classySox and Rocks said:Do the duke students go back to their normal pathetic lives now, or do they keep sleeping in tents while waiting for next year?
energy didn't seem to be a problem for Duke in 1991 after they beat undefeated Vegas. Lousy excuse IMOSemperFidelisSox said:Duke caught some breaks with their region and match ups along the way. Who was the best team they had to beat after this Wisconsin team, fucking Gonzaga? Getting an overachieving Mich St. team in the semifinals while Wisconsin was going 12 rounds with Kentucky probably played a part in the energy levels tonight.
thanks manGreg29fan said:
They didn't win the league or the conference tourney and got by far the easiest route to the title game.
And not every Duke fan is a jerky asshat, just on here Chuck and tims4wins are good dudes that I'm always happy to converse with.
there are teams that are hated just because they win all the time, but that is not the case with Duke. I'm sure there are a some people who hate them alone for that reason, but to me and I think a majority of others there are many other reasons.SumnerH said:I similarly hate Gonzaga. But I can easily admit that's because the media worships them and claims them as Cinderellas each year. When it comes down to it, they haven't done anything themselves to deserve that hatred.
When teams win a lot, people actively seek out reasons to hate them. Did anyone care how surly Belichick was after 2001? Nah, he had only won one and was a cinderella team, so he was just a genius. Do you think anyone would have given a shit about Spygate if it was the Bills? Deflategate if it was Carolina or Minnesota? When teams win a lot at the expense of others, the natural reactions are anger and jealousy and after time the focus just shifts to tearing them down in an attempt to minimize their accomplishments. In today's day of TMZ sports, it's worse than ever.BoSoxFink said:there are teams that are hated just because they win all the time, but that is not the case with Duke. I'm sure there are a some people who hate them alone for that reason, but to me and I think a majority of others there are many other reasons.
Do you think the Patriots are only hated because they win all the time? I think there are plenty more reasons why they're hated as well.
Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat said:He's an incredibly easy coach to root for.
tims4wins said:Over the years I have given a ton of thought as to why everyone hates Duke, as it is somewhat bothersome and hard to shake at times. Ultimately I think it comes down to a unique combination of factors - a perfect storm that isn't really possible to replicate.
In no particular order:
- white "stars" who were probably somewhat overrated (at least in terms of ability); there seems to be an attitude from the public of "that guy is nothing special, I could do that, he is just a white schmoe". Wojo is obviously #1 on this list, but going all the way back to Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, Cherokee, Chris Collins, Dunleavy, Redick, Paulus, McRoberts, the Plumlees... Duke has always had a lot of really good (collegiate good, at least) white players. This appears to be bothersome to a lot of the public. But in an of itself, that is not the only factor. Sometimes I struggle with the "why" here, because white stars at other schools seem to be loved nationally. Examples include the Buzzcuts, Adam Morrison, every short white guard who all they could do was shoot 3s - thinking schools like Indiana here, there are tons of examples of these types of white players who are adored nationally who, all I could think is if they went to Duke they would be loathed. Gerry McNanamara comes to mind. Nick Collison and Kirk Hinrich on KU back in 2003 ish. Tons of others. Could someone maybe help me understand this a bit more?
- privilege. Duke students are seen as snobby white kids from the northeast who are there on granddad's trust fund. And there IS some truth to this matter. But there are also a ton of hard working kids who earn their way in, as well as a ton of foreign born kids just trying to get the best education they can. Shit, I'm the son of a firefighter whose only degree is from a community college he attended nights / weekends. I was the first person on that side of the family with a 4 year college degree. But that stereotype will likely never go away
- they win a lot. No real explanation needed here
- they get all the calls. Kind of a derivative of they win a lot. Hear this a lot with the Pats too. I think this started during the 2001 Final Four when Billy Packer went on and on about how Duke got really lucky that Jason Williams wasn't called for his 3rd foul. From there it has exploded. I don't remember "Duke gets all the calls" being said much before 2001
- they only play McDonald's All Americans. Can't really deny this one. One thing I will say here is it seems as if the high school rankings are somewhat affected by which school the player picks. For example Casey Sanders was a McDonald's All American, the high school player of the year in Florida. He sucked. Many other examples of this. But it's true, Duke gets good players. But so does UK, KU, UNC, etc.
- slapping the floor. Derivative of the white guy factor, I think. I can see why it is annoying. Other teams do it now too - probably moreso as a slap in the face to Duke?
- the Crazies. I can see why most would find them annoying (although I think if you are being fair you would admit they are far more creative and self-sufficient than other student sections). I mean, by definition student sections are annoying. I will say one thing, I've seen games in a lot of different college arenas, the level of intensity in Cameron is different, especially when Duke is behind. But this is all just blah blah blah to most of your ears, understood. But again, they are a student section, every team has a student section.
