Felger and Mazz - Creating False Naratives one day at a time
- Thread starter HomeBrew1901
- Start date
I was responding to Bankshot's post about how the escrow has no bearing on it for an organization that long. I should have quoted it, then got caught in a page change.
Post 7350 is what i was responding to.
I do agree with Felger to an extent that the escrow is something that appears to be important to the team at some level.
Post 7350 is what i was responding to.
I do agree with Felger to an extent that the escrow is something that appears to be important to the team at some level.
the incremental cost of providing $39 million in escrow and $20 MM (or any amount) is an immaterial cost relative to either the size of the Revis contract or the scope of the Patriots business.
Its possible that a LOC from a bank like Wells Fargo or JP Morgan Chase could be had about 10 basis points.
Its possible that a LOC from a bank like Wells Fargo or JP Morgan Chase could be had about 10 basis points.
bankshot1 said:
I don't think either of these sentences are accurate. Based on both the Patriots' actual revenue numbers, the cost of corporate borrowing, and what the relationship between those numbers is, neither one of these sentences seem to be reflective of reality.
bankshot1 said:
I guess I'll ask again, what do you believe the motivation for the Pats was to redo Brady's contract to increase his total value, increase his cap number then?
The only positive, outside of escrow, was they could cut him for performance, unless I'm missing something.
How true it is or not, but the Brady restructure, then them not offering Revis a full guarantee seem to line up.
LOCs are provided all the time in commercial transactions. And the cost is relatively modest for large companies (5-25 basis points depending on co. size, or size of LOC or relationship) . Whether a LOC from Wells or JPM would suffice the NFL's need of a guarantee is not known. But it is typical in other areas of corp. transactions.
10 BP on $40MM = $40,000
I do not think that was the deal breaker.
10 BP on $40MM = $40,000
I do not think that was the deal breaker.
HomeBrew1901 said:
OK-
IMO the cost of the guarantee ($39MM-whatever guarantee the Pats were comfortable with, and i gave you an example of this could be financed via an LOC) was probably very modest relative to the other risks that the Pats saw in this contract.
Apples and orangesHomeBrew1901 said:
I have no idea why they restructured that deal. But perhaps there were other specfiic benefits to a new Brady contract structure, that has nothing to do with Revis and his contract structure.
bankshot1 said:
So if you have no idea why they did it, how can you determine if it's apples and oranges?
The only thing we know about the Brady restructure was that he's getting more money, his cap number is up, they can cut him for injury and didn't have to put tens of millions in an escrow account.
It may very well have nothing to do with anything, but I don't think you can just dismiss it.
So, I'll bring up the point again about Belichick's involvement in all of this. Assuming it is true that the failure to re-sign Revis was driven by cash flow issues and a reluctance to escrow the guaranteed portion of the contract (which only the Krafts should care about) and not salary cap issues, why would Belichick not only go along with that, but as the guy who has final say on all personnel moves, be orchestrating this whole thing?
Knowing what we know about Bill Belichick, and given what he's accomplished in his career to date, why would he be interested in working for an owner who wanted to make a move that unquestionably weakened the team simply because of the reluctance to escrow the guaranteed portion of the contract?
That just doesn't compute for me. There are a bunch of good posts in BBTL showing how signing Revis would have involved borrowing against the future cap and would have impacted their ability to re-sign some of their young guys still playing on rookie deals. That makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than Felger's take.
Knowing what we know about Bill Belichick, and given what he's accomplished in his career to date, why would he be interested in working for an owner who wanted to make a move that unquestionably weakened the team simply because of the reluctance to escrow the guaranteed portion of the contract?
That just doesn't compute for me. There are a bunch of good posts in BBTL showing how signing Revis would have involved borrowing against the future cap and would have impacted their ability to re-sign some of their young guys still playing on rookie deals. That makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than Felger's take.
Ralphwiggum said:
This is so fucking true. F&M are fucking idiots and don't understand the cap.
They're not idiots. In fact, they are quite smart. Trolling the lowest common denominator has gotten them a #1 radio show and a lucrative new contract.
Ralphwiggum, on 11 Mar 2015 - 4:12 PM, said:
Ralphwiggum said:
This can't be said enough. Signing Revis would have meant not signing others. Just like the Jets signing Revis means that Ryan Fitzpatrick is their quarterback.
MillarTime said:
That doesn't make them smart; it makes them wealthy.
apples-Brady was already under comtractNortheasternPJ said:
oranges-Revis was a free agent
you assumed the Patriot approach to both would be analagous. I didn't as the situations were different and there were too many other factors that were not known.
.
True enough. But their assertions are preposterous.MillarTime said:
BB would not put up with this for a nanosecond. In the business of the NFL, he's bigger than Kraft. Kraft needs him far more than vice versa.
Even if you exclude the NFL owners BB would not work for regardless of the money -- Jerry Jones, Daniel Snyder, York (increasingly apparent), the guy in Cleveland -- there are a dozen owners in the NFL he would work for who would fire their own coaches and happily pay whatever Kraft is paying him.
jsinger121 said:
Are you guys even listening to the show or making assumptions based on the limited posts here?dcmissle said:
So...imaginary game threading of a radio show? Fact like points, indeed.
