One of those flannel ones that you wonder if they would get to weighing twice as much with sweat on August days?Even though Pedro is my favorite athlete of all time, regardless of sport, the only Red Sox jersey I own is #9.
One of those flannel ones that you wonder if they would get to weighing twice as much with sweat on August days?Even though Pedro is my favorite athlete of all time, regardless of sport, the only Red Sox jersey I own is #9.
Didn't both the A's and Angels each win 20 games in a row that year? Man I really wanted the Sox to get Troy Glaus after '02I guess I wasn't clear. Based on the 40-17 start, I figured they were a lock for upper 90s.
Of course, IIRC the WC winner won over 100, so the Sox probably weren't making the playoffs that year anyway.
Edit: the Angels won 99 games to win the WC.
Actually....yes.One of those flannel ones that you wonder if they would get to weighing twice as much with sweat on August days?
Hope Zito gets overcast skies for the rest of his lifeZito was phenomenal that year. 229.1 innings pitched as well. And of course, it was the W-L record that did it - 23-5. He was absolutely a CYA winning caliber pitcher that year.
Of course, Pedro was better. Fewer innings, but far, far better in everything else. Lowe was actually better too as you pointed out. But no shade should be thrown to Zito - he was absolutely terrific that season.
3.23 wasn’t that exceptionalYou want to know who had it rough that year? Curt Schilling.
23-7, 3.23 era, 0.97 whip, 316 k, 11.0 k/9
And didn't win the CYA.
Thanks to his teammate who did this: 24-5, 2.32 era, 1.03 whip, 334 k, 11.6 k/9.
It was good for a 140 ERA+. The offensive environment was still insane that year.3.23 wasn’t that exceptional
His “teammate” was at 195It was good for a 140 ERA+. The offensive environment was still insane that year.
Not saying he deserved it. Just saying that 140 ERA+ is still one helluva year. Just not as good as the other too.His “teammate” was at 195
Pedro was at 202
140 was closer to League average than it was to the NL winner or the rightful AL winner
Yeah, that was my point. Schilling was incredible that year. But Unit was even better. Tough year to put up the kind of season Schilling did, I guess.Not saying he deserved it. Just saying that 140 ERA+ is still one helluva year. Just not as good as the other too.
Incredibly, the Sox had 3 of the top 4 ERA+ in all of MLB that season (Pedro, Lowe, Wakefield)His “teammate” was at 195
Pedro was at 202
140 was closer to League average than it was to the NL winner or the rightful AL winner
Pedro memorably characterized the media's vote as giving the award to ""the white guitar player," which I always thought was a great off-handed burn. Pedro and Manny got their revenge in October 2003, much to the horror of Thom Brennaman.Hope Zito gets overcast skies for the rest of his life
stupid pitcher’s park too
Holy shit, I've never heard that. That's an amazing comment.Pedro memorably characterized the media's vote as giving the award to ""the white guitar player," which I always thought was a great off-handed burn. Pedro and Manny got their revenge in October 2003, much to the horror of Thom Brennaman.
Red Sox waived Jeremy GiambiThis had me looking up what happened to the 02 DBacks. They won 98 games and hosted the 97 win Cardinals. The 101 win Braves hosted the 95 win Giants. Interestingly, both WC teams made the WS.
Anyway, they got swept by the Cards. Game 1 they hit a couple homers off the Unit and ended up blowing it open, 12-2 final. Game 2 both Schilling and Chuck Finley pitched gems. After the DBacks tied it 1-1 in the bottom of the 8th, the Cards scratched a run across in the 9th and won 2-1. Then the Cards wrapped up the series at home and that was essentially that for the DBacks run, as Unit and Schilling both battled injuries in 2003 (18 and 24 starts, And then we know what happened the next offseason.
You get a feel for it here, but I definitely saw a separate interview in which Pedro referred to Zito without naming him as “the white guitar player.” I’ve been laughing about it for twenty years.Holy shit, I've never heard that. That's an amazing comment.
93 is kind of a lot of wins! But yeah, Wakefield should have been starting more games, instead of Frank Castillo.The 2002 team also had an exceptional year from Tim Wakefield. (162 ERA+ in 163.1 innings)
It's amazing that team couldn't win more than 93 games.
