He's been on the 60-day DL all season. Those are last year's stats before he got his shoulder problem. And during his rehab assignment, he had more problems with said shoulder, so he's shut down again. I wouldn't count on him at all.
Pitching Targets
- Thread starter nvalvo
- Start date
Yes, the CJ Wilson stats quoted would be a pretty good Peavy approximation - a good mid-rotation target who would be gettable for prospect quantity w/o giving up any of the top 4 or 5. but that guy's not pitching as noted above.
There are others out there like him, though, and I'd bet that that's the kind of trade DD pulls off, rather than the blockbuster.
There are others out there like him, though, and I'd bet that that's the kind of trade DD pulls off, rather than the blockbuster.
ANAHEIM – C.J. Wilson is moving back toward pitching … again.
Wilson, who has been shut down with shoulder trouble repeatedly since the start of spring training, said he was going to throw a bullpen session by Thursday.
He will then slowly ramp up and attempt to pitch again. So far Wilson has made it as far as one rehab start at Class-A, before he was stalled again.
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/notes-719482-starting-way.html
Evan Drellich @EvanDrellich 2m2 minutes ago
Dombrowski said feeling out conversations picking up regarding trades with draft done. A lot of teams still feeling out their positions
Dombrowski said feeling out conversations picking up regarding trades with draft done. A lot of teams still feeling out their positions
Dan Straily (with [possible Jay Bruce sidecar) anyone?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/straida01.shtml
Drew Pomeranz?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/straida01.shtml
Drew Pomeranz?
But why would the Reds be looking to move Straily?Yes. See post #296
Even if he's a little older he's still got 1.5 years of minimum salary ahead plus 3 years of arbitration. He's the sort of pitcher the Reds should be looking to lead their staff as they build around the less-traveled guys they already traded top expiring contracts to get, such as Finnegan, DeSclafani, and Lamb.
The only way it would make sense for the Reds to deal Straily, is if the Sox give up both Moncada and Benintendi.
Espinoza and Devers struggles, along with Holt and Travis and Kopech and Swihart's injuries, mean those two chips are pretty much all DDski's got in the bank. Unless you're willing to entertain breaking up the killer B's, which is a complete non-starter to me. And with Panda out for the year, even Shaw can't be moved because you never know when Hanley's going to break down.
All of which means, unfortunately, that the same cost pretty much applies to Pomeranz and Teheran, too.
This:
I get your point that it's going to be more difficult to do, but I just think you are overstating it, especially when talking about second tier guys like Pomeranz. Teheran, yeah they probably would have to move one of those guys. The Dan Straily's of the world I think it's a reach to suggest they would have to pay the same price because they are otherwise strapped of all assets and avenues.
Is correct, I misread his service time when I suggested him, so he would cost more than I was thinking. That being said, I think this is exaggeration:
The injuries have hurt, but that doesn't mean it's Moncada/Benintendi or bust when these teams are talking trade. Espinoza/Devers are teenagers whose shine hasn't moved barely at all (he touched on this in his last chat). If we are talking about a second tier pitcher, there's plenty to be used as chips. Owens isn't completely useless as a chip for an NL team. Kopeck is back playing. Depending on the rebuild calendar, teams might be willing to still take Swihart or Travis after a thorough exam as a PTBNL. The Sox could take back bad salary or trade a recent draft pick if someone likes who they got.
I get your point that it's going to be more difficult to do, but I just think you are overstating it, especially when talking about second tier guys like Pomeranz. Teheran, yeah they probably would have to move one of those guys. The Dan Straily's of the world I think it's a reach to suggest they would have to pay the same price because they are otherwise strapped of all assets and avenues.
Yeah, it may be overstating things a bit. It's impossible for outsiders to know what the trade market is, as much fun as it can be to speculate.
But whatever their respective pedigrees are, the Sox' best chips are in AA-ball and a high-A. Neither one's MLB-ready the way that, say, Swihart or Owens would be if they were respectively healthy or tearing up the competition.
And those struggles of Owens and Johnson at AAA shouldn't be ignored either. There may be potential value there as chips, but no helium.
Certainly the helium is gone and I'm not talking about Owens being centerpiece for a big gun (I don't think Johnson ever had very much trade value aside from being the third or fourth piece in a deal), but for a team that's a couple years out, if they could turn a Straily - who they may view as pitching over his head right now, his aaa numbers were not pretty - maybe they look at Owens, see his AAA numbers (which aren't all that off his career ones at the level) and think he could provide the same Straily does now in AAA, is four years younger and LH. So maybe him and a couple AA or A guys are seen as a better bet than Straily (whom they plucked off waivers a few months ago).
