Dismiss Notice
Guest, I have a big favor to ask you. We've been working very hard to establish ourselves on social media. If you like/follow our pages it would be a HUGE help to us. SoSH on Facebook and Inside the Pylon Thanks! Nip

JDM

Discussion in 'Red Sox Forum' started by mfried, Dec 27, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. chawson

    chawson Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    700
    Possibly, yes. I looked there and I also looked at dWAR here, which says Duda is not good and Moreland is good. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    I agree that he’s the only realistic alternative to Moreland this offseason. OTOH, we haven’t employed a guy who hits .200 with 30 bombs since Rob Deer.
     
    #901 chawson, Feb 13, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  2. grimshaw

    grimshaw the new rudy SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,844
    Ya I think DD had to go big or go home on Price given how badly they needed the ace, along with the market. and perhaps knowledge that Boston wasn't his first preference.

    Offense is as easy to acquire as it has been in years, and I think his comparative patience while waiting on JDM is reflective that he isn't a one trick pony.

    I also think he has a trade lined up if that falls through.
     
  3. Plympton91

    Plympton91 bubble burster SoSH Member

    Messages:
    11,463
    It’s Amazing that just 3 years ago the Red Sox botched their big opportunity to be sellers because everyone knew how hard it was to find power hitters in the post steroid testing age. My how the narrative swings.
     
  4. MikeM

    MikeM Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,609
    Yet there is also evidence, and coming straight out of the horse's mouth no less, that he was:

    https://www.mlb.com/news/hanley-ramirez-may-play-first-base-in-2018/c-261818726

    Which in context to the post you just pulled that quote out of still adds a potential doubt aspect for me on whether DD makes ultimately that call at the time if he was still truly planning on a more legitimate possibility of adding JDM to our 2018 roster.
     
  5. John Marzano Olympic Hero

    John Marzano Olympic Hero has fancy plans, and pants to match Dope

    Messages:
    18,509
    I don't think anyone aside from late-era Lou Gorman has botched a series of moves as bad as Ben Cherington did that summer. Holy moly, what a disaster.
     
  6. OCD SS

    OCD SS Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,141
    Regarding DD’s decisiveness, I think that points to there not being another shoe to drop if JDM is signed. Id he had a trade lined up to move JBJ (or another major piece), I would expect JDM to have been taken care of so he could finish overhauling the roster. He’s going to go into ST with the roster he wants, not let you he entire plan hinge on one guy who’s holding out. I doubt a trading partner would be willing to spend the entire offseason being plan B either.

    If JDM signs, he’s probably the last real move.
     
  7. grimshaw

    grimshaw the new rudy SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,844
    Ya - that was the off season when right handed pull hitters were supposedly at a premium.

    I was thinking more like a trade with a rebuilding team whose timing for a deal doesn't matter - like Abreu. Not that he's on the table, but something along those lines.
     
  8. Sampo Gida

    Sampo Gida lurker

    Messages:
    4,328
    If the latest reports by Speir of the Red Sox top offer to JDM is true (5/100) then I can understand him being insulted and doubt he ever suits up in a Red Sox uniform. I also think if he did sign at that price he would not be a happy camper and could impact his performance , unless there was a 1 year optout
     
  9. Captaincoop

    Captaincoop Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,547
    I don't understand this business of being "insulted". There are clearly no better offers out there. Are the Red Sox supposed to pay him whatever makes him feel good about himself, or does the market dictate his value?
     
  10. Byrdbrain

    Byrdbrain Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,057
    He can be disappointed but if he is insulted and doesn’t sign with the Sox because of that then he is dumb. $100 million is multi-generation life changing money and if it is the best offer he’ll take it.
     
  11. Pozo the Clown

    Pozo the Clown lurker

    Messages:
    309
    When Curt Flood took a stand and challenged the reserve clause, I doubt he ever envisioned a day when a player would be "insulted" by a nine-figure offer.
     
  12. Snodgrass'Muff

    Snodgrass'Muff oppresses WARmongers Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    27,646
    This is idiotic. He's insulted that the top offer was only 100 million so he'll sign for something less than that? Is 80 million less insulting somehow?
     
