Hey, he gave him a break on the other misspelled words, the missing words, the tortured logic and the unusual punctuation choices.OptimusPapi said:The dude admitted he messed up so how about you back off
Hey, he gave him a break on the other misspelled words, the missing words, the tortured logic and the unusual punctuation choices.OptimusPapi said:The dude admitted he messed up so how about you back off
I don't even think it would take someone as good as Margot tbh (I had suggested Margot up thread but not so sure now. He's a #3 who is 28 this April. To date a 2.6 WAR is his best season. He's got less value than Shelby Miller who is 4 years younger and moved for a year of Heyward. Owens isn't going anywhere without a #2 or all star hitter. If the Padres were ready to make a run like the Cardinals I could see Cespedes for Ross straight up. But they aren't so they'd probably get two B prospects..Snodgrass'Muff said:lxt, Craig needs to prove he can be an effective major leaguer again before he'll have any trade value. He's never been less valuable than he is right now. He's a salary dump if the Sox move him. Nothing more. And Middlebrooks is a bad fit for San Diego. His power is less valuable playing there, where home runs go to die. He doesn't do enough other things right to be of any real value to the Padres.
If you want Ross, you are looking at a package of something like Owens and Margot as the center pieces, with additional prospects to flesh it out. I don't think Cespedes would be that interesting to them, for similar reasons to Middlebrooks, though his power would still play, if in a diminished capacity. I don't think the Sox are a great match for the Padres in a trade, so working out something for a pitcher like Ross is going to be very difficult.
grimshaw said:I don't even think it would take someone as good as Margot tbh He's a #3 who is 28 this April (to date a 2.6 WAR is his best season). He's got less value than Shelby Miller who is 4 years younger and moved for a year of Heyward. Owens isn't going anywhere without a #2 or all star hitter.
No way in hell I'd give them Devers. SD needs bats--Cecchini seems like he would be a good fit as a part of the trade. Maybe Owens and Cecchini, but that seems like it might be a lot.ehaz said:I'm guessing you start with one of Owens/Rodriguez add in a lower level minors guy like Devers/Margot and round it out with near MLB ready prospects that fill needs on the Padres roster. Cecchini could fit as a longer term replacement for Headley while Marrero could be useful if they're sick of Everth Cabrera.
Do you really think one all-star season at age 27 in San Diego is enough to give up Henry Owens, Manuel Margot and a few throw ins for? He had a 6.20 ERA in Oakland two years ago with 13 starts. Owens could be better than Ross in two years for peanuts..Snodgrass'Muff said:
If WAR dictates that Ross is a number 3 starter then WAR is wrong. Ross was tied with Max Scherzer in ERA- last year while throwing 195.2 innings. His 84 xFIP- was barely behind Jon Lester (82) and ahead of Cole Hamels (87) and Johnny Cueto (87). You are severely underrating Tyson Ross here.
Ross has nearly a 9 K/9 rate, with a 57% ground ball rate and a 3.11 xFIP and 3.24 FIP. He's not a product of his environment.Rudy Pemberton said:It was a good year, for sure, but it's still just one year in the most pitcher friendly environment in the league. Ian Kennedy looked like an ace there too. Steamer projects him at 1.9 WAR next year. Giving up something like Owens and Margot seems like buying high.
Or he could suckgrimshaw said:Owens could be better than Ross in two years for peanuts..
Just like Ross did in Oakland?Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat said:Or he could suck
No, like a guy who has never pitched in the big leagues before.grimshaw said:Just like Ross did in Oakland?
We should trade Cespedes for Syndergaard then. The Mets probably think he sucks too.Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat said:No, like a guy who has never pitched in the big leagues before.
CaskNFappin said:Craig was the cleanup hitter for last year's World Series runner up. Holy shit, the logic about a ballplayer's outlook in 2015 is so twisted sometimes. He had a bad year plagued by injury. Period.<br />
<br />
It amazes me how he's talked about like a AAAA player and guys who've never spent a day in the bigs get penciled in as can't miss all stars.
Why would we want to trade for a guy who probably sucks?grimshaw said:We should trade Cespedes for Syndergaard then. The Mets probably think he sucks too.
Healthy, and in game condition are two different things. The early ends of the season for Pedroia and Napoli were something I was happy to see, I wished they had shut down CraigMakMan44 said:To be fair, the guy spent the entire year insisting he was healthy.
Re:Craig
Yes. My point is that Henry Owens and/or Margot are going to fetch a better player than Ross. If they don't, I quit baseball.Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat said:Why would we want to trade for a guy who probably sucks?
All pitching prospects are risky.
grimshaw said:We should trade Cespedes for Syndergaard then. The Mets probably think he sucks too.
But when Pedroia puts up declining numbers under these circumstances we call him a dirt dog.MakMan44 said:To be fair, the guy spent the entire year insisting he was healthy.
Re:Craig
CaskNFappin said:Put in other terms, his ability to bounce back to form after injury is statistically similar to a "stud" AA prospect's ability to translate minor league success into a successful major league career. <br />
<br />
He's actually proven he can anchor a lineup. More than I can say even for Kris Bryant. People talk about his uncertainty of overcoming an injury in far different terms than they do Rafael Devers' ability to maintain his Gulf Coast numbers against the best pitching in the world.
But when Pedroia puts up declining numbers under these circumstances we call him a dirt dog.
