Red Sox fire Dave Bush

[RedOctober3829]

Per Boston Globe.
“The Red Sox have fired pitching coach Dave Bush, according to multiple industry sources.
Bush had been the Sox pitching coach since the 2020 season, following three years as a Red Sox minor league pitching coordinator. With the Sox pitching staff having struggled to a 4.52 ERA (21st in the big leagues), the team has elected to go in a different direction.”

https://x.com/alexspeier/status/1711435298826076655?s=46&t=IVL2VrlFgLlpc3mjGGto8Q

 

[simplicio]

I am not opposed.

 

[DeadlySplitter]

Probably not really his fault, but this is how it goes.

 

[moondog80]

I guess having a CBO/GM to make decisions is overrated.

 

[amfox1]

Alex Speier
@alexspeier
3m

The Red Sox also made a pair of changes with well-regarded staffers in Triple-A Worcester. Both pitching coach Paul Abbott and assistant hitting coach Mike Montville have been informed they won't be back

 

[JBJ_HOF]

Players getting worse in AAA and not enough weaning off weaknesses and advancing positives in AAA and MLB the last few years have been glaring. Abbott and Bush seem like nice folks, but they were failing at their jobs.

 

[InsideTheParker]

I welcome this news. Yay!

 

[patinorange]

Pay Kyle Snyder whatever it takes.

 

[LogansDad]

Players getting worse in AAA and not enough weaning off weaknesses and advancing positives in AAA and MLB the last few years have been glaring. Abbott and Bush seem like nice folks, but they were failing at their jobs.

Absolutely agree.

 

[simplicio]

Pay Kyle Snyder whatever it takes.

Snyder seems to be amazing at polishing cast-offs into diamonds, but then equally amazing at having those diamonds go down for TJ. If Bloom were still here I think it'd be a perfect fit, but if we're really going to jump into a high priced FA starter market, is Snyder the guy?

 

[Rovin Romine]

Probably not really his fault, but this is how it goes.

He had some successes with people coming in from outside the org. in '21 and '22, but overall it's been a mixed bag.

 

[Rovin Romine]

Players getting worse in AAA and not enough weaning off weaknesses and advancing positives in AAA and MLB the last few years have been glaring. Abbott and Bush seem like nice folks, but they were failing at their jobs.

Abbot and Montville. . .but yes, absolutely.

What I'm really hoping for is a positive change in whatever the message and the method is - rather than someone to "more perfectly implement" whatever they're currently doing.

Because whatever they're currently doing hasn't been that great.

 

[canderson]

Seems wise. Many broken pieces of the organization.

And more proof Cora will be the defecto head of baseball ops no matter who they hire as GM.

 

[simplicio]

And more proof Cora will be the defecto head of baseball ops no matter who they hire as GM.

Why do you say that? If anything I think this points to the incoming PBO having more input on coaching staff, not less.

 

[8slim]

Why do you say that? If anything I think this points to the incoming PBO having more input on coaching staff, not less.

If that were the case, I would think they'd hold off on letting people go until they have someone new at the helm who would conduct an organizational review. Seems like Cora may be the one doing that at the moment. Which would definitely speak to them likely bringing in a weak head of baseball ops.

 

[SouthernBoSox]

Seems wise. Many broken pieces of the organization.

And more proof Cora will be the defecto head of baseball ops no matter who they hire as GM.

Yea, it seems to me, right or wrong, that this is Cora's organization right now

 

[lexrageorge]

I think it's more likely that Cora was asked if his staff should see any changes, and he responded. Also, wouldn't the AAA coaching fall under the front office rather than Cora? Teams move on from assistants all the time.

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

Seems wise. Many broken pieces of the organization.

And more proof Cora will be the defecto head of baseball ops no matter who they hire as GM.

I think you might have meant "de facto," but I like yours better.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Why do you say that? If anything I think this points to the incoming PBO having more input on coaching staff, not less.

Also, isn't coaching staff usually the purview of the manager?

I don't understand this place sometimes. A couple weeks ago, it was malpractice to not fire Cora and give the new CBO a clean slate. Now because they're firing some coaches before the new CBO has been hired, that's malpractice too?