  13. moondog80

    moondog80 heart is two sizes two small SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,356
    I'm guessing that in his mind, the Red Sox have a lot more money to spend. So a $100 mil from them could be seen as an insult whereas from Arizona it is more like them doing all they reasonably can. There are some holes in that logic of course, but it's not 100% baseless.
     
  14. nvalvo

    nvalvo Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    13,539
    I am one who is curious about the Mitchell Lichtman, Rob Arthur, and Ben Lindbergh research that has pointed out that the league-wide HR/BIP rate spiked after the 2015 ASG.

    So according to your theory, he's supposed to be so insulted by a low-ball Red Sox offer that he takes a *lower* offer from a team he's already been successful for? It's not like I know any better, but I'm not sure I find that plausible.
     
  15. BigPapiMPD34

    BigPapiMPD34 lurker

    Messages:
    80
    I'm not sure why some people believe that JDM is actually insulted or "fed up." It's a negotiating tactic by Boras to try to convince the Sox that they need to offer more money. It also gives the D-Backs consideration that if they bump up their offer a bit, they might actually land JDM. If that ends up happening, the Sox then have to up their offer to remain above the D-Backs.

    I'm not sure why some people believe that Dombrowski is faking interest in JDM only to say "see, we tried" to the fans. He's simply attempting to offer the least amount of money necessary to sign him, which makes sense.
     
  16. BCsMightyJoeYoung

    BCsMightyJoeYoung Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    4,637
    Just piling on here .. It is unfathomable that an athlete would be "insulted" by a 100 million dollar contract offer. That being said I can certainly understand how he would mightily annoyed at how his market has developed - or not developed more accurately. And, regardless of where he signs, he's probably going to harbour a great deal of resentment at how this has payed out.

    I mean .. given past contracts, 100m/5 is a pretty team friendly deal. It will be quite the coup for DD to get him at that price. You have to think Boras' last gambit will be to wait well into ST in the fervent hope someone comes down with a major injury.

    The argument will be "lots of teams could afford him at that price" .. while true , in all likelihood if another team makes a competitive offer, Boston will up theirs. All that will accomplish is to drive up the price. Given a real market you would have to think a 6/150 would be the top end of any offers - with 5/125 being the ultimate contract.
     
  17. Captaincoop

    Captaincoop Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,547
    At the end of all this, if he's upset with anyone, it should be with his agent, for misreading the market and setting insane expectations (assuming that has actually happened internally and was not just a public bargaining ploy).
     
  18. MikeM

    MikeM Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,609
    Maybe he's more hung up on the comparative to other players per/year amount, and in the possibility the Red Sox haven't made the even the slightest effort to budge off that initial figure?

    Right now every detail we have is so vague to a point that the actual amount supposedly offered way back when keeps going down. Weighing in on whether he was rightfully "insulted" or not should probably wait until we see what he settles on elsewhere.
     
  19. Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat

    Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat has big, douchey shoulders Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    26,195
    He can be upset with Boras for setting unrealistic expectations. He can be upset with himself for hiring Boras. He can be upset with every other team in the league for not giving him a good offer, or even any offer. Literally the only entity that he has no reason to be upset with is the team that has a $100 million offer on the table.
    Snod is right. This line of thinking is idiotic.
     
  20. dhappy42

    dhappy42 Member

    Messages:
    2,513
    Insulted? Why? Does he have a better offer?

    It makes no sense at all for JDM to be angry at or insulted by the Red Sox. They’ve offered him a better deal than 29 other baseball teams.
     
  21. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    54,589
    Percentage of today's major-leaguers with $100 million-plus contracts who know about Curt Flood ... 10? ...20%

    One of baseball's most historically important players. Not many people can bring both George Will and Jesse Jackson to speak at their funeral.

    https://miscbaseball.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/remembering-curt-flood-after-his-death-in-1997/
     
  22. MikeM

    MikeM Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,609
    Again, the details we don't have might matter in some of these claims. You also can't take these surrounding reports at gospel value either, especially when the sources making those "highest offer on the table' claims apparently keep getting the offer amount wrong. I mean at this rate and in the event he's still not signed a week from now it might be down to $80m.

