Manchester United 2014-2015: Van Gaal's Insane Speech at the end of the awards

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Schnerres

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Billy R Ford said:
I think Di Maria could play as a left wingback, but I'm not as sure about right wingback- he's extremely one footed with his left foot, so I don't know how well he would defend the right back area when he tracked back. Given United just signed Shaw for LB though, I think it makes the most sense to change the formation to fit Di Maria in.
 
Di Maria as a LB? I cannot see him there, besides in some weird (but possibly brilliant) LVG-formation of a 3-5-2 with 3 CBs and when opposition has the ball, LM+RM drop back as LB/RB (like what he did with Netherlands at the WC with Kuyt for example). This could happen in matches where ManU is dominated (in possession) or just wants to run the counter. I don´t know if they have the players for this, but this kind of game is always "easier" than a possession-based game.
 
A more normal line-up would feature Di Maria in the midfield on the wing, where he played for Real Madrid or Argentina. Possibly in a 4-4-2 with a diamond, i think he could play on either wing, depending on if you want him to cut to the middle and shoot (like Robben) or if you want him to run/dribble down the line and bring in some crosses.
 

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Some perspective: Arsenal finished with 79 points last year. While that was historically high for a 4th place team, it's probably about what will be necessary to get top 4 in this year's ultra competitive league.

To get to 79, you can only drop 35. Assume a team goes 4-4-4 in fixtures against the other Top 7 clubs (a decent guess for a team finishing 4th out of 7) and that's 20 points dropped already. So you can drop around 15 to the rest of the league. United has already dropped five of that fifteen.

Obviously the season is only two weeks old but this team is in real danger of burying itself early if they don't turn it around relatively soon. This isn't the Bundesliga where LVG's Bayern could flounder for the first couple months and then still shoot to the top of the table with ease once things started clicking.
 

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The fee for Di Maria is widely reported to be £60M with £12M in add ons, only £4M of which are likely to be earned.  So probably around £64M.  That's a lot of clams for a player who, while fantastic in many ways, isn't a goal scorer.
 

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Some perspective: Arsenal finished with 79 points last year. While that was historically high for a 4th place team, it's probably about what will be necessary to get top 4 in this year's ultra competitive league.
To get to 79, you can only drop 35. Assume a team goes 4-4-4 in fixtures against the other Top 7 clubs (a decent guess for a team finishing 4th out of 7) and that's 20 points dropped already. So you can drop around 15 to the rest of the league. United has already dropped five of that fifteen.
Obviously the season is only two weeks old but this team is in real danger of burying itself early if they don't turn it around relatively soon. This isn't the Bundesliga where LVG's Bayern could flounder for the first couple months and then still shoot to the top of the table with ease once things started clicking.
A few years ago there was a joke going around that asked what the main difference was between a triangle and man utd. The triangle had 3 points. This was after three games,and united went on to win the title. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the same will happen this year, but I think its early to start posting about what points are needed for the top 4.

I have no issue with the Di Maria fee.
 

fletcherpost

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United have to overpay. The financial cost to Utd in terms of TV Money, Champion's League money and the brand itself, far outweights the extra millions they might have to spend on players. It sort of reminds me of when City signed Robinho a few years back, more as a statement of intent, a way of opening the door for other players of quality to join a club with ambitions.
 

soxfan121

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ManU continues to collect some of the ugliest talent in the world. 
 
Geez, Angel you are a multimillionaire. Talk to a plastic surgeon about reining in those ears.
 

fletcherpost

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I disagree. It sends out the wrong signal, there are a lot of poor people, especially in South America, who have ears just like him but who can't afford surgery. He's a positive role model for people with unfeasably large ears, I'd like it to stay that way. Be like if Paul Scholes had died his hair blonde or Gazza started using big words.
 

soxfan121

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fletcherpost said:
I disagree. It sends out the wrong signal, there are a lot of poor people, especially in South America, who have ears just like him but who can't afford surgery. He's a positive role model for people with unfeasably large ears, I'd like it to stay that way. Be like if Paul Scholes had died his hair blonde or Gazza started using big words.
 
How does this theory account for Wayne Rooney's hairplugs?
 

soxfan121

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teddykgb said:
 
Or the granny shagging.  I don't know why it fits in here, but I feel it needs to be mentioned.
 
No, I think it fits the ugly theme quite nicely. Wayne, sans plugs, is just attractive enough for grannies.
 

fletcherpost

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David Moyes: I told you i wasn't that bad. (As he slowly withdraws his withering penis from his good lady's gracious rectum.)
 

mgoblue2

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
Seriously...maybe Moyes wasn't the problem.
Maybe? You can contribute SAF's last title to "aura" but the two teams both incoming managers have been nowhere near top four material all the way through.
 

