One of those flannel ones that you wonder if they would get to weighing twice as much with sweat on August days?
Just how good was Nomar Garciaparra?
- Thread starter BaseballJones
- Start date
Didn't both the A's and Angels each win 20 games in a row that year? Man I really wanted the Sox to get Troy Glaus after '02
Hope Zito gets overcast skies for the rest of his life
stupid pitcher’s park too
It was good for a 140 ERA+. The offensive environment was still insane that year.
His “teammate” was at 195
Pedro was at 202
140 was closer to League average than it was to the NL winner or the rightful AL winner
Not saying he deserved it. Just saying that 140 ERA+ is still one helluva year. Just not as good as the other too.
Yeah, that was my point. Schilling was incredible that year. But Unit was even better. Tough year to put up the kind of season Schilling did, I guess.
This had me looking up what happened to the 02 DBacks. They won 98 games and hosted the 97 win Cardinals. The 101 win Braves hosted the 95 win Giants. Interestingly, both WC teams made the WS.
Anyway, they got swept by the Cards. Game 1 they hit a couple homers off the Unit and ended up blowing it open, 12-2 final. Game 2 both Schilling and Chuck Finley pitched gems. After the DBacks tied it 1-1 in the bottom of the 8th, the Cards scratched a run across in the 9th and won 2-1. Then the Cards wrapped up the series at home and that was essentially that for the DBacks run, as Unit and Schilling both battled injuries in 2003 (18 and 24 starts, respectively) and the DBacks slogged to an 84-78, 3rd place finish. And then we know what happened the next offseason.
Anyway, they got swept by the Cards. Game 1 they hit a couple homers off the Unit and ended up blowing it open, 12-2 final. Game 2 both Schilling and Chuck Finley pitched gems. After the DBacks tied it 1-1 in the bottom of the 8th, the Cards scratched a run across in the 9th and won 2-1. Then the Cards wrapped up the series at home and that was essentially that for the DBacks run, as Unit and Schilling both battled injuries in 2003 (18 and 24 starts, respectively) and the DBacks slogged to an 84-78, 3rd place finish. And then we know what happened the next offseason.
Incredibly, the Sox had 3 of the top 4 ERA+ in all of MLB that season (Pedro, Lowe, Wakefield)
Pedro memorably characterized the media's vote as giving the award to ""the white guitar player," which I always thought was a great off-handed burn. Pedro and Manny got their revenge in October 2003, much to the horror of Thom Brennaman.
Red Sox waived Jeremy Giambi
Was there more? That’s all that I remember
Did they recover?
You get a feel for it here, but I definitely saw a separate interview in which Pedro referred to Zito without naming him as “the white guitar player.” I’ve been laughing about it for twenty years.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/news/2003/0606/1564134.html
93 is kind of a lot of wins! But yeah, Wakefield should have been starting more games, instead of Frank Castillo.
Tony Clark that year….ugh
I remember many times rooting for him to strike out so he couldn't ground into a double play.
It was remarkable to me how much of a cliff Tony Clark fell off of. 856 OPS in 2001 to 556 OPS in 2002. That's quite the collapse and not, IIRC, from any particular injury.
There was a stretch where I felt like nearly every player the Red Sox brought in seemed to have an epic career collapse. I don't know if it's true or not, but I feel like we see these sort of unexplained collapses more often in baseball than the other major sports. Maybe it's just because there's a narrow gap between being a .300 average good player and a .250 average nobody.
So this whole discussion has sent me down a WAR rabbit hole. And in particular, the stark contrast between bWAR and fWAR. Best as I can tell, fWAR really favors fielding independent stats.
Fangraphs WAR for 2022:
1) Schilling - 9.3
2) Randy - 8.1
3) Pedro - 7.4
11) Lowe - 4.6
14) Zito - 4.5
Contrasted with B-Ref:
1) Randy - 10.7
2) Schilling - 8.6
Tied for 4) Lowe and Zito - 7.2
9!) Pedro - 6.5
Bill James once theorized that very tall position players (Clark was 6' 7") often have sharp dropoffs due to the way their body ages and their skills not matching up.
