JWH and Bloom in Light of Mookie's Comments

BaseballJones

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I can be of two minds at the same time on this:

(1) I can understand why they traded Mookie and even agree with it on some level,

and

(2) I can hate everything about that trade, because Mookie is a generational player and one of my very favorite Red Sox players ever.

Both are completely true for me.
 

catomatic

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Someone upthread mentioned a thought experiment with Buehler and Urias type starters in the Boston pipeline around the time of the FO’s decision on Mookie. That strikes me as an excellent observation about their (I still believe flawed) calculus about windows of contention for the crown. One way to view Mookie’s departure is through the lens of Boston’s abject failure to develop frontline starters. Bello might well be a new data point but who could they have projected might preclude the need to spend exorbitant sums on the rotation in order to compete? And yes, I agree, ‘21 was an outlier. I also agree that I have absolutely not been the same fan since Mookie was bewilderingly shown the door. I’m grateful for the four championships this ownership has won. But with the loss of Mookie, for me — notwithstanding all secondary variables — they also lost any and all benefit of the doubt.

Edit; Typo. And apologies for saying the same thing others just said more succinctly.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I don't really understand your point? Sure, the average ticket price is inflated in part because capacity is more limited at Fenway than at other venues, but you really think the price to attend Fenway would be drastically different if they had 4,000 more seats? What about the Henry ownership would make you think that is the case?

And my point was not just about cost directly, it's the whole aspect of Fenway being marketed as a jewel of America, which creates a tourist-friendly atmosphere which is great for Henry and ownership, because tourists will come to the ballpark regardless on how interesting the team on the field is. You go to Fenway and it doesn't seem like it is aimed anymore at your typical Red Sox fan--that combined with the team balking at Mookie and also making moves that in my opinion, have hurt local fan connections with the team, are what bothers me.
Drastically different? Probably not. But to be on equal footing with teams with larger stadium capacities, they need to have higher ticket prices to be in the same financial ballpark. That's just a fact. It seems by comparing ticket prices to payroll, you're saying #1 in one category should mean #1 (or nearly so) in the other. That's not really the case.

The other stuff is just perceptions. Can't really argue those because everyone's perceptions are going to be different.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I can be of two minds at the same time on this:

(1) I can understand why they traded Mookie and even agree with it on some level,

and

(2) I can hate everything about that trade, because Mookie is a generational player and one of my very favorite Red Sox players ever.

Both are completely true for me.
100% true for me as well.
 

Yo La Tengo

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That article/interview makes me revisit my stance on the trade. I believed Mookie was determined to test free agency but would consider a monstrous, industry shaking deal to stay in Boston. Then, when it became apparent after the trade to LA that the market had shifted due to COVID, he ended up signing a gigantic (but not monstrous) deal that many of us wished he had signed here in Boston.

It is interesting that Mookie says he was never offered the 10/$300 million deal. Was that deal floated but not offered? I think that approach is common in negotiations and, at this point, who knows. But that is only part of the puzzle. The next part that should have been asked is what would it have taken to sign long term in Boston during that 2019/2020 offseason? My suspicion is that it would have taken WAY more than 12/$365 and that's why he got traded.

This sentence also grabbed my attention: "Betts still watches every Red Sox game he can and talks to manager Alex Cora once a week." As said earlier, I have no reason to think Betts is not telling the truth and it is a shame he's no longer on the Red Sox. And I doubt we'll ever get the full story.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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So I have some questions.

Do you also believe Mookie?
So I have a question. Though I've never negotiated a baseball contract, parties can talk about parameters all of the time.

Mookie could be technically correct that the Red Sox "never offered him" 10 years / $300M, but here's my question: do you think there was any point in the negotiations where Mookie or his agent that Mookie would even consider a 10/$300M contract?

Mookie is a player and in that role, he's basically an entertainer. A very talented one. Mookie wants to be the good guy in this. To his credit, Chaim has never really responded (as far as I know) to any of Mookie's comments.

If you don't think that Mookie ever would have seriously entertained a 10/$300M offer - and it's pretty obvious that I don't - then I'm not sure why his insistence that he was never "offered" such a deal matters.
 

Mystic Merlin

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It’s worth noting that isolating 2023 when examining their payroll is misleading because they’ve historically lived in the top 5-6 in payroll: http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm

I obviously don’t think this distinction destroys the thesis that the Sox earn enough revenue such that they should never fail to keep a player like Mookie for financial reasons, but I think it’s out of proportion to suggest this ownership group hasn’t regularly spend a lot of money relative to other teams, and at least commensurate with their market size.
 
