Why do people listen to the opinions of a bitter man who lost half of his money when the Sox broke the curse? This dude hawked everything curse related and when they finally won CHB pretty much became irrelevant.
I would agree. There is a counterfactual here that if DD left the farm system intact but finished second to NYY and lost in either the ALDS or ALCS last season, would we be happier right now? For some reason, I think not, aside from a small minority. Bottom line was that Dombrowski was brought in to maximize the Sox chance at a title with their existing core; mission accomplished.Isn't Theo just a younger version of Dombrowski now? When his team has a need he either throws money at it or trades away the farm. The Cubs aren't developing talent like they did a few years ago, they seem to be really in about the same spot we are where they are good enough to justify all the GFIN stuff Theo does but aren't a juggernaut like the Dodgers and figure to get a little worse as they contend with Bryant and Baez aging into being expensive. The Cubs will probably stink in 3 years which I don't think is criminal as Theo tried to capitalize on his awesome young core, but that's exactly what Dombrowski is doing.
It's still a valid point because Moncada, while excellent, was traded for Chris Sale. Torres was traded for 2 months of Chapman and Jimenez AND Cease were traded for Quintana. woof.For that matter, Dombrowski has yet to trade away anyone as good as Eloy Jimenez or Gleyber Torres while in charge of the Red Sox. Although Moncada might still make it interesting.
EDIT: Maybe I was a little hasty in posting this, because Moncada is having a better season than both of those guys. So DD only traded away one guy who's that good while Theo traded away two.
I recall most of the angst over Shaw's trade at the time it happened was more about it meaning that the Sox were putting their 3B eggs in Sandoval's basket. Of course, three months into the season, Sandoval was gone too and that opened the door for Devers. I doubt very much anyone is bemoaning the start of the Devers era. Moving Shaw was part of making that happen.I'd even argue that some - maybe most - of the angst over trading away Shaw is hindsight. He was a 26-year-old non-prospect who put up a .619 OPS in the second half of his last year here. I wouldn't blame anyone for not expecting him to break out like he did (and yes, he's currently in the middle of a terrible season).
So really, DD hasn't traded away much of anything. I mean, Kopech and Espinoza could still amount to something, and of course Moncada has been good and likely will continue to get much better. But as you said, they got Chris Sale in that deal. The Shaw deal may turn out to be bad but yeah, that trade ended up opening the door for a MUCH better player in Devers, so not a big deal. Sucks that Thornburg turned out to be utterly useless (in large part due to injuries).Just running down the list of players that Dombrowski traded away (mostly chronological order):
Alejandro De Aza: Out of baseball.
Logan Allen (Kimbrel): Struggling in his call up to the Padres, and was since traded to Cleveland. Still only 22, but future role is unclear.
Carlos Asuaje (Kimbrel): Since released, and now in Arizona's minor league system. 27.
Javy Guerra (Kimbrel): Career minor league line of 0.237/0.290/0.374/0.665. Had a cup of coffee with Padres last season.
Manuel Margot (Kimbrel): Probably the most exciting prospect in the Kimbrel trade, has had 3 mostly meh seasons with the Padres with career OPS+ of 90.
Jonathan Aro (Carson Smith): Bouncing around the minors.
Wade Miley (Carson Smith): For the most part, he's been decidedly average since he was trade. But he is having a nice season for the Astros right now.
Wendell Rio (Aaron Hill): Bouncing around the minors.
Aaron Wilkerson (Aaron Hill): Who cares.
Jose Almonte (Brad Ziegler): Unable to get above A-ball.
Luis Basabe (Brad Ziegler, Chris Sale): Ditto.
Anderson Espinoza (Drew Pomerantz): Little Pedro hasn't thrown a pitch in anger in nearly 3 years. He'll likely be 22 if/when his career resumes. This name should be mentioned whenever someone claims that Tommy John surgery is routine nowadays and so should not raise any concerns.
Pat Light (Fernando Abad): Who cares.
Victor Diaz (Sale): Out of baseball.
Michael Kopech (Sale): Rehabbing from Tommy John surgery. If we blame DD for picking up a pitcher that gets hurt, should we credit him every time he trades a pitcher that gets similarly injured?
Yoan Moncada (Sale): Having a good season under the radar for the White Sox.
Josh Pennington (Thornburg): Single A player at 22.
Mauricio Dubon (Thornburg): Had 2 major league at bats before being traded for Pomeranz.