This was Pedey's first full season with a wRC+ under 100, including his injury plagued ones. Allen Craig just put up a 69, for comparison.CaskNFappin said:But when Pedroia puts up declining numbers under these circumstances we call him a dirt dog.
Snodgrass'Muff said:
It's kind of amusing that the point you are making to support the idea that Owens might be better than Ross at some point actually does a better job of supporting the claim that Ross's 2014 is an indication that he's a very good pitcher. Young pitchers tend to struggle in their first exposure to the higher levels. Ross struggling in his rookie season is not a terribly convincing argument for dismissing his 2014 as an indication of what he is now.
Look, I get that you like Owens. He's an exciting pitcher, but his ceiling is what Ross did last year. And that's his absolute ceiling. His chances of reaching it aren't good.There's a really good chance Owens never has a season as good as the one Ross just finished.
grimshaw said:
Whether you think he's as valuable as Cueto or Lester or another guy moving forward is going to be our point of contention. I see him as #3. You see him as an ace. I think a more reasonable offer is Cecchini, Johnson and Shaw. You want to go with 2 blue chippers..
So many questions.BeantownIdaho said:SOSH....where even hypothetical trades can get you a visit from the mafia. This place is getting eerily Dungeons and Dragons-esque.
There is a report button. Use it.OptimusPapi said:I am not trying to save sosh, that is up to the mods but I tend to stand up when I see bullying. So no I won't shut up and I would ask in the future you try to be more respectful to me and all those around you.
In the past two years: 73rd in innings pitched, 19th in FIP, 90th in BB/9, 62nd in WAR, 15th in k/9 between all time greats Burnett and Ian Kennedy. 9th in ERA. But really, really great in that one stat you provided that makes him a 2 or however much you think he's worth moving 4 guys for.Snodgrass'Muff said:
Your reading comprehension could use a bit of work. I never called him an ace. I simply disagreed that he's a 3 and I'm still waiting for you to provide some kind of statistical argument beyond WAR that supports the idea that Ross is a middle of the rotation starter. Even by fWAR (which is what it appears you were referencing) he was tied for 39th in the majors. That's not a middle of the rotation guy. It's a 2 bordering on a 1. After he was traded he changed his approach and started throwing the slider more. Fangraphs ranked it as the 15th best pitch in the majors in a July article last year. In fact, give that entire thing a read. It might help to explain why I'm so high on him.
What I see is a pitcher who, in his first taste of the major leagues struggled and was traded away. In his next call up he was significantly better than average and in his first full season as a starter was very good. Yes, he's going to be 28, but since moving to a more slider heavy approach and ditching his four seam fastball in favor of a sinker, he's been one of the better pitchers in the National League.
As for Margot, our definitions of "blue chipper" are apparently a bit different. I'd call Swihart a blue chip prospect. I'm not sure I'd call anyone else in the Red Sox system one. Owens and Rodriguez both lack front of the rotation ceilings, though Rodriguez is intriguing in that his velocity jumped at the end of the year in a way that could change that for him. Devers and Margot are too far away to be valued that highly, IMO. Regardless, Ross would be a fantastic compliment to a Lester signing and I'd be thrilled if they could turn Owens and something less than Margot into him. I'm guessing it'll take something closer to those two in value, though, as Ross is a really good pitcher.
The problem is, the injury that plagued him oftentimes doesn't heal. And, the longer the injury lingers, the less likely it is to heal. You can't blame last year on the injury and be optimistic about his future.CaskNFappin said:Craig was the cleanup hitter for last year's World Series runner up. Holy shit, the logic about a ballplayer's outlook in 2015 is so twisted sometimes. He had a bad year plagued by injury. Period.<br />
<br />
It amazes me how he's talked about like a AAAA player and guys who've never spent a day in the bigs get penciled in as can't miss all stars.
To be clear, I am enjoying this discussion.Snodgrass'Muff said:So 19th in FIP and 15th in k/9 work against me? If you had read the article I'd linked you would see that he made some very specific changes that account for the steps forward over the last two seasons. Also, his IP. Is low over the last two years because he started 2013 in that pen and was converted to a starter. Plus, last time I checked, ERA, FIP, xFIP, ERA- and ERA+ makes 5 stats, not 1.
Whatever. I've made my point and you've made it clear you aren't even reading what you are responding to. Moving on.
OptimusPapi said:, but the arrogance and snark exhibited on Sosh degrades the quality of the board
someone should start oneLahoudOrBillyC said:Too bad we don't have a thread devoted to real trade rumors.
IIRC, both Craig and the Red Sox stated the position that Craig was healthy during the season and there was little risk of recurrence of the injury as he played. However, the last off-season provided no preparation time as he was still healing. Perhaps this is akin to an otherwise healthy Drew never really getting to his normal performance levels after missing all of Spring Training and the first two months of the season. After the just-completed season, Craig expected to prepare freely without hindrance of the injury. This suggests he and the Red Sox believe a bounce-back season is likely. If so, it's unlikely that anything involving Craig would materialize until the end of Spring Training, at the earliest, so that some value can be re-established.Plympton91 said:The problem is, the injury that plagued him oftentimes doesn't heal. And, the longer the injury lingers, the less likely it is to heal. You can't blame last year on the injury and be optimistic about his future.
MakMan44 said:Considering what they just got for Heyward and that Upton is worth less, I think the Sox have the resources to make a play if they want to. Whether they should is a different question. I'm on the fence but I think I'd rather have him than Cespedes in LF.