Mar 30, 2023
194
Same. And am frustrated people are still whining about Mookie. FFS move on. This ownership group won more than I ever would have hoped. They're incredibly great.
Fan policing like this is incredibly lame. Mookie Betts is almost certain to be the greatest Red Sox position player any one on this board will ever see play for the rest of their lives. Hooray for you that you don't care that he was traded. Other people do.
 

jose melendez

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I hated trading Mookie, but my fear was never that they’d refuse to spend, it was that they would ultimately give the deal they should have given Mookie to someone not as good. Devers has real limitations, but given the age at which his contract ends, I don’t think it’s the utter shitshow I feared.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Fan policing like this is incredibly lame. Mookie Betts is almost certain to be the greatest Red Sox position player any one on this board will ever see play for the rest of their lives. Hooray for you that you don't care that he was traded. Other people do.
One can care that he was traded and still not care to re-re-re-re-re-re-litigate the trade ad infinitum.
 

Sin Duda

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Yep. And it's worked out for the Rangers too, for this year anyway.

But that gets to the question of whether or not an extension was a good idea or not. My point (which I muddied by tacking that last point on) is that putting that issue aside, the return for one year of Betts was at least a solid B.
The Rangers are sinking like a rock so the narrative is not yet complete on their season. It seems having multiple players on longterm mega contracts is difficult to manage and one that puts a premium on cheap, young talent providing leage-average to all-star level performances from them. And those mega deal players have to play at a high level.

I don't follow the Mets or Padres, but the Yankees are an example of mega contracts biting them: this year, Cole is outstanding. Judge is great but missed lots of games. Stanton continues to underperform and Rodon's contract has been a disaster year 1. If 3 of 4 were playing to their expected levels, the Yankees would likely be in the mix for a WC birth. To me, JWH wanted to reset the salary base, and saw he wouldn't get the hometown discount from Mookie. It's a bitter pill for me as a fan. I think Henry's baseball guys missed on Price and Sale, and Raffy's contractions may be a mistake too. Mookie would have been my choice in retrospect, but the team isn't given the luxury of hindsight.
 
Mar 30, 2023
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One can care that he was traded and still not care to re-re-re-re-re-re-litigate the trade ad infinitum.
Sure, but absolutely no one is forcing anyone him relitigate it, and he didn't even say that it's the relitigation that bothers him. What bothers him, apparently, is that that other fans are upset about the trade and not thankful enough for what the ownership group has done.
 

JCizzle

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I hated trading Mookie, but my fear was never that they’d refuse to spend, it was that they would ultimately give the deal they should have given Mookie to someone not as good. Devers has real limitations, but given the age at which his contract ends, I don’t think it’s the utter shitshow I feared.
Curious, would you rather have Mookie’s deal or Devers on the books? They were never going to pay all three since they missed the Braves window, but picking the right one to pay was the critical decision.
 

astrozombie

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To the original point of the post, as to whether to believe Mookie... I do. I think ownership knew he wanted to get paid, knew that the amount he was going to get paid exceeded what they were comfortable with and as such, had some cursory discussions seeing if they could get him to take a heavy discount (something he was upfront about not doing) and when that predictably went nowhere, that was that. I am pretty anti-Bloom, but I do have sympathy for the fact that the Betts situation was a result of ownership's directives.
 

greenmountains

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There is one important thing in "is Mookie telling the truth" that needs to be included- the entire world changed a month or two after the trade. COVID changed the dynamic of what a risk in waiting out free agency was for Mookie. He said over and over that he wanted to test the market. That he didn't want to sell himself short. Baseball execs were predicting $400 million contracts. COVID changed that, but it was how things were playing out. We need to remember that. Accepting the deal LA offered was a reaction to the uncertainty that may ahead when the entire world stopped.
THIS 100%. Mookie was quoted as saying, "I'm going to test free agency", "I'm betting on myself to free agency" on multiple occasions before the trade. Were these negotiating tactics or his real viewpoint? Maybe it was pure negotiating tactics, but he said it, multiple times. I did and still believe him. He was traded because DD messed up the salary structure of this team, ownership hired the guy from the Tampa family - who put a competitive product on the field with bare bones salary - with the responsibility to "fix this mess." Signing Mookie to a $30/$35 million per deal wasn't going to fix anything. Bloom played the hand he was dealt.

