NCAA Tournament Final Four game thread

[ivanvamp]

An interesting question regarding UConn women's hoops….
 
If you took a team of just UConn players and alumni and put together an opposing all-star team made up of the best players that didn't go to UConn, who would win?
 
UConn's team:
 
G - Sue Bird (multiple WNBA all-star, champion, and gold medalist)
G - Diana Taurasi (see above; also considered to be the greatest women's player of all-time in some circles)
F - Maya Moore (see above; now considered to be the greatest women's player ever)
F - Breanna Stewart (best player in college; soon to be perennial WNBA all-star and gold medalist)
C - Tina Charles (see Bird/Taurasi/Moore - WNBA MVP, etc.)
Bench - Swin Cash, Bria Hartley, Kaleena Mosqueda-Lewis, Asjia Jones, Renee Montgomery, Tiffany Hayes, Stefanie Dolson, Kalana Greene, Mo Jefferson
 
I mean, you'd be hard-pressed to come up with a team of non-UConn all-stars that would beat this group on a consistent basis. 

 

[ivanvamp]

I think a team of Sheryl Swoopes, Cheryl Miller, Britney Griner, Chamique Holdsclaw, etc. would more than hold their own. But it is pretty ridiculous that you can have a serious debate about this. Bottom line is that UConn is basically 2010-2015 Kentucky while playing in a much shallower talent pool. It's gotten to the point where it really isn't even a sport anymore.

You can't pick all time players. I'm talking about that UConn group NOW against the best the rest of the world has to offer.

 

[ivanvamp]

But your point makes it even more remarkable. Uconn alums NOW vs the best the rest of the world has EVER had to offer..... Is fairly even. Crazy.

 

[Dan Murfman]

I always thought that conference realignment wouldn't hurt them but I have to think at some point it starts affecting them too. The conference in women's basketball is so bad their season is basically 4 games in the tournament with a couple of non conference games in the beginning of the season. And Duke has dropped them and Tennessee won't play them. Wouldn't be surprised if other schools do the same.

 

[ivanvamp]

Notre Dame is going to be very tough on UConn next year. They are very young and obviously hung pretty tough last night.

UConn will always play as tough a non conference schedule as possible. But even when they were in the Big East, they crushed everyone.

I do think that eventually UConn ends up in the ACC.

 

[mandro ramtinez]

An interesting question regarding UConn women's hoops….
 
If you took a team of just UConn players and alumni and put together an opposing all-star team made up of the best players that didn't go to UConn, who would win?
 
UConn's team:
 
G - Sue Bird (multiple WNBA all-star, champion, and gold medalist)
G - Diana Taurasi (see above; also considered to be the greatest women's player of all-time in some circles)
F - Maya Moore (see above; now considered to be the greatest women's player ever)
F - Breanna Stewart (best player in college; soon to be perennial WNBA all-star and gold medalist)
C - Tina Charles (see Bird/Taurasi/Moore - WNBA MVP, etc.)
Bench - Swin Cash, Bria Hartley, Kaleena Mosqueda-Lewis, Asjia Jones, Renee Montgomery, Tiffany Hayes, Stefanie Dolson, Kalana Greene, Mo Jefferson
 
I mean, you'd be hard-pressed to come up with a team of non-UConn all-stars that would beat this group on a consistent basis. 

A school has had an impressive run when one of their all-time legends, Rebecca Lobo, can't even crack your hypothetical lineup.

 

[gryoung]

I think a team of Sheryl Swoopes, Cheryl Miller, Britney Griner, Chamique Holdsclaw, etc. would more than hold their own. But it is pretty ridiculous that you can have a serious debate about this. Bottom line is that UConn is basically 2010-2015 Kentucky while playing in a much shallower talent pool. It's gotten to the point where it really isn't even a sport anymore.

And the UConn girls would undoubtedly stomp the KU boys in College Bowl. That score would be more one-sided than a game of hoop between the two. Sheesh.