A lot of schools have some of these pieces, but very few have all of them, and when you add them up you get the pure vitriol hatred that exists.
What am I missing? How do you Duke haters react to my points? I'm genuinely interested in having a good discussion about this.
tims4wins said:Over the years I have given a ton of thought as to why everyone hates Duke, as it is somewhat bothersome and hard to shake at times. Ultimately I think it comes down to a unique combination of factors - a perfect storm that isn't really possible to replicate.
In no particular order:
- white "stars" who were probably somewhat overrated (at least in terms of ability); there seems to be an attitude from the public of "that guy is nothing special, I could do that, he is just a white schmoe". Wojo is obviously #1 on this list, but going all the way back to Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, Cherokee, Chris Collins, Dunleavy, Redick, Paulus, McRoberts, the Plumlees... Duke has always had a lot of really good (collegiate good, at least) white players. This appears to be bothersome to a lot of the public. But in an of itself, that is not the only factor. Sometimes I struggle with the "why" here, because white stars at other schools seem to be loved nationally. Examples include the Buzzcuts, Adam Morrison, every short white guard who all they could do was shoot 3s - thinking schools like Indiana here, there are tons of examples of these types of white players who are adored nationally who, all I could think is if they went to Duke they would be loathed. Gerry McNanamara comes to mind. Nick Collison and Kirk Hinrich on KU back in 2003 ish. Tons of others. Could someone maybe help me understand this a bit more?
- privilege. Duke students are seen as snobby white kids from the northeast who are there on granddad's trust fund. And there IS some truth to this matter. But there are also a ton of hard working kids who earn their way in, as well as a ton of foreign born kids just trying to get the best education they can. Shit, I'm the son of a firefighter whose only degree is from a community college he attended nights / weekends. I was the first person on that side of the family with a 4 year college degree. But that stereotype will likely never go away
- they win a lot. No real explanation needed here
- they get all the calls. Kind of a derivative of they win a lot. Hear this a lot with the Pats too. I think this started during the 2001 Final Four when Billy Packer went on and on about how Duke got really lucky that Jason Williams wasn't called for his 3rd foul. From there it has exploded. I don't remember "Duke gets all the calls" being said much before 2001
- they only play McDonald's All Americans. Can't really deny this one. One thing I will say here is it seems as if the high school rankings are somewhat affected by which school the player picks. For example Casey Sanders was a McDonald's All American, the high school player of the year in Florida. He sucked. Many other examples of this. But it's true, Duke gets good players. But so does UK, KU, UNC, etc.
- slapping the floor. Derivative of the white guy factor, I think. I can see why it is annoying. Other teams do it now too - probably moreso as a slap in the face to Duke?
- the Crazies. I can see why most would find them annoying (although I think if you are being fair you would admit they are far more creative and self-sufficient than other student sections). I mean, by definition student sections are annoying. I will say one thing, I've seen games in a lot of different college arenas, the level of intensity in Cameron is different, especially when Duke is behind. But this is all just blah blah blah to most of your ears, understood. But again, they are a student section, every team has a student section.
A lot of schools have some of these pieces, but very few have all of them, and when you add them up you get the pure vitriol hatred that exists.
What am I missing? How do you Duke haters react to my points? I'm genuinely interested in having a good discussion about this.
tims4wins said:Over the years I have given a ton of thought as to why everyone hates Duke, as it is somewhat bothersome and hard to shake at times. Ultimately I think it comes down to a unique combination of factors - a perfect storm that isn't really possible to replicate.
In no particular order:
- white "stars" who were probably somewhat overrated (at least in terms of ability); there seems to be an attitude from the public of "that guy is nothing special, I could do that, he is just a white schmoe". Wojo is obviously #1 on this list, but going all the way back to Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, Cherokee, Chris Collins, Dunleavy, Redick, Paulus, McRoberts, the Plumlees... Duke has always had a lot of really good (collegiate good, at least) white players. This appears to be bothersome to a lot of the public. But in an of itself, that is not the only factor. Sometimes I struggle with the "why" here, because white stars at other schools seem to be loved nationally. Examples include the Buzzcuts, Adam Morrison, every short white guard who all they could do was shoot 3s - thinking schools like Indiana here, there are tons of examples of these types of white players who are adored nationally who, all I could think is if they went to Duke they would be loathed. Gerry McNanamara comes to mind. Nick Collison and Kirk Hinrich on KU back in 2003 ish. Tons of others. Could someone maybe help me understand this a bit more?
