Everything Zen: 2023 Michigan Football

[CFB_Rules]

1-4-10 is the relevant rule here by the way, and it's pretty succinct:

"Players may not be equipped with any electronic, mechanical or other signal devices for the purpose of communicating with any source"

 

[Average Reds]

I love how the solution to Michigan breaking a clearly defined 30-year old rule is to dissolve the NCAA .

I've been saying that the NCAA needs significant reform for a hell of a lot longer than a decade. For reasons that have nothing to do with Michigan.

Honestly, it's this kind of trolling post that keeps me quiet most of the time now. After a specific event/news, people decide to wander over to a team thread and engage in some context-free shadenfruede. Hope you enjoyed it

Ugh, one set of rules please. Imagine how annoying it would be to referee a D2 game one weekend and a D1 game the next, and having two different sets of rules for each. Nevermind when a D2 school plays a D1 school, which set do you use? The 1 rulebook we have is hard enough.

Right, but the NCAA is resisting the simple solution, which is to allow (but not mandate) the use of headphones between QBs and offensive coordinators.

 

[Awesome Fossum]

Honestly, it's this kind of trolling post that keeps me quiet most of the time now. After a specific event/news, people decide to wander over to a team thread and engage in some context-free shadenfruede. Hope you enjoyed it

I was trying to be funny, and my attitude toward college football is definitely to find the humor in all of its absurdities, but I wasn't intending to aggravate or troll you. Apologies.

Right, but the NCAA is resisting the simple solution, which is to allow (but not mandate) the use of headphones between QBs and offensive coordinators.

How is that more simple than the rule against advance in-person scouting?

 

[CFB_Rules]

Right, but the NCAA is resisting the simple solution, which is to allow (but not mandate) the use of headphones between QBs and offensive coordinators.

It might be awhile...I mean, tablets and computers are still banned on the sideline AND the press box after all.

 

[cornwalls@6]

The bolded is a great argument for the NCAA being substantially reformed or dissolved and replaced by something else.

The idea that D1 football is being held back on implementing a much easier system of transmitting signals because of the purity myth of Amos Alonzo Stagg (to cite one example) is mind-numbingly stupid.

Exactly. And it is doubly absurd that they are held back from embracing the same technology the NFL has had in use since 1994, because we still have to pretend that Amherst and Williams are involved in the same enterprise as Michigan and Alabama are.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

The bolded is a great argument for the NCAA being substantially reformed or dissolved and replaced by something else.

The idea that D1 football is being held back on implementing a much easier system of transmitting signals because of the purity myth of Amos Alonzo Stagg (to cite one example) is mind-numbingly stupid.

Soccer fans will kind of appreciate this dynamic. For the longest time, FIFA had this romantic view that the laws of the game should be exactly the same in the champions league final as in a Sunday rec game, and that was one of the justifications given for (for example) not having goal-line technology. Then it hit a critical mass where they actually worried that being able to see on tv that a ball crossed the line but not calling it might affect the bottom line, and romanticism was not so important any longer.

We shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I appreciate our resident ref's concern that it will be hard for officials to call different divisions differently, but I think my main reaction to that is suck it up, buttercup. This isn't about you. :0) (Said with love.) Obviously, if officiating difficulties creates an untenable situation that makes the downsides outweigh the benefits, then it's not good. But Michigan v. Alabama is barely even college football. It shouldn't be played using 1998 technology.

 

[Average Reds]

It’s worth noting that the source of the information being leaked about Michigan may have been identified by John U. Bacon. For those who don’t know, Bacon is a very plugged-in reporter who has covered sports at the University of Michigan (and MSU) for decades.

This is so bizarre to me that it’s difficult to even type out. But here goes:

There is an individual named Jim Stapleton who has been a booster at Michigan for years. Back in 2010, he was accused of undermining/sabotaging Rich Rodriguez, leading to his firing. Stapleton denied the allegations, but the University apparently believed that he had acted unethically, as they revoked his sideline access and put him on ice as a booster. In late 2014, he involved himself (again) in the search for a new Michigan head coach and pushed hard for his guy (Ron English, who had been head coach at Eastern Michigan, where Stapleton served on the board of regents) to be named coach of Michigan. Instead, Harbaugh was hired and Stapleton subsequently developed an unhealthy level of hatred/resentment for Harbaugh.

Stapleton is also a part of the ownership group for the Minnesota Vikings. It was reported that, in 2022, he exacted “revenge” on Harbaugh by allowing him to fly to Minnesota for an interview that was seen as a formality - because the new GM clearly wanted Harbaugh - and then refusing to allow the offer to be made.