 

[WayBackVazquez]

A school has had an impressive run when one of their all-time legends, Rebecca Lobo, can't even crack your hypothetical lineup.

Well, she's been retired for over a decade, so she might not be at the top of her game.

You can't pick all time players. I'm talking about that UConn group NOW against the best the rest of the world has to offer.

 

[WayBackVazquez]

And the UConn girls would undoubtedly stomp the KU boys in College Bowl. That score would be more one-sided than a game of hoop between the two. Sheesh.

But how would Kentucky do against CU?

 

[mandro ramtinez]

Well, she's been retired for over a decade, so she might not be at the top of her game.
 

I got the criteria confused, my mistake.

 

[Dan Murfman]

I must admit it shouldn't bother me but it always does on a day like this. I am glad they won last night. I even watched the 2nd half. It's good press for the school. The team I live and die for has won 4 national championships so I really shouldn't let it bother me. But it always does. I'm  getting in line at the drive through at Dunkin I look up and see that stupid f'n bumper sticker. UConn Basketball where the men are men and the women are CHAMPIONS

 

[ivanvamp]

I absolutely love the uconn women. But what kills me is when some idiot claims that the women's team could beat the men's team.

 

[DJnVa]

I absolutely love the uconn women. But what kills me is when some idiot claims that the women's team could beat the men's team.

 
No one that knows anything about hoops would claim this any longer. They couldn't beat a D3 team.
 

 

[HomeRunBaker]

 
No one that knows anything about hoops would claim this any longer. They couldn't beat a D3 team.
 

Back in the day Tracy Lis used to come down the playground for pickup games and was just another 3rd-4th option. The top of the top can compete with the D-3 men.....the Griners, Taurasi's and even some of the role playing shooters.....but as a whole the depth isn't there.

 

[Ed Hillel]

 
No one that knows anything about hoops would claim this any longer. They couldn't beat a D3 team.
 

 
No, but they could probably beat the Knicks.

 

[GraysonGrandeGonads]

It's mainly about preventing turnovers and defensive rebounding. The Lobo/Wolters/Rizzotti team of the past could have done well against many D3 teams, and, if healthy, the 2001 team too.
It's true about depth, though.

 

[DJnVa]

It's mainly about preventing turnovers and defensive rebounding. The Lobo/Wolters/Rizzotti team of the past could have done well against many D3 teams, and, if healthy, the 2001 team too.
It's true about depth, though.

 
I had a friend that scrimmaged against a top 5 college team probably a decade ago as part of the normal practice routine for this program. He was a HS player but not one that got a sniff of a college opportunity.
 
Most times the group scrimmaging had to take a player off the floor and go 5 vs. 4. Of course there were times when the women's team would get hot and hit some jumpers but in any extended scrimmage the games were not close. The men were just too physical and most of them could guard even the bigs of the women's team with someone 4 or 5 inches shorter.

 

[ivanvamp]

 
No one that knows anything about hoops would claim this any longer. They couldn't beat a D3 team.
 

 
They can't even beat their practice team guys if the practice team guys play like they mean it.  Geno has to tell his practice guys that they can't block shots or play too physical.  

 

[SumnerH]

there are teams that are hated just because they win all the time, but that is not the case with Duke. I'm sure there are a some people who hate them alone for that reason, but to me and I think a majority of others there are many other reasons.

Do you think the Patriots are only hated because they win all the time? I think there are plenty more reasons why they're hated as well.

I think the Patriots winning a lot is by far the greatest reason they're hated, absolutely. Every team has some ancillary stuff that can go into the mix, but the fact that Belichik is surly, arrogant, and wears a hoodie wouldn't be a big deal if they were 8-8 every year. It's not nothing, but it's 5% of the equation that people use to give cover because they hate the Goliath and love underdogs.

It's real and legit, but at the same time I can distinguish why I hate Manny Rivera or Kareem from why I hate Laimbeer and A Rod.

Hating people for petty reasons is crucial to sports rivalries, but there's also that thing where 10 years post retirement you can have grudging respect for some of them as just great opponents, and view others as cheaters, rapists, or whatever.