I think we agree and I'm just spitballing a bit and yeah we don't know what the trade market is so we all are speculating, I just found it hyperbolic a bit to suggest the Reds would have no motivation unless it's for our top two guys or similarly the Padres with Pomeranz, etc.
The market will be tough this year and expensive and I'd hate to waste this offense in Papis last year but if those level guys are going to fetch anyone in the top four (Moncada, Devers, Benentendi, Espinoza), I'd rather sit it out. Who knows though. The trade market is crazy unpredictable especially at the deadline. It wasn't that long ago a good portion of us shook our heads at what the Rays got for Price or the flip side of what the Braves got for Miller.
Absolutely. It's going to be a crazy six weeks until the deadline, at least as regards the howling in the press.
If there were a pitcher available out there as good as a 29-year old Bartolo Colon was, maybe it wouldn't be too awful to lose a chance at keeping the next Brandon Phillips, Grady Sizemore, and Cliff Lee. But I don't see who that would be.
And since the Sox aren't at risk of contraction or relocation, I'd like to see what Moncada, Benintendi, and Espinoza turn into over the next 3-6 years, wearing the Boston laundry.
I think this I do this trade even though it hurts a ton. Nothing has annoyed me more than the new life given to the Betts or X idea. They're not going anywhere unless it's Kershaw or Syndagaard coming through the door. JBJ is more interesting because if the Sox believe he's too streaky he could be compared to an OF version of Iglesias. But additionally I'm not trading JBJ for a version of Peavy because there is no X blocking him or looking to take over CF.
E Rod
Swihart
Moncada
Espinoza
For Sale
"It's a perfect fit. Trade Sale for Moncada, one of the other top guys -- say Espinoza, to give Chicago a potential big arm -- Blake Swihart, whom the White Sox would move back behind the plate, and one of the young starters with some big league experience, such as Eduardo Rodriguez or Henry Owens."
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/71551/as-white-sox-continue-to-sink-time-to-consider-trading-chris-sale
E Rod
Swihart
Moncada
Espinoza
For Sale
"It's a perfect fit. Trade Sale for Moncada, one of the other top guys -- say Espinoza, to give Chicago a potential big arm -- Blake Swihart, whom the White Sox would move back behind the plate, and one of the young starters with some big league experience, such as Eduardo Rodriguez or Henry Owens."
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/71551/as-white-sox-continue-to-sink-time-to-consider-trading-chris-sale
...Oh man... If it was Benintendi instead of Moncada, I think I'd have to say yes to this...
I hate to pick this out of an otherwise reasonable post, but there's no way in hell anyone views JBJ as an "OF version of Iglesias" unless their only baseline is his 2014 debacle. At every level since college, JBJ has been an above average producer at the plate (.854 OPS for his entire minor league career). Streaky or not, he's shown he can be productive on both sides of the ball.
Iglesias, on the other hand, was subpar offensively pretty much everywhere he played all the way up through the system (.622 OPS as a minor leaguer, compared to .683 OPS as a big leaguer). His .330 BA for the 2013 Red Sox prior to the trade was the fluke that they sold extremely high on.
Maybe JBJ is a level below X and Betts in terms of untrade-ability, but he's definitely someone they'd need to get a windfall in return for at this point.
The NL Central has the #2, #3, and #4 teams by OBP. And the Reds aren't any of those. With the rise of the Cubs and Pirates, pitching against the NL Central isn't what it once was.
And 5 of Straily's 15 games have been pitched against teams which are averaging over 5 R/G.
The problem isn't that Straily wouldn't be a decent pickup, it's that he'd command a king's ransom and there's virtually no need for the Reds to trade him unless Walt Jocketty is bowled over by the return package.
I know that dealing with the Yankees almost always is going to be a non-starter, for some obvious reasons. And it's a bit unfortunate, because sometimes there's a really good matchup out there to be had. For example....