Travis Shaw (Thornburg): Has cooled off significantly after 2 breakout seasons.
Yeison Coca (Thornburg): Completed the Thornburg trade. 20 y/o in single-A.
Clay Buchholz (Josh Tobias): Has had 5 starts for the Blue Jays this season. With a 6.57 ERA.
Gregory Santos (Nunez): Was 17 at the time of the trade. In single-A, but obviously a long way from sniffing the majors.
Shaun Anderson (Nunez): One of Dombrowski's draft picks. Has started 15 games for the Giants this year, but his numbers do not indicate his presence would solve what ails the Sox this season.
Gerson Bautista (Reed): Became part of the Cano trade. Throwing strikes seems to be an issue (9.5 BB/9 is pretty bad, albeit in only 13 innings).
Jamie Callahan (Reed): Since released by Mets, now in low minors for the Giants at 24.
Stephen Nogosek (Reed): It's obviously too early to conclude anything from the 6 ML innings he's pitched in relief for the Mets this season. But based on his minor league numbers he likely seems to be slated for mid-bullpen type role (think Hembree as his ceiling).
Rafael Rincones (Rajai Davis): Has a 0.788 OPS this season at age 19. Only problem is that it is in rookie league.
Deven Merrero (Josh Taylor): In the Miami organization after 78 nondescript at-bats for the D-Backs last season.
Roenis Elias (Eric Filla): Still amazed at the angst at the time he was DFA'd due to a roster crunch during a 108-win season. Did find a role as middle-bullpen guy with Seattle before his trade to the Nats.
Santiago Espinal (Pearce): Hit 5 dingers for the Fisher Cats this season. Too bad the guy the Sox got for him didn't amount to anything in October.
Jalen Beeks (Eovaldi): Established middle reliever for the Rays.
Williams Jerez (Kinsler): Now with the Giants after posting a 71 ERA+ for the Angels last season.
Ty Buttrey (Kinsler): Doing a good job as solid late reliever for the Angels.
Is there really anyone on that list that we wish the Sox had instead of the 2018 season? Moncada is good, and Buttrey and Beeks would be admittedly useful right now. But not sure you can blame Dombrowski for either one. Shaw for Thornburg is probably the biggest miss, but injuries happen.
I agree with this, but I think the hypothetical beef will be "yeah, he didn't end up giving away much, but he *should* have gotten much more for them." I think that's a ridiculous argument, but its one i've heard/seen here and elsewhere.So really, DD hasn't traded away much of anything. I mean, Kopech and Espinoza could still amount to something, and of course Moncada has been good and likely will continue to get much better. But as you said, they got Chris Sale in that deal. The Shaw deal may turn out to be bad but yeah, that trade ended up opening the door for a MUCH better player in Devers, so not a big deal. Sucks that Thornburg turned out to be utterly useless (in large part due to injuries).
Anderson Espinoza was being touted as a potential ace in 2016 and generally considered as a top 20 prospect in all of MLB - I still don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that he could have fetched more than Drew Pomeranz.I agree with this, but I think the hypothetical beef will be "yeah, he didn't end up giving away much, but he *should* have gotten much more for them." I think that's a ridiculous argument, but its one i've heard/seen here and elsewhere.
Might have even gotten CashnerAnderson Espinoza was being touted as a potential ace in 2016 and generally considered as a top 20 prospect in all of MLB - I still don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that he could have fetched more than Drew Pomeranz.
Much obliged for this breakdown. Seems like aJust running down the list of players that Dombrowski traded away (mostly chronological order):
Alejandro De Aza: Out of baseball.
Logan Allen (Kimbrel): Struggling in his call up to the Padres, and was since traded to Cleveland. Still only 22, but future role is unclear.
Carlos Asuaje (Kimbrel): Since released, and now in Arizona's minor league system. 27.
Javy Guerra (Kimbrel): Career minor league line of 0.237/0.290/0.374/0.665. Had a cup of coffee with Padres last season.
Manuel Margot (Kimbrel): Probably the most exciting prospect in the Kimbrel trade, has had 3 mostly meh seasons with the Padres with career OPS+ of 90.
Jonathan Aro (Carson Smith): Bouncing around the minors.
Wade Miley (Carson Smith): For the most part, he's been decidedly average since he was trade. But he is having a nice season for the Astros right now.
Wendell Rio (Aaron Hill): Bouncing around the minors.