 

[SumnerH]

Right, kind of like Jeter with Sox fans. Great player, but shoved down our throats. Understandable.

Yeah, that's totally understandable.

 

[SumnerH]

ND women have been the runner up 4 of the last 5 years. Ouch.

Shades of Stockton/Malone? How many titles do they win if MJ doesn't exist? At least a couple, maybe 4 or more.

 

[SumnerH]

I absolutely love the uconn women. But what kills me is when some idiot claims that the women's team could beat the men's team.

Comparing them is stupid and pointless. Period.

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

UConn's women practice against guys (as do 2/3s of D1 women's BB), some of whom got D3 scholarship offers.  One D1 coach offered his perspective (a team with only a few scholarship athletes might lose to them, but a full scholarship squad, never).
 
Grantland covered the 2012 Olympic women's team with some relevant material:
 

A team of men in USA jerseys surrounds the court as the women practice. They are former college players from schools in the Pacific Northwest and usually convene as a practice squad against the WNBA’s Seattle Storm. They are called on to run some offensive and defensive sets against the women. “The first time I played against them, I thought I could do whatever,” says Marlon Bailey, a 6-foot-5 guard who played at Edmonds Community College. “Nope. They’re that good.” To drive the point home, all 6-foot-6 of Sylvia Fowles nearly eviscerates one of the men on the first possession with a hearty, solid screen.

 
A few years ago, UProxx debated whether UConn could beat a bottom-of-the-barrel D1 men's squad, and the consensus was "maybe a single-digit percent of the time against the really shitty schools" / "maybe vs D2 or D3 dregs".
 
The biggest difference is jumping vertical; women's players say that they're outjumped by guys in practice who are 6" shorter than they are.  So they'd get crushed in rebounding, but could probably have an edge in FG%.
 
Personally, I'm with Woj: They ought to have an exhibition game, women's champion vs a bottom-finishing D1 team, to raise money for charity.  Think of how furiously the guys would be flying around and stuff.  Would be mayhem, and awesome to watch.  Hell, I'd pay to see it.

 

[jon abbey]

Shades of Stockton/Malone? How many titles do they win if MJ doesn't exist? At least a couple, maybe 4 or more.

 
That is an exaggeration, they only made two Finals to even get to the Bulls, so it would be two at most. Even if Jordan doesn't exist, Olajuwon and Duncan still do on either end. And even in those years (97/98) Utah would have been favored in the Finals, but Miami or Indiana or NY likely wouldn't have been a pushover. 

 

[Moosey]

An interesting question regarding UConn women's hoops….
 
If you took a team of just UConn players and alumni and put together an opposing all-star team made up of the best players that didn't go to UConn, who would win?
 
UConn's team:
 
G - Sue Bird (multiple WNBA all-star, champion, and gold medalist)
G - Diana Taurasi (see above; also considered to be the greatest women's player of all-time in some circles)
F - Maya Moore (see above; now considered to be the greatest women's player ever)
F - Breanna Stewart (best player in college; soon to be perennial WNBA all-star and gold medalist)
C - Tina Charles (see Bird/Taurasi/Moore - WNBA MVP, etc.)
Bench - Swin Cash, Bria Hartley, Kaleena Mosqueda-Lewis, Asjia Jones, Renee Montgomery, Tiffany Hayes, Stefanie Dolson, Kalana Greene, Mo Jefferson
 
I mean, you'd be hard-pressed to come up with a team of non-UConn all-stars that would beat this group on a consistent basis. 

 
Late to the party on this discussion.  I completely agree with your assessment and just taking this to a different spot because of how much I love Taurasi.
 
In the team above Taurasi is still your leader.  For all the women that have been awesome at Uconn she is the one you want with the ball with the game on the line.  There are people that scored more, shot better, etc, but she is an assassin.  Stewie has a chance to go 4 for 4, which is just beyond ridiculous, but Taurasi is still Queen, first pick on any team I want.
 