Red Sox send Yankees: Swihart, Benintendi, Kopech, Marrero
Yankees send Red Sox: Beltran, Chapman
Red Sox shore up the bullpen, pairing Chapman with Kimbrel. Beltran in LF in Fenway probably would be fine, and his bat would be a huge upgrade for the Sox. Solves two major issues for Boston. The Yankees need to restock their system and, frankly, rebuild. Swihart could play OF for now, but he gives them a long-term answer at C. Benintendi could be a star in Yankee Stadium. Kopech is a future lottery ticket SP, and Marrero may be a useful defensive piece for them.
I'd hate to see Benintendi put up crazy numbers for the Yankees for years to come, but this kind of deal (even if it's not this exactly) would actually help both teams a lot.
Red Sox send Yankees: Swihart, Benintendi, Kopech, Marrero
Yankees send Red Sox: Beltran, Chapman
Red Sox shore up the bullpen, pairing Chapman with Kimbrel. Beltran in LF in Fenway probably would be fine, and his bat would be a huge upgrade for the Sox. Solves two major issues for Boston. The Yankees need to restock their system and, frankly, rebuild. Swihart could play OF for now, but he gives them a long-term answer at C. Benintendi could be a star in Yankee Stadium. Kopech is a future lottery ticket SP, and Marrero may be a useful defensive piece for them.
I'd hate to see Benintendi put up crazy numbers for the Yankees for years to come, but this kind of deal (even if it's not this exactly) would actually help both teams a lot.
Yep. So is Beltran. But both would help this club immensely this year, and in order for the Yankees to deal them in the division (to the Red Sox especially), the Sox would have to pay a pretty penny. They wouldn't deal these guys for Brian Johnson or Joe Kelly.
Oh goodness, call me anything but a Yankees fan, please.
Just thinking, in a thread about trades, of a possible trade that could help this year's club (which is what they'd be trying to do), without really emptying the farm or giving away any of Bradley, Betts, Bogaerts, Moncada, Rodriguez, or Espinoza. I'd rather not give up Benintendi either, of course, but to get good players back you gotta give up *something* of value.
Perhaps.
Beltran isn't an upgrade at all. Beltran's projected performance for the rest of this year (~0.6 WAR) is less than Chris Young (0.7). And that number assumes Beltran stays healthy, which he probably won't. Chapman is a good player, but it's not like we really need him. And you're giving up Swihart and Benintendi?
Beltran is better than Young. Beltran has a 132 ops+. Young is hitting way above his norms; he'll come back to earth unless he only hits against lefties. Beltran is much better against RHP. Frees Holt up (when he returns) to be the super utility guy. And lets Young either platoon or be the 4th OF.
Chapman is outstanding. He's not just a "good player". And yes we do need another big-time bullpen arm, especially with Carson Smith done for the year. Maybe it's not Chapman (in fact, it's almost certain that it won't be him), but it needs to be someone really good.
Look, obviously this deal won't happen for a lot of reasons, but then again, so are 99.5% of the trades discussed here.
Depends on how good they are. I bet the Yankees, if they trade those guys, will get some really good pieces for them in return.
EDIT: Just curious if people think that guys like Beltran and Chapman would actually help the Red Sox, and what would be a fair deal for them. Like I said, 99.5% of the trade ideas discussed here never happen, but so what. The larger points are: (1) I would like to see the Sox and Yanks trade more with each other because sometimes there's a really good fit, and (2) the Yanks actually have some players who could help Boston and vice-versa.
Combined they are worth about 1.5 wins at a price about equal to market value ($13m or so). Maybe Kopech and Marrero.
Of course they'd help the Sox...in the short term. But a deal like you're proposing is a mortgage-the-future-to-win-now type deal, and there's zero reason for the Red Sox to be in that kind of mode. They've got a young core of players and are built to contend for the foreseeable future.
If the price is lower (say Swihart alone, or Kopech and Marrero or someone else of that caliber), you pull the trigger. But that's a massive overpay for at best a three month rental that might net you one extra win, without even factoring in the pain of seeing a pair of highly regarded prospects go on to success in the Bronx for the next 10 years.
They most likely will trade them but if someone gives up a package like that - which includes a top 10 prospects who is near ML ready - for two months of an injury prone decaying OF and a handful of innings from a set up man, they should be fired on the spot.
Chapman will get them a solid B prospect most likely (think Eduardo before he came to Boston and became EdRod). Beltran will get them some salary relief and a lottery ticket.
Yeah Benintendi is too much but no way the Yankees would trade those two guys for just Marrero and Kopech.
