Felger and Mazz - Creating False Naratives one day at a time

AimingForYoko

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
25,403
CT
There's also the fact that he hates the C's. Even if he liked the NBA, he would hate the C's.

Which is why you tune him out when the subject of the NBA comes up. Unless he's talking to Cedric Maxwell. Then there's a chance for hilarity.
 

ForKeeps

New Member
Oct 13, 2011
464
It's funny how everyone complains (myself included) that F&M never disagree on anything. Except, that's not their goal. Their MO isn't to disagree with each other, it's to disagree with WEEI/WEEI's narratives. Case in point (and I predicted this earlier in the thread), WEEI hates Bobby V for his prickly interviews and now they're killing him for the Youkilis thing. So of course, F&M are going to be the Bobby V defenders now (I said cheerleaders before but it's not quite to that extent).
 

Andy Merchant

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 2, 2010
1,729
Yeah, I thought that Mazz's defense of Valentine was a bit contrived. He was OK with that, but I wonder if he would be OK with his boss from the Globe going on Sports Extra and saying that Tony wasn't as physically or emotionally into his writing as he was in the past instead of talking to him directly about the perceived problem?
 

Merkle's Boner

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2011
3,854
Yeah, I thought that Mazz's defense of Valentine was a bit contrived. He was OK with that, but I wonder if he would be OK with his boss from the Globe going on Sports Extra and saying that Tony wasn't as physically or emotionally into his writing as he was in the past instead of talking to him directly about the perceived problem?
While I understand this concept, and I hear a lot of people using this line of attack on Bobby V, I do think it is off-base. The fact is that none of us work in professions where our boss is expected to talk about us to the media on a daily basis. Obviously we would all be shocked if we read something said by our boss in the newspaper. These guys read stuff everyday that their boss says about them and listen to talk radio hosts bashing them on a regular basis. It's par for the course. Now whether or not Bobby should have said it can definitely be questioned, but I don't think we can compare it to any of us having the same type of treatment. Athletes are different.
 

Andy Merchant

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 2, 2010
1,729
[quote name='Merkle's Boner' timestamp='1334666179' post='4067675']
While I understand this concept, and I hear a lot of people using this line of attack on Bobby V, I do think it is off-base. The fact is that none of us work in professions where our boss is expected to talk about us to the media on a daily basis. Obviously we would all be shocked if we read something said by our boss in the newspaper. These guys read stuff everyday that their boss says about them and listen to talk radio hosts bashing them on a regular basis. It's par for the course. Now whether or not Bobby should have said it can definitely be questioned, but I don't think we can compare it to any of us having the same type of treatment. Athletes are different.
[/quote]

Perhaps, but in this case I think that Pedroia's rebuttal shows that this was inappropriate even as far as professional athletes go. I think he saw it as a cheap shot and responded in kind.

Also, many of us are in a position where we could be called out by our boss in a "public" way. If my boss thought that I wasn't physically or emotionally into writing software anymore, IMO it would be unprofessional and showcase poor management skills if this was announced at a division meeting instead of first attempting to resolve the issue by discussing it with me privately.
 

Merkle's Boner

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2011
3,854
Perhaps, but in this case I think that Pedroia's rebuttal shows that this was inappropriate even as far as professional athletes go. I think he saw it as a cheap shot and responded in kind.

Also, many of us are in a position where we could be called out by our boss in a "public" way. If my boss thought that I wasn't physically or emotionally into writing software anymore, IMO it would be unprofessional and showcase poor management skills if this was announced at a division meeting instead of first attempting to resolve the issue by discussing it with me privately.
I agree with this. If he really was criticizing Youk, there are far better ways to handle it. I still question whether that was his ultimate goal, just because I can't believe he'd be that stupid. Regardless, the whole episode is not a good sign, and to get he discussion back to Felger and Mazz, I thought their defense of him was over the top. Just them trying to take the contrarian viewpoint as always.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,639
[quote name='Merkle's Boner' timestamp='1334668293' post='4067703']
I agree with this. If he really was criticizing Youk, there are far better ways to handle it. I still question whether that was his ultimate goal, just because I can't believe he'd be that stupid. Regardless, the whole episode is not a good sign, and to get he discussion back to Felger and Mazz, I thought their defense of him was over the top. Just them trying to take the contrarian viewpoint as always.
[/quote]