Then COVID happened. Mookie didn't test free agency, at least in part, because the entire world was an unknown. I firmly believe he was going to test free agency. He only signed with the Dodgers after the world shifted.

Do I wish he could have been a life long Red Sox? Helz yes.
Do I wish the Sox had the current salary structure in place then....to try and blow him out of the water? Again yes.
Do I think the Sox tried to get a long term commitment out of him at a team friendly price. Yeap.
And I still cheer for Mookie Betts. He's a life long Sox in my heart.
I think he's an honest and sincere person and I don't believe he's "lying", but I think there is some revisionist history. And crazily, I don't hold that against him.
 

Ale Xander

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Same. And am frustrated people are still whining about Mookie. FFS move on. This ownership group won more than I ever would have hoped. They're incredibly great.
Are they supposed to stop trying to win because they won in 2018?

Kraft/BB and Brown/Red didn’t stop after winning multiples
 

Otis Foster

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…times 1000%.

This is the single most insightful analysis I’ve seen on the that situation over the many months we’ve had to absorb it.

IIRC, it was clear when the gravity of the Covid epidemic fully struck, that it affected everybody’s calculations on value, for both players and management. There is no telling, if Mookie would have accepted the Dodger extension absent, the impact of the epidemic, but I certainly had the impression that he changed course midstream at a time when everyone was changing course.

I don’t think he’s lying. Like others, I think he is an outstanding individual as well as a great ball player. I think of the things he did when he was here in Boston, like quietly slipping out with food for the homeless, which you don’t see every day with highly compensated ball players. I do think there is revisionist history here and can understand it. I can’t fault him for it. It cost him nothing to blow a few kisses at the Red Sox fan base. Also, I can’t fault Bloom for having to clean up a terrible salary, structure, with the Sales extension and Prices remaining contract, hanging over them like a guillotine. Remember, the tax structure at the time, entailed, not only incremental cost, but also those the risk of impacting the international free agency, market, and draft choices, both of which were critical resources for rebuilding the team.
 

trekfan55

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I can be of two minds at the same time on this:

(1) I can understand why they traded Mookie and even agree with it on some level,

and

(2) I can hate everything about that trade, because Mookie is a generational player and one of my very favorite Red Sox players ever.

Both are completely true for me.
OK, you have said this better than I could ever have.

I am using this, with your permission.
 

chawson

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The trade was bad. And I have to believe Mookie.

But I think there are some good faith arguments to support how it all played out. I've always assumed that both parties have prioritized saving face and left some factors unsaid for the sake of preserving everyone's legacy. For someone who had aspirations of starting a production company and of being "the next Jackie Robinson"—both worthy pursuits—I have a hard time understanding how Mookie would have preferred Boston as the ideal place for that. Maybe those things didn't come into focus until L.A. I doubt it, but who knows.

If we take Bloom's comments from last winter at face value, the Sox probably saw risk in Mookie aging like McCutchen, another smallish outfielder. He still might. Mookie's outfield defense has dropped off, and it would be hard to absorb a decade worth of a 105-110 wRC+ with average to bad defense in right field over his thirties. He's having a tremendous year at the plate this season, but injuries did hamper him in 2021-22.

I remember a few people here laughing at the idea of moving Mookie back to the infield when it was pitched (not by me) back in 2017-18. I wonder how viewing him as a 2B would have changed the Sox FO's valuation.

I think it's awful that he's no longer a Red Sox. But I still don't think we have the full picture.
 

joe dokes

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Are they supposed to stop trying to win because they won in 2018?
Of course not. But I believe you're begging the question.

Sure, but absolutely no one is forcing anyone him relitigate it, and he didn't even say that it's the relitigation that bothers him. What bothers him, apparently, is that that other fans are upset about the trade and not thankful enough for what the ownership group has done.
Correct. No one is "forcing" anyone to relitigate this. But if [insert worst tv show in history here *or* insert your favorite tv show in history here] was on EVERY single channel before and after every other program, it might be bothersome. And I don't pretend to speak for anyone else, but I am not bothered solely by those who are "upset." IMO, the entire topic has been covered from just about every conceivable angle.

If his being in Boston for the weekend brings it back to the table, so be it. But he's gone now.
 

BigSoxFan

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The trade was bad. And I have to believe Mookie.

But I think there are some good faith arguments to support how it all played out. I've always assumed that both parties have prioritized saving face and left some factors unsaid for the sake of preserving everyone's legacy. For someone who had aspirations of starting a production company and of being "the next Jackie Robinson"—both worthy pursuits—I have a hard time understanding how he'd have preferred Boston as the ideal place for that. Maybe those things didn't come into focus until L.A. I doubt it, but who knows.