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
Seriously...maybe Moyes wasn't the problem.
 
He was a problem...Pressure was too much for him I thought, and he's a guy who tactically prefers the underdog role. Which I guess would be appropriate with this squad. No one was ready for it though.
 
 
Zomp said:
Can we give LVG at least half a season?
 
Well, of course this is correct. 
 

fletcherpost

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The big question: Does LVG get his cock out? And if so, when? Does he wait until the next defeat, or does he do it before the next match? He won't do it on the training ground, much too cold for that...it's chilly on the west, won't have much impact if it's all shrivelled up like a contracted slug.
 
LVG is in the clear, everyone knows this is a big rebuild. Six months ago, the media were going on about £200M needing spent on the squad. They're about 2/3 the way there, still some way to go.
 

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fletcherpost said:
The big question: Does LVG get his cock out? And if so, when? Does he wait until the next defeat, or does he do it before the next match? He won't do it on the training ground, much too cold for that...it's chilly on the west, won't have much impact if it's all shrivelled up like a contracted slug.
 
LVG is in the clear, everyone knows this is a big rebuild. Six months ago, the media were going on about £200M needing spent on the squad. They're about 2/3 the way there, still some way to go.
 
As much fun as I've been having with Van Gaal, I don't think he's the problem at all.  They aren't looking beyond the idea of what a winning squad would look like.  For example,they lost Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, and Buttner with no plan to replace any of them.  Ferdinand and Buttner were clearly by choice, and while they wouldn't have been part of the next title-winning side, they represented, respectively, one of the three best CBs in the squad and the backup LB/LWB.  Then they go buy one of the top 20 players in the world and no one can quite figure out how the side will be set up in Van Gaal's system.  The handling of Welbeck is another example of this.  They let word get out that they're OK with him leaving when he's going to be a regular contributor to the (admittedly mediocre) side they have right now.  He might not be up to Van Gaal's standard, but he's easily qualified for the XI + bench as the squad is constituted.  It's not like they need the money; they need decent players.  Like Buttner, Welbeck isn't going to be on the Ballon D'Or shortlist, but he can bridge Man U to the next great side.
 
And the buying policy doesn't seem to have a strategy, either. Between the issue of Di Maria's role and overpaying, how much of that £60M is Man U basically flushing away as the cost of making this "statement of intent"?  And if you're going to do that, why not make it for Vidal, who would play a clearly defined role in the Van Gaal system?  Why not make a fuck-you offer for Benatia, who fills a gaping hole in defense?  
 
Man U needed a structural rebuild starting this summer once they decided Moyes wasn't a fit, but from what I've seen, Ed Woodward and the Glazers are buying whatever high-end building materials they can instead of thinking about the big picture.  They might back into a set of parts that can be used to build a winning side, but that would be more by luck than design.  Contrast this approach with Mourinho at Chelsea, who all but admitted that he hated his squad last season, but didn't run off any of his extra parts until he had replacements not only purchased, but bedded in.  
 

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Dlew, I completely agree with everything you said, but with regards to DI Maria, when a player of his caliber is on the market, I think you have to go for it.  It reminds me of when we bought RVP a few years back and everyone said, "Why when you have Rooney?"  You make a player like that fit.
 
Also, again like you said above, the money is there.  The club's revenues will make it so they don't need to worry about FFP (well, unless the midtable stuff becomes permanant) so they can absolutely afford to overpay for Di Maria AND bring in another signing or two.  Vidal, yes, would be the perfect signing.  I've been saying since the beginning of last season that he's the best midfielder in the world.  Benatia?  I don't know if he would have come here.  Bayern can offer just as big in wages and has Champions League football.
 

soxfan121

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Zomp said:
 Benatia?  I don't know if he would have come here.  Bayern can offer just as big in wages and has Champions League football.
 
Signed with Bayern yesterday. 
 

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Zomp, I agree completely with you that for a club like Man U, buying Di Maria if he's available should be a no-brainer.  Whether he's worth the investment comes down to the manager's willingness to be flexible based on the talent in the squad.  Van Gaal switched systems in the Swansea match, so I assume he won't be pig-headed about it, but I do wonder if he's going to be willing to play 4-3-3 from the start if that's how his best XI would line up.
 
This might be better suited for a tactics thread, but one of the fun parts about watching the tactical cam this season has been seeing how the formations really work.  Liverpool came out ostensibly in a 4-3-3 against City, for example, but what that really played as was a 4-3-3 while the ball was being contested, a 3-4-3 when they were trying to work the ball via possession, and a 4-4-1-1 when City were working them.  Seeing how Van Gaal sets up in the various phases will be really interesting, especially once Rojo and Shaw are playing regularly.
 
soxfan121 said:
Signed with Bayern yesterday.
 