Yeah, even if they have to twist into ridiculous knots. The WEEI folks (per Felger) are supposed to be team toadies for the Sox and Celtics, yet now thery'e over-critical of the Red Sox manager. use whatever you need today, F&M, and use something else tomorrow.
 

teddykgb

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
11,125
Chelmsford, MA
I don't see it that way at all, but I didn't get to listen to much of F+M yesterday. I think their point was a good one, from what I heard. The blind defense of Youkilis is what's weird, imo. I have no idea if he's giving it his all or not, but this is exactly what the ownership signed up for. A lot of fans wanted blood from that team at the end of the season as well. It's illogical to go soft when the guy you brought in to be like this starts acting like this...it's precisely what you wanted. That seemed to be the F+M point yesterday, and on that front I would agree.
 

soxfan121

JAG
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
23,043
[quote name='Merkle's Boner' timestamp='1334668293' post='4067703']
Regardless, the whole episode is not a good sign, and to get he discussion back to Felger and Mazz, I thought their defense of him was over the top. Just them trying to take the contrarian viewpoint as always.
[/quote]

Just so I'm clear - you objected to Valentine's statement and you thought F&M's "defense" of Valentine's statement was "over the top"?

Can you provide some example of how it was "over the top"? Maybe it's just a turn of phrase. But I heard nothing "over the top" - I heard Felger saying "Valentine is right - the players need to be called out" and then slapping Valentine for reversing course and apologizing.

Now, you can certainly disagree that the players need to be called out - personally, I think you're wrong, but whatever - but I'm confused as to what you could appropriately and accurately term as "over the top" in F&M's opinion yesterday.
 

HomeBrew1901

Has Season 1 of "Manimal" on Blu Ray
SoSH Member
About the only thing I found "over the top" about their defense of Valentine was how much time they dedicated to the topic considering that long term it will likely be a non-issue. There are a bunch of other things they could have been discussing but instead focused on this topic for a majority of the show that I got to listen to.
 

dcmissle

Deflatigator
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 4, 2005
28,269
OF COURSE they are going to defend him and spend lots of time doing so.

Bobby V. is an in-shape Rex Ryan in a Canali suit. A gift from the media gods.
 

Rocco Graziosa

owns the lcd soundsystem
SoSH Member
Sep 11, 2002
11,345
Boston MA
OF COURSE they are going to defend him and spend lots of time doing so.

Bobby V. is an in-shape Rex Ryan in a Canali suit. A gift from the media gods.
Yet the strange, and most disturbing development of this young season is that the media seems to be all over Valentine. I have thought one of the biggest reasons ownership brought Valentine in is that they figured the media would love him, his quotes, and brand the Sox in a positive light. The opposite seems to be true and if this team were to stumble to .500 or worse by the all star break I could absolutely see them shit canning him.
 

lostjumper

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 27, 2009
1,279
Concord, NH
So after the Bruins win last night, I was excited to listen to F&M for once as I rarely listen to them anymore. Of course, one minute in Wiggins speaks up and I remember its Wiggy Tuesday. Just terrible and immediately turned off. Maybe EEI will have Edwards on so I can hear some intelligent hockey talk from that station...

Update: On EEI, Ordway is rambling on about Valentine and the issues in the sox club house. Wheres that "beating a dead horse" emoticon when you need it. I guess its back to F&M who are at least talking Hockey and hope that Wiggins stays quiet.
 

lostjumper

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 27, 2009
1,279
Concord, NH
Actually Wiggy isn't that bad about the Bruins. He clearly likes and watches them.
Well, that's more than Mazz does. I'm listening and he's not too bad. I can understand why they have Wiggin's on during the football season, even if I'm not a fan. But being the radio broadcast station for the bruins you would think F&M could get an actual hockey guy on to discuss the bruins.
 

erfus

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 5, 2002
1,595
Well, that's more than Mazz does. I'm listening and he's not too bad. I can understand why they have Wiggin's on during the football season, even if I'm not a fan. But being the radio broadcast station for the bruins you would think F&M could get an actual hockey guy on to discuss the bruins.
It's the luck of the draw sometimes, but isn't Neely on Tuesdays? I think the Sports Hub generally has many guests that can talk hockey knowledgeably...Chiarelli's on the T&R show, I thought Haggs made the rounds on various Hub programs, Goucher and Beers are on frequently, etc. I'd actually rather not hear Edwards talk about anything.
 