Now, one might reasonably ask what any of this has to do with the current situation?

The answer is that Jim Stapleton - despite being persona non grata at Michigan - somehow, inexplicably, managed to get himself appointed to the Committee on Infractions at the NCAA. And, yes, he was a member when the Committee on Infractions recently rejected the negotiated agreement between Michigan and the NCAA regarding technical infractions committed during the pandemic. According to Bacon, he is also the individual who has been selectively leaking details of this sordid episode to the press.

https://awfulannouncing.com/college-football/michigan-booster-jim-harbaugh-leaking-sign-stealing-scandal.html

Now, if Michigan did, in fact, authorize a staffer to attend games and videotape signals, they will deserve their fate. It’s still absolutely incredible to me that the NCAA would (1) allow someone like Stapleton - a man who was forced to distance himself from a University because he used his influence to sabotoage a coach - to be on the Committee on Infractions, and (2) allow him to hear cases involving that same University, when he has a well-established bias against the current coach. And yet, here we are.

But yeah, the NCAA is all about the integrity of the student athlete.

 

[CFB_Rules]

Soccer fans will kind of appreciate this dynamic. For the longest time, FIFA had this romantic view that the laws of the game should be exactly the same in the champions league final as in a Sunday rec game, and that was one of the justifications given for (for example) not having goal-line technology. Then it hit a critical mass where they actually worried that being able to see on tv that a ball crossed the line but not calling it might affect the bottom line, and romanticism was not so important any longer.

We shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I appreciate our resident ref's concern that it will be hard for officials to call different divisions differently, but I think my main reaction to that is suck it up, buttercup. This isn't about you. :0) (Said with love.) Obviously, if officiating difficulties creates an untenable situation that makes the downsides outweigh the benefits, then it's not good. But Michigan v. Alabama is barely even college football. It shouldn't be played using 1998 technology.

Yeah it's basically the same thing as FIFA. Romantic view of the game. They could do it, but I don't think there is any kind of push to change the rule. Maybe there will be now.

 

[soxhop411]

The Washington Post has more

The sign-stealing investigation threatening to disrupt Michigan’s football season began after an outside investigative firm approached the NCAA with documents and videos the firm said it had obtained from computer drives maintained and accessed by multiple Michigan coaches, according to two people familiar with the matter, evidence that suggests the scandal’s impact could broaden beyond the suspension of one low-level assistant.
These people spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak about an ongoing NCAA investigation. They did not disclose who hired the outside firm that approached the NCAA. The NCAA, the Big Ten and Michigan declined to comment.

Last week, the Big Ten confirmed published reports that the NCAA was investigating allegations that Michigan had sent people connected to its football program to attend games of opponents and videotape coaches as they signaled in plays, in violation of the rules that govern college football. Michigan suspended Connor Stalions, a football assistant ESPN reported was suspected of overseeing the alleged sign-stealing operation. Coach Jim Harbaugh, in a statement, denied any knowledge of or involvement in any such scheme.

Stalions played a major role in overseeing and coordinating sign-stealing efforts, the outside investigation found, but the firm’s evidence suggested he wasn’t acting alone. The outside firm did not present any evidence directly linking Harbaugh to the sign-stealing operation, according to the people with knowledge. In the days since Stalions’s name circulated as a key figure in the investigation, videos and photos circulated on social media taken during Michigan games showing him standing near coaches, including the team’s defensive and co-offensive coordinators.

Among the pieces of evidence the firm presented, these people said, was a detailed schedule of Michigan’s planned sign-stealing travel for the rest of this season, listing opponents’ schedules, which games Michigan scouts would attend, and how much money was budgeted for travel and tickets to scout each team.

The opponents targeted the most on this schedule, these people said, were not surprising. Atop the list was Ohio State, Michigan’s top rival in the Big Ten, and scouts planned to attend as many as eight games, costing more than $3,000 in travel and tickets. Next on the list was Georgia, a potential Michigan opponent in the College Football Playoff, with four or five games scheduled for in-person scouting and video-recording, also costing more than $3,000 in travel and tickets.

