Just how good was Nomar Garciaparra?

[BaseballJones]

Just how good was Nomar Garciaparra?

- Career stats: 5,586 AB, 927 r, 370 2b, 52 3b, 229 hr, 936 rbi, .313/.361/.521/.882, 124 ops+, 44.3 bWAR
- 6x All-star
- ROY
- 2x batting title
- 7x top 13 in MVP voting

His three-year peak from 1998-2000:
- 1,665 AB, 318 r, 130 2b, 15 3b, 83 hr, 322 rbi, .350/.404/.595/.999, 149 ops+, 991 TB, 21.1 bWAR
- AVG season from 1998-2000: 106 r, 194 h, 43 2b, 5 3b, 28 hr, 107 rbi, .350/.404/.595/.999, 149 ops+, 330 TB, 7.0 bWAR

Lots of injuries later in his career that really brought down his career numbers and ended his season sooner than it should have. His 1999-2000 seasons were absolutely ridiculous offensively. Early in his career his defense was excellent, but he was inconsistent over the life of his career (by the defensive metrics, anyway).

His career stats were not enough for him to be in the HOF (not even the veteran's committee is likely to vote him in), but at his best, there were few players in the game who were better in his era.

I loved watching him play. I was a huge, huge Nomar fan, but the end of his time in Boston really was a downer, though it helped lead to their first WS title in 86 years. I just wish they had won it WITH Nomar on the squad.

 

[jmcc5400]

Just how good was Nomar Garciaparra?

- Career stats: 5,586 AB, 927 r, 370 2b, 52 3b, 229 hr, 936 rbi, .313/.361/.521/.882, 124 ops+, 44.3 bWAR
- 6x All-star
- ROY
- 2x batting title
- 7x top 13 in MVP voting

His three-year peak from 1998-2000:
- 1,665 AB, 318 r, 130 2b, 15 3b, 83 hr, 322 rbi, .350/.404/.595/.999, 149 ops+, 991 TB, 21.1 bWAR
- AVG season from 1998-2000: 106 r, 194 h, 43 2b, 5 3b, 28 hr, 107 rbi, .350/.404/.595/.999, 149 ops+, 330 TB, 7.0 bWAR

Lots of injuries later in his career that really brought down his career numbers and ended his season sooner than it should have. His 1999-2000 seasons were absolutely ridiculous offensively. Early in his career his defense was excellent, but he was inconsistent over the life of his career (by the defensive metrics, anyway).

His career stats were not enough for him to be in the HOF (not even the veteran's committee is likely to vote him in), but at his best, there were few players in the game who were better in his era.

I loved watching him play. I was a huge, huge Nomar fan, but the end of his time in Boston really was a downer, though it helped lead to their first WS title in 86 years. I just wish they had won it WITH Nomar on the squad.

The 1998-2000 version of Nomar - i.e., before Al Reyes - was the most dynamic positional player I had ever seen with the Red Sox at the time (started watching in 1975). Since then, I'd put 2016-2019 Mookie over him, but no one else. He was also a machine in the '98 and '99 postseasons.

 

[scottyno]

If you could have polled mlb people after the 2003 season I think the vast majority would have said he would be a HOFer. Unfortunately he only had 1 more good season after that. Obviously he's not a HOFer, but his WAR 7 would actually be average for every SS in the HOF and better than Jeter's

 

[Rovin Romine]

The 1998-2000 version of Nomar - i.e., before Al Reyes - was the most dynamic positional player I had ever seen with the Red Sox at the time (started watching in 1975). Since then, I'd put 2016-2019 Mookie over him, but no one else. He was also a machine in the '98 and '99 postseasons.

Interestingly, Reyes hit Nomar in late Sept. of 1999. He went on to have a monster 2000 while dealing with discomfort and pain, then went under the knife in 2001.

 

[jmcc5400]

Interestingly, Reyes hit Nomar in late Sept. of 1999. He went on to have a monster 2000 while dealing with discomfort and pain, then went under the knife in 2001.

I had completely forgotten that. I had it in my head that he was injured in the 2001 spring training.