- privilege. Duke students are seen as snobby white kids from the northeast who are there on granddad's trust fund. And there IS some truth to this matter. But there are also a ton of hard working kids who earn their way in, as well as a ton of foreign born kids just trying to get the best education they can. Shit, I'm the son of a firefighter whose only degree is from a community college he attended nights / weekends. I was the first person on that side of the family with a 4 year college degree. But that stereotype will likely never go away
- they win a lot. No real explanation needed here
- they get all the calls. Kind of a derivative of they win a lot. Hear this a lot with the Pats too. I think this started during the 2001 Final Four when Billy Packer went on and on about how Duke got really lucky that Jason Williams wasn't called for his 3rd foul. From there it has exploded. I don't remember "Duke gets all the calls" being said much before 2001
- they only play McDonald's All Americans. Can't really deny this one. One thing I will say here is it seems as if the high school rankings are somewhat affected by which school the player picks. For example Casey Sanders was a McDonald's All American, the high school player of the year in Florida. He sucked. Many other examples of this. But it's true, Duke gets good players. But so does UK, KU, UNC, etc.
- slapping the floor. Derivative of the white guy factor, I think. I can see why it is annoying. Other teams do it now too - probably moreso as a slap in the face to Duke?
- the Crazies. I can see why most would find them annoying (although I think if you are being fair you would admit they are far more creative and self-sufficient than other student sections). I mean, by definition student sections are annoying. I will say one thing, I've seen games in a lot of different college arenas, the level of intensity in Cameron is different, especially when Duke is behind. But this is all just blah blah blah to most of your ears, understood. But again, they are a student section, every team has a student section.
A lot of schools have some of these pieces, but very few have all of them, and when you add them up you get the pure vitriol hatred that exists.
What am I missing? How do you Duke haters react to my points? I'm genuinely interested in having a good discussion about this.
coremiller said:
The Coach K/program hypocrisy element is also a big factor. A lot of people think Coach K is completely full of it with all his talk about "teaching" and "leadership", those insufferable American Express commercials, etc., when their recruiting has to be just as bad as everyone else's to land the McDAA kids they get. This is where the "at least Calipari/Kentucky are (mostly) honest about being corrupt" view comes from. Whether this perspective is fair or accurate, I have no idea, but it's certainly widespread and influences how Duke is perceived.
A corollary of the white "stars" point is that, for a marquee program, Duke hasn't produced many great pros. Grant Hill was great before he got hurt, Kryie Irving is really good, Battier and Boozer have had nice careers, Elton Brand was good for a while, Williams and Hurley had the injuries ... but few real pro stars.
Now I don't like you simply because of the fact that you ruin my "all Duke fans/students are assholes!" Narrative. Damn you!tims4wins said:Thanks for the feedback guys, I kind of understand the K hate, IMO it is similar to the Belichick hate. And I think someone upthread nailed it when they said Roy Williams was possibly the biggest fraud out there.
Also good point by stevie1der about sports not being entirely rational.
I am enjoying the hell out of this win, I let my worrying about the hatred go a long time ago. I guess it helps to be both a Pats and a Duke fan from that perspective. You just say eff it, bring on the hate. Yeah, BB and the Pats cheat, what are you gonna do about it. Yeah, Duke pays the officials which is why we get all the calls.
In mid-January I predicted this team would lose on the first weekend. They dropped Sulaimon, they tightened up the D, and the rest as they say is history.
Oh and if Decker and Kaminsky played for Duke good lord would everyone hate us... more.
Edit: although having heard K speak in person several times before - he does (or at least used to do) a no-media speech / Q&A with the students every year that isn't recorded - I found him to be one of the most genuine people I have ever been around. It's only one data point, and probably meaningless to most of you. But on the most open stage he could have, without having any agenda to drive home, he just came across as super real and super human. Much moreso than BB IMO.
Coach K spoke at a National Sales Meeting I went to 20 years ago, and he was great. In other years we had Lou Holtz and Al McGuire. All really interesting, but when off the podium, K seemed a lot more "normal" than the other two. We had a huge corporate 3 on 3 tournament, and he stuck around, watched, and joked that we re-defined the word "slow." As an aside, he also swears every other word--I was amazed how he could turn that on and off. Anyway, I have nothing against him.tims4wins said:Edit: although having heard K speak in person several times before - he does (or at least used to do) a no-media speech / Q&A with the students every year that isn't recorded - I found him to be one of the most genuine people I have ever been around. It's only one data point, and probably meaningless to most of you. But on the most open stage he could have, without having any agenda to drive home, he just came across as super real and super human. Much moreso than BB IMO.
DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
Coach K is a good coach - I will grant you that. But there are a lot of very good basketball coaches in the NCAA and particularly the tournament. What separates him and the other guys who run elite programs is not their acumen however - its their ability to attract the top talent in the country to attend their college for a year on their way to fame and glory - and do it on a consistent basis. Its a very dirty business and only the sleaziest are able to consistently compete.
If you gave Shaka Smart or Brad Stevens the same players that Coach K or Cal has had over the years, do you not think they would have won a few championships already? Let's see what Smart does with Texas and their money machine now that he has changed addresses. As a side note, I bet he could coach the fuck out of Team USA too.
DukeSox said:I don't understand the K hypocrisy stance. I mean, the guy is a product of his background in the same way Belichick is. Bill grew up around the Navy. K went to West Point.
You mean after he returned from quitting when his team started 0-6 in the ACC?tims4wins said:K also almost entirely cut out media responsibilities during the second half of the 90s when he returned from back surgery, which created a backlash with the media, different from BB but a backlash nonetheless.
RedOctober3829 said:Be ready for the next JJ Redick: Grayson Allen.
https://twitter.com/WhiteBballPains/status/585278694710579200RedOctober3829 said:Be ready for the next JJ Redick: Grayson Allen.
There are no guarantees that Tyus returns for his sophomore season. Not only did he come to Duke as a package deal with Okafor but I believe they took all of their recruiting visits together. Whoever gets the #2 pick (assuming Towns goes 1) could see tremendous value in promising to use their high 2nd rounder on Jones with a contract to mirror a low 1st to ease the transition of its investment in the then 19-year old Okafor.BigSoxFan said:Agreed. He was phenomenal. He and Tyus Jones will own that team next year. What a backcourt they will be.
BigSoxFan said:Agreed. He was phenomenal. He and Tyus Jones will own that team next year. What a backcourt they will be.
I was trying to put my finger on my dislike for Duke, and this paragraph really describes it for me. I irrationally hate flopping and exaggerating contact, in any sport, and it seems to be a core component of Duke's brand of basketball.Stevie1der said:As an ACC fan (UVA) I think a lot of my dislike of Duke, other than the obvious winning and getting all the best players components, stems from the fact that I think Coach K instructs his teams to play in a sort of cheap way that straddles the line of legality and puts a lot of pressure on the officials. They handcheck all the time, they're extremely good at using their bodies to generate just enough contact to throw off opponents without drawing much attention to it. They use charges (and yes, flops) as a legitimate defensive strategy, which I detest. And I swear that on offense it feels like they're coached to overreact to the kind of contact they love to make on defense. They throw their heads back like they've been shot, they drive to the basket borderline out-of-control and fall to the ground in a heap after throwing the ball up. It's just a very aggressive, entirely legal, but ultimately cynical style of play that puts a ton of pressure on the officials to make difficult decisions.
I think it was Tyus Jones who went down like Hernandez shot him.DukeSox said:Would love to see you post a clip of any single instance of that from last night's game.
RedOctober3829 said:I think it was Tyus Jones who went down like Hernandez shot him.
He fell straight back right as #13 starts his move. Flop city.DukeSox said:Looks to me like a 7' dude throwing his shoulder into a 6' dude
SoxJox said:Look, pointing to this flopping thing is silly. Everyone does it, although I believe someone up thread went so far as to assign origination of this "style" of play to Coach K.
HomeRunBaker said:Selling calls is a part of the game for the players. Working the officials to get make up calls is part of the game for the coaches.
Some day people will stop whining that players are working for the call while coaches are doing the same. If you aren't accomplishing these things effectively you aren't competing to the best of your ability.
RedOctober3829 said:Be ready for the next JJ Redick: Grayson Allen.
WayBackVazquez said:You mean after he returned from quitting when his team started 0-6 in the ACC?
So you're saying that just because something is finable it is bad?WayBackVazquez said:
When doing something on court can result in a fine, as it can in the NBA, I would argue that doing that thing goes beyond "competing to the best of your ability."
tims4wins said:
They were 9-3 when he stepped down for the season, but keep on trolling!
Chuck Z said:So you're saying that just because something is finable it is bad?
I don't disagree on flopping, I think it sucks and I think the Jones play was a flop. I think that it does beyond the spirit of why we play, which is to produce awesome results without officials, but have them there to maintain order. I also think it's in every sport at this point, so to point the finger at any team or person is fairly disingenuous also.
But whether something results in a fine doesn't mean shit in terms of how it affects the game. Unless you think cleat color in the NFL is a major problem that should be addressed.