 

[Auger34]

Didn't Cora explicitly say that they would bring back the entire staff? To me, this seems like Cora has LESS power than we thought not more

 

[E5 Yaz]

Didn't Cora explicitly say that they would bring back the entire staff? To me, this seems like Cora has LESS power than we thought not more

He said that right as the season was ending and, in the moment, it's the right thing to say to avoid providing a real answer. Evaluating things after a week or so, he's decided to change course.
I don't see any problem with his statements

 

[bosockboy]

Didn't Cora explicitly say that they would bring back the entire staff? To me, this seems like Cora has LESS power than we thought not more

Lost in all of the Cora discussions is that he hasn’t been extended, and is currently a lame duck.

 

[Auger34]

He said that right as the season was ending and, in the moment, it's the right thing to say to avoid providing a real answer. Evaluating things after a week or so, he's decided to change course.
I don't see any problem with his statements

To be clear, I don't either...I also don't believe that he's running the organization by himself unopposed. That's the impetus behind my original post

 

[Rovin Romine]

He said that right as the season was ending and, in the moment, it's the right thing to say to avoid providing a real answer. Evaluating things after a week or so, he's decided to change course.
I don't see any problem with his statements

It's kind of weird overall though. He could have made another chipper non-statement (which is fine) rather than flatly saying everyone would be back.

Some of this could just be resignation-type turnovers, I suppose. But let's suppose Cora's effectively pulling the strings.

That would mean a week after the season ended, he decided to ax Bush/Febles. That could speak to a sort of deeper disconnect. Like what's changed between spring training and now? Or the ASB and now? Or even between the end of the season and now? They're both Cora guys - or at least were endorsed by Cora in 21, 22, and 23.

Bush was a former ML pitcher, an analytics guy, but didn't have a huge depth of experience coaching ML pitchers. Febles pre-dated Cora and has been a coach or a manager in the system since 2007.

 

[E5 Yaz]

It's kind of weird overall though. He could have made another chipper non-statement (which is fine) rather than flatly saying everyone would be back.

Some of this could just be resignation-type turnovers, I suppose. But let's suppose Cora's effectively pulling the strings.

That would mean a week after the season ended, he decided to ax Bush/Febles. That could speak to a sort of deeper disconnect. Like what's changed between spring training and now? Or the ASB and now? Or even between the end of the season and now? They're both Cora guys - or at least were endorsed by Cora in 21, 22, and 23.

It's basically the Pitino Doctrine: "What was true then is not true now ... so I wasn't lying"

 

[YTF]

Seems wise. Many broken pieces of the organization.

And more proof Cora will be the defecto head of baseball ops no matter who they hire as GM.

It will be interesting to see if replacements for Bush and Feebles are hired before the new GM/PBO.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I'm having trouble understanding what this means about Cora. There's no Occam's razor explanation here to me.

It's definitely weird timing, and it's hard to believe it happened without his input. Whether it means it was his decision, or it was with his grudging acquiescence, or something in between, seems unknowable at this point. I sort of think we're in Rorschach test land with Cora. If you squint, you can kind of see what you want to see.

I agree that if they fill the positions before they have a CBO, that would be some new interesting information.

Just throwing this out there -- is there any possibility they actually have settled on a CBO, or a likely CBO, and are communicating with him, but just can't or won't announce it yet?

 

[InsideTheParker]

Just throwing this out there -- is there any possibility they actually have settled on a CBO, or a likely CBO, and are communicating with him, but just can't or won't announce it yet?

I can only imagine that being the case if the man or woman is associated with one of the contending teams. I know there's sort of an unwritten rule against announcing big signings during the playoffs, but I don't know if that's only w/r/t players.

 

[Yelling At Clouds]

It's kind of weird overall though. He could have made another chipper non-statement (which is fine) rather than flatly saying everyone would be back.

I'm not certain he did say that? The belief that he wanted everyone back seems to have stemmed from this quote from the press conference, via Boston.com:

[We] as a coaching staff, we got to get better,” Cora said. “We got to push these guys to be a lot better and it’s on us to do this in the offseason. Do that in spring training and do it throughout the season next year. That’s my challenge this year. Me and the coaching staff, we have to be better.

That doesn't seem all that definitive to me. If he said something else in the press conference, then I haven't seen it, maybe someone else who has an hour on their hands can watch it all the way through and confirm.

 

[grimshaw]

Snyder seems to be amazing at polishing cast-offs into diamonds, but then equally amazing at having those diamonds go down for TJ. If Bloom were still here I think it'd be a perfect fit, but if we're really going to jump into a high priced FA starter market, is Snyder the guy?

I don't recall the source, but I do remember reading that the Rays understand that a lot of guys they acquire or draft have a fairly high risk of arm injuries, but because they are trying to save pennies, they roll the dice on guys who may fall in their lap.