Exactly why I brought him up.  Maybe he wouldn't sign for Man U, but if they offered a pile more than the £24M that was rumored--say, £32M--then Roma aren't going to accept the Bayern offer right away, and Bayern might move on to their next target.
 

daveuk

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Zomp said:
Dlew, I completely agree with everything you said, but with regards to DI Maria, when a player of his caliber is on the market, I think you have to go for it.  It reminds me of when we bought RVP a few years back and everyone said, "Why when you have Rooney?"  You make a player like that fit.
 
Also, again like you said above, the money is there.  The club's revenues will make it so they don't need to worry about FFP (well, unless the midtable stuff becomes permanant) so they can absolutely afford to overpay for Di Maria AND bring in another signing or two.  Vidal, yes, would be the perfect signing.  I've been saying since the beginning of last season that he's the best midfielder in the world.  Benatia?  I don't know if he would have come here.  Bayern can offer just as big in wages and has Champions League football.
I'm not sure what caliber of player Di Maria is though. He wasn't picked by Argentina for either the WC semi or final. In the 5 games he did play he scored one goal, didn't register any assists and had a pass completion rate of less than 60%.

I'm no tactical expert and I have no real idea what Man U are trying to achieve in terms of the type of team they want to put out there, but for £60 million I'd want a game changer, not a supporting player. Wouldn't surprise me if this wasn't LVG's first choice.
 

slamminsammya

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daveuk said:
I'm not sure what caliber of player Di Maria is though. He wasn't picked by Argentina for either the WC semi or final. In the 5 games he did play he scored one goal, didn't register any assists and had a pass completion rate of less than 60%.
 
Di Maria had fitness concerns preventing his selection in those WC games. See here. Otherwise he is a no-brainer choice for Argentina. And the side were very clearly better with him on the field.
 
And I don't understand your use of "supporting player" here; is your argument that a game-changer can only be a scorer? 
 

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daveuk said:
I'm not sure what caliber of player Di Maria is though. He wasn't picked by Argentina for either the WC semi or final. In the 5 games he did play he scored one goal, didn't register any assists and had a pass completion rate of less than 60%.
 
He had a 82% pass completion rate in La Liga last year (better than average)
And he led La Liga with 17 assists in 27 starts.
Club play is going to be more indicative of talent -- more games, more practice etc.
 
Right now United does not have any WC players on the wings. They have either players who are forced to play out there (Welbeck), or young talent (Januzaj, Shaw) or Meh (Young, Valencia).
LVG will make it work.  As Zomp said, if you can get a player this level, you buy him.
 

daveuk

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slamminsammya said:
Di Maria had fitness concerns preventing his selection in those WC games. See here. Otherwise he is a no-brainer choice for Argentina. And the side were very clearly better with him on the field.
 
And I don't understand your use of "supporting player" here; is your argument that a game-changer can only be a scorer?
Not at all. Goalkeepers can be game changers - see Howard, Tim.

In Man U's case I don't think that he is going to play up front ahead of Rooney or RVP if they are fit. It's just that for me if he doesn't score goals, what will he actually contribute? LVG is very unlikely to play three up front, so Di Maria will be expected to provide goal scoring opportunities for others from the middle or the wing which relies on passing accuracy, crossing ability, making space etc. I'm not sure who I would buy to provide that but I'd hope to spend less than £60 million.

Maybe they could have made a play for James Rodriguez from Columbia who cost Real Madrid slightly more but is three years younger. Another option might have been Adam Lallana who is the same age as Di Maria, but only cost £25 million. Aren't both seen as attacking midfield players, so would fit the same role?

Mea culpa re being injured. Didn't spot that as he was on the bench as one of the named substitutes.
 

daveuk

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MOD said:
He had a 82% pass completion rate in La Liga last year (better than average)
And he led La Liga with 17 assists in 27 starts.
Club play is going to be more indicative of talent -- more games, more practice etc.
 
Right now United does not have any WC players on the wings. They have either players who are forced to play out there (Welbeck), or young talent (Januzaj, Shaw) or Meh (Young, Valencia).
LVG will make it work.  As Zomp said, if you can get a player this level, you buy him.
I guess that time will tell. La Liga and the EPL are not alike. He will get less time on the ball to assess the play and pick out passes.

Like I said I'm no expert, but it doesn't seem like a great fit.
 

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daveuk said:
I guess that time will tell. La Liga and the EPL are not alike. He will get less time on the ball to assess the play and pick out passes.

Like I said I'm no expert, but it doesn't seem like a great fit.
 