    Plus beyond all the fairly default and annual obsessing over a potential Sox connection (which if you recall started snowballing with a claim that the Sox were looking to sign BOTH JDM and Hosmer), we really don't even have a good idea of where Arizona might have stood through out all of this. For all we know they opened with a conservative extension offer of $25m/per over 3, latter made it known that they would at least match the stagnant total dollar Sox offer if/when Boras wanted to come down off his cloud, and have been a bigger potential player then us in this race since day 1.
     
  23. edoug

    edoug Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,077
    Only with the Red Sox could something like this happen.
     
  24. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    54,589
    No ... only with the obsessiveness of Red Sox fans who believe they can read the minds and assign motivations for people they have no interaction with
     
  25. Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat

    Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat has big, douchey shoulders Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    26,195
    Every part of this is correct except for the words you used and the order you put them in.
     
  26. Buzzkill Pauley

    Buzzkill Pauley Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    9,590
    The Red Sox could only happen with something like this.

    No, I think the words used are ok. It’s just the order that’s the problem.
     
  27. edoug

    edoug Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    1,077
    Yeah, I guess I'm misremembering a quote or conflating a couple of quotes from an old movie or tv show.
     
  28. Dewey'sCannon

    Dewey'sCannon lurker

    Messages:
    238
    I don't know that it would make JDM feel any less "insulted," or he and Boras more understanding of where the Sox are coming from with their offer, but I'd have to think that DD has said something to the effect that "we're already over the first tax threshold, and we can't go too high or we'll be too close to the second threshold (237)," which is pretty much a hard cap. Boras may not like it, but he's got to know that there's no way the Sox want to exceed this, or get so close that they have no flexibility for in-season moves, which limits how high they can go on the AAV.

    As others have said, I see a lot of what's being reported as negotiating tactics designed to get either AZ or the Red Sox (or a new bidder) to make a better offer. Who knows, maybe it will work. But it shouldn't cause anyone to make an offer that's unnecessary, or something that they were not already prepared to do based on their valuation of the player. In DD we trust?
     
  29. soxhop411

    soxhop411 Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    30,740
    somebody tell JDM about this

    Diamondbacks on track to unveil humidor in 2018





    https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo.../?hootPostID=8f4bf1bb61dd658cd1ecfb6003b1b5b1
     
  30. Harry Hooper

    Harry Hooper Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    23,228
    Great move by Hazen to announce the use of the humidor now. He can postpone its use as a concession to JDM without adding any money to the club's offer.
     
  31. Buzzkill Pauley

    Buzzkill Pauley Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    9,590
    Or, he’s doing his old team a solid.
     
  32. chawson

    chawson Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    700
    He was a .385 wOBA bat his entire career in Detroit, and a .446 wOBA bat in Arizona. and can't play defense. He's Nelson Cruz II.
     
  33. Snodgrass'Muff

    Snodgrass'Muff oppresses WARmongers Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    27,646
    If he's going to age like Cruz the Sox should give him his 7 year deal.
     
  34. chawson

    chawson Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    700
    At $14M per? Yeh.
     
  35. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    54,589
    Why would this humidor bother Martinez? If he goes back to Arizona, he will do so having made his money.
     
  36. MikeM

    MikeM Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,609
    In theory I'm guessing he meant it could negate some of the shorter term destination appeal Arizona would likely have over Boston.
     
  37. Hawk68

    Hawk68 lurker

    Messages:
    76
    Only in 21st century America can an individual be offered $100,000,000.00 for his services and be insulted.
     
  38. OCD SS

    OCD SS Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    7,141
    There’s so little to talk about that hasn’t already been discussed, that we’ve devolved to complaining about rumors and indirect reports of how a player feels.

    These bones are thoroughly gnawed my friends.
     
  39. JimD

    JimD Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    6,083
    What this saga is telling me is that Dave Dombrowski has a virtual free rein to run the baseball operations as he sees fit, even more than Theo had. I can't imagine that Werner and the NESN folks are thrilled about Alex Cora being the big offseason addition to try and reignite fan interest, but there is no sign that Dave is being pressured to sign Martinez or make another splashy acquisition.
     
  40. brandonchristensen

    brandonchristensen mad photochops SoSH Member

    Messages:
    14,865
    It’s wild how this just keeps going.