 

[The Gray Eagle]

The Glob article seems like it's been updated.
Here is what Cora said about the coaches and when he said it:

Last Monday, before any changes to the staff were announced, manager Alex Cora made clear that the Sox expected to raise the bar in terms of their coaching work with players.
“We just had a meeting an hour ago with our coaching staff, and the tone of our conversation was we have to find ways to improve our players,” said Cora. “You have to be willing to adjust what we have tried to do the last few years for them to be better.”
Cora was asked if the need for improved methods meant a need to alter the coaching staff.
“I don’t think so,” he said. “I think we just have to be better. We have to be willing to go and talk to people and adjust our routines. That’s something we’ve been talking about the whole season.
“I know people talk about the coaching staff, but the people that followed us the whole time, you guys saw it, we did a lot of things we don’t usually do. It didn’t work. It’s not lack of trying, lack of effort, lack of knowledge. You’ve just got to keep trying to find ways to be better and it’s on us.”
One week later, however, it appears that the Sox decided to alter their staff in pursuit of that change in methodology.

The coaching staff has been "altered" a week after he said that he didn't think they needed to be.

 

[lexrageorge]

It seems to me it would be a massive disservice to the coaches if Cora said "We are evaluating our coaching staff and plan to make changes". Assistants know they have limited job security, and reminding them of that in a public press conference seems like rubbing that fact in their faces. If he said "no comment" or "I don't know" or "we'll see" in response to the question about the staff, he would still have been criticized here for being non-committal or giving non-answers to the press.

Certainly, if he told the staff in private that everyone would be back, then it would be a bit of a bad look for Cora. But there's no reason for him to give the press any insight into the team's internal personnel decisions prior to those decisions being made.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

It seems to me it would be a massive disservice to the coaches if Cora said "We are evaluating our coaching staff and plan to make changes". Assistants know they have limited job security, and reminding them of that in a public press conference seems like rubbing that fact in their faces. If he said "no comment" or "I don't know" or "we'll see" in response to the question about the staff, he would still have been criticized here for being non-committal or giving non-answers to the press.

Certainly, if he told the staff in private that everyone would be back, then it would be a bit of a bad look for Cora. But there's no reason for him to give the press any insight into the team's internal personnel decisions prior to those decisions being made.

And I think there's also a difference between him saying "I don't think so" in response to a press question about changing the coaching staff and the organization making a different decision a week later. Maybe he wanted to keep Bush and Febles and was out-voted (or out-ranked). Or perhaps after further analysis and discussions, he simply changed his mind. That doesn't mean he was wrong at the press conference or that he lied during the press conference. Things can change.

 

[YTF]

And I think there's also a difference between him saying "I don't think so" in response to a press question about changing the coaching staff and the organization making a different decision a week later. Maybe he wanted to keep Bush and Febles and was out-voted (or out-ranked). Or perhaps after further analysis and discussions, he simply changed his mind. That doesn't mean he was wrong at the press conference or that he lied during the press conference. Things can change.

Yeah, it could be any of the above. I have to say that I would be curious as to who might out rank or out vote Cora at this point in time. IIRC , Henry is pretty hands of when it comes to on field personnel decisions. BOH perhaps?

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Yeah, it could be any of the above. I have to say that I would be curious as to who might out rank or out vote Cora at this point in time. IIRC , Henry is pretty hands of when it comes to on field personnel decisions. BOH perhaps?

BOH probably has input. As does Romero. And Kennedy. Probably others as well depending on what decisions are being made.

Edit to add: according to redsox.com, Raquel Ferreira (EVP, assistant GM) and Ben Crockett (SVP of baseball operations) are probably in the loop as well.

 

[mauf]

There aren’t many organizations where managers, and even executives, are free to hire and fire subordinates without some degree of oversight and consent (either from more senior executives, or from ownership). I think most of us live this at work, but sometimes forget when it comes to sports teams because their public statements usually portray every decision as having been made unilaterally by the appropriate person in the chain of command.

It’s notable that the dismissals of Bush, Febles, and the two AAA coaches appear to have come from outside the chain of command. Cora said a week ago that he didn’t see the need for changes on the staff, so I can’t imagine he drove this. But I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he is going along willingly. He’d hardly be the first manager who needed a push from above to make needed changes on his team.