If we take Bloom's comments from last winter at face value, the Sox probably saw risk in Mookie aging like McCutchen, another smallish outfielder. He still might. Mookie's outfield defense has dropped off, and it would be hard to absorb a decade worth of a 105-110 wRC+ with average to bad defense in right field over his thirties.

I remember a few people here laughing at the idea of moving Mookie back to the infield when it was pitched (not by me) back in 2017-18. I wonder how viewing him as a 2B would have changed the Sox FO's valuation.

I think it's awful that he's no longer a Red Sox. But I still don't think we have the full picture.
For me, a big piece of the “full picture” is Mayer’s career. Quite simply, you don’t get Mayer if prime Mookie is on the team in 2020. If MM turns into the player that we all want him to be, that would soften the blow a decent amount for me.

I still wanted Mookie back but that contract still has a ton of years remaining so too soon to write the history books just yet.
 

Otis Foster

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It's like running into the beautiful and intelligent woman who dumped your long term relationship for the wealthy young stud with a Maserati. You encounter her on the street, she's gracious and warm, reminisces fondly about your times together but makes it abundantly clear that she's committed to her new beau, and you're history.

Just when you think you've gotten her out of your mind.....
 

chawson

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For me, a big piece of the “full picture” is Mayer’s career. Quite simply, you don’t get Mayer if prime Mookie is on the team in 2020. If MM turns into the player that we all want him to be, that would soften the blow a decent amount for me.

I still wanted Mookie back but that contract still has a ton of years remaining so too soon to write the history books just yet.
Agreed. Can't really factor Mayer into the decision, but he's definitely part of the overall equation. (Or at least, the value of the difference between Mayer and someone like Andrew Painter or Sal Frelick).

This would look a lot differently if the Sox end up with Juan Soto in 15 months. Or whoever the next big splash is.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Isnt part of the calculus not just about Mookie, but about the state of the team/entire system? The 2019 team was not very successful + not much talent in the pipeline...so couldnt the FO have been saying to themselves "Mookie will be great and worth 30+ mil a year for the next few seasons, but we dont think our team looks like it will be a constant threat to win those years...and once we are a constant threat Mookie will not be worth the 30+ mil a year."
While this is true, the transcendent superstars should make this point irrelevant.

I think what happened, as others are alluding to, is someone high up thought that Mookie was going to age like Andrew McCutchen and fall off a cliff very quickly. I remember there being an article or two at the time of his exit that a player of his type, who seemed to rely on quick hands a lot more than the average player, was a prime candidate for an early end to his peak, and that was the given reason from blah blah anonymous sources that he was never offered a market-rate contract.

That judgement, obviously, has not panned out.
 

jezza1918

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While this is true, the transcendent superstars should make this point irrelevant.

I think what happened, as others are alluding to, is someone high up thought that Mookie was going to age like Andrew McCutchen and fall off a cliff very quickly. I remember there being an article or two at the time of his exit that a player of his type, who seemed to rely on quick hands a lot more than the average player, was a prime candidate for an early end to his peak, and that was the given reason from blah blah anonymous sources that he was never offered a market-rate contract.

That judgement, obviously, has not panned out.
Yeah I think the McCutchen fall off a cliff risk was part of their risk/reward equation too...but even if you think it was the ONLY part of the equation that is still a very different argument than so much of what the talk about this trade has been in the past - ie some form of "ownership doesnt care about winning anymore." As tired as this debate can be, I do think as time passes cooler heads prevail a bit and this thread seems far more substantive and productive than past threads on it have been.
 

patinorange

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It's like running into the beautiful and intelligent woman who dumped your long term relationship for the wealthy young stud with a Maserati. You encounter her on the street, she's gracious and warm, reminisces fondly about your times together but makes it abundantly clear that she's committed to her new beau, and you're history.

Just when you think you've gotten her out of your mind.....
Under the new alignment we play the Dodgers every year. It's like you and your ex have an event you are both required to attend for 3 or 4 days. And she brings the new beau. Painful.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Sorry, what was the error with Moncada? He had a continental breakfast with the Red Sox before he was packaged with Kopech to the White Sox for Sale, and pre-extension Sale was probably more valuable to the Red Sox than post-trade Moncada has been for the White Sox.
Sorry, I meant Castillo. Not sure why I mixed those up.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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For me, a big piece of the “full picture” is Mayer’s career. Quite simply, you don’t get Mayer if prime Mookie is on the team in 2020. If MM turns into the player that we all want him to be, that would soften the blow a decent amount for me.