No idea of the veracity but I often think of Clark in this context.
Of course Clark did play till 2009 and had a great rebound season for Arizona in 2005 (154 OPS+). Which he then promptly followed up with a 60 OPS+ season in 2006. Strange career.
Richie Sexson another guy at 6'7 who comes to mind. MVP candidate (barely, admittedly) in 2005, basically useless by 2007.
I wonder if we have a database of really tall players. IIRC, Richie Sexson also dropped off a cliff very fast in his early 30s. I think he was similar height to Clark in that 6'6-6'7 range.
edit: beaten by @Fishy1
Yup, Sexson dropped off HARD around 30-31 and was quickly out of the league. He was 6' 7".
Dave Winfield played forever and Frank Howard was productive until he hung it up at 35. Let's hope that Judge fellow is more like Clark and Sexson and the Yankees have to eat $300 million.
The first time I saw Nomar play was when he was at AA Trenton. I remember everyone around me at the park hyping up Nomar and Ryan McGuire.
Lots of familiar names on this roster. (I didn't realize Greg Blosser stuck around MiLB until 2008)
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/team.cgi?id=f31f1d34
Lots of familiar names on this roster. (I didn't realize Greg Blosser stuck around MiLB until 2008)
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/team.cgi?id=f31f1d34
I made the case that Judge was going to be an albatross contract based on the general trend for taller players, especially thick built ones. I figured that Judge had maybe one or two great years remaining in him but would have to play 1B or DH sooner or later to preserve him, thereby declining his overall production, but at least preserving likely another few .900 OPS 30HR seasons for another few years before his bat speed just plummets.
As a Sox fan I'd love it, but I like Judge (especially the rumor that he sang NY NY after Game 3 in '18 before the Sox clobbered those schmucks) and think he's good for the game and a lot of fun to watch. I don't hate him as much as 99% of almost all other NYY's
Not only that, but if you're tall, you like baseball, you seem to end up as a pitcher.
EDIT: Just looked and 23 of the the 25 tallest players in MLB today are pitchers.
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Wasn't part of Clark sucking in 2002 that he was a bigwig in the players association and spent a lot of time trying to prevent another lockout in 2002-2003?
Leading Theo to say “I’m thinking ‘the guy basically ruined our 2002 season,’ now he’s going to ruin our 2004 season.”
Adam Dunn (6'6") recovered a bit from his insane 2011 dropoff in his age-31 season with the CWS to hit 97 Hrs from 2012-2014 before retiring at 34. He probably could have hung around a few more years to get 500 hrs but decided to walk away.
Dave Kingman (6'6") was fairly consistent(for him) into his age 37 season, hitting 35hrs with Oakland. On a side note, Kingman seems like a guy that could have had a much different career if he spent most of his career in the AL as a DH instead of being a liability in the field in his various stops in the NL
You sent me down a rabbit hole and I find his (Dave Kingman) final season fascinating.
35 HR and 94 RBI but a .686 OPS. That has to be the emptiest 35/100 type season I’ve ever seen.
Don't know if everyone knows Dunn was the backup QB to Major Applewhite at U. Texas before dropping out to focus on baseball. Mercy!
I want to give Nomar credit for one more after that; he starts the 9th inning rally off Mo Rivera (“Fruitbat”) in the famous July 24, 2004 “turning point” game (the Arod-Tek “we don’t throw at .260 hitters” brawl/Mueller walk off bomb for an 11-10 win).
It is a big hit in a key win just a week before he is traded; on an 0-2 count he rifles an inside cutter into the LF gap for a 2B. It is also the first of 3 balls barreled up against Mo that inning (Nixon‘s warning track flyball he thought was gone follows, and Mueller’s HR at the end) which is a thing that happened maybe once in Mo’s career.