In total, these people said, Michigan’s sign-stealing operation expected to spend more than $15,000 this season sending scouts to more than 40 games played by 10 opponents. According to the university’s public salary disclosure records, Stalions, listed as an administrative specialist in the athletics department, made $55,000 in 2022.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/10/25/michigan-computers-sign-stealing-evidence/

 

[Humphrey]

It’s worth noting that the source of the information being leaked about Michigan may have been identified by John U. Bacon. For those who don’t know, Bacon is a very plugged-in reporter who has covered sports at the University of Michigan (and MSU) for decades.

This is so bizarre to me that it’s difficult to even type out. But here goes:

There is an individual named Jim Stapleton who has been a booster at Michigan for years. Back in 2010, he was accused of undermining/sabotaging Rich Rodriguez, leading to his firing. Stapleton denied the allegations, but the University apparently believed that he had acted unethically, as they revoked his sideline access and put him on ice as a booster. In late 2014, he involved himself (again) in the search for a new Michigan head coach and pushed hard for his guy (Ron English, who had been head coach at Eastern Michigan, where Stapleton served on the board of regents) to be named coach of Michigan. Instead, Harbaugh was hired and Stapleton subsequently developed an unhealthy level of hatred/resentment for Harbaugh.

Stapleton is also a part of the ownership group for the Minnesota Vikings. It was reported that, in 2022, he exacted “revenge” on Harbaugh by allowing him to fly to Minnesota for an interview that was seen as a formality - because the new GM clearly wanted Harbaugh - and then refusing to allow the offer to be made.

Now, one might reasonably ask what any of this has to do with the current situation?

The answer is that Jim Stapleton - despite being persona non grata at Michigan - somehow, inexplicably, managed to get himself appointed to the Committee on Infractions at the NCAA. And, yes, he was a member when the Committee on Infractions recently rejected the negotiated agreement between Michigan and the NCAA regarding technical infractions committed during the pandemic. According to Bacon, he is also the individual who has been selectively leaking details of this sordid episode to the press.

https://awfulannouncing.com/college-football/michigan-booster-jim-harbaugh-leaking-sign-stealing-scandal.html

Now, if Michigan did, in fact, authorize a staffer to attend games and videotape signals, they will deserve their fate. It’s still absolutely incredible to me that the NCAA would (1) allow someone like Stapleton - a man who was forced to distance himself from a University because he used his influence to sabotoage a coach - to be on the Committee on Infractions, and (2) allow him to hear cases involving that same University, when he has a well-established bias against the current coach. And yet, here we are.

But yeah, the NCAA is all about the integrity of the student athlete.

Quite by coincidence, I picked up Bacon's book on the Rodriguez years at Michigan (Three and Out) a week ago. Halfway done. Amazing how many petty people involved in RRod's demise, at least that's the way I see it so far. Perhaps the most prominent was Lloyd Carr.

 

[Zososoxfan]

For anyone who wants to nerd out on the rules perspective on this (I think the result is much more likely to depend on how the NCAA and its infractions committee views their leverage vis-a-vis schools, broadcasters, etc. but I digress), there was an interest post on a Michigan blog about the technical aspects of the situation:

1. Introduction/High-Level Takeaways

The NCAA might not be on Michigan’s side when it comes to the current allegations about sign stealing, but its rules and bylaws are. This diary is about to get long, so here are the high-level takeaways:

• There is no rule against sign stealing as such.
• The rule that forbids recording an opponent’s signals only applies to a team when it’s on a field for a game.
• A football program can hire third parties to scout future opponents in person.
• Seth and the poster who goes by Ghost of Fritz Crisler found the most important points below.

Okay, let’s go through Michigan’s supposed rules violations.

1. The Rule that Categorically Prohibits Sign Stealing

There is no such rule. You can steal signs in at least some circumstances.

1. Rule 1-11-h of the NCAA Football 2023 Rules Book

It says this:

Any attempt to record, either through audio or video means, any signals given by an opposing player, coach or other team personnel is prohibited.

That seems cut and dried, but it cannot be read alone. As a preliminary matter, it’s worth noting that Rule 1-11-h is part of Rule 1, which is titled The Game, Field, Players, and Equipment. Next, per Rule 1-6-b, the Rules Book—the entire thing—applies to the following:

Everyone in the team area, players, substitutes, replaced players, coaches, athletics trainers, cheerleaders, band members, mascots [!], public-address announcers, audio/video/lighting system operators, and other persons affiliated with the teams or institutions.

In case there is any confusion about what the above means by “the teams,” Rule 1-1-1-a tells us that “(t)he game shall be played between two teams of not more than 11 players each…” So, we’re talking about the two teams that are playing a given game, not all D-1 football teams everywhere. And, for the rules to apply to a person, that person must be affiliated with the teams playing the game and in the “team area.”