I still wanted Mookie back but that contract still has a ton of years remaining so too soon to write the history books just yet.
Are you saying part of the plan in trading Mookie was to have a terrible 2020 so they'd have an opportunity to draft a highly regarded prospect when other even worse teams all passed on him? That strikes me as having a pretty remarkable degree of clairvoyance, especially given that they didn't know about Sale's Tommy John yet (if I recall correctly) or Erod's Covid issues.
 

BigSoxFan

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Are you saying part of the plan in trading Mookie was to have a terrible 2020 so they'd have an opportunity to draft a highly regarded prospect when other even worse teams all passed on him? That strikes me as having a pretty remarkable degree of clairvoyance, especially given that they didn't know about Sale's Tommy John yet (if I recall correctly) or Erod's Covid issues.
No, I am saying it is an unintended consequence of the Mookie decision, which, again, I didn’t agree with at the time.

It doesn’t factor into the evaluation of the decision itself but it’s part of the calculus when weighing how it all turned out.
 

BringBackMo

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While I admitted my negative view of Bloom overall, because I thought I needed to do so for the reason stated above, I don't intend for this thread to become a referendum on him. I intend it to be more about if and how your views have changed based on Mookie's comments.
Oh, OK.

It saddens me that we need to look to a Dodgers-focused publication to get anything like a reasonable and nuanced take on this situation...but it doesn't surprise me in the least. This topic has poisoned Red Sox discussion on this site. As the guys at something called Dodgers Way point out, Mookie's latest comment that he turned down the offer doesn't quite jibe with what he's said in the past.

Entering his Fenway Park return series this weekend, Betts told the Boston Globe that the rumored 10-year, $300 million contract he "turned down" from the Red Sox never actually materialized. This directly contradicts something Betts stated in 2020.
As you can see here, Mookie told ESPN in 2020 that he didn't regret turning the offer down.
Betts reportedly turned down a $300 million extension from the Red Sox last offseason, but said he does not regret it.

"Once I make a decision, I make a decision," Betts added. "I'm not going back to question myself. I don't worry about that. The market will be what the market is. We'll just kind of cross that bridge when we get there. But for right now, it's just the [health and safety] things that I'm worried about. That whole thing [free agency] is on the back burner."
Again, no surprise at all that people who dislike the ownership group and Bloom are jumping all over Mookie's quote. What is a little shocking, though, is that we're now actually implying, as the OP does, that any of the decision to trade Mookie Betts falls on Chaim Bloom, and that Bloom has somehow been complicit in the deceit of spreading knowingly false rumors that Mookie turned down a 10-year, $300 million contract. That offer--or reported offer--was made prior to Bloom's arrival, and Bloom was brought here with express orders to trade Mookie. Everyone knows that. Even the guys who write for Dodgers way.
Chaim Bloom has made plenty of impressive tactical maneuvers during his time heading the Red Sox. This one, dictated by ownership, was not one of them. The Red Sox will be fine. They would be better if they'd extended Mookie Betts. They didn't. It is what it is.
And a few final words from those sages out west (if only we were capable around here of such wisdom)
Only Bostonians trying to defend their reputation against the baseball world's barbs (which have now mostly been silenced?) care. Boston ownership prioritized financial flexibility in a Betts trade by including David Price's contract, rather than maximizing their asset. If Betts was "always fated to be in LA," Boston took the less prosperous path in sending him there. Either way, the Red Sox lost this trade, but have moved on in so many respects since that pivot point, executing a different (and fairly successful) plan. So why do their own fans insist on digging in and getting to the bottom of this barely mysterious moment in history?
 
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Delicious Sponge

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Henry is a really, really weird guy.

He was probably sure he had a brilliant plan to trade Mookie that would pay huge dividends. I doubt he took fan reaction to account — maybe he thought the 4 championships would let him to whatever he wanted.

He was wrong on all accounts.