As that 93 win 2002 season has been brought up, thought it would be worth noting some of the oddities:
- The Sox missing the playoffs with 93 wins was unusual. In the years of the single team wild card (1995-2011), only 4 teams with 93 or more wins missed the playoffs.
- What was even more unusual is that another 93 win missed the playoffs in 2002, and that was the Seattle Mariners.
- Seattle would win 93 games again the following season, but miss the playoffs by 2 games to the wild card Red Sox. We know the rest of the story.
- FWIW, the team with the most wins to miss the wild card was the 1999 Cincinnati Reds, who won 96 games but finished a game behind the 97 win Astros for the division and the 97 win Mets for the wild card.
- In one of GM Dan Duquette's final moves, he traded former first round pick Rick Asadoorian and a couple of lower prospects for Cardinals pitcher Dustin Hermanson. It was hoped that Hermanson would provide a mid-rotation starter who could eat some innings and complement Pedro, Lowe, and Wakefield. Duquette would be fired a couple of months later.
- FWIW, Asadoorian would never see the field beyond AAA, nor would the other 2 prospects the Sox traded.
- Hermanson's first outing was cut short as he pitched an inning against the Royals before a long rain delay. For some reason, Grady Little decided it was a good idea to put him back on the mound when play resumed, and Hermanson hurt his leg in the process. The game would be called anyway, and Hermanson would not start another game until August 22nd. He ended up being used primarily in mop-up relief duty after that.
- Tim Wakefield was for some reason moved to the bullpen after all of 2 starts. He returned to the rotation on July 31st and pitched really well down the stretch.
- Malcontent Carl Everett was traded during the offseason for backend starter Darren Oliver. Oliver pitched really well in April, but then his early career control problems returned, and he was released in July.
- Oliver would eventually go on to become a solid setup reliever for the Mets in 2006, a role in which he thrived until he finally retired after the 2013 season at the age of 42.
- 2002 would be the final season for the El Guapo, aka Rich Garces.
- And, thankfully, Jose Offerman.
- In the forgot he was a Red Sox category, you had Freddy Sanchez (who would win NL batting title in 2006 for the Pirates) and Chris Haney (his final season).
- Ricky Henderson was given a new car.
- Red Sox were well represented at the All Star Game with 7 players. All Stars included Pedro, Lowe (who started for the AL), Manny, Nomar, Johnny Damon, Shea Hillebrand (AL starter at 3B!!!), and reliever Ugueth Urbina. All appeared except for Pedro, as the Sox were carefully managing his mid-season innings, and he pitched 3 days prior.
- It was the same All Star Game that was declared a 7-7 tie after both teams ran out of pitchers. Which, of course, led to the infamous "this time it counts" where the league winner would get home field for the World Series - ugh.
- Sox made a big move in acquiring Cliff Floyd, who posted a nifty 0.935 OPS during the stretch run.
- Unfortunately, it was not enough as the Sox somehow managed to underperform their Pythagorean by 7 games. Yes, the 2002 team would have been the first Red Sox team since 1946 to win 100 games had they had league average luck.
- Or, more accurately, league average managing.
- The Sox missing the playoffs with 93 wins was unusual. In the years of the single team wild card (1995-2011), only 4 teams with 93 or more wins missed the playoffs.
- What was even more unusual is that another 93 win missed the playoffs in 2002, and that was the Seattle Mariners.
- Seattle would win 93 games again the following season, but miss the playoffs by 2 games to the wild card Red Sox. We know the rest of the story.
- FWIW, the team with the most wins to miss the wild card was the 1999 Cincinnati Reds, who won 96 games but finished a game behind the 97 win Astros for the division and the 97 win Mets for the wild card.
- In one of GM Dan Duquette's final moves, he traded former first round pick Rick Asadoorian and a couple of lower prospects for Cardinals pitcher Dustin Hermanson. It was hoped that Hermanson would provide a mid-rotation starter who could eat some innings and complement Pedro, Lowe, and Wakefield. Duquette would be fired a couple of months later.