There is no possible way that the Red Sox and Yankees will ever do a meaningful trade again let alone something of this magnitude. There is also no possible way that the Red Sox send any of Swihart, Benintendi, or Kopech for 2 pending FA's one of which is 39 years old.
Which is not a reason to further clog up the thread with ridiculous notions.
Perhaps you should start one in P&G. Not purposefully trying to be a dick, but what's the point of proposing a deal that "won't happen for a lot of reasons"?
About 12 years ago, I was not accepted as a member of SOSH, which I have read every day since by the way, and then I read this post and have to ask myself how did he get to be a member?
Swap out Moncada for Devers and add Owens and I'm on board. Moncada and Benintendi are untouchable IMO. Everyone else I'm willing to see go if the return is Chris Sale.
What, Kelly Johnson wasn't significant enough for you? Nevermind that Stephen Drew used up 64.7% of the bandwidth of SoSH for 2014.
If we are talking seriously about pitching, pick 3 of those prospects and beg for Sale. Thats the type of context for this discussion.
Yep, substitute Devers for Moncada and I'd do that deal. Moncada is untouchable for me.
I wonder if the extra year of control (and lower contract $) for Quintana basically brings them even in acquisition price? Because for a slightly lower package I'd be perfectly happy with that as well.
Nah, it's not that you are taking part in this discussion and brought up your own proposal. It's more what everyone is telling you after you post about very unrealistic ideas. The CJ Wilson stuff is a complete non-starter as he is on the 60 day DL and can't go more than one day pitching in A ball before his body tells him he can't go more than one day in A ball. Today's idea is even more unrealistic. What people are saying is that if you thought this through, you may have concluded yourself that the idea was without merit.
Please just use your head, do your homework, formulate your thoughts as they pertain to realistic ideas and then present them with realistic evidence as to why you feel this way. That's what is being asked of you.
I have no doubt you can handle this.
Yep, you guys are right. My bad. The CJ Wilson thing was simply a misread of his b-ref page. I'm not the first one here (nor will I be the last) to have a "whoops" moment like that. This one was more of an attempt to discuss a concept that would address two of the Red Sox' three short-term needs (LF, SP, RP) in what I consider to be a significant way. And based on what I would imagine the Yankees would require, trading those guys to the Red Sox of all teams, I figured it couldn't be done with just Marrero and Kopech (or similar) in the deal. So I was trying to be conservative, and not lowballing the Yankees (because many trade proposals are lopsided the other way - hey, the Sox should move insignificant players A, B, and C and get back Stanton, and if that's not enough, just add insignificant player D!), but I just obviously overshot.
I figured the Sox, if they are looking for significant upgrades at two of those spots for this year, would need to unload some of their nicer prospects, especially if they were trying to deal with the Yankees.
I'm not looking to argue my case further. I see that my concept was unrealistic. Just responding to you here is all, just for explanation's sake. I can live with being wrong. I'll think it through a little more next time. Thanks for the helpful feedback.
Well, Devers isn't gonna get the job done. He's a highly regarded prospect but not on the Moncada - Benintendi level. No way a deal for Sale gets done without one of Benintendi or Moncada, I'd never give Moncada.
I agree with that. Biggest reason I agree with that is I'm struggling to understand exactly why the White Sox would want to part with Sale at all. He's signed through 2019 on a beyond reasonable deal. The White Sox would have to be blown away by the return to consider trading him.
They're trending down of late, but dealing Sale isn't going to do anything to turn around their season or their fortunes for the immediate future beyond this season, either.
Well, at the start of the year every publication except BA had Devers higher than Benintendi and BA had them 15 and 18, so virtually the same. Of the sites that update throughout the season, MLB has Devers 14 and Benintendi 21, Sickels has Devers at 16 and Benintendi at 18, and Law has Devers at 5 and Benintendi at 6.
So where, exactly, are you drawing your assertion that Devers isn't on that level from?
Yeah that article leads with all the reasons Chris Sale is a fantastic player the White Sox have no reason to deal.
Unless he's challenging his GM to a fight, like Donaldson, or they get offered the best players in the whole world, he's the best thing ever for that team.
Unless he's challenging his GM to a fight, like Donaldson, or they get offered the best players in the whole world, he's the best thing ever for that team.
Remember when Pedro literally carried the Red Sox on his back in 99? They won a World Series with that guy five years later (and came pretty close to one the year before, fuck you Jimy).
2019 is three years away... they can panic in 2018.
2019 is three years away... they can panic in 2018.