Joey Votto: Hall of Famer?

[mauf]

Votto likely played his last home game in Cincinnati today, and with his meager 2023 performance (203/306/441 in 61 games), he isn’t getting an opportunity to chase a ring somewhere else next year. So I think he’ll retire.

Is he a Hall of Famer? Here are the numbers:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vottojo01.shtml

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/joey-votto/4314/stats?position=1B

On the plus side, Votto is 57th all-time in OPS+ (144) and is similarly well within the top 100 all-time in virtually every advanced measures of offensive performance, and is in the top 50 in some metrics. He led the NL in OBP seven times, including four years in a row (2010-13). He also won a Gold Glove, and while he probably didn’t deserve that, he was consistently an average to above-average defender through his prime years.

The case against? Due to injuries, he had a relatively short career — he’s going to wind up with about 300 fewer PAs than Jim Rice, who had a short career by HOF standards. Hell, Votto only had about 900 PAs more than Kirby Puckett, who had just about the shortest career of any Hall of Famer in the past 50 years. As a result, Votto falls short of traditional HOF benchmarks: 2134 hits, 356 HRs. He’s also going to roll up short of a .300 career BA (.295). In addition, he was only a 6-time All-Star — which shouldn’t be a credential (or lack thereof), but is definitely used by some less sophisticated HOF voters as a gauge of who was great versus merely good.

So, what does SoSH think? (I set up the poll with four options, so you can opine on both what you think should happen and what you think the BBWAA will do.)

 

[CaptainLaddie]

I think he's in. Eventually.

Pros:
- Rate stats are excellent (295/409/511) -- guys with at least 8700 PA (he has 8736) and 290/405/505 are: Cobb, Musial, Bonds, Ott, Ruth, Mantle, Big Hurt, Foxx, Manny, Ted, Hornsby, Helton, Gehrig, Bagwell, Heilmann, and Votto. That's the list. 16 guys. 2 guys who won't get in the HOF because of PEDs, a guy who played in Denver and should eventually get in, 12 HOFs, and Votto.
- Played 17 seasons with the same team.
- Finished first in NL OBP 7 times (which is pretty goddamn impressive) and if he hadn't stuck out the 2023 season, retires with a career average over .300.
- OPS+ of 144 is pretty god damn good --
- Won MVP, finished top 10 in MVP 6 times.
- Didn't pop out to the infield for.... ever. I know that doesn't count, but fuck. It's incredible.
- Personable, likable guy who never made an enemy in the game. This absolutely counts.

Cons:
- Counting stats aren't that impressive.
- Small market team, Canadian (sorry)

The bolded is the key. If he doesn't get in, I'm very confused. Of his historical peers, all of them deserve to be in the HOF -- even if he's the lowest guy on that list in terms of OPS (but not OPS+).

 

[Bergs]

I love Joey Votto. Love him. But I don't think he's in unless there are some significant adjustments to how voters interpret counting stats.

 

[The Mort Report]

I can't see it. He is/was really good at many things, but not really great at any stat that catches eyeballs. A guy like Lance Berkman put up slightly better offensive numbers in about 800 fewer at bats and had a few more loud seasons than Votto and got only 5 votes his only time on the ballot. Mark Teixeira was slightly worse than Votto, but played for bigger markets and won a title, only got 6 votes in 2022. He's a great player, not a Hall of Fame player. I'd be surprised if he makes it through more than one round on the ballot

 

[RG33]

I think Votto belongs, but it will likely take some time for him to get in.

Of the players with a .920+ OPS in their career (in order), the only players who are not Hall of Famers are:

(5th) Barry Bonds
(11th) Manny Ramirez
(13th) Mark McGwire
(23rd) Todd Helton
(27th) Lefty O’Doul (played only 6 years as OF in late 1920’s and early 1930’s after being a RP early in career)
(30th) Lance Berkman
(34th) Joe Jackson
(36th) Albert Belle (1500 games, retired at 33)
(42nd) Alex Rodriguez
(43rd) Carlos Delgado (2000 games)
(47th) Charlie Keller (6 full seasons in the 1940s, 1100 total games)
(49th) Ken Williams (9 full seasons in the 1920’s, 1400 total games)

He probably falls into the same bucket with Berkmann and Delgado — both of whom I think belong in the Hall of Fame. Helton gets dinged because of his Coors Field numbers (and his last 8 years were rather unremarkable, especially for playing in Coors). Belle gets dinged for his short career which is probably valid, though he had a 6-year run that was as good as any modern player, with 5 top 10 MVP finishes, OPSing over 1.000.