- FWIW, Asadoorian would never see the field beyond AAA, nor would the other 2 prospects the Sox traded.
- Hermanson's first outing was cut short as he pitched an inning against the Royals before a long rain delay. For some reason, Grady Little decided it was a good idea to put him back on the mound when play resumed, and Hermanson hurt his leg in the process. The game would be called anyway, and Hermanson would not start another game until August 22nd. He ended up being used primarily in mop-up relief duty after that.
- Tim Wakefield was for some reason moved to the bullpen after all of 2 starts. He returned to the rotation on July 31st and pitched really well down the stretch.
- Malcontent Carl Everett was traded during the offseason for backend starter Darren Oliver. Oliver pitched really well in April, but then his early career control problems returned, and he was released in July.
- Oliver would eventually go on to become a solid setup reliever for the Mets in 2006, a role in which he thrived until he finally retired after the 2013 season at the age of 42.
- 2002 would be the final season for the El Guapo, aka Rich Garces.
- And, thankfully, Jose Offerman.
- In the forgot he was a Red Sox category, you had Freddy Sanchez (who would win NL batting title in 2006 for the Pirates) and Chris Haney (his final season).
- Ricky Henderson was given a new car.
- Red Sox were well represented at the All Star Game with 7 players. All Stars included Pedro, Lowe (who started for the AL), Manny, Nomar, Johnny Damon, Shea Hillebrand (AL starter at 3B!!!), and reliever Ugueth Urbina. All appeared except for Pedro, as the Sox were carefully managing his mid-season innings, and he pitched 3 days prior.
- It was the same All Star Game that was declared a 7-7 tie after both teams ran out of pitchers. Which, of course, led to the infamous "this time it counts" where the league winner would get home field for the World Series - ugh.
- Sox made a big move in acquiring Cliff Floyd, who posted a nifty 0.935 OPS during the stretch run.
- Unfortunately, it was not enough as the Sox somehow managed to underperform their Pythagorean by 7 games. Yes, the 2002 team would have been the first Red Sox team since 1946 to win 100 games had they had league average luck.
- Or, more accurately, league average managing.
Great summary.
My main memory of 2002 was Manny flying out against the A’s to effectively end the Sox season. What I remember about that AB was that they desperately needed that game to make the playoffs and it felt like they just had no chance despite having two 20 game winners that year. Then, in about a two or three second span I went from feeling completely hopeless to thinking, “Holy shit, we are going to the playoffs!” to the season being over as Terrence Long reeled in the fly ball in front of the bullpen to end the game. It was just a massive gut punch.
I believe 2002 was also when Urbina struck out a guy in a meaningless situation right before Ripken would’ve gotten his last AB at Camden and celebrat like he’d just won the WS.
FWIW Pedro’s comments to the Courant were pretty scalding. We forget a little now, and it was absolutely part of what made him arguably the greatest pitcher of all time, but the dude was also in the HOF of pettiness and vindictiveness when he wanted to be:
The 1999 Reds lost a one-game playoff against the Mets IIRC as they ended their normal schedule in a tie.
I recall that vividly because I think the Reds in their final game had a long rain delay and they had to win to force the playoff and they finally resumed the game really late at night. I was watching it on ESPN. The Reds won the game easily but then lost at home in the game against the Mets.
I recall that vividly because I think the Reds in their final game had a long rain delay and they had to win to force the playoff and they finally resumed the game really late at night. I was watching it on ESPN. The Reds won the game easily but then lost at home in the game against the Mets.
Floyd's Red Sox stop was fascinating. .935 OPS with 7 HRs and 21 doubles in in 190 plate appearances, yet had only 18 RBIs in that time because no one and I mean no one was on base in front of him. One of the oddest batting lines I can remember.
I remember exactly where I was when I learned about the trade and I was super excited.