Since they bought the team they’ve been willing to do lots of aggressive and smart things to win championships. This is such an obviously bad decision — and so poorly handled from a PR perspective — it’s hard to understand it as other than the result of some really weird (and too clever) ideas and no one being able to truly challenge the boss.
 

geoflin

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Regarding what Mookie said I believe him that he wanted and expected to be here but also believe that he intended to test free agency and the open market. Both can be true, he may have planned to see what offers he got, at the time generally expected to be $400 M or more, bring them back to the Sox and ask them what's the best they could do. Maybe he would have taken less than the best offer to stay here. But the Sox couldn't know that at the time nor could they predict what other offers he might have gotten. Of course everything changed with Covid and had the Sox known what he would eventually sign for maybe they would have matched $365 M for 12 years.
As much as I hated to see him go I personally would not have been in favor of paying him, or anybody else, $400 M or more for 12 years. I happen to think the risk outweighs the reward. So I understand that at the time the best option was to trade him for the best package available.
 

Shaky Walton

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Again, no surprise at all that people who dislike the ownership group and Bloom are jumping all over Mookie's quote. What is a little shocking, though, is that we're now actually implying, as the OP does, that any of the decision to trade Mookie Betts falls on Chaim Bloom, and that Bloom has somehow been complicit in the deceit of spreading knowingly false rumors that Mookie turned down a 10-year, $300 million contract. That offer--or reported offer--was made prior to Bloom's arrival, and Bloom was brought here with express orders to trade Mookie. Everyone knows that. Even the guys who write for Dodgers way.
I'n not sure where you are getting that implication from. Perhaps something I said. Perhaps poor writing on my part.

But let me remove any doubt. My intention was to put this on Henry and Bloom. Where one begins and the other ends, I don't know. I'm guessing that Bloom was hired to carry out Henry's vision, and the two of them work collaboratively, with Bloom setting the stage consistent with the agreed direction, and Henry signing off.

The Red Sox have put out narratives through the media for decades. Could anyone really believe the messaging around Betts was all down to Bloom? If my post implied that then my writing needs a lot of work. It probably does anyway, but I don't think I said that and I certainly don't believe it.

Good find on Betts' comments at the time of his signing. I don't know if that squarely contradicts his current comments but it is interesting. I wonder what Mookie would say if he was confronted with that quote. Probably not much. He would not exactly be cross examined by the media and would be given plenty of room to wiggle away without really explaining himself.

Last, your comment that Bloom was brought to Boston with the express order to trade Betts is not supported. Of if it is, please show us. At minimum, not everyone knows that.
 

pk1627

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Mookie’s been off the team for 4 years and I’m over it. He had a nice hr off Murphy. Congrats to him.

Do I believe Mookie? Hell no.When somebody says, “why would I lie,” they are lying. If he was looking at houses, it sure was kept quiet.

What Mookie did say, over and over and over, was that he was going to test free agency. Even that was a lie. He grabbed his guaranteed money fast at the first sign of uncertainty.

I hope he holds up. I really do. Why would I lie?
 

Seels

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If you believe Mookie Betts, the narrative that Mookie was itching to leave Boston and was never offered $300 mm was false and very likely something that the Sox put out there to mollify fans and justify the trade.



https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/08/24/sports/mookie-betts-red-sox-trade/?event=event25

Until Betts made these comments, my view of the Betts' trade was negative but also nuanced. While there are no black and white rules, and there are always a multitude of factors that must be considered when evaluating any trade, my general rule of thumb is that the team that ends up with the best player, especially if that player is a generational talent, wins the trade. So I looked at this trade as a mistake, but comforted myself with the fact that they at least came up with Verdugo and Wong, and I bought that Mookie's heart was not in Boston and that his personality was not suited for the intensity of Boston. Not that he could not thrive in Boston. But that ultimately, he preferred to be elsewhere, and that the Sox were faced with a Hobson's Choice. And as painful as it was to trade Betts, it was a lot better than seeing him walk with no return, and the odds of him walking unless they overpaid him, perhaps by a wide margin, made the bitter pill one that it was at least defensible to swallow.

So when I read Mookie's comments, I'm left with two options. One is to believe him. The other is to think that he's masterfully playing the media and the fans, and having it both ways. He gets to be good with the Boston fans, and totally slam Henry and Bloom, and at the same time, be in LA and away from the Boston "heat."

I choose to believe him. I cannot know what was in his heart at the time. But I think he is telling the truth.

I say that because of my sense of him (from afar, for sure) and because I am not immune from the larger context. That is, that Henry brought in someone to run baseball operations whose mode of being was the antithesis of Dave Dombrowski's heavy spending approach, and who came out of an organization that somehow was able to win without spending like a big market team. And I have seen that Henry has been, in stark contrast to his prior years in ownership, almost shockingly out of the spotlight and not accountable in any sense to his fan base. Whether that's out of lack of interest in the Red Sox, in light of his soccer team and other interests or a genuinely held belief that the Dombowski approach is not sustainable over time, I will leave to others. But it's clear that JWH's approach is in line with not paying up, or even market value, for Mookie. Henry might have looked at the Yankees' deal with Ellsbury, for example, and felt like he had dodged a bullet. I can't find it now, but I distinctly recall Tom Werner predicting that the Mookie deal will look very differently over the latter half of its duration, and indeed that may prove true.