    I don’t feel bad for JDM one bit. Boras fucked him.
     
  41. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

    Messages:
    2,125
    It's pretty hard to feel bad for a guy who plays baseball for a living and is going to sign a deal worth a hundred million dollars.
     
  42. jon abbey

    jon abbey Shanghai Warrior Dope SoSH Member

    Messages:
    32,160
    Agreed that given what we know, these kind of alleged reactions from him towards Boston make no sense, but what if Dombrowski offered him a higher deal (5/125, let's say) and when he didn't jump at it, lowered it (to 5/100, let's say) and refuses to raise it back to the original offer? This is understandable from Dombrowski's side, but also could explain why JDM might be acting like this even though BOS is almost certainly the high bidder.
     
  43. drbretto

    drbretto guidence counselor SoSH Member

    Messages:
    8,163
    My only concern is that the Sox finally get this done and the fans in general* just give him no rope whatsoever. If he performs, it'll go away because none of this really means much, but if he struggles at all, they'll use all this against him. It will be super annoying.

    *"Fans in general" meaning WEEI callers and such, not as much here.
     
  44. No Pepper

    No Pepper Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    374
    Speier's article doesn't say the current offer is $100 million. It says it's closer to $100m than $125m. That doesn't conflict with Bruce Levine's tweet from last week reporting that the offer is and has been $110 for five years. It feels like the past few pages of this thread have adopted the $100m number.
     
  45. grandsalami

    grandsalami lurker

    Messages:
    548
    That's been my thinking, as the price keeps dropping. Say DD did tell Boras, we'll give you this price by the end of the weekend and Boras scoffs at them and assures JDM that he will get him more. DD could pull that offer completely, while JD is left with a 2/50 deal from Arizona as his only viable option. At this point, there doesn't seem to be a Mike Ilitch waiting out there and JD is risking losing tens of millions. If I were him, I'd seriously consider dropping Boras.
     
  46. Red(s)HawksFan

    Red(s)HawksFan Member SoSH Member

    Messages:
    8,720
    I find it quite implausible that Dombrowski would lower the offer, especially by 20%, simply because Martinez refused the first or because no one else was bidding anything close. This isn't a Nomar situation where after a year and more wear and tear, the team lowers its offer to a player. We're talking two months since the initial offer would have been made (early December at the Winter Meetings if reports are accurate). No way does the team's valuation of the player change that much.

    If he did that, then hell yes, Martinez would be justifiably miffed. But I don't think that happened. Just because media reports of the value of the offer on the table have fluctuated, doesn't mean anything has changed at all since the initial offer was made.
     
  47. Average Reds

    Average Reds Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

    Messages:
    20,256
    The price for JDM has not "dropped." The only thing that's changed is the number being leaked by Boras.

    If JDM accepts a 5/125 deal that has been on the table for months, Boras looks like he lost a staredown with DD. But if JDM accepts a 5/125 deal after rejecting 5/100, Boras looks like he was able to negotiate a 20% increase in the contract offer.

    We'll probably never know what the truth is, but I do not believe for even a minute that DD is lowering the Sox offer as time passes.
     
  48. John Marzano Olympic Hero

    John Marzano Olympic Hero has fancy plans, and pants to match Dope

    Messages:
    18,509
    Teams do this all the time though. When the Yankees signed Damon, didn't Cashman give him a take-it-or-leave-it offer? In other words, Cashman said, "Here is what we're prepared to offer right now. If you leave, the offer won't be on the table anymore." And Damon took it.

    GMs who are good at their job and don't want to be played as fools do this sort of thing at every negotiation. Boras, above everyone, should recognize this as SOP.
     
  49. Jerry’s Curl

    Jerry’s Curl lurker

    Messages:
    38
    Boras gets paid a cut of the overall contract, correct? So a two year deal from Arizona would be less appealing than a five year deal from Boston, even if the AAV is higher on a two year deal?
     
  50. Pozo the Clown

    Pozo the Clown lurker

    Messages:
    309
    There's a huge difference between an offer with a deadline ("we need your answer within 24 hours or it's off the table") and the concept of a "if you don't sign this week we're gonna lower the offer by X%". The former is S.O.P. The latter is S.O.B.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page