I remember many times rooting for him to strike out so he couldn't ground into a double play.Tony Clark that year….ugh
But he did hit the greatest ground rule double in Red Sox history!I remember many times rooting for him to strike out so he couldn't ground into a double play.
I remember many times rooting for him to strike out so he couldn't ground into a double play.
His greatest strike out too....But he did hit the greatest ground rule double in Red Sox history!
It was remarkable to me how much of a cliff Tony Clark fell off of. 856 OPS in 2001 to 556 OPS in 2002. That's quite the collapse and not, IIRC, from any particular injury.Tony Clark that year….ugh
So this whole discussion has sent me down a WAR rabbit hole. And in particular, the stark contrast between bWAR and fWAR. Best as I can tell, fWAR really favors fielding independent stats.His “teammate” was at 195
Pedro was at 202
140 was closer to League average than it was to the NL winner or the rightful AL winner
Bill James once theorized that very tall position players (Clark was 6' 7") often have sharp dropoffs due to the way their body ages and their skills not matching up.It was remarkable to me how much of a cliff Tony Clark fell off of. 856 OPS in 2001 to 556 OPS in 2002. That's quite the collapse and not, IIRC, from any particular injury.
There was a stretch where I felt like nearly every player the Red Sox brought in seemed to have an epic career collapse. I don't know if it's true or not, but I feel like we see these sort of unexplained collapses more often in baseball than the other major sports. Maybe it's just because there's a narrow gap between being a .300 average good player and a .250 average nobody.
Richie Sexson another guy at 6'7 who comes to mind. MVP candidate (barely, admittedly) in 2005, basically useless by 2007.Bill James once theorized that very tall position players (Clark was 6' 7") often have sharp dropoffs due to the way their body ages and their skills not matching up.
No idea of the veracity but I often think of Clark in this context.
Of course Clark did play till 2009 and had a great rebound season for Arizona in 2005 (154 OPS+). Which he then promptly followed up with a 60 OPS+ season in 2006. Strange career.
I wonder if we have a database of really tall players. IIRC, Richie Sexson also dropped off a cliff very fast in his early 30s. I think he was similar height to Clark in that 6'6-6'7 range.Bill James once theorized that very tall position players (Clark was 6' 7") often have sharp dropoffs due to the way their body ages and their skills not matching up.
No idea of the veracity but I often think of Clark in this context.
Of course Clark did play till 2009 and had a great rebound season for Arizona in 2005 (154 OPS+). Which he then promptly followed up with a 60 OPS+ season in 2006. Strange career.
Yup, Sexson dropped off HARD around 30-31 and was quickly out of the league. He was 6' 7".I wonder if we have a database of really tall players. IIRC, Richie Sexson also dropped off a cliff very fast in his early 30s. I think he was similar height to Clark in that 6'6-6'7 range.
edit: beaten by @Fishy1
I'm not a fan of using WAR for pitchers.So this whole discussion has sent me down a WAR rabbit hole. And in particular, the stark contrast between bWAR and fWAR. Best as I can tell, fWAR really favors fielding independent stats.
Fangraphs WAR for 2022:
1) Schilling - 9.3
2) Randy - 8.1
3) Pedro - 7.4
11) Lowe - 4.6
14) Zito - 4.5
Contrasted with B-Ref:
1) Randy - 10.7
2) Schilling - 8.6
Tied for 4) Lowe and Zito - 7.2
9!) Pedro - 6.5
I'm sure Aaron Judge will be an exceptionYup, Sexson dropped off HARD around 30-31 and was quickly out of the league. He was 6' 7".
I made the case that Judge was going to be an albatross contract based on the general trend for taller players, especially thick built ones. I figured that Judge had maybe one or two great years remaining in him but would have to play 1B or DH sooner or later to preserve him, thereby declining his overall production, but at least preserving likely another few .900 OPS 30HR seasons for another few years before his bat speed just plummets.Dave Winfield played forever and Frank Howard was productive until he hung it up at 35. Let's hope that Judge fellow is more like Clark and Sexson and the Yankees have to eat $300 million.
Not only that, but if you're tall, you like baseball, you seem to end up as a pitcher.I've always thought tall baseball players are a tough group to generalize because there must be massive selection bias -- if you're 6'7" or taller, and athletic enough to play MLB, you usually focus on basketball.