So I do believe Mookie, and in turn, my view of Henry and Bloom, has totally soured. Make no mistake, I have not been a Bloom fan for a while. I know he has made many strong moves. But I have an overall very negative evaluation of him, and have been truly surprised at the extent to which many on this site seem to support him. That discussion is not for now. I am only mentioning it because I am admitting my biases. When I say that I believe Mookie, and the fact that I do has changed my view of Henry and Bloom, it's important to be intellectually honest and admit that I was already very disappointed with their overall approach.

But now, it's different. Now, I can't defend that trade. Now, I view it as the single worst decision a Boston team has made in my lifetime. Now, I view it in the same general category of mouth vomit as bringing Pedro back for the 8th (not that I want to discuss that now, and not that I don't understand that others defend that move; and I know that an in game decision is different in kind than a personnel decision).

So I have some questions.

Do you also believe Mookie?

If not, why not?

If so, does it also change your view of Henry and Bloom? Do you also now view them much more negatively than you did before? Or does it turn your view more dramatically?

And what of the trade? Is your view of it impacted by Betts' comments?

While I admitted my negative view of Bloom overall, because I thought I needed to do so for the reason stated above, I don't intend for this thread to become a referendum on him. I intend it to be more about if and how your views have changed based on Mookie's comments.

If this conversation has been developed elsewhere, perhaps this thread is unnecessary and should be deleted. Hopefully, that is not the case.
There's no reason to not believe Betts given the history of the ownership group running other players out of town.
 

Seels

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Jul 20, 2005
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I do believe Mookie and I thought Chad Finn’s recent piece in the Globe on this was excellent. I’ve always felt the way that he so succinctly puts it - if the Sox couldn’t find a way to keep Mookie, what are we even doing here? What is a team like the Red Sox working towards if not to be able to invest whatever it takes to keep a generational, homegrown, beloved talent like Mookie?

This trade continues to leave an extraordinarily bitter taste in my mouth and I’m not sure what it will take for me to get back to feeling the devotion to the Sox that I did pre-trade.
Next to impossible for me. They'd have to have a mulligan and show that they're willing to pay premium for a 2nd Mookie. I doubt I live long enough for that to happen, and Henry certainly won't.
 

BringBackMo

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Jul 15, 2005
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I'n not sure where you are getting that implication from. Perhaps something I said. Perhaps poor writing on my part.

But let me remove any doubt. My intention was to put this on Henry and Bloom. Where one begins and the other ends, I don't know. I'm guessing that Bloom was hired to carry out Henry's vision, and the two of them work collaboratively, with Bloom setting the stage consistent with the agreed direction, and Henry signing off.

The Red Sox have put out narratives through the media for decades. Could anyone really believe the messaging around Betts was all down to Bloom? If my post implied that then my writing needs a lot of work. It probably does anyway, but I don't think I said that and I certainly don't believe it.

Good find on Betts' comments at the time of his signing. I don't know if that squarely contradicts his current comments but it is interesting. I wonder what Mookie would say if he was confronted with that quote. Probably not much. He would not exactly be cross examined by the media and would be given plenty of room to wiggle away without really explaining himself.

Last, your comment that Bloom was brought to Boston with the express order to trade Betts is not supported. Of if it is, please show us. At minimum, not everyone knows that.
What Mookie would say if confronted with those comments? What do YOU say now that you are aware of this contradiction? You're the one who started this thread because of this new quote. Does the fact that he's said something different in the past change your thinking in any way?

My take? For the 752nd and final time:
  • Mookie was intent on free agency.
  • He bet on himself at every step and was looking forward to testing his value on the open market.
  • He was likely open to resigning in Boston but not for any kind of discount.
  • The Sox didn't want to pay at the top of the market for him and didn't want to lose him for nothing.
  • Mookie went to LA and was still intent on going to free agency. He gave every indication of such after the trade.
  • Covid hit. The pandemic wreaked havoc on the world economy. Nobody knew for sure what would come of the markets going foward.
  • The Dodgers, to their everlasting credit--they're a brilliantly run organization--offered a massive contract anyway, though almost certainly less than Mookie originally wanted.
  • Mookie took the huge payday, and has been earning it ever since.
I think Mookie feels genuine affection for the Boston fan base. He has always been loved here. I think he doesnt want to be seen as someone who turned his back on Boston. Bust as to what Mookie himself would say if confronted with his prior quotes.... I think once again the guys at Dodgers Way have it right. Here is the headline of their piece: "Who cares if Dodgers' Mookie Betts ever gets his story straight on Boston contract offer?"