 

[Ale Xander]

Just how GREAT was Nomar

Plus he married well

 

[kartvelo]

ARod, circa 2000: “I’m the youngest, Derek’s the richest, and Nomar’s the best.”

 

[Sausage in Section 17]

I had completely forgotten that. I had it in my head that he was injured in the 2001 spring training.

No, he was injured in the run up to the postseason, at a time when the Sox postseason hopes were as high as they'd been in years. I remember my old, traumatized Sox brain going..."of course..."

 

[TFisNEXT]

Interestingly, Reyes hit Nomar in late Sept. of 1999. He went on to have a monster 2000 while dealing with discomfort and pain, then went under the knife in 2001.

Yeah you wonder how Nomar might have looked if he never got the surgery…but it sounded like he couldn’t avoid it.

He played really well in 2002 and 2003 but never quite back to his pre-2001 days.

You also wonder if there’s a parallel universe where Nomar doesn’t get the Achilles injury in spring 2004 and he goes on to stay with the Red Sox….but I don’t think any of us would roll the dice there considering what happened, lol.

 

[ookami7m]

ARod, circa 2000: “I’m the youngest, Derek’s the richest, and Nomar’s the best.”

The debates around these 3 (and then shortly after Tejada) were sports message board fuel forever. Nomar was the next "THE GUY" on the sox for me after it had been Boggs -> Mo -> Nomar in my fandom and I loved watching him play. I'll agree with the above post that he was the most dynamic and fun to watch positional player the Sox had ever had since I'd been watching them. The way it ended really tarnishes how important he was to the Sox in the pre-Henry years. It was often Nomar+Pedro and a bunch of other guys who can't carry their level of talent.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

It's hard to remember now--because of what has happened since---how seismic an event it was to trade Nomar, the face of the franchise, at the 2004 deadline. You want to talk about gutsy, emotionless decisions? Belichick has made none any tougher than that one.....and Theo and company were proven right in the end.

We had a sense (thanks to the 2003 offseasaon) it was possible, but to do it midyear like that is just incredible. As I recall, the deal happend really late----reported publicly well after the 4pm deadline because of the complexity of getting all the deal pieces finalized---and it was shocking in the game thread, both that it happened, so late and the assets acquired (which seemed to small for "NOMAR")

 

[Reardon's Beard]

So good. Sometimes one never realizes how good until it's gone.

Ted Williams used to rave that he reminded him of DiMaggio.

 

[Marciano490]

Nomar was great. He and Cam Neely are my two Boston sports “what ifs” (well, also if Hagler fought Leonard earlier or again).

Hated the way he left town. Sulking during that Jeter stupid dive game then getting traded before the Sox finally won. I know he got a ring, but wish he’d been out there to celebrate (assuming they win it all with him).

 

[chrisfont9]

His three seasons following the incident, leaving out 2001 when he had the surgery, he racked up 7.4, 6.8 and 6.1 bWAR, including oWAR of 5.3 -- 6.6. Even after the trade he was above average most of the time.

 

[Sin Duda]

My family and I got to meet Nomar and his new fiance Mia in Austin, Christmas 2003. The Boston press, which I read online, were merciless with him, especially Shank. I expected to meet a surly, unresponsive superstar. Instead I met a warm, generous, talkative, funny individual who my 5-year-old just adored. Nomar spoke with my son for at least 5 minutes and took pictures with all of us (Mia was quiet as a church mouse). My son told Nomar how he (my son) wore #5 and played SS, and how he always chose Nomar in his Backyard Baseball game.

It broke my heart to see my son's reaction when I told him that following summer that Nomar had been traded. He literally threw himself onto the ground from his bed. And since he was too young to stay up for all those playoff games, he didn't even get the thrill the World Series brought all of us adults experienced.

 

[tims4wins]

From 98-00, Nomar's at bats were like Pedro starts: they were must watch. When he was locked in, he was just an incredibly difficult out. And he hit everything on an absolute line. He was and forever will be my favorite ever position player on the Sox.

 

[snowmanny]

As of 2001 or so it was between Orr and Nomar as the most popular Boston athlete of my lifetime. Not Yaz, not Pedro, not Havlicek, not Bledsoe, not even Russell (though he was mostly before my time). That time when he came back mid-season in 2001 and won the game was something else.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

As of 2001 or so it was between Orr and Nomar as the most popular Boston athlete of my lifetime. Not Yaz, not Pedro, not Havlicek, not Bledsoe, not even Russell (though he was mostly before my time). That time when he came back mid-season in 2001 and won the game was something else.

Larry Bird was far more popular than Nomar and close to Orr in the timeframe of the people you mention, but there's a case for Nomar as number three. Though not for long, as David Ortiz passed all the rest of your list save possibly Orr not too long thereafter, as well as some guy drafted in the sixth round by the Patriots....

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

(Maybe-not-so-hot-take)

Manny was so much better and it wasn't even close.

 

[snowmanny]

Larry Bird was far more popular than Nomar and close to Orr in the timeframe of the people you mention, but there's a case for Nomar as number three. Though not for long, as David Ortiz passed all the rest of your list save possibly Orr not too long thereafter, as well as some guy drafted in the sixth round by the Patriots....

Oh you’re right. My bad. My very bad.

But Nomar>Yaz is absolutely true.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

(Maybe-not-so-hot-take)

Manny was so much better and it wasn't even close.

I love Manny, and he was better for longer, but I don't think this is true if you include glovework.

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

Larry Bird was far more popular than Nomar and close to Orr in the timeframe of the people you mention, but there's a case for Nomar as number three. Though not for long, as David Ortiz passed all the rest of your list save possibly Orr not too long thereafter, as well as some guy drafted in the sixth round by the Patriots....

Um, Ray Bourque says hello?

 

[snowmanny]

…

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Oh you’re right. My bad.

Your point still fair--Nomar was incredibly popular for a stretch from 1997-2003.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Wicked good

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

I love Manny, and he was better for longer, but I don't think this is true if you include glovework.

Peak seasons, Manny over Nomar, even the position/D everyday

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Um, Ray Bourque says hello?

Yeah, fair, though I think you can make the case he wasn't as popular as Nomar was in late 1990s.....in part becuase Red Sox are bigger than Bruins. Bourque had SUCH a long career here maybe the aggregate gets him more? He certainly is behind Orr and Bird (and later Ortiz and Brady)

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

Yeah, fair, though I think you can make the case he wasn't as popular as Nomar was in late 1990s.....in part becuase Red Sox are bigger than Bruins. Bourque had SUCH a long career here maybe the aggregate gets him more? He certainly is behind Orr and Bird (and later Ortiz and Brady)

The city of Boston literally threw him a parade in 2001 when he won a Stanley Cup for another team. And thousands showed up.

 

[Max Power]

Nomar the hitter was Devers with another 75 points of batting average. Every ball off his bat was a laser.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Pre-injury Nomar was better than Jeter and it wasn’t particularly close. He was the most dynamic impressive player I had seen since Burks had come up, only better. And Burks was damn good.

I miss that Nomar.

Troy O’Leary hit the 2 HRS and had the 7 RBIS in Game 5 because the Indians were terrified of Nomar and kept walking him. And then in the 9th they finally pitched to him and he hit one a thousand miles an hour one inch from the top of the LFwall to drive in a run.

 

[Buck Showalter]

Not since Joe DiMaggio was there a righthanded hitter that won back-to-back batting titles in the AL.

That's how good.

 

[chrisfont9]

Peak seasons, Manny over Nomar, even the position/D everyday

oWAR disagrees, Nomar's peak was 7.3, Manny 7.1 same year (for Cleveland). Manny separates from Nomar if you go with OPS+, or basically what he did with the bat. Once you add in baserunning as part of the total offense package, Nomar is Manny's equal, at their respective peaks. Interestingly Nomar doesn't get a huge lift on WAR from his defense.

 

[Max Power]

oWAR disagrees, Nomar's peak was 7.3, Manny 7.1 same year (for Cleveland). Manny separates from Nomar if you go with OPS+, or basically what he did with the bat. Once you add in baserunning as part of the total offense package, Nomar is Manny's equal, at their respective peaks. Interestingly Nomar doesn't get a huge lift on WAR from his defense.

It was only marginally easier to catch Nomar's throws than his batted balls.

 

[ngruz25]

His three seasons following the incident, leaving out 2001 when he had the surgery, he racked up 7.4, 6.8 and 6.1 bWAR, including oWAR of 5.3 -- 6.6. Even after the trade he was above average most of the time.

My hot take is that the Nomar trade really didn’t make that much of a difference to the 2004 team’s success. Cabrera was obviously a defensive upgrade, but Nomar was still a perfectly serviceable defensive SS and a much better hitter. Modern defensive stats aren’t terribly glowing about Mientkiewicz’s defense, though I recall we were all ecstatic about how first base wizardry (maybe moreso because of how he compared to Millar than anything).

It’s not that I think the trade was a net negative, just that I think there’s an alternate universe in which Nomar stays and the Sox still win the WS.

 

[Rovin Romine]

Pre-injury Nomar was better than Jeter and it wasn’t particularly close.

Nomar was an amazing player period, but I suspect the BOS-NYY rivalry drove his popularity higher; the shortstops were banner-bearers for their teams in a way.

 

[chrisfont9]

Pre-injury Nomar was better than Jeter and it wasn’t particularly close. He was the most dynamic impressive player I had seen since Burks had come up, only better. And Burks was damn good.

I miss that Nomar.

Troy O’Leary hit the 2 HRS and had the 7 RBIS in Game 5 because the Indians were terrified of Nomar and kept walking him. And then in the 9th they finally pitched to him and he hit one a thousand miles an hour one inch from the top of the LFwall to drive in a run.

I just found highlights from that series. We don't talk enough about how apparently John Valentin couldn't reach first base on his throws from third.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Nomar was my favorite player from when he first won the shortstop job in Boston. His BWARs from 1997 to 2000 were 6.6, 7.1, 6.6 and 7.4. Then tragedy struck and this thread is making me depressed.

 

[santadevil]

My hot take is that the Nomar trade really didn’t make that much of a difference to the 2004 team’s success. Cabrera was obviously a defensive upgrade, but Nomar was still a perfectly serviceable defensive SS and a much better hitter. Modern defensive stats aren’t terribly glowing about Mientkiewicz’s defense, though I recall we were all ecstatic about how first base wizardry (maybe moreso because of how he compared to Millar than anything).

It’s not that I think the trade was a net negative, just that I think there’s an alternate universe in which Nomar stays and the Sox still win the WS.

I think OCab brought the chemistry though. Personalized handshakes for all the guys
We may not think that stuff matters, but playing and coaching a lot of ball over the years, that stuff really keeps the team in the moment, celebrating and building momentum

Nomar was still one of my favourite players to watch hit though. Guy was a tough out

 

[TFisNEXT]

Pre-injury Nomar was better than Jeter and it wasn’t particularly close. He was the most dynamic impressive player I had seen since Burks had come up, only better. And Burks was damn good.

I miss that Nomar.

Troy O’Leary hit the 2 HRS and had the 7 RBIS in Game 5 because the Indians were terrified of Nomar and kept walking him. And then in the 9th they finally pitched to him and he hit one a thousand miles an hour one inch from the top of the LFwall to drive in a run.

Nomar started the scoring in the 1st inning of that game with a 2 run HR to CF. Then they started walking him (before the 9th inning double that was almost his 2nd HR of the game)

When 1999-2000 Nomar was locked in, he was impossible to pitch to. He could hit balls on the screws that were out of the strike zone too when he was on.

 

[Rovin Romine]

I just found highlights from that series. We don't talk enough about how apparently John Valentin couldn't reach first base on his throws from third.

Edjumacate us?

 

[chrisfont9]

My hot take is that the Nomar trade really didn’t make that much of a difference to the 2004 team’s success. Cabrera was obviously a defensive upgrade, but Nomar was still a perfectly serviceable defensive SS and a much better hitter. Modern defensive stats aren’t terribly glowing about Mientkiewicz’s defense, though I recall we were all ecstatic about how first base wizardry (maybe moreso because of how he compared to Millar than anything).

It’s not that I think the trade was a net negative, just that I think there’s an alternate universe in which Nomar stays and the Sox still win the WS.

Huh, you are right, statistically the two shortstops were basically even after the trade. The vibes might have mattered though? Nomar was in his walk year and it's not crazy to think that his stress was holding them back? Who knows. But they were 10 games over on the day of the trade and +24 games in the last two months. Which is insane. They lost a total of 21 games from July 31 to the end of October.

 

[chrisfont9]

Edjumacate us?

View: https://youtu.be/bB-OARczPfM


Multiple times he bounced throws on easy plays (both grounders by Manny) that were followed by devastating hits. Thankfully he made up for it with his own offensive barrage.

 

[ngruz25]

I think OCab brought the chemistry though. Personalized handshakes for all the guys
We may not think that stuff matters, but playing and coaching a lot of ball over the years, that stuff really keeps the team in the moment, celebrating and building momentum

Nomar was still one of my favourite players to watch hit though. Guy was a tough out

I was thinking about the chemistry angle, but wasn’t O-Cab not brought back because of, uh, clubhouse issues? Maybe that’s just early 2000’s internet rumor mill chum. Whatever the case, he definitely fit the general vibe of the team better than Nomar.

 

[santadevil]

View: https://youtu.be/bB-OARczPfM

Multiple times he bounced throws on easy plays (both grounders by Manny) that were followed by devastating hits. Thankfully he made up for it with his own offensive barrage.

I miss the old open dugouts
Safety and all, but still seemed more enjoyable, players could jump on the field during big hits and celebrate easier

 

[santadevil]

I was thinking about the chemistry angle, but wasn’t O-Cab not brought back because of, uh, clubhouse issues? Maybe that’s just early 2000’s internet rumor mill chum. Whatever the case, he definitely fit the general vibe of the team better than Nomar.

I don't recall hearing that, but you could be correct
I thought it was due to the bat being so light and the ability to sign Renteria, which I wasn't a fan of

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I think OCab brought the chemistry though. Personalized handshakes for all the guys
We may not think that stuff matters, but playing and coaching a lot of ball over the years, that stuff really keeps the team in the moment, celebrating and building momentum

Nomar was still one of my favourite players to watch hit though. Guy was a tough out

What OCab brought was reliability. The biggest catalyst for the trade, IIRC, was there were doubts on whether Nomar would be able to play everyday for the remainder of the season. As it turned out he missed a three game stretch in August and then a twelve of thirteen stretch in September. Probably survivable for a team on a roll like the Sox were at that point, but then the question is whether they would have been on that roll if he were there.

 

[Devizier]

The 1998-2000 version of Nomar - i.e., before Al Reyes

That HBP sucked, but Nomar was still great until that mystery injury destroyed him in 2004.

 

[jmcc5400]

That HBP sucked, but Nomar was still great until that mystery injury destroyed him in 2004.

Oh, sure. But he went from a 150 OPS+ guy who drew serious comparisons to Joe DiMaggio to a 125 OPS + guy more akin to Xander. Great but not GREAT.

 

[Jimy Hendrix]

That HBP sucked, but Nomar was still great until that mystery injury destroyed him in 2004.

He was still good after that, but still great is a stretch for his 2002/2003 IMO.

If I remember the difference qualitatively, it was that Peak Nomar just smacked lasers to all parts of the park, while Post-Peak Nomar would way more often try to pull pitches he had no business pulling instead of taking them the other way, to lessened effect.

If you have the old ezBoard archives somewhere, that’s when you’d start seeing the nickname Garciapopup entering the game thread discourse. Man was still hitting .315, .320, but never looked like he did before.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

It's so hard to assess defense from that era---the premise of the trade was that Nomar's defense (and to a lesser degree, at 1B) was a fatal flaw. I don''t think that was wrong, and it certainly got better with OCab and Mientkiewicz. But it's hard to make the statistical case with certainty as the defensive metrics were pretty raw