*Delgado: 2 All Stars, 4 Top 10 MVP finishes, 0 GGs, 43rd in Career OPS, 34th in Career HRs
*Berkman: 6 All Stars, 6 Top 10 MVP finishes, 0 GGs, 30th in Career OPS, 85th in Career HRs
*Votto: 6 All Stars, 6 Top 10 MVP finishes (1 Win), 1 GG, 51st in Career OPS, 91st in Career HRs
*Belle: 5 All Stars, 5 Top 10 MVP finishes, 0 GGs, 36th in Career OPS, 73rd in Career HRs
*Helton: 5 All Stars, 3 Top 10 MVP finishes, 3 GGs, 23rd in Career OPS, 82nd in Career HRs

I think Delgado / Berkman / Votto belong. I don’t think Belle / Helton will get in, but Belle should have a better shot than Helton IMO. Belle would have probably gotten in if he had been healthy enough to play 3-5 more years and accumulated some more counting stats.

Also, among active players, Trout (12th), Judge (14th), and Soto (32nd) are in the top 50 of OPS for career currently.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I think the counting stats part is a problem. I am not sure voters are really ready to value the base on balls as much as they probably should. OPS is OPS, but I think taking ball four still has a bit of a stigma and is not valued as much as it should be. Maybe I am wrong about that. Lots of HOFers top the BB leader board, but for many, they walked a lot because pitchers were super careful with them. They walk because they are sluggers. Votto had some of that for sure. But I think what gets his numbers to borderline HOF was his supernatural eye. I don’t know how that plays.

 

[radsoxfan]

A quick check of Bref has Votto at 64.4 career WAR, tied for 146th all time (with Mookie Betts strangely enough).

Obviously that's a bit of a broad brush way to look at it, but he does seems like a fringe HOF guy to me. I might vote for him, but I don't think he is slam dunk.

Have a feeling the counting stats will hold him back on a lot of ballots.

 

[Leskanic's Thread]

I'm a Big Hall guy, so I vote yes. He's borderline, but has done enough to cross the border.

The inevitable media career he has post-retirement will help him (barring any sort of controversy, of course).

It's possible it takes him getting to whatever version of the Today's Game Era Committee exists in 2039, but he'll get in.

 

[Zedia]

A quick check of Bref has Votto at 64.4 career WAR, tied for 146th all time (with Mookie Betts strangely enough).

Obviously that's a bit of a broad brush way to look at it, but he does seems like a fringe HOF guy to me. I might vote for him, but I don't think he is slam dunk.

Have a feeling the counting stats will hold him back on a lot of ballots.

Whoa, I‘m only a casual fan at this point, but I thought Votto was pretty much a lock. That Mookie is at the same WAR is kind of mind-blowing.

 

[Was (Not Wasdin)]

I voted yes, and should be, but i think it will be a while before he gets in, via the old timers or whatever it will be committee.

If Votto has played his last game, he will almost certainly be passed, in both WAR and counting stats, by both Paul Goldschmidt and Freddie Freeman during his waiting period. Pujols is eligible in a few more years, and this may be it for Miggy Cabrera as well. By the time he is eligible, Votto will likely be last among this group in both WAR and counting stats, and I cant see five first basemen from the 2000s-2010s getting in by the traditional route.

That being said, others above have made the case as to why his rate stats, over a pretty long career and not just a 4-5 year stretch, should get him in.

 

[moondog80]

OBP might be the single most important basic stat, and he led the league 7 times. He also probably gets a bump for playing his whole career with the same team. In.

 

[tims4wins]

It's not just counting stats in total that hurt him, but on an annual basis. Only surpassed 100 RBI 3 times. Only hit 30 HR 3 times. 300+ total bases 4 times.

 

[Toe Nash]

12th in JAWS and 15th in WAR for 1Bmen. Easy in for me.

He might have to wait a while since there aren't a lot of noisy Cincinnati fans who can mount a campaign for him though, unlike some players he's better than.