What is the “team area”? Rule 1-2-4-a defines it as being “(o)n each side of the field” in the back of a “limit line” (I won’t subject you to that definition) and between the 20-yard lines. The major point is that it is to the sides of a football field where the two teams play. Thus, to be subject to Rule 1-11-h, you have to be on the side of a field. People who are watching games from the stands are not that.

1. 2022-2023 NCAA Division 1 Manual Bylaw 11.6.1

Okay, let’s move onto the big one. Bylaw 11.6.1 says this:

Off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited, except as provided in Bylaws 11.6.1.1 and 11.6.1.2 [these two exceptions aren’t relevant].

We don’t have the nice, clean explanation of whom the Bylaws apply to that we had in the Football Rules Book. But Article 11 of the Bylaws, of which 11.6.1 is a part, is titled Conduct and Employment of Athletics Personnel. More, in Bylaw 11.1.1, we’re told that “Institutional staff members found in violation of NCAA regulations shall be subject to disciplinary or corrective action…” Also, we have common sense to tell us that the NCAA cannot mean 11.6.1 to apply to all humans everywhere. If nothing else, the average fan does not have “future opponents.” It seems safe to say, then, that the rule applies on its face to employees of athletic departments (or schools, if you like). If you think there is ambiguity there, however, we go to our next point.

And here is where we encounter what Ghost of Fritz found and the biggest point of confusion: typically, we’d be correct to think that you cannot absolve yourself of punishment for a prohibited act by paying someone else to do it. Agency liability and criminal conspiracy charges come to mind. But that logic just doesn’t seem to apply here.

Prior to August 2013, Bylaw 11.6.1 prohibited schools from off-campus, in-person scouting of opponents for football, basketball, and women’s volleyball—but not for other sports. This was balanced out to some extent thanks to then-Bylaw 11.6.2, which said that football, basketball, and women’s volleyball enjoyed a carve-out from the following prohibition:

…a member institution shall not pay or permit the payment of expenses incurred by its athletics department staff members or representatives (including professional scouting services) to scout its opponents or individuals who represent its opponents…

In other words, you couldn’t scout an opponent in person for your football, basketball, and women’s volleyball teams, but you could pay “representatives” to scout opponents for those sports.

Then, in August 2013, the NCAA changed the rule and prohibited off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) for all sports but balanced that by completely discarding the prohibition against paying for scouting. In doing so, it published the following rationale:

In the interest of simplicity and consistency, it is appropriate for one rule regarding scouting to apply to all sports. In most cases, video of future opponents is readily available either through institutional exchange, subscription to a recording/dubbing service or internet sites accessible to the general public.

There is only one reasonable interpretation of what happened in August 2013 when the rule was changed: schools could pay for scouting services for football before the rule changed and can still do so now (the rule hasn’t been amended since). It would make absolutely no sense to repeal the rule that banned payment for scouting for most non-football sports as a way of banning payment for scouting for football. The explicit rationale for the rule change also wouldn’t make sense. Accordingly, schools can pay third parties to scout opponents.

Let me say this in a different way: there is only ambiguity in 11.6.1 if you’re not convinced by its text that it only applies to school employees. And the legislative history of the rule makes clear that you should be convinced of that. As seen in 11.6.1 prior to August 2013, the NCAA knew what to say to ban third-party scouting. And, rather than applying that to football, the NCAA did away with that ban for all sports.

1. The Rule Against Hiring Third Parties to Scout & Record Opponents in Person to Steal Signs

You can steal signs. You can hire third parties to scout opponents in person. You can record opponents’ signals if you’re not on a football field playing against them. There is no rule suggesting that combining these things makes them a collective rules violation.

LINK

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Someone hired a firm to blow the whistle? That’s crazy. Supports the Bacon theory. Or a rival with access.

 

[B H Kim]

For anyone who wants to nerd out on the rules perspective on this (I think the result is much more likely to depend on how the NCAA and its infractions committee views their leverage vis-a-vis schools, broadcasters, etc. but I digress), there was an interest post on a Michigan blog about the technical aspects of the situation:



LINK

The linked article is pretty embarrassing.

The argument about the prohibition on hiring third parties to scout is nonsensical. That language only applied before 2013 for sports other than football, basketball and volleyball. Those other sports were not subject to the broader ban on any in-person scouting that applied to football, basketball and volleyball. The specific language prohibiting any expenses or payments for scouting for those other sports wasn’t a “carve out” for football, basketball and volleyball. It was one limited part of the broader ban that applied to those other sports.