TheRealness

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 8, 2006
11,708
The Dirty Shire
It's the luck of the draw sometimes, but isn't Neely on Tuesdays? I think the Sports Hub generally has many guests that can talk hockey knowledgeably...Chiarelli's on the T&R show, I thought Haggs made the rounds on various Hub programs, Goucher and Beers are on frequently, etc. I'd actually rather not hear Edwards talk about anything.
He was shilling so bad for the Bruins last night that, for the first time in forever, I tried to change to to NBCS just so I didn't have to listen to his homerisms.

And Neely should be on F&M in the next 15-30 minutes.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,677
I was listening to F&M for a bit yesterday and the topic (like it was on Monday) was about how they don't understand why fans are siding with the players on the Valentine/Youks thing and as I was listening to it, I was finding myself agreeing with them. Yes, it would be nice to hear a player get ripped after the shit show that was September 2011. Yes, aside from three games, the Sox have been wandering around in a malaise. I was completely buying into what Felger and Mazz were selling.

However, the more I think about it the more I think that F&M are wrong. The fans aren't demanding managerial rips for nothing, they want a bit of substance behind it. This is something that F&M aren't (or don't care to) understanding. I'm not a big Youkilis guy, but I was a bit confused as to why Valentine was ripping HIM at this particular instance. The Sox had won three in a row and while Youks is struggling, it's not a perceived lack of effort. It just seemed hollow and not particularly sincere. That's what I think most fans are pissed about. But F&M are completely missing that point.
 

HomeBrew1901

Has Season 1 of "Manimal" on Blu Ray
SoSH Member
Was it really a rip job though? When you look at the ENTIRE quote it doesn't seem that bad to me:

“I don’t think he’s as physically or emotionally into the game as he has been in the past for some reason,” Valentine said Sunday night.

This is the only line that people are focusing on and in a vacuum it could be seen as a rip if someone wanted to blow it wayyyyyy out of proportion. Everyone knows that Youkilis is an overly sensitive red-ass (remember when he refused to talk to D&C for two years because they said he married up?) and it is easy to get him to respond to stir up controversy.

What everyone seems to be ignoring though is what he said immediately following that comment where he showed that he still had confidence in Youk:

“But [on Saturday] it seemed, you know, he’s seeing the ball well, got those two walks, got his on-base percentage up higher than his batting average, which is always a good thing, and he’ll move on from there,” Valentine said.

I love Pedroia but hate his attitude of "That's not how we do things here and the manager will learn that." That pisses me off because that is how underperforming teams talk when a new manager comes in and they want to keep doing things their way even though their way failed.

Should Valentine have said it? No, probably not, but it isn't as eggregious as many people in the media and here want to make it either.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,989
Deep inside Muppet Labs
Yet the strange, and most disturbing development of this young season is that the media seems to be all over Valentine. I have thought one of the biggest reasons ownership brought Valentine in is that they figured the media would love him, his quotes, and brand the Sox in a positive light. The opposite seems to be true and if this team were to stumble to .500 or worse by the all star break I could absolutely see them shit canning him.
Which media? Cafardo is blowing the guy in the paper every day. Mazz too. It's been embarrassing. Who's killing this guy?
 

Phenom

as if andy gresh and gary tanguay had a baby
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
998
Which media? Cafardo is blowing the guy in the paper every day. Mazz too. It's been embarrassing. Who's killing this guy?
I follow numerous Red Sox writers on Twitter (Ian Browne, Brian MacPherson, McAdam, and others) and all of them have already made more snarky comments on Twitter about Bobby V this season than they did about Francona all of last year.

After Cody Ross slammed his helmet at the end of Monday's game, several writers tweeted out "Ross goes down looking, but new manager must be impressed by his emotion." Also, after Matt Albers retired Evan Longoria in the 9th inning, I believe MacPherson tweeted something along the lines of "shockingly, Albers retires Longoria with runners on base."