 

[CarolinaBeerGuy]

I think he’s borderline, but the counting stats are just a touch short for me. I like the guy and would be fine with him getting in. That said, I think the writer’s put him in after a few ballots.

 

[axx]

If Votto has played his last game, he will almost certainly be passed, in both WAR and counting stats, by both Paul Goldschmidt and Freddie Freeman during his waiting period. Pujols is eligible in a few more years, and this may be it for Miggy Cabrera as well. By the time he is eligible, Votto will likely be last among this group in both WAR and counting stats, and I cant see five first basemen from the 2000s-2010s getting in by the traditional route.

If there's one thing that will help Votto, it's that Pujols and Cabrera should have been out of baseball a long time earlier... and only stuck around because of the contract length.

 

[nvalvo]

The counting stats aren't there, but the rate stats sure are. It will be an interesting barometer about where people are on these questions.

I voted that he should be in, but probably won't be.

 

[Devizier]

He's probably more deserving than Jim Rice and a handful of other borderline Hall members, but I don't see Votto getting in easily.

 

[Kliq]

He's better than a lot of guys in the Hall of Fame. He also will likely be appearing on the ballot without a ton of competition from his era, there are not going to be a ton of sure-things when he hits the ballot, which might help him.

 

[wiffleballhero]

I don't know.

But I do wonder if he would be a lock had he played for a higher profile franchise and had more time in meaningful games in October.

It seems like a really good career playing an awful lot of garbage time baseball. Edgar Martinez got in and he does not seem that far off from Votto to me.

 

[8slim]

Will or should is the question, obviously?

For the 8slim HoF, my criteria is that a player be truly dominant for a 10-12 year stretch. I'm not interested in rewarding the above average compilers. So I'm all for Rice being in the Hall, and I despise that Harold Baines is in it.

Thus I'd put Votto in. His 2008-2018 was great. That he didn't tack on another 45 HRs and 250 hits in his final seasons really shouldn't matter. Of course he might have gotten halfway to those extra counting stats had the 2020 season been played in full.

I suspect, though, that the writers won't be kind to him.

 

[simplicio]

Not putting him in would be such a colossal middle finger to Cincinnati, I don't think the voters have the guts to deny him.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I suspect, though, that the writers won't be kind to him.

This is the part I'm not sold on. He's not unpopular with writers. From what I've seen over the years, he's a great and willing interview. That sort of thing seems to go a long way with media members. The sort of thing that usually puts a guy with borderline statistics (and that's strictly on the counting ones) over the top. I agree with others that say he'll get in but it might take a few ballots.

 

[Kliq]

 

[8slim]

This is the part I'm not sold on. He's not unpopular with writers. From what I've seen over the years, he's a great and willing interview. That sort of thing seems to go a long way with media members. The sort of thing that usually puts a guy with borderline statistics (and that's strictly on the counting ones) over the top. I agree with others that say he'll get in but it might take a few ballots.

I didn't mean they don't like him. Not at all. Just that he doesn't have the eye-popping counting stats that make inclusion a no brainer.

I suspect if he gets in it'll take several ballots, and a year where there is a dearth of slam dunk candidates, coupled with someone leading a campaign to get him in.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Counting stats and lack of any kind of postseason success (not his fault of course) make him real borderline for me. Great player, but playing in relative obscurity for mediocre Reds teams, and really fading the last few years don’t help his cause- what’s your favorite Joey Votto moment or memory? I’m hard pressed to come up with much of anything.

 

[Max Power]

If there's one thing that will help Votto, it's that Pujols and Cabrera should have been out of baseball a long time earlier... and only stuck around because of the contract length.

Votto's been a below average hitter for 3 of the last 5 years of his very long contract. He was marginally more productive than Pujols and Cabrera at the back end of their deals, but they were way better than him before that point.

His one plus-plus skill as a baseball player was taking walks, but those walks never led to any amazing runs scored totals. He was best at the most boring positive contribution a hitter can make and his team was so bad it never translated into real runs and wins. I wouldn't vote him in, but he would be far from the worst selection.

 

[DeadlySplitter]

Hall of Very Good like Pedroia. Maybe he sneaks in in the 7th-10th years.