When they extended the overall ban to all sports in 2013, the more limited ban on hiring third parties for other sports became unnecessary. The current ban pretty clearly includes a ban on hiring third parties to scout.

FYI, here is the 2013 rule amendment: https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/proposalView?id=3017

EDIT: He's also misreading the language about the scope of people to whom the rules apply. "Everyone in the team area" isn't a limitation that applies to everyone else listed. It's simply one among many categories of covered individuals. (The inclusion of "public-address announcers" makes that clear. ) The rules apply to "other persons affiliated with the team or institution" and "coaches," even if they are not in the team area.

 

[canderson]

FBI involved in the Weiss computer case. Form pose have been working with them for months.

What’s the opposite of zen?

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/wolverines/2023/10/26/michigan-football-matt-weiss-um-police-fbi-computer-investigation/71332666007/

 

[thehitcat]

Heading to the Big House for a game for the first time since 2002. Taking my nephew as his graduation present. Can't wait to get back to AA and hit some of the old haunts. Anything unmissable from folks who have been there more recently? We already plan to do Zingerman's and Blimpy Burger for a couple of lunches. Also we're going to Crisler Friday night for Men's Hoops and the alumni tour of the Stadium and Schembechler Hall on Sunday before we fly home.

 

[Average Reds]

Angelo’s and/or the Northside Grill would be my recommendations for breakfast/lunch. We defaulted to the Northside Grill last time because Angelo’s was impossible to get into. That said, there are so many great places in town now that it’s hard to go wrong.

My only caveat is that - as always - the experience is heavily weather dependent. If you get a warm fall, day, exploring Ann Arbor is a delight. Less so with cold and rain. (Insert Captain Obvious emoji.)

I’ll think about some other places and send a PM if anything pops.

 

[thehitcat]

Good point on the weather. Looks pretty good for the weekend but these things change and it's a night game so we'll be dressed appropriately for the cold. Just hoping it stays dry. Thanks for the breakfast rec's we hadn't done much there yet. And since we're flying Thursday morning we'll need good places for a couple of days. Sad that Red Hot Lovers is gone.

 

[Awesome Fossum]

I just listened to "The Navy Football Podcast." Stalions came up, as he was a Naval Academy student and volunteer assistant with the football program. The hosts said from personal experience and from talking to people who knew him at the Academy, 1) he was always much more focused on Michigan, even then, and 2) he was a weird guy. Makes me even more inclined to think that this started from the bottom and bubbled up rather something instituted from the top down.

 

[RedOctober3829]

The linked article is pretty embarrassing.

The argument about the prohibition on hiring third parties to scout is nonsensical. That language only applied before 2013 for sports other than football, basketball and volleyball. Those other sports were not subject to the broader ban on any in-person scouting that applied to football, basketball and volleyball. The specific language prohibiting any expenses or payments for scouting for those other sports wasn’t a “carve out” for football, basketball and volleyball. It was one limited part of the broader ban that applied to those other sports.

When they extended the overall ban to all sports in 2013, the more limited ban on hiring third parties for other sports became unnecessary. The current ban pretty clearly includes a ban on hiring third parties to scout.

FYI, here is the 2013 rule amendment: https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/proposalView?id=3017

EDIT: He's also misreading the language about the scope of people to whom the rules apply. "Everyone in the team area" isn't a limitation that applies to everyone else listed. It's simply one among many categories of covered individuals. (The inclusion of "public-address announcers" makes that clear. ) The rules apply to "other persons affiliated with the team or institution" and "coaches," even if they are not in the team area.

Yeah it’s pretty embarrassing the length michigan fans are going to defend this.

 

[soxhop411]

View: https://twitter.com/ChrisVannini/status/1719446799855829249


There are sooo many layers to this story there is a 10000%chance this will be made into a movie

 

[kenneycb]

Yeah it’s pretty embarrassing the length michigan fans are going to defend this.

So the same thing everyone says about Patriots fans?

 

[Eric1984]

Angelo’s and/or the Northside Grill would be my recommendations for breakfast/lunch. We defaulted to the Northside Grill last time because Angelo’s was impossible to get into. That said, there are so many great places in town now that it’s hard to go wrong.

My only caveat is that - as always - the experience is heavily weather dependent. If you get a warm fall, day, exploring Ann Arbor is a delight. Less so with cold and rain. (Insert Captain Obvious emoji.)

I’ll think about some other places and send a PM if anything pops.

I only made it to Angelo's once during my 4 years on campus. But now is the time to go because from what I understand, they're closing in December. Funny thing is I thought it was a good breakfast -- french toast was excellent -- but it didn't really live up to the hype. And I always found Zingerman's to be kind of an overrated, overpriced tourist trap. They make a decent sandwich -- don't get me wrong -- but it was certainly never a go-to. More of a place you'd go when other people were visiting who wanted to check it out.

 

[Sille Skrub]

How did people not realize some stranger was on the sidelines?

I get that they can be chaotic, but not one person was like "wtf is this guy?"

 

[dhappy42]

How did people not realize some stranger was on the sidelines?

I get that they can be chaotic, but not one person was like "wtf is this guy?"

Maybe Stalions was on the CMU sideline actively stealing MSU signs for the CMU coaches. CMU’s head coach and DB coach used to be Michigan coaches. In-game sign stealing is legal.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Conor Stalions has been fired per Dan Wetzel. This comes after the Big Ten commissioner met with Michigan officials today. Pete Thamel on SC speculated the big ten may suspend Jim Harbaugh. With this and the other ncaa investigation that got him suspended earlier this year, they really should think about firing him.

 

[JCizzle]

Conor Stalions has been fired per Dan Wetzel. This comes after the Big Ten commissioner met with Michigan officials today. Pete Thamel on SC speculated the big ten may suspend Jim Harbaugh. With this and the other ncaa investigation that got him suspended earlier this year, they really should think about firing him.

Are we really that far removed from Urban Meyer’s Florida program that this deserves a firing? Times sure have changed. I’m guessing most of the college coaches that were around pre-NIL are chuckling at this when not on a call with their commissioners.

 

[BigJimEd]

Stations "resigned" according to University statement. Refused to cooperate with University of NCAA officials.

Big Ten had a league call. Coaches reportedly urged conference to act now. No need to wait. Of course, they aren't the most impartial but obviously aren't worried about any precedent.

Michigan reportedly stopped ongoing extension talk with Harbaugh and pulled their latest offer. They could easily resume later though.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Do you think the suspension is due to Harbaugh allegedly lying to investigators? Because I think that's a load of shit too.

Man, even for a SoSH football forum, this post regarding ethics aged terribly.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Honestly, it's this kind of trolling post that keeps me quiet most of the time now.

This is legitimately hilarious and points to the worst of this site. "I don't like being called on my bullshit" would be a better framing and remove you of your burden being a "victim" - a trait not isolated to you in the football forums, but this serves as good microcosm.

Jim Tressel ran a program that won a ton but broke rules. He was fired. I accept that and don't whine. Be more like me.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Regardless of your thoughts on the NCAA, etc, I think everyone agrees that what happens at 0:47 of this video is exactly the opposite of what sports are about, and that this is bold faced cheating. This is not coaches or players reacting to a set, or a substitution, they immediately react to a signal on the first drive of the game. These players and the coaches should be ashamed.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTYeooxrEz4

 

[Zososoxfan]

Regardless of your thoughts on the NCAA, etc, I think everyone agrees that what happens at 0:47 of this video is exactly the opposite of what sports are about, and that this is bold faced cheating. This is not coaches or players reacting to a set, or a substitution, they immediately react to a signal on the first drive of the game. These players and the coaches should be ashamed.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTYeooxrEz4

I know that you enjoy trolling Michigan fans here, but like what's your point here? Stallions reads the sign, says pass just before the snap (as do a ton of players and other personnel on the sideline), and the result is...a 4-yard TD. Huge competitive advantage there, huh? As has already been said ad nauseum, teams can always switch to wristbands, and if the NCAA cared about this stuff then they could switch to microphone-enabled helmets like the NFL and HS football!

Moreover, a bunch of players and coaches have come out and said they've caught Michigan's signals over the year too. Wisconsin and OSU specifically said they've figured them out in the past, as did LSU-Clemson in the NT game a few years back as I posted in the ESPN article upthread.

If what Michigan did went beyond the pale, then the investigation and its eventual findings should lay that out clearly. It also remains to be proven that the coaches requested Stallions do this and that they were receiving the information he collected. Until then, this sounds like a whole bunch of coaches of programs that can't crack Michigan lately whinging.