I really can't wait for Murray's BS capacitor to overload with respect to Mazz. It will though and the often hilarious, dry and witty Murray will be openly making fun of Mazz on the air by 2016. There will be serious discussions at TSH offices after the first week of Mazz vacation / Felger & Murray happens. They have good chemistry already and though I haven't heard everything, it does sound like Felger asked for Murray. Local guy, fan, level-headed, radio pro, entertaining...you don't have to be Chad Finn to see this coming. Like many of you, I grew up listening to Big Jim on FNX and he will counter Felger's runaway narratives in a way people will appreciate.
Assuming of course, they actually listen to the show. ;-)
I really can't wait for Murray's BS capacitor to overload with respect to Mazz. It will though and the often hilarious, dry and witty Murray will be openly making fun of Mazz on the air by 2016. There will be serious discussions at TSH offices after the first week of Mazz vacation / Felger & Murray happens. They have good chemistry already and though I haven't heard everything, it does sound like Felger asked for Murray. Local guy, fan, level-headed, radio pro, entertaining...you don't have to be Chad Finn to see this coming. Like many of you, I grew up listening to Big Jim on FNX and he will counter Felger's runaway narratives in a way people will appreciate.
Assuming of course, they actually listen to the show. ;-)
H78 said:
Which is different from every other day how?
My guess would be this was more of a cap related move. As much as Felger wants to stick his head in the sand and pretend the cap doesn't exist (or I should say lie about it, I think he does understand the cap but simply trolls about it), it does exist, and this would have taken up money at a level that the team simply wasn't comfortable with. Personally, I'd have taken the risk. Release a Nate Solder or Dan Connolly, or pass on franchising Gostkowski, or do a few other moves to make it work, while admittingly weakening the team in other areas. But I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see how they stand when the season starts. Last year the first day of free agency when Talib left this team was being absolutely destroyed. They righted things and won the Super Bowl. Granted there isn't a player at Revis' talent level out there. The second guess is not having the backup plan, if that's how things go down.
soxfan121 said:
I hope you're right, but Murray sucked today. And I like him. He basically just reiterated everything Felger and Mazz said only worse. When they asked him for his input with respect to Kraft's "real money" escrow deposits versus the cap money he twice answered, "I don't understand that stuff....I'm not good with math".
BannedbyNYYFans.com said:
I'm not impressed with Murray. He seems like a cool dude, but I don't think he has the sports knowledge to challenge Felger & Mazz on anything substantial.
Though as we've noted before, Beetle stopped arguing with Felger & Mazz years ago. So it's probably not that big of a change.
bankshot1 said:
While I have no idea what the cost would be, I can't believe that Robert Kraft has any cash flow problems. The value of the Patriots is now about 10 times what he paid for the team 20+ years ago. He's an astute businessman, and he's going to take advice from his "experts" as to what moves have the best chance of increasing the value of the franchise. If the Patriots had matched the Jets' offer to Revis, then their two highest paid, and most valued, players would both be "old" for their position. Brady, because he's just old, and Revis, because 30 is getting up there for a cornerback. If one or the other were to decline or to go down to injury, both contracts would be a waste. The Patriots have experienced 15 years of success under Belichick and, with all that success, Kraft can afford to look at the long-term. Going all in is no longer worth the risk.
Felger and Mazz are just catering to a horde of spoiled callers who now feel entitled, similar to Yankee fans when George was still kicking. Mustard and Johnson would have a more legitimate take on the matter. (Are they still on?)
WenZink said:
I don't mean this to be flippant or to criticize -- I just can't believe someone is calling for Mustard and Johnson's take on anything. Proof that although we are all humans, we can be so very, very different.
Felger and Mazz' take has some measure of legitimacy. They were crystal clear, if you had been listening to them, that they expected the team to get it done, but that if they didn't they would be highly critical. It's a completely legitimate position to take if you're a radio host or a Patriots fan. I seldom understand why this stuff has to be a zero sum game in everyone's heads. There is obviously a great argument to be made that you pinch your nose and bring back a player of that caliber, which is why so many people were making that argument. There's also obviously an argument to be had around cap management and balancing long term success versus short term. But this is radio, nobody wants to hear an Ordway take on the topic so they argue for a side and a bunch of you act like they're cretins for having a different opinion on it.
Sort of encapsulates a lot of the reasons why I think so many of you seem to hate this show and others so much. It's not a novel idea, but sports talk radio is essentially mass marketing the bar talk people have about their favorite teams and players. It's a format naturally given to barely empirical or non empirical debates about best all time or snap judgments about players who are or are not playing well. On a site like this, where there's an almost lawyerly need to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt any assertion, it's such oil and water. There's almost no doubt that these two are trolling their audience some percentage of the time and they're woefully awful at backing up opinions with data in a way that would be even remotely acceptable as a post on this site, but it kind of misses the point -- the discussion and back and forth is the entertainment here, not their opinions. It's all of you nutters calling them up frothing at the mouth or posting fake takes you think they're going to say within an hour of big news happening. They've literally become that moron friend everyone has who has a take on everything and you like to / get frustrated by debating with them on sports topics.