 

[bankshot1]

Votto: Veni, Vidi Vague

Vets validate

If he goes in I hope its with Dewey or Pedroia

 

[CaptainLaddie]

Counting stats and lack of any kind of postseason success (not his fault of course) make him real borderline for me. Great player, but playing in relative obscurity for mediocre Reds teams, and really fading the last few years don’t help his cause- what’s your favorite Joey Votto moment or memory? I’m hard pressed to come up with much of anything.

That he didn't pop out to the infield. Really, that he didn't pop out to first until 2019. It even got an MLB app push notification when it happened!

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

That he didn't pop out to the infield. Really, that he didn't pop out to first until 2019. It even got an MLB app push notification when it happened!

Haha. If he does make it, I hope this ends up on his HOF plaque!

 

[radsoxfan]

Hall of Very Good like Pedroia. Maybe he sneaks in in the 7th-10th years.

Don't want to harp too much on WAR as the end all be all.... but it puts him a pretty clear level above Pedroia (64.4 vs 51.9)

The 60-65 WAR and above guys tend to be Hall of Famers unless there is a very good reason to the contrary. Maybe the counting stats and lack of postseason suffice.

I do think he's a fringe guy on the edge, but probably should squeak in.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

That he didn't pop out to the infield. Really, that he didn't pop out to first until 2019. It even got an MLB app push notification when it happened!

Never had a sacrifice bunt either. Which I regard as borderline black ink.

 

[brs3]

Was Joey Votto one of the best of his era? Sure. One of the best ever? I'm less convinced. When you need to start comparing him to the less 'worthy' HOF members, it's not a strong argument. I almost started off with let Dewey in before Votto, but I get why he isn't, for the most part. I'd also understand why Votto would miss, too.

 

[DJnVa]

In a world where Harold Baines eventually got in, Votto should. If Votto played 5 more full seasons and over that time had an OBP of about .190, he'd finish about where Baines did. He could slug about .240 over the next 5 years and finish about where Baines did. He'd have to average like 146 hits, 6 doubles, 6 HRs, and score about 25 runs a season over those 5 years to catch Baines.

I get that he actually *didn't* do those things, but at some point, it's not just about compiling. He was really really good at the most important thing for a hitter.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Looked at his "black ink" and it's impressive. Then you notice that it's weighted heavily in BB and OBP, very important, but he never led the league in homers or RBI. HOF first basemen should lead the league in those. Sure, RBI ain't what they used to be but we still have a lot of legacy writers that swear by them Still, one if THE best hitters of his generation, he gets in, although maybe not first ballot.

 

[8slim]

In a world where Harold Baines eventually got in, Votto should. If Votto played 5 more full seasons and over that time had an OBP of about .190, he'd finish about Baines. He could slug about .240 over the next 5 years and finish about Baines. He'd have to average like 146 hits, 6 doubles, 6 HRs, and score about 25 runs a season over those 5 years to catch Baines.

I get that he actually *didn't* do those things, but at some point, it's not just about compiling. He was really really good at the most important thing for a hitter.

The inclusion of Harold freakin' Baines broke the Hall for me. I became a baseball fan right as his career was taking off, and there was no sport I followed more rabidly in the 80s/early 90s than baseball. And not a single GD time did I, or anyone, ever have a conversation about Harold Baines being a generationally great baseball player.

And I liked Harold Baines. I would always try to have him on my all-star APBA league games that I'd play with my neighborhood baseball nerd friends.

But once he got in the Hall then I decided the bar needs to be lowered substantially for everyone else.

 

[Sad Sam Jones]

The inclusion of Harold freakin' Baines broke the Hall for me. I became a baseball fan right as his career was taking off, and there was no sport I followed more rabidly in the 80s/early 90s than baseball. And not a single GD time did I, or anyone, ever have a conversation about Harold Baines being a generationally great baseball player.

And I liked Harold Baines. I would always try to have him on my all-star APBA league games that I'd play with my neighborhood baseball nerd friends.

But once he got in the Hall then I decided the bar needs to be lowered substantially for everyone else.

Jack Morris was just as bad – better or worse depending on how much weight you want to give a few post-season innings – and was in the Hall of Fame before Baines, by the same means.