You won't find someone who takes more glee in United's demise than I do, but you've got a seriously misplaced opinion of Di Maria.  He's a fantastic player and United probably need to get him if they can (although the price was enormous). The only thing you can say is that just trying to stockpile players who are good but don't fit together is sort of how they got in this mess in the first place.  I agree with Zomp that this is a lot like RvP but I think that's a negative, not a positive.  RvP got them that title, so maybe that makes it worthwhile, but they've been dealing with trying to play Rooney and RvP since then, submarined Chicarito's and Kagawa's value, and got stuck trying to piece it together since.  I think Di Maria is so multi dimensional that I think they'll have no trouble working him into the side assuming they abandon this silly 3-5-2.  Di Maria isn't going to provide wide cover defensively, he just can't, and asking him to probably puts the above pictured wonderboy Shaw on the bench.  Assuming they'll go to some 4 at the back system, Di Maria is a fantastic player who will improve them.
 

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It's clearly an overpay by at least 20m, but they are a better side with him than without.  
 
Comparing Di Maria to James or Lallana is not helpful, they play different positions.  At Madrid Di Maria's best position was on the left side of a midfield 3, getting up and down to link midfield and attack.  James and Lallana both generally play further forward as something like a #10, a role United already have filled by Juan Mata.
 
They can switch to 4-3-1-2 and play Di Maria on the left side of the midfield 3 along with Herrera and another CM (would probably be Carrick if he were healthy).  They still don't have any good wingers, but in this day and age you can't really play 2 strikers + true wingers anyway because you won't have numbers in midfield, and LVG seems committed to playing Rooney and RVP together.  Their width will have to come from the fullbacks.  Rafael and Shaw are a decent set of fullbacks when healthy.
 
Here's a good Michael Cox piece on how Di Maria fits tactically: http://http://www.espnfc.us/blog/tactics-and-analysis/67/post/2003603/louis-van-gaals-tactical-evolution-at-manchester-united
 
United shouldn't be done buying.  They still need another defensive midfielder and maybe another defender, although Rojo helps (esp. since he can cover at both CB and LB).  But their CM options alongside Herrera are Flecher/Cleverly/Carrick, and both Herrera and Carrick are hurt right now.  Fletcher/Cleverly is just not good enough, even with Di Maria alongside them.  Fletcher was an excellent player five years ago, but he's barely played in four years and is now on the wrong side of 30.  Cleverly is just mediocre.
 

mgoblue2

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daveuk said:
Another option might have been Adam Lallana who is the same age as Di Maria, but only cost £25 million.
Only? They overpaid by about £10 million!
Edit- plus they wouldn't play him in the Mata role and on the wing he's not miles better than Valencia.
 

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coremiller said:
They can switch to 4-3-1-2 and play Di Maria on the left side of the midfield 3 along with Herrera and another CM (would probably be Carrick if he were healthy).  They still don't have any good wingers, but in this day and age you can't really play 2 strikers + true wingers anyway because you won't have numbers in midfield, and LVG seems committed to playing Rooney and RVP together.  Their width will have to come from the fullbacks.  Rafael and Shaw are a decent set of fullbacks when healthy.
 
Here's a good Michael Cox piece on how Di Maria fits tactically: http://http://www.espnfc.us/blog/tactics-and-analysis/67/post/2003603/louis-van-gaals-tactical-evolution-at-manchester-united
I think that's a solid analysis and 4-3-1-2 makes sense in the abstract. But I do wonder about some of the complicating factors specific to this situation. LVG seems like a fairly pragmatic coach, willing to switch formations to suit his personnel. On the other hand, probably the greatest hallmark of his football philosophy in general has traditionally been width and using the whole field, so embracing such a narrow formation (not just as a very temporary tweak, but as a baseline system) would be an interesting departure. Maybe more importantly, they simply don't have any backup fullbacks beyond youth team players, having gotten rid of Fabio and Buttner in the past two windows without replacing them. Rojo can provide cover at LB if you want from him what Argentina did (to stay at home). I can't see him getting a run of games at LB in a system where he needs to motor up the field constantly to provide attacking width and deliver crosses. They could play Valencia at RB but I think that's an option where you almost get the worst of both worlds, a defensive liability when played at the RB position who also seems to have lost much of his attacking ability. I wouldn't be surprised if they do try 4-3-1-2 once Shaw and Rafael are back healthy. But its another situation in which the lack of long term planning about the squad really complicates their ability to make the pieces fit together.
 

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mgoblue2 said:
Only? They overpaid by about £10 million!
Edit- plus they wouldn't play him in the Mata role and on the wing he's not miles better than Valencia.
 
Please.  If Everton had signed Lallana for 25M, the entire Everton thread would have been  :fap:
 
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