I have no problem with beat reporters questioning the manager during the game. It's just odd that this was never done under Francona (unless the standard 5 minute WEEI preamble was read), and happens regularly with Bobby V.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,989
Deep inside Muppet Labs
I follow numerous Red Sox writers on Twitter (Ian Browne, Brian MacPherson, McAdam, and others) and all of them have already made more snarky comments on Twitter about Bobby V this season than they did about Francona all of last year.

After Cody Ross slammed his helmet at the end of Monday's game, several writers tweeted out "Ross goes down looking, but new manager must be impressed by his emotion." Also, after Matt Albers retired Evan Longoria in the 9th inning, I believe MacPherson tweeted something along the lines of "shockingly, Albers retires Longoria with runners on base."

I have no problem with beat reporters questioning the manager during the game. It's just odd that this was never done under Francona (unless the standard 5 minute WEEI preamble was read), and happens regularly with Bobby V.
Those tweets are all fair points. Valentine's got no track record of success in Boston and needs to earn any slack which he might be given. The Ross comments are funny because given Valentine's comments about Youkilis they actually make a pretty decent point.

Seems to me the Sox writers smell BS when they see it. And a lot of us thought his comments on Youkilis were fucktardedly dumb.
 

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
55,585
deep inside Guido territory
This is spot on.

"The ownership have turned the Red Sox into an attraction not a team. Come see the stadium, buy our food, and sing Sweet Caroline. It's not a team, it's an attraction."

A caller also brought up a point that they don't have to win anymore for them to make all of their money. Sad, but true.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,989
Deep inside Muppet Labs
This is spot on.

"The ownership have turned the Red Sox into an attraction not a team. Come see the stadium, buy our food, and sing Sweet Caroline. It's not a team, it's an attraction."

A caller also brought up a point that they don't have to win anymore for them to make all of their money. Sad, but true.
Not indefinitely. They could probably only have one shitty year and still make money. After that the fans will stay home in droves if the team isn't any better. The park prices are too high for anything but a contending team year after year.
 

soxfan121

JAG
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
23,043
This is spot on.

"The ownership have turned the Red Sox into an attraction not a team. Come see the stadium, buy our food, and sing Sweet Caroline. It's not a team, it's an attraction."

A caller also brought up a point that they don't have to win anymore for them to make all of their money. Sad, but true.
It's the Haunted Mansion, with less comfortable seats and a longer line.
 

steveluck7

Member
SoSH Member
May 10, 2007
4,003
Burrillville, RI
Not indefinitely. They could probably only have one shitty year and still make money. After that the fans will stay home in droves if the team isn't any better. The park prices are too high for anything but a contending team year after year.
I wouldn't underestimate the power of the pink hats. I think they have at least 2 subpar seasons before that sect abandons ship. It's simple math, however long of a stretch of success it took for the full on pink hat invasion, it'll take an equally long period of sucking for them to go away.
Until single 20 something women in New England stop thinking that being cool with sports (and particularly the Red Sox) will land them a husband, you can be sure that you'll see plenty of facebook profile pics of 3 blondes cramming into one self shot in the bleachers
 

ForKeeps

New Member
Oct 13, 2011
464
This is spot on.

"The ownership have turned the Red Sox into an attraction not a team. Come see the stadium, buy our food, and sing Sweet Caroline. It's not a team, it's an attraction."
Okay, so these are examples of how they are an attraction (examples that could be used for any franchise in sports, but we'll ignore that for now). None of these are examples of how they are "not a team", which they clearly are. Totally spot on.
 

soxfan121

JAG
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
23,043
Not indefinitely. They could probably only have one shitty year and still make money. After that the fans will stay home in droves if the team isn't any better. The park prices are too high for anything but a contending team year after year.
You and I define "shitty year" in a completely different way that the average fan, though. I have scaled back from 50-75 games a season (2001-2004) to between 3 and 5 games a season (2005-2010) down to 0 games (2011 & 2012). And that has very little to do with the quality of the team and much more to do with life circumstances (no longer in Boston everyday, life changes, financial factors, etc.) But if I won the lottery tomorrow...I wouldn't be buying Sox season tickets (like I would have in the past). And that IS because of the team and ownership.