 

[opes]

Just for reference, Here is the list of HOF players by WAR. Those highlighted yellow are currently in. Everyone else is their current WAR numbers. Votto is currently sitting on the list at 146.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_career_Wins_Above_Replacement_leaders

 

[moondog80]

Harold Baines is an anomaly. If your argument is "he's better than Harold Baines", you have a weak argument. Same with Jack Morris.

That said, I repeat my support for Votto. 7 times he led the league in OBP. Has anyone led the league in something that important as many times and not been an easy selection?

 

[8slim]

Jack Morris was just as bad – better or worse depending on how much weight you want to give a few post-season innings – and was in the Hall of Fame before Baines, by the same means.

I can remember the time in the 80s when Morris was considered one of the top AL pitchers though. '81 to '87. Obviously in retrospect his advanced numbers never really supported that, but he was winning 19-20 games a year, had an ERA in the mid-3s, struck out a lot of guys, and was on 2 World Series winners (including nabbing the MVP in an epic performance).

So I get why Morris is in the Hall.

But Baines?

Harold Baines?

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Just for reference, Here is the list of HOF players by WAR. Those highlighted yellow are currently in. Everyone else is their current WAR numbers. Votto is currently sitting on the list at 146.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_career_Wins_Above_Replacement_leaders

I think you sort of have to take pitchers out, since pitcher WAR and position player WAR are pretty different things. Quick count (and I may not have recognized all the old timers) I see about 39 pitchers ahead of Votto, so I think the apt WAR list would have him around 108 in position player WAR.

Not to go too off topic, but one thing that jumped out to me about that list was Adrian Beltre. I mean, I knew he had a good case to be a first-ballot HOF player but I'm not sure I ever have really paid attention to his WAR. I guess I usually look at Fangraphs not BR, so did not know he was so high in the stratosphere in bWAR. Talk about a player that highlights the difference between fWAR and bWAR. I guess it's not surprising that a 3B would have such a big difference, but 10 wins is a huge difference between the two models.

 

[Seels]

He'll make it in. 35th all time in MVP shares, played all with one team, 12th in Jaws. Maybe not a first ballot guy but tough to see an argument where he's not in.

 

[Seels]

The inclusion of Harold freakin' Baines broke the Hall for me. I became a baseball fan right as his career was taking off, and there was no sport I followed more rabidly in the 80s/early 90s than baseball. And not a single GD time did I, or anyone, ever have a conversation about Harold Baines being a generationally great baseball player.

And I liked Harold Baines. I would always try to have him on my all-star APBA league games that I'd play with my neighborhood baseball nerd friends.

But once he got in the Hall then I decided the bar needs to be lowered substantially for everyone else.

Agree with this. Once he got in it went from being a serious thing to a who cares thing. I don't care if he was a VC pick or not.

 

[Kliq]

Votto is better than a bunch of guys in the Hall of Fame, not just Baines and Morris. That doesn't necessarily mean he should get in, but there are tons of guys with less impressive careers than Votto.

 

[RG33]

Harold Baines is an anomaly. If your argument is "he's better than Harold Baines", you have a weak argument. Same with Jack Morris.

Yeah, and I get the recency bias with both of these guys, but there are a lot of early 20th century guys who do not belong in the HofF. The Veterans Committee is basically a Cronyism system that has let in a lot of “very good” guys the last 50 years.

 

[Garfinvold]

I think Lee Smith was even worse than Baines.....

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Here's a fun one: Votto v. Ichiro.

I think Ichiro is going to get in pretty handily. 3089 hits, 509 sbs, 6 200 hit seasons, 10 time All Star, 10 time Gold Glove. I think voters will not look much past 3089 hits, and to the extent they think they need to justify overlooking some of his somewhat pedestrian career advanced numbers, 10 ASG, 10 GG, and top 35 all time stolen bases give you cover. So does the fact that he was a massive star in Japan before playing in the U.S.A.

But it's fascinating to compare Ichiro and Votto. Votto has never had a 200 hit year and is nowhere near 3000 hits. But the hits difference is almost completely neutralized by the fact that Ichiro didn't like to take ball 4 and Votto has one of the best eyes in the history of the game -- he had 700 more walks in 2000 fewer PAs. Ichiro obviously is not close to Votto in power hitting -- there's a .167 SLG difference and OPS+ is 144 to 107.