I guess all the power to you if you're entertained by a couple of slanderous fools who are either mouth-breathers, or intentionally disingenuous.
They are allowed to be highly critical all they want. However, 15 years of results shows that contrary to these two donkey's takes on the matter, the Pats actually do know what they're doing.
They are allowed to be highly critical all they want. However, 15 years of results shows that contrary to these two donkey's takes on the matter, the Pats actually do know what they're doing.
That Mustard and Johnson reference must have been in jest, or you're getting bounced.
And they are still on, Saturday mornings on EEI.
And they are still on, Saturday mornings on EEI.
The only thing in jest was that Mustard and Johnson would be "more legitimate." In fact they'd be just as legitimate, which means no legitimacy at all.John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
Sports Talk radio hasn't meant a thing to me for years and years... save small snippets like Alex Speier's old show on Sunday mornings. I don't listen to F&M on the radio, and the only time I watch Felger and Mazz is when I happen to be home, there's some late-breaking story and I'm too tired or too lazy to search the internet -- as was the case with the Revis non-signing. If I've watched maybe 50 hours of the show, over the past 3 years or so, I haven't heard Mazz say one intelligent thing. He's just a lazy ass, who got tired of working for a living and just mails it in, every single day. Felger is nothing but an entertainer, that I personally don't find entertaining.
What interests me as a sports fan, is not what interests the typical listener of sports talk radio. It's always the same old crap, whether it's Clif and Claf or The Big Show or Felger and Mazz. What Belichick & Co have done over the past 15 years is to come up with what was supposed to be the true essence of "Moneyball." And he's executed his plan in a far more critical venue, given the NFL salary cap. That is what interests me. If it was my team, my instincts would have been to keep Revis, but, in light of Belichick's decision, I probably would have been wrong. I want to know why? I'm not going to hear that on Mustard and Johnson or on Felger and Mazz.
teddykgb said:
I heard them state that it was very likely that the reason the deal didn't get done was because Kraft didn't want to put the money into escrow. Unless they had some inside knowledge about Kraft having cash flow problems, I find that statement completely illegitimate. If he believed that matching the Jet's offer would have been the best way to increase the appreciation of his team, in the long run, he would have done it.
Dale and Holley mocking F&M. Holley trolling the Patriots and Dale occasionally chiming in 'You're Absolutely right Mike'
Like Dennis and Callahan mocking T&R it's how you know F&M are crushing them in the ratings.Marbleheader said:
It wasn't really mean spirited like im sure D&C are. Holley and Felger are also coworkers on tv. It was a well deserved knock on the sky is falling act over there since Revis signed.
i mean Reavis is a great player but shead is a good add from cle will give u a 3rd pass rusher Chandler will add to the 2-te sets
i guess fegler just wants Brady revis gronk and 50 tom dick and harrys
if D beavell had haif a brain its very likely u lose to sea and u lose reavis and browner anyway
i guess fegler just wants Brady revis gronk and 50 tom dick and harrys
if D beavell had haif a brain its very likely u lose to sea and u lose reavis and browner anyway
Mazz on Revis wanting to go to the Jets: "That's a line of bullcrap when things don't go the way you want them to. He had every reason to sign here and didn't."
Anyone want to tell Mazz that it's up to the player to sign when he's a free agent and not the other way around? What a toolbag.
Anyone want to tell Mazz that it's up to the player to sign when he's a free agent and not the other way around? What a toolbag.
Get that chicken yet?Kramerica Industries said:
I haven't listened at all this week but I thought last week Felger was pretty thoughtful on his take, Mazz as usual, useless. He went beyond his usual "you're right, Mike".
I loved mustard and Johnson growing up so my opinion on sports talk radio should be rightfully discounted with extreme prejudice.
I tuned back in this week after a hiatus following the Pedro/Steroids show. I am a much bigger fan of Felger than Mazz, so was disappointed when Mike was out with Pacman filling in. However, with Pacman at the helm, rather than Felger, Mazz was a whole lot more tolerable. Without having Felger's lap to sit on and hot sports takes to ride, he has to do some thinking for himself and while the outcome isn't all that pretty, it is far more listenable.
Unfortunately, once Mike comes back on Monday, I will turn the dial back to DH&T. Not out of any dislike of Felger or real interest in Vanilla Drivetime, but because Mazz next to Felger gives me a headache.
Unfortunately, once Mike comes back on Monday, I will turn the dial back to DH&T. Not out of any dislike of Felger or real interest in Vanilla Drivetime, but because Mazz next to Felger gives me a headache.
Gambler7 said:
Agree 100%. He is beyond terrible. He tries to be Felger-light, only with none of the cleverness or interesting angles.
MillarTime said:
I typically hate his show and generally agree with the negative sentiment towards Pacman. However, he's brought balance to Mazz's relentless whining this week, whereas when Felger is in Mazz is just a parrot and it's recently been nothing more than 4 hours of knee jerk negative reactions and trolling.
I admittedly haven't listened to he and Mazz this week. I was basing my comments on the Jones' 6pm show.jasail said: