared to be friends."

Quarterback Ryan Tannehill said two weeks ago he'd have described Incognito as Martin's best friend on the team. Offensive tackle Will Yeatman, Martin's roommate for road games, agreed with Tannehill's assessment.

"I thought they were very close," Yeatman said of Incognito and Martin, "and Jonathan and I were also very close."

http://touch.sun-sentinel.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-78081567/

Hartline also had this quote that can be found on Kelly's twitter:

Two guys are your teammates,so its always tough. It is not about picking sides. Its about telling what's the truth & not the truth

And this quote from Randy Starks

We're trying to clear Richie's name. He's getting a bad rep

 

[singaporesoxfan]

Life can be complicated. The conduct at issue can be very objectionable AND Martin could be shaking the team down.

 
But you don't need to think that Martin is an angel or that Incognito is an out-of-control racist or that the Dolphins organization had anything to do with what Incognito did to suggest that what has come out so far could lead to a clash between larger societal forces (the anti-bullying movement) and NFL locker room culture that alters the latter. 
 
I think the analogy to the legal history of sexual harassment lawsuits in the workplace is a useful one to think about. I'm sure there were people who made what they genuinely believed to be innocuous remarks at work, clearly not under any direction from their companies, which in turn led to the companies getting sued even though some of the plaintiffs had other issues and were going to leave the firms anyway. The fact that there was no malice intended or that that was just the culture of workplaces then wouldn't have exempted individual companies from the lawsuits.
 

 
 
And ... Martin called him back, the source said.

 
The thing is, the call back can be explained by a variety of reasons. The voicemails could be just be part of a joking, friendly, perfectly healthy friendship, which was why Martin called back. The voicemails could reflect a bullying / abusive relationship, which is why Martin called back. (After all, abuse victims going back to their abusers is hardly an uncommon tale.) They could even be both: what RI saw as a friendship could have been a relationship that Martin hated. The problem for Incognito and the Dolphins is that the voicemails do exist, and the fact that Martin called back may not amount to much.