In WAR, they are comparable, with Votto having a slight edge. So, two players that were similar in terms of the value they added, but with very different skills sets. It will kind of be a fascinating view into what the voters value. The flashy perpetual all star with a massive glove and arm who could turn any ground ball to third base into a double, versus a consistent slugger who played 17 years and could be relied on to keep the line moving 4 out of every 10 PAs.

It's not entirely fair, because Ichiro deserves some consideration for the age that he started playing and the fact that he also had a career before his MLB career, but just lining up the numbers on these two 60 WAR HOF contenders is pretty fascinating.

 

[jcaz]

Some potentially useful data in support of the conversation.

I made a list of all Hall of Famers who were inducted as Players. I excluded those whose primary position was pitcher (except Ruth). I then eliminated anyone who had fewer than 400 hits - a bit of an arbitrary cutoff, but it seemed reasonable. That left 183 HOF players. Here's how Joey Votto's stats rank among these 183. Only 29 current HOF players have high OBP than JV; 40 have higher OPS.

The fact that he never had a sacrifice bunt, as DDB pointed out, is pretty amazing. All the data are from Baseball-reference.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Some potentially useful data in support of the conversation.

I made a list of all Hall of Famers who were inducted as Players. I excluded those whose primary position was pitcher (except Ruth). I then eliminated anyone who had fewer than 400 hits - a bit of an arbitrary cutoff, but it seemed reasonable. That left 183 HOF players. Here's how Joey Votto's stats rank among these 183. Only 29 current HOF players have high OBP than JV; 40 have higher OPS.

The fact that he never had a sacrifice bunt, as DDB pointed out, is pretty amazing. All the data are from Baseball-reference.

View attachment 71440

This is a really helpful way to look at it. So, if you ask the question "what did Joey Votto do that was great," there's no good answer. Except for maybe the thing that some might say matters the most:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlKDQqKh03Y

 

[opes]

Here's a fun one: Votto v. Ichiro.

I think Ichiro is going to get in pretty handily. 3089 hits, 509 sbs, 6 200 hit seasons, 10 time All Star, 10 time Gold Glove. I think voters will not look much past 3089 hits, and to the extent they think they need to justify overlooking some of his somewhat pedestrian career advanced numbers, 10 ASG, 10 GG, and top 35 all time stolen bases give you cover. So does the fact that he was a massive star in Japan before playing in the U.S.A.

But it's fascinating to compare Ichiro and Votto. Votto has never had a 200 hit year and is nowhere near 3000 hits. But the hits difference is almost completely neutralized by the fact that Ichiro didn't like to take ball 4 and Votto has one of the best eyes in the history of the game -- he had 700 more walks in 2000 fewer PAs. Ichiro obviously is not close to Votto in power hitting -- there's a .167 SLG difference and OPS+ is 144 to 107.

In WAR, they are comparable, with Votto having a slight edge. So, two players that were similar in terms of the value they added, but with very different skills sets. It will kind of be a fascinating view into what the voters value. The flashy perpetual all star with a massive glove and arm who could turn any ground ball to third base into a double, versus a consistent slugger who played 17 years and could be relied on to keep the line moving 4 out of every 10 PAs.

It's not entirely fair, because Ichiro deserves some consideration for the age that he started playing and the fact that he also had a career before his MLB career, but just lining up the numbers on these two 60 WAR HOF contenders is pretty fascinating.

I'm with you, I don't think there's any doubt Ichiro doesn't get the in HOF.

I think you sort of have to take pitchers out, since pitcher WAR and position player WAR are pretty different things. Quick count (and I may not have recognized all the old timers) I see about 39 pitchers ahead of Votto, so I think the apt WAR list would have him around 108 in position player WAR.

Not to go too off topic, but one thing that jumped out to me about that list was Adrian Beltre. I mean, I knew he had a good case to be a first-ballot HOF player but I'm not sure I ever have really paid attention to his WAR. I guess I usually look at Fangraphs not BR, so did not know he was so high in the stratosphere in bWAR. Talk about a player that highlights the difference between fWAR and bWAR. I guess it's not surprising that a 3B would have such a big difference, but 10 wins is a huge difference between the two models.

I don't think its possible at all for Ichiro not to get in. Had he played his entire career in the MLB theres are real good chance he would be the all time hits leader. Votto get in my opinion just based on his 64 war. Thats usually the baseline for automatically getting in.