This was all a long time ago. We love Mookie like few other players. He's thrived in LA and is earning the shit out of his contract. We've moved one and are building a foundation of good young players. We lost the trade. We're on the upswing now anyway. Who cares about this anymore?
 

Daniel_Son

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CJM

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An element that frustrates me is that the Red Sox have become something different. Fenway is absurdly expensive, ticket prices have been raised since the Mookie trade, parking has gone up, Henry and Co. are gobbling up real estate around the ballpark. You walk into Fenway and every step you take you are either being charged for something, or someone is trying to get you to spend money on something else. You walk through the gate and immediately someone is trying to take a photo of you to document your "Fenway Park experience" and all of that. Fenway has become Boston's biggest tourist trap with the sole purpose of trying to extract as much money from you as possible.

And I could live with all of that if the Red Sox were spending big. The unwillingness to spend big on the most talented home-grown player since Yaz, followed with raising ticket prices, a few disappointing seasons, the trading of Benintendi and not signing Bogaerts (in hindsight fair moves, but at the time it was another strike) and a collection of unrecognizable platoon players and openers was really hard for me as a fan. The second most expensive stadium experience in baseball and the 10th highest payroll? That's a tough ask.

This adds to the bitterness of the pill. I took my girlfriend to Fenway this summer, her first time there. She's not a Sox fan and not from the area, but she made a point of wanting to go during our trip. Afterwards, she said, "So Fenway is just Disney for New Englanders?" I think that's a fair, and not ungenerous, read of the current ballpark experience.

We've discussed the aspects of the Mooke situation ad nauseam--from the initial errors (Sale/Eovaldi) to the ways Bloom seems like he was forced to make some lemonade from a lemon situation to @Fishy1's nice explanation of how missing on Mookie might have a long tail in giving a suboptimal deal to a suboptimal player in Devers.

I think we also circle around a core disconnect in the two sides of the discussion. One side has the hard facts--the team's championship prospects at the time of the Mookie deal, the money situation, the state of the farm system post-Dombrowski--to argue that the decision was tough, maybe cold-blooded, but reasonable.

The other side argues more subjectively--you don't trade a guy like Mookie no matter what, it hurt my connection to the team as a fan, etc. The thing is, being a fan is subjective for the vast majority of people. Just because something is subjective, doesn't make it invalid. And we have heard from enough people over the years post-deal that the subjective element of losing Mookie tangibly damaged their relationship to the team. Like, on a Ringer movie podcast they were talking about a list of cool people under-35, actors or celebrities or politicians or whoever, and one of the hosts said, "What about Mookie?" These Los Angeles transplants all agreed he should be on the list and I got fucking sad all over again.

Just because it's difficult to quantify doesn't make it untrue. I can't measure how much more joy I'd feel about the Sox, or love I'd feel for the Sox, if they still had Mookie, but I have less of each now and I know it to be true for me and for many, many others. That objectively there's been additional objective evidence that it was a mistake--Mookie still producing at an MVP level, Devers getting potential Mookie money (Covid notwithstanding) for less-than-Mookie--makes the result even worse.

We gave good money to Pedroia and the end of the contract was a mess due to injury. If I could go back in time, I wouldn't change a thing about keeping Pedroia here for his whole career, regardless of how it ended. Pedroia being a lifelong Red Sox made me love the team more.
 

Fishy1

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Nov 10, 2006
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Pretty funny how many of us took for granted that he was telling the truth for the first few pages of this thread when this quote is already out there. Also telling how quick we were to jump on Henry and Bloom because it justified people's priors.

I mean, it's very possible he's forgotten - people do that too.

I say this as someone who understands why the deal was done but thinks signing Devers instead is baffling.
 

moondog80

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Sep 20, 2005
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"I want to stay here" in athlete-speak almost always means "I want this to be the place that offers me more money than any of the other 29 teams". And there's nothing wrong with that stance. It's just a pretty big asterisk to tack on to "I want to stay here".
 
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