I don’t share the view of some here that this move should have awaited the appointment of a new CBO. The new CBO is going to need a few months to assess the situation; if coaching changes are needed this offseason, the people to be replaced will, as a practical matter, need to be identified by ownership or by holdovers from the old regime, including Cora.

I do expect that any new hires on the major-league coaching staff will be put on hold so the new CBO can weigh in.

 

[joe dokes]

I think it's more likely that Cora was asked if his staff should see any changes, and he responded. Also, wouldn't the AAA coaching fall under the front office rather than Cora? Teams move on from assistants all the time.

I have a hard time squaring that with his previous "no changes needed" (at the MLB level) comment. Although that could have been a too-positive attempt to keep his thoughts ("they suck") private.
That said . . . .
IF we assume that there's lots of coaching that gets delegated to coaches, I find it hard to believe that a manager of a team that made "the same mistakes" repeatedly would think very highly of some of those coaches. (Even accounting for some immutable (IMO-YMMV) characteristics like "can't un-coach stupid.)

 

[JM3]

Andrew Bailey may be coming available as a pitching coach.

View: https://twitter.com/ChrisCotillo/status/1716246738963406922


Ties to Breslow.

Bailey serves as Director of Development for the Strike 3 Foundation, a non-profit charity dedicated to pediatric cancer research, founded by former Athletics and Red Sox teammate Craig Breslow.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Bailey_(baseball)

 

[jon abbey]

BOS will hire him this winter, fire him in June and replace him with Koji Uehara who will be the best pitching coach any of us has ever seen.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

BOS will hire him this winter, fire him in June and replace him with Koji Uehara who will be the best pitching coach any of us has ever seen.

What does Hanrahan do?

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

What does Hanrahan do?

Beat me to it. Hammer hands need to get the job first

 

[JM3]

The Bailey thing does make a lot of sense, once we have a CBO.

According to Slusser, it’s believed Bailey wants to work closer to his home in Connecticut. It’s unclear if the Red Sox have contacted him about their open pitching coach position.

“Bailey is extremely well regarded but his family is on the East Coast and he’s believed to want to work closer to home. Bailey has been highly sought after around the majors, with multiple teams making inquiries, though there is the potential he could remain with San Francisco as the director of pitching or bench coach.”

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2023/10/could-red-sox-hire-2013-world-series-champion-as-their-pitching-coach.html

 

[Green Monster]

The Bailey thing does make a lot of sense, once we have a CBO.





https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2023/10/could-red-sox-hire-201F3-world-series-champion-as-their-pitching-coach.html

Family gonna work in the Sox favor?

 

[HangingW/ScottCooper]

What does Hanrahan do?

Nurse a high five related injury.

 

[joe dokes]

What does Hanrahan do?

Try to kill Reggie Dunlop.

 

[JM3]

View: https://twitter.com/alexspeier/status/1722027243025874966

Breslow said the Sox are lining up a long list of candidates for pitching coach. Asked him if that net might include a former neighbor in Connecticut (Andrew Bailey used to be his offseason throwing partner). Breslow: “To be determined.”

 

[Ferm Sheller]

View: https://twitter.com/alexspeier/status/1722027243025874966

Maybe Bailey could take the job and Koji could take over for him in May.

 

[JM3]

Maybe Bailey could take the job and Koji could take over for him in May.

Too soon...

(Koji didn't take over until June).

Another possibility is that some of the Cubs pitching people who Breslow worked with, like their pitching coach Tommy Hottovy, another former Red Sox pitcher, might be available after the Counsell hire.

 

[Pablo's TB Lover]

Sorry all, I didn't see this post previously and suggest "Red Sox shave Bush" as a headline.

Andrew Bailey's teams seem to have performed better than the relatively average arms that have been on the Giants the past several years. So I would not be opposed to adding him as pitching coach. The Giants featured Logan Webb, flotsam and jetsam and finished well into the top half in pitching this past season. Their BRef page shows only 3 starting pitchers for the Giants this past year which is a bit unusual.

 

[The Gray Eagle]

Bailey has interviewed for the NYY bench coach job.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/11/13/sports/potential-new-red-sox-pitching-coach-andrew-bailey-talks-yankees-about-bench-role/

Presumably if he is offered that job, he would want that over being Red Sox pitching coach.

Bailey reportedly interviewed for the Yankees’ bench coach position Monday, a bigger job that puts him just a seat away from New York manager Aaron Boone.
Along with a pitching coach, the Red Sox still need to hire a third-base coach following the dismissal of Carlos Febles.