Wasn't part of Clark sucking in 2002 that he was a bigwig in the players association and spent a lot of time trying to prevent another lockout in 2002-2003?It was remarkable to me how much of a cliff Tony Clark fell off of. 856 OPS in 2001 to 556 OPS in 2002. That's quite the collapse and not, IIRC, from any particular injury.
There was a stretch where I felt like nearly every player the Red Sox brought in seemed to have an epic career collapse. I don't know if it's true or not, but I feel like we see these sort of unexplained collapses more often in baseball than the other major sports. Maybe it's just because there's a narrow gap between being a .300 average good player and a .250 average nobody.
But he did hit the greatest ground rule double in Red Sox history!
Leading Theo to say “I’m thinking ‘the guy basically ruined our 2002 season,’ now he’s going to ruin our 2004 season.”His greatest strike out too....
TWO ZambranosThe first time I saw Nomar play was when he was at AA Trenton. I remember everyone around me at the park hyping up Nomar and Ryan McGuire.
Lots of familiar names on this roster. (I didn't realize Greg Blosser stuck around MiLB until 2008)
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/team.cgi?id=f31f1d34
Generated one of the better SOSH nicknames though.Tony Clark that year….ugh
Adam Dunn (6'6") recovered a bit from his insane 2011 dropoff in his age-31 season with the CWS to hit 97 Hrs from 2012-2014 before retiring at 34. He probably could have hung around a few more years to get 500 hrs but decided to walk away.Yup, Sexson dropped off HARD around 30-31 and was quickly out of the league. He was 6' 7".
You sent me down a rabbit hole and I find his (Dave Kingman) final season fascinating.Adam Dunn (6'6") recovered a bit from his insane 2011 dropoff in his age-31 season with the CWS to hit 97 Hrs from 2012-2014 before retiring at 34. He probably could have hung around a few more years to get 500 hrs but decided to walk away.
Dave Kingman (6'6") was fairly consistent(for him) into his age 37 season, hitting 35hrs with Oakland. On a side note, Kingman seems like a guy that could have had a much different career if he spent most of his career in the AL as a DH instead of being a liability in the field in his various stops in the NL
Don't know if everyone knows Dunn was the backup QB to Major Applewhite at U. Texas before dropping out to focus on baseball. Mercy!Adam Dunn (6'6") recovered a bit from his insane 2011 dropoff in his age-31 season with the CWS to hit 97 Hrs from 2012-2014 before retiring at 34. He probably could have hung around a few more years to get 500 hrs but decided to walk away.
Dave Kingman (6'6") was fairly consistent(for him) into his age 37 season, hitting 35hrs with Oakland. On a side note, Kingman seems like a guy that could have had a much different career if he spent most of his career in the AL as a DH instead of being a liability in the field in his various stops in the NL
I want to give Nomar credit for one more after that; he starts the 9th inning rally off Mo Rivera (“Fruitbat”) in the famous July 24, 2004 “turning point” game (the Arod-Tek “we don’t throw at .260 hitters” brawl/Mueller walk off bomb for an 11-10 win).I remember game 6 being started by Andy Pettitte. But you are correct Nomar had a big triple (turned into a run via Matsui's throwing error) that sliced the MFY lead from 6-4 to 6-5.
Nomar also had a big hit in game 4 of ALDS off Foulke (double off the monster as tying run...he later scored with Manny on Ortiz's huge 2 out double).
Schwarber feels pretty close to a modern day Kingman.You sent me down a rabbit hole and I find his (Dave Kingman) final season fascinating.
35 HR and 94 RBI but a .686 OPS. That has to be the emptiest 35/100 type season I’ve ever seen.
Great summary.As that 93 win 2002 season has been brought up, thought it would be worth noting some of the oddities:
- The Sox missing the playoffs with 93 wins was unusual. In the years of the single team wild card (1995-2011), only 4 teams with 93 or more wins missed the playoffs.
- What was even more unusual is that another 93 win missed the playoffs in 2002, and that was the Seattle Mariners.
- Seattle would win 93 games again the following season, but miss the playoffs by 2 games to the wild card Red Sox. We know the rest of the story.
- FWIW, the team with the most wins to miss the wild card was the 1999 Cincinnati Reds, who won 96 games but finished a game behind the 97 win Astros for the division and the 97 win Mets for the wild card.