More importantly, I'm just excited that Michigan has a real opponent this weekend. This season has been fun, but also lacking any drama. Like, I make sure to watch the first halves of games because the second halves are snoozefests.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

I know that you enjoy trolling Michigan fans here, but like what's your point here? Stallions reads the sign, says pass just before the snap (as do a ton of players and other personnel on the sideline), and the result is...a 4-yard TD. Huge competitive advantage there, huh? As has already been said ad nauseum, teams can always switch to wristbands, and if the NCAA cared about this stuff then they could switch to microphone-enabled helmets like the NFL and HS football!

Moreover, a bunch of players and coaches have come out and said they've caught Michigan's signals over the year too. Wisconsin and OSU specifically said they've figured them out in the past, as did LSU-Clemson in the NT game a few years back as I posted in the ESPN article upthread.

If what Michigan did went beyond the pale, then the investigation and its eventual findings should lay that out clearly. It also remains to be proven that the coaches requested Stallions do this and that they were receiving the information he collected. Until then, this sounds like a whole bunch of coaches of programs that can't crack Michigan lately whinging.

More importantly, I'm just excited that Michigan has a real opponent this weekend. This season has been fun, but also lacking any drama. Like, I make sure to watch the first halves of games because the second halves are snoozefests.

If you view being called on your bullshit "trolling," then sure. And I assume from your obtuse statement regarding one play that you seem to assume that this cheating was limited to one play. Let me turn a light on for you - it was every play. If I hurt your brain dropping that knowledge then so be it.

As far as "The NCAA caring about this stuff" it is part of the rules of the game. You play by them or you don't. And "catching" a random signal is very different from the systematic cheating that is happening here. Do you really believe that Stalions' work is not sanctioned by the coaches????? Why is he on the sidelines with a card and standing next to the coordinators and the HC????

You got caught cheating. Your wins are garbage, your program is trash.

 

[Zososoxfan]

If you view being called on your bullshit "trolling," then sure. And I assume from your obtuse statement regarding one play that you seem to assume that this cheating was limited to one play. Let me turn a light on for you - it was every play. If I hurt your brain dropping that knowledge then so be it.

As far as "The NCAA caring about this stuff" it is part of the rules of the game. You play by them or you don't. And "catching" a random signal is very different from the systematic cheating that is happening here. Do you really believe that Stalions' work is not sanctioned by the coaches????? Why is he on the sidelines with a card and standing next to the coordinators and the HC????

You got caught cheating. Your wins are garbage, your program is trash.

Yes, you're totally correct that my brain is completely debilitated by the fact that cheating may have occurred on more than one play. FOH. This is why this will be my last message in response to your crap.

I responded to your clip because you posted it as evidence of something that is totally against the spirit of the game and I strongly disagree. Having guys on the sideline trying to decode signals is literally part of the game--nothing in that clip is against the rules. Rather, it was Stallions scouting teams ahead of their scheduled game against Michigan that's in question.

Stallions can be on the sideline and standing next to coaches but his illegal behavior might still not be sanctioned by them. DOES THAT HURT YOUR BRAIN?!? Once again, F. O. H.

And finally, I do think the competitive advantage needs to be part of the discussion. We have numerous other more significant violations with much more direct competitive advantages gleaned, that the NCAA has been blasé about (e.g., Tennessee and OSU recruiting violations). So everyone clutching their pearls about this seems pathetic.

 

[Awesome Fossum]

I mean, that Tennessee did something wrong doesn't make it right. That the benefit is arguably limited doesn't make it right. That maybe Harbaugh didn't know exactly what was happening doesn't make it right. That the NCAA doesn't allow headsets doesn't make it right.

Waiting for the investigation to play out is all fine and good, but as it stands, Michigan looks very clearly in the wrong. Trying to distract with all this other stuff and then calling everyone else trolls and pearl clutchers for not buying it is what comes across as pathetic.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

Yes, you're totally correct that my brain is completely debilitated by the fact that cheating may have occurred on more than one play. FOH. This is why this will be my last message in response to your crap.

I responded to your clip because you posted it as evidence of something that is totally against the spirit of the game and I strongly disagree. Having guys on the sideline trying to decode signals is literally part of the game--nothing in that clip is against the rules. Rather, it was Stallions scouting teams ahead of their scheduled game against Michigan that's in question.

Stallions can be on the sideline and standing next to coaches but his illegal behavior might still not be sanctioned by them. DOES THAT HURT YOUR BRAIN?!? Once again, F. O. H.

And finally, I do think the competitive advantage needs to be part of the discussion. We have numerous other more significant violations with much more direct competitive advantages gleaned, that the NCAA has been blasé about (e.g., Tennessee and OSU recruiting violations). So everyone clutching their pearls about this seems pathetic.