Aaron Wilkerson (Aaron Hill): Who cares.
Jose Almonte (Brad Ziegler): Unable to get above A-ball.
Luis Basabe (Brad Ziegler, Chris Sale): Ditto.
Anderson Espinoza (Drew Pomerantz): Little Pedro hasn't thrown a pitch in anger in nearly 3 years. He'll likely be 22 if/when his career resumes. This name should be mentioned whenever someone claims that Tommy John surgery is routine nowadays and so should not raise any concerns.
Pat Light (Fernando Abad): Who cares.
Victor Diaz (Sale): Out of baseball.
Michael Kopech (Sale): Rehabbing from Tommy John surgery. If we blame DD for picking up a pitcher that gets hurt, should we credit him every time he trades a pitcher that gets similarly injured?
Yoan Moncada (Sale): Having a good season under the radar for the White Sox.
Josh Pennington (Thornburg): Single A player at 22.
Mauricio Dubon (Thornburg): Had 2 major league at bats before being traded for Pomeranz.
Travis Shaw (Thornburg): Has cooled off significantly after 2 breakout seasons.
Yeison Coca (Thornburg): Completed the Thornburg trade. 20 y/o in single-A.
Clay Buchholz (Josh Tobias): Has had 5 starts for the Blue Jays this season. With a 6.57 ERA.
Gregory Santos (Nunez): Was 17 at the time of the trade. In single-A, but obviously a long way from sniffing the majors.
Shaun Anderson (Nunez): One of Dombrowski's draft picks. Has started 15 games for the Giants this year, but his numbers do not indicate his presence would solve what ails the Sox this season.
Gerson Bautista (Reed): Became part of the Cano trade. Throwing strikes seems to be an issue (9.5 BB/9 is pretty bad, albeit in only 13 innings).
Jamie Callahan (Reed): Since released by Mets, now in low minors for the Giants at 24.
Stephen Nogosek (Reed): It's obviously too early to conclude anything from the 6 ML innings he's pitched in relief for the Mets this season. But based on his minor league numbers he likely seems to be slated for mid-bullpen type role (think Hembree as his ceiling).
Rafael Rincones (Rajai Davis): Has a 0.788 OPS this season at age 19. Only problem is that it is in rookie league.
Deven Merrero (Josh Taylor): In the Miami organization after 78 nondescript at-bats for the D-Backs last season.
Roenis Elias (Eric Filla): Still amazed at the angst at the time he was DFA'd due to a roster crunch during a 108-win season. Did find a role as middle-bullpen guy with Seattle before his trade to the Nats.
Santiago Espinal (Pearce): Hit 5 dingers for the Fisher Cats this season. Too bad the guy the Sox got for him didn't amount to anything in October.
Jalen Beeks (Eovaldi): Established middle reliever for the Rays.
Williams Jerez (Kinsler): Now with the Giants after posting a 71 ERA+ for the Angels last season.
Ty Buttrey (Kinsler): Doing a good job as solid late reliever for the Angels.
Is there really anyone on that list that we wish the Sox had instead of the 2018 season? Moncada is good, and Buttrey and Beeks would be admittedly useful right now. But not sure you can blame Dombrowski for either one. Shaw for Thornburg is probably the biggest miss, but injuries happen.
Thanks for the rundown.Just running down the list of players that Dombrowski traded away (mostly chronological order):
Alejandro De Aza: Out of baseball.
Logan Allen (Kimbrel): Struggling in his call up to the Padres, and was since traded to Cleveland. Still only 22, but future role is unclear.
Carlos Asuaje (Kimbrel): Since released, and now in Arizona's minor league system. 27.
Javy Guerra (Kimbrel): Career minor league line of 0.237/0.290/0.374/0.665. Had a cup of coffee with Padres last season.
Manuel Margot (Kimbrel): Probably the most exciting prospect in the Kimbrel trade, has had 3 mostly meh seasons with the Padres with career OPS+ of 90.
Jonathan Aro (Carson Smith): Bouncing around the minors.
Wade Miley (Carson Smith): For the most part, he's been decidedly average since he was trade. But he is having a nice season for the Astros right now.
Wendell Rio (Aaron Hill): Bouncing around the minors.
Aaron Wilkerson (Aaron Hill): Who cares.
Jose Almonte (Brad Ziegler): Unable to get above A-ball.
Luis Basabe (Brad Ziegler, Chris Sale): Ditto.