- In one of GM Dan Duquette's final moves, he traded former first round pick Rick Asadoorian and a couple of lower prospects for Cardinals pitcher Dustin Hermanson. It was hoped that Hermanson would provide a mid-rotation starter who could eat some innings and complement Pedro, Lowe, and Wakefield. Duquette would be fired a couple of months later.
- FWIW, Asadoorian would never see the field beyond AAA, nor would the other 2 prospects the Sox traded.
- Hermanson's first outing was cut short as he pitched an inning against the Royals before a long rain delay. For some reason, Grady Little decided it was a good idea to put him back on the mound when play resumed, and Hermanson hurt his leg in the process. The game would be called anyway, and Hermanson would not start another game until August 22nd. He ended up being used primarily in mop-up relief duty after that.
- Tim Wakefield was for some reason moved to the bullpen after all of 2 starts. He returned to the rotation on July 31st and pitched really well down the stretch.
- Malcontent Carl Everett was traded during the offseason for backend starter Darren Oliver. Oliver pitched really well in April, but then his early career control problems returned, and he was released in July.
- Oliver would eventually go on to become a solid setup reliever for the Mets in 2006, a role in which he thrived until he finally retired after the 2013 season at the age of 42.
- 2002 would be the final season for the El Guapo, aka Rich Garces.
- And, thankfully, Jose Offerman.
- In the forgot he was a Red Sox category, you had Freddy Sanchez (who would win NL batting title in 2006 for the Pirates) and Chris Haney (his final season).
- Ricky Henderson was given a new car.
- Red Sox were well represented at the All Star Game with 7 players. All Stars included Pedro, Lowe (who started for the AL), Manny, Nomar, Johnny Damon, Shea Hillebrand (AL starter at 3B!!!), and reliever Ugueth Urbina. All appeared except for Pedro, as the Sox were carefully managing his mid-season innings, and he pitched 3 days prior.
- It was the same All Star Game that was declared a 7-7 tie after both teams ran out of pitchers. Which, of course, led to the infamous "this time it counts" where the league winner would get home field for the World Series - ugh.
- Sox made a big move in acquiring Cliff Floyd, who posted a nifty 0.935 OPS during the stretch run.
- Unfortunately, it was not enough as the Sox somehow managed to underperform their Pythagorean by 7 games. Yes, the 2002 team would have been the first Red Sox team since 1946 to win 100 games had they had league average luck.
- Or, more accurately, league average managing.
FWIW Pedro’s comments to the Courant were pretty scalding. We forget a little now, and it was absolutely part of what made him arguably the greatest pitcher of all time, but the dude was also in the HOF of pettiness and vindictiveness when he wanted to be:Pedro memorably characterized the media's vote as giving the award to ""the white guitar player," which I always thought was a great off-handed burn. Pedro and Manny got their revenge in October 2003, much to the horror of Thom Brennaman.
"They should have had it on 'Outside the Lines' -- Why Pedro got robbed," he told the Courant.
Losing the AL Cy Young Award last season to Oakland's Barry Zito also still stings.
"Last year, the first one standing up against me because he wanted a new face in baseball was [ESPN's] Peter Gammons," Martinez told the Courant. "[He was] standing up and saying, 'No, I'm going with Zito because we need a new face in baseball. We're tired of seeing the same Pedro on the team, the same face as Pedro all the time. We need a fresh face, a guy that plays guitar, is cute, a white Caucasian. We don't want the Latin [expletive] to be in front of the TV all the time.'
"They campaigned against me for the Cy Young. It's the same [expletive] they're doing with Sammy."
Floyd's Red Sox stop was fascinating. .935 OPS with 7 HRs and 21 doubles in in 190 plate appearances, yet had only 18 RBIs in that time because no one and I mean no one was on base in front of him. One of the oddest batting lines I can remember.- Sox made a big move in acquiring Cliff Floyd, who posted a nifty 0.935 OPS during the stretch run.
I remember exactly where I was when I learned about the trade and I was super excited.Floyd's Red Sox stop was fascinating. .935 OPS with 7 HRs and 21 doubles in in 190 plate appearances, yet had only 18 RBIs in that time because no one and I mean no one was on base in front of him. One of the oddest batting lines I can remember.