I am absolutely in that circle that thinks Taurasi is the best of all time.  She played, even in college, in a way that so few do.  It was like Bird and Magic had a daughter together.

 

[ivanvamp]

UConn's women practice against guys (as do 2/3s of D1 women's BB), some of whom got D3 scholarship offers.  One D1 coach offered his perspective (a team with only a few scholarship athletes might lose to them, but a full scholarship squad, never).
 
Grantland covered the 2012 Olympic women's team with some relevant material:
 
 
A few years ago, UProxx debated whether UConn could beat a bottom-of-the-barrel D1 men's squad, and the consensus was "maybe a single-digit percent of the time against the really shitty schools" / "maybe vs D2 or D3 dregs".
 
The biggest difference is jumping vertical; women's players say that they're outjumped by guys in practice who are 6" shorter than they are.  So they'd get crushed in rebounding, but could probably have an edge in FG%.
 
Personally, I'm with Woj: They ought to have an exhibition game, women's champion vs a bottom-finishing D1 team, to raise money for charity.  Think of how furiously the guys would be flying around and stuff.  Would be mayhem, and awesome to watch.  Hell, I'd pay to see it.

The men's team would crush them. It would not be remotely close.

 

[StuckOnYouk]

Notre Dame is going to be very tough on UConn next year. They are very young and obviously hung pretty tough last night.

UConn will always play as tough a non conference schedule as possible. But even when they were in the Big East, they crushed everyone.

I do think that eventually UConn ends up in the ACC.

I don't see it. BC and Syracuse don't want us in.

 

[SumnerH]

I don't see it. BC and Syracuse don't want us in.

 
More importantly, that last slot's almost certainly going to someone with a stronger football program.

 

[GraysonGrandeGonads]

Isn't it obviously Notre Dame?

 

[ivanvamp]

I don't see it. BC and Syracuse don't want us in.

Yeah maybe. Uconn could be up a serious creek.

 

[Moosey]

Already are, no could be. They never should have tried to be a football school. Complete waste of time.

 

[StuckOnYouk]

Well it's not a waste of time if they end up in the ACC or if the B1G wants to give Rutgers, Penn State and Marylamd another east coast neighbor soon.
The Big East will always be around if UConn doesn't get snagged in the next 5 years or so.
Most days I'm pessimistic but UConn is a pretty damn good school athletically and academically to not be taken by someone eventually but it has to be soon before the funds run dry

 

[StuckOnYouk]

 
More importantly, that last slot's almost certainly going to someone with a stronger football program.

I would agree. The ACC stopped putting academics ahead of football when they took Louisville but miracles do happen.
This is a huge year for Diaco

 

[SumnerH]

Isn't it obviously Notre Dame?

 
Notre Dame's one of the 15.  They're not in in football, but they'll be allowed to keep that 15th slot as long as they're giving a bunch of football games each year and there's any hope of roping them in as a full member.

 

[GraysonGrandeGonads]

 but UConn is a pretty damn good school athletically and academically to not be taken by someone eventually but it has to be soon before the funds run dry

compared to Louisville, NC State, sure, but Duke, UVA, Wake, BC, UNC, GT it's not in the same ballpark.

 

[GraysonGrandeGonads]

 
Notre Dame's one of the 15.  They're not in in football, but they'll be allowed to keep that 15th slot as long as they're giving a bunch of football games each year and there's any hope of roping them in as a full member.

oh ok, so this discussion is about #16 I take it.

 

[StuckOnYouk]

If they were in a power conference there is no reason to think they couldn't be as good as BC Cuse or Pitt in football. They've already had some seasons where they were.
They would just need access to a P5 schedule and the money that comes from it.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

The biggest difference is jumping vertical; women's players say that they're outjumped by guys in practice who are 6" shorter than they are.  So they'd get crushed in rebounding, but could probably have an edge in FG%.
 