A losing record this season will NOT affect ticket sales - the Red Sox will still get close to 3M tickets sold in 2012. They will get close to 3M in 2013 even if the team finishes last in 2012. The drop off, when it happens, will come AFTER several consecutive losing seasons. The Red Sox Marketing is that good - they've got "pink hats" coming to see the Historic Landmark, to see Wally, to drink a beer on Yawkey Way while eating a hotdog from RemDawg's and buying a hat and jersey at the pro shop.

It will take a two or more seasons of sucking (i.e. finishing under .500 or last in the division) for the ticket sales to decline. Welcome back my friends, to the show that never ends, come inside, come inside...
 

WinterSoldier

New Member
Jan 29, 2012
25
I wouldn't underestimate the power of the pink hats. I think they have at least 2 subpar seasons before that sect abandons ship. It's simple math, however long of a stretch of success it took for the full on pink hat invasion, it'll take an equally long period of sucking for them to go away.
Until single 20 something women in New England stop thinking that being cool with sports (and particularly the Red Sox) will land them a husband, you can be sure that you'll see plenty of facebook profile pics of 3 blondes cramming into one self shot in the bleachers
Jesus dear Lord. It's like you inserted yourself into my head and saw the world through my eyes. Thank you for acknowledging this. Its worse here in Connecticut. Only it's depending on where you are in the state (northern half or southern half) where you'll find pics of chicks claiming to be "die hard" Sox or Yankees fans.

But to get back on topic, it's a double edged sword that we're dealing with. Drive the pink hats away and so goes the extra revenue generated from the spending on frivilous gimmicks which in turns affects how much money you can spend on free agents. Cater to them and you get more of the ownership's shenanigans where the focus is everything and anything but the product that's out on the field. Question begs one to answer, which scenario would you be comfortable in living with. The risk taker in me longs for the days of the rabid, disgruntled fans of the dark ages so the former is something I'd love to see happen only to see if ownership jumps or navigates through the storm to clearer skies. From the way Felger takes shot at ownership I'd say he would want the pink hats gone too just to see their true committment level to the team.
 

timlinin8th

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 6, 2009
1,521
.
Question begs one to answer, which scenario would you be comfortable in living with.
The answer depends on who you ask. For most people on here who I would believe are more into the sport and 'purity of the game' (basically, that enjoy the traditional aspects of the game) they respond negatively to the course ownership has taken. Like above, back in early 2000s I would attend 30ish games a season, yet now am lucky to attend a single game a season due to life and being priced out of attending that number of games.

However, ask all the Sullys from Reveeah, and they'll tell you they enjoy the current atmosphere of the game, because they get to 'see all sorts of Sawx brawds at the bah'. (it works both ways). Ownership is going to cater to that since casual fans are a replenishable commodity, its steady income. For those of us who enjoyed it the other way, well, we can pine for it all we want but this change was inevitable and isnt going away.
 

gmogmo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
769
Hingham, Ma
I can't wait to get Felger and Mazz's take on this circus....I have to admit, the music is making me homicidal, or more directly the thought of Werner and Steinberg smiling thinking they've put together some sort of a magical production is.
 

PedroSpecialK

Comes at you like a tornado of hair and the NHL sa
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2004
27,169
Cambridge, MA
Felger right on ripping Marchand for his dive.

Here comes the Red Sox talk - beautifully segued by discussing how tough the Sox are and how much they emulate Patrice Bergeron :lol:
 

PedroSpecialK

Comes at you like a tornado of hair and the NHL sa
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2004
27,169
Cambridge, MA
Oh my god. The use of the NHL's sound effect at the beginning/end of the suspension videos.

I am crying.

Now calling out Kevin Paul Dupont for being an opportunistic hack. They're on point this afternoon.
 

mabrowndog

Ask me about total zone...or paint
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2003
39,676
Falmouth, MA
Oh my god. The use of the NHL's sound effect at the beginning/end of the suspension videos.

I am crying.

Now calling out Kevin Paul Dupont for being an opportunistic hack. They're on point this afternoon.
I really enjoyed Mad Dog's sound byte the best of them all. Love his speech impediment and miss his days with Mike Francesa.
Stellar stuff on all three counts.