Anderson Espinoza (Drew Pomerantz): Little Pedro hasn't thrown a pitch in anger in nearly 3 years. He'll likely be 22 if/when his career resumes. This name should be mentioned whenever someone claims that Tommy John surgery is routine nowadays and so should not raise any concerns.
Pat Light (Fernando Abad): Who cares.
Victor Diaz (Sale): Out of baseball.
Michael Kopech (Sale): Rehabbing from Tommy John surgery. If we blame DD for picking up a pitcher that gets hurt, should we credit him every time he trades a pitcher that gets similarly injured?
Yoan Moncada (Sale): Having a good season under the radar for the White Sox.
Josh Pennington (Thornburg): Single A player at 22.
Mauricio Dubon (Thornburg): Had 2 major league at bats before being traded for Pomeranz.
Travis Shaw (Thornburg): Has cooled off significantly after 2 breakout seasons.
Yeison Coca (Thornburg): Completed the Thornburg trade. 20 y/o in single-A.
Clay Buchholz (Josh Tobias): Has had 5 starts for the Blue Jays this season. With a 6.57 ERA.
Gregory Santos (Nunez): Was 17 at the time of the trade. In single-A, but obviously a long way from sniffing the majors.
Shaun Anderson (Nunez): One of Dombrowski's draft picks. Has started 15 games for the Giants this year, but his numbers do not indicate his presence would solve what ails the Sox this season.
Gerson Bautista (Reed): Became part of the Cano trade. Throwing strikes seems to be an issue (9.5 BB/9 is pretty bad, albeit in only 13 innings).
Jamie Callahan (Reed): Since released by Mets, now in low minors for the Giants at 24.
Stephen Nogosek (Reed): It's obviously too early to conclude anything from the 6 ML innings he's pitched in relief for the Mets this season. But based on his minor league numbers he likely seems to be slated for mid-bullpen type role (think Hembree as his ceiling).
Rafael Rincones (Rajai Davis): Has a 0.788 OPS this season at age 19. Only problem is that it is in rookie league.
Deven Merrero (Josh Taylor): In the Miami organization after 78 nondescript at-bats for the D-Backs last season.
Roenis Elias (Eric Filla): Still amazed at the angst at the time he was DFA'd due to a roster crunch during a 108-win season. Did find a role as middle-bullpen guy with Seattle before his trade to the Nats.
Santiago Espinal (Pearce): Hit 5 dingers for the Fisher Cats this season. Too bad the guy the Sox got for him didn't amount to anything in October.
Jalen Beeks (Eovaldi): Established middle reliever for the Rays.
Williams Jerez (Kinsler): Now with the Giants after posting a 71 ERA+ for the Angels last season.
Ty Buttrey (Kinsler): Doing a good job as solid late reliever for the Angels.
Is there really anyone on that list that we wish the Sox had instead of the 2018 season? Moncada is good, and Buttrey and Beeks would be admittedly useful right now. But not sure you can blame Dombrowski for either one. Shaw for Thornburg is probably the biggest miss, but injuries happen.
He was also 18 at the time, and had pitched all of 80 innings in single-A, so the risk of flameout was high. To fetch more than Pomeranz, Espinoza, much like Kopech, would have to be bundled with other prospects.Anderson Espinoza was being touted as a potential ace in 2016 and generally considered as a top 20 prospect in all of MLB - I still don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that he could have fetched more than Drew Pomeranz.
The Sale trade was very similar to the Beckett trade - a pretty clear win for both teams.Thanks for the rundown.
I do think you undersell Moncada, who turned 24 in May and has an 893 OPS this season. If the Chisox called right now and offered Moncada for Benintendi, DD would do that in a cocaine heartbreak (and probably move Devers to 1B, as Moncada didn’t really stick defensively at second). But that’s not a knock on DD — the more polished Beni was a better fit than Moncada on a team in GFIN mode.
Yep, that's a great point. It got the Sox exactly what they needed. Dominant, ace arm and a WS title. It got Chicago what they needed. A great young player who costs nothing in salary. That's exactly how these kinds of trades should work.The Sale trade was very similar to the Beckett trade - a pretty clear win for both teams.
If only the Red Sox could do these kinds of trades more than once per decade.Yep, that's a great point. It got the Sox exactly what they needed. Dominant, ace arm and a WS title. It got Chicago what they needed. A great young player who costs nothing in salary. That's exactly how these kinds of trades should work.