The other big difference that would affect the womens FG% is the difference in circumference of the women's ball as well as the quicker closeout of shooters by the men's athleticism. The perception that women are superior shooters is skewed by the advantage of shooting a smaller ball into the same size rim that men are shooting a larger ball into.

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

The men's team would crush them. It would not be remotely close.

 
The UConn men's team?  Absolutely.  Pretty much any remotely-competitive D1 team would.
 
I'd only say that D1 teams lacking a full scholarship squad (like that Centenary team transitioning to D3, from the article), or a below-average D2/D3 team, might be a competitive game vs the UConn women.
 
And I think the USA Women's National team, if it included Brittney Griner and Taurasi, might be able to hold its own against an average D2 team or a bottom-third-but-not-bottom-barrel D1 team.  As in, "keep most games close and maybe steal one occasionally".
 
...And I'm with FarvinMoosey that Diana Taurasi is the 2nd-best female athlete I've ever seen, next to Serena Williams.  Her 01-02 team was loaded, but she basically willed the 03-04 team to the title by herself.

 

[tims4wins]

I saw Taurasi play in Cameron once. She played like a guy. It was incredible. Best female athlete I have ever seen live. Second best was probably like Mia Hamm.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I'd have to include Nancy Lieberman on any women's athlete list. She actually PLAYED in a men's professional league early in the NBDL days. The other is Ann Meyers who was in the Pacers training camp one year trying to make the team.

Aside from basketball you have to look at the Williams sisters and Ronda Rousey......although they may have more testosterone in their systems than many male athletes.

 

[ivanvamp]

 
The UConn men's team?  Absolutely.  Pretty much any remotely-competitive D1 team would.
 
I'd only say that D1 teams lacking a full scholarship squad (like that Centenary team transitioning to D3, from the article), or a below-average D2/D3 team, might be a competitive game vs the UConn women.
 
And I think the USA Women's National team, if it included Brittney Griner and Taurasi, might be able to hold its own against an average D2 team or a bottom-third-but-not-bottom-barrel D1 team.  As in, "keep most games close and maybe steal one occasionally".
 
...And I'm with FarvinMoosey that Diana Taurasi is the 2nd-best female athlete I've ever seen, next to Serena Williams.  Her 01-02 team was loaded, but she basically willed the 03-04 team to the title by herself.

 
No, any D1 men's team would.  Any.  It would not be close.  UConn would get absolutely CRUSHED by any D1 men's team.  
 
My son plays on a D3 team.  Their front line goes 6'9", 6'6", 6'6", all fairly skilled.  The guards are 6'0" and 5'8".  
 
They finished middle of the pack in their conference.  But if they went up against UConn, they'd annihilate them.  The matchups:
 
6'9" center (his conference's player of the year last year) vs. Breanna Stewart, at 6'4".  This guy would destroy Stewart in the post.  Stewart is a great, great player.  Would have zero chance of handling him.
 
6'6" power forward vs. Morgan Tuck, at 6'2".  Tuck is also skilled.  Giving up 4 inches and about 50 pounds.  
 
6'6" small forward vs. Mosqueda-Lewis, at 5'11".  KML is a GREAT shooter - better than anyone on my son's college team.  But she is never, ever, ever guarded by people this tall or athletic.  And again, she'd have no chance of guarding him.
 
In the backcourt, things would be more even, but even there the guys would have size, speed, and power.  Mo Jefferson would be a pain for this point guard, but this point guard for my son's team has about 50 pounds on her of solid muscle.  If he wanted to post her up, he could.  Easily.  
 
UConn is incredibly skilled.  But they'd get murdered by my son's average D3 team.  It wouldn't be close.  20-30 point win for the men, easily.  A D1 team would win by 50.  A top D1 team might not let UConn score 10 points.
 
I love the UConn women and admire them and, truth be told, I play against them routinely.  They are phenomenal.
 
It's just that it's a completely different universe.  It really is.

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

Fair points all.  I'd be interested if you took a look at Wojciechowski's article and thought "Walsh was just being nice", vs "Walsh was saying what he believed".
 
I went to a D1 school with a shitty basketball program (haven't won their league for almost 40 years).  Their starting lineup:
 
C Osetkowski - 6'11" 270
PF Coby - 6'8" 220
SF McComber - 6'8" 235
SG Cohen - 6'4" 220
PG Lo - 6'3" 190
 
I watched a few games this season and I'm pretty sure a women's all-star lineup would give them a game, e.g.:
 
C Brittney Griner - 6'9" 210
PF Breanna Stewart - 6'4" 170 (edit: or Dolson, who's 6'5" 210, and push Stewart to the 3)
SF Nneka Ogwumike - 6'2" 190
SG Maya Moore - 6'0" 180 (more of a SF; maybe you'd sub in KML at 5'10" 180)
PG Diana Taurasi - 6'0" 165
 
The strangest thing about that game would be watching the advantages and disadvantages of weight, playing out on a scale we'd never seen before.  Someone like Stewart can accelerate and change direction faster than any 6'4" player they'd ever seen, probably - I mean, what 6'4" dude weighs 170?
 
The biggest advantage for the women might be court awareness, passing, and coached tactics.  There are a lot of teams out there with shitty coaches and poor team cohesion, and players without extreme basketball IQ.  Would that counteract all the blocks and rebounds the guys would get?  Yeah, unlikely, I agree.  But I'd love to see it.
 
I'm reminded a bit of the time in 1998 that Venus and Serena played against a guy ranked ~200, and got absolutely crushed despite the guy taking it pretty light-heartedly.  But he said he thought it'd be a fair match against someone ranked ~500.  Perhaps Serena today could do a bit better than her 16-year-old self.

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

whoa whoa whoa, I almost skipped over this line until I read it a second time...
 

I love the UConn women and admire them and, truth be told, I play against them routinely.  They are phenomenal.

 
You, ivanvamp the SoSH poster, play against the UConn women's basketball team, "routinely"?  There's a story there I'd love to hear.  Are you a current student who's on their practice squad or something?

 

[ivanvamp]

whoa whoa whoa, I almost skipped over this line until I read it a second time...
 
 
You, ivanvamp the SoSH poster, play against the UConn women's basketball team, "routinely"?  There's a story there I'd love to hear.  Are you a current student who's on their practice squad or something?

 
It's where I work.  (Believe me, being an SU grad working at UConn gets pretty fun.  It will be less so as the rivalry diminishes due to the stupid conference shakeups.) - It also is insight why Geremy Davis is my Pats' binkie for the draft.  
 
By "routinely" I mean during the summer and off season.  My best story is this.  UConn's 2002 team was loaded.  Swin Cash, Tamika Williams, Sue Bird, Diana Taurasi, and Asjha Jones.  Went 39-0.
 
Before their season started they came to the rec center and me (in my early 30's at that point) and four other guys (who were all students) were there and they challenged us. 
 
We beat them seven straight.  
 
But I came away impressed.  Cash was really strong for a woman built with a wiry frame.  Taurasi was absolutely the real deal.  And they had everything.  Good ball movement, fundamentals, shooting, etc.  
 
But we still beat them seven straight.
 
Used a men's ball, I have to add, so maybe they weren't so used to that.  But still.  
 
When I played against Stewart as she entered her freshman year I came away VERY impressed.  She can do it all.  6'4", 7-foot wingspan, uses both hands, inside and out.  Very smooth.  Stronger than you'd think.  Very smart.  Runs like a deer.
 
The UConn women really are very, very, VERY good.
 
It's just that it's a completely different universe playing against men.  Again, it's why Geno (and other top coaches) have their women play against men in practice.  

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

cool stories, man. you should challenge Prince next time he shows up with his crew, too

 

[ivanvamp]

Prince who?

 

[Moosey]

The one who made you pancakes.
 
 
 
 
 
Pancakes.

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

Prince who?

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGqUwr9j8Zc

 

[ivanvamp]

I just couldn't tell if you thought I was making things up.