It can be your last message, your position as a fuckwit on this is pretty solidly secured.

It is wholly against the spirit of the game to be able to read a football sideline signal with any form of confidence in the first series. As the game progresses it is possible that you might figure out a signal or two, but what you are observing in the tape is clearly the result of a systematic process for stealing signals prior to the game, and that is being used as a primary tool to guide the defense. That you don't understand that shows that you have literally no experience playing or coaching the sport. I love how you tough guy the "F.O.H" while acting like a little bitch. I literally laughed out loud at you.

In his stated, official role with the program it is impossible for him to be standing next to a coach or coordinator for any reason other than to perform the actions of which the program is accused. That you think that he can again reflects how divorced from reality you have gotten on this matter.

Oh yes, the old "Well everyone else cheats more!!!!" Pathetic. Like I said to another poster, Jim Tressel got fired for what many feel were minor violations within the program. I knew Tressel personally from his connections to Baldwin-Wallace and Youngstown State, and obviously loved his work at tOSU. But he broke the rules and I accepted that. Be more like me and less like you.

 

[Rick Burlesons Yam Bag]

I mean, that Tennessee did something wrong doesn't make it right. That the benefit is arguably limited doesn't make it right. That maybe Harbaugh didn't know exactly what was happening doesn't make it right. That the NCAA doesn't allow headsets doesn't make it right.

Waiting for the investigation to play out is all fine and good, but as it stands, Michigan looks very clearly in the wrong. Trying to distract with all this other stuff and then calling everyone else trolls and pearl clutchers for not buying it is what comes across as pathetic.

This guy gets it.

 

[Zososoxfan]

Presented without comment, From the AP:

A former employee at a Big Ten football program said Monday it was his job to steal signs and he was given details from multiple conference schools before his team played Michigan to compile a spreadsheet of play-calling signals used by the Wolverines last year.

He spoke with The Associated Press on condition of anonymity, fearing the disclosures could impact his coaching career.

The employee said he shared with Michigan the documents, which showed the Wolverines’ signs and corresponding plays, after his school faced the Jim Harbaugh-led program in 2022.

The person also passed along screenshots of text-message exchanges with staffers from a handful of Big Ten football teams with Michigan, giving the program proof that other conference teams were colluding to steal signs from the Wolverines.

He said he gave the additional details to Michigan last week because he hoped it would help Harbaugh’s embattled program, adding he believes the head coach and his assistants are being unfairly blamed for the actions of a rogue staffer.

The alleged actions by Michigan’s opponents potentially violate the Big Ten’s sportsmanship policy, which is being used as the basis of the conference’s case against Michigan.
...
The former Big Ten program employee told AP he had no knowledge that any of the material he received was gathered in violation of the rules. The documents he provided to Michigan were shared along with other material with the Big Ten on Friday, according to a person familiar with the situation speaking on condition of anonymity because they weren’t authorized to share the details.
...
Through his attorney, Stalions said that to his knowledge none of the Michigan coaches told anyone to break rules or were aware of improper conduct when it came to advance scouting.

 

[dhappy42]

Presented without comment, From the AP:

How is this a violation of the in-person scouting rule?

 

[Zososoxfan]

How is this a violation of the in-person scouting rule?

That article doesn't address that specifically, but this follow-up from ESPN alludes to it without confirming:

The two Michigan signal breakdowns include sections devoted to deciphering the boards held up by staffers with images on them, lengthy lists describing hand signals for running plays, slightly shorter lists for passing plays and separate lists describing signals for play-action passes or bootleg plays. One of the documents also includes a section devoted to signals gathered during a 2022 game against the Wolverines, and both documents include a “2020 Game” heading, followed by a short rundown of signals ostensibly deciphered during a game that year.

LINK

TBF, the article then adds this later on, which casts doubt on whether the signals were obtained through advanced live scouting:

Michigan is also likely to argue that there is a distinction without a true difference between what Stalions is accused of doing and what other Big Ten schools did in forwarding their scouting to a future opponent.

On its own though, the AP story shows that the sign-stealing subterfuge seems prevalent and coaches/staffers will violate rules, or the spirit thereof, in doing so.

 

[mauf]

My understanding is that in-person scouting is a no-no at every level of football other than the NFL. It’s not like Michigan broke an obscure rule here.

The lack of outcry from other coaches suggests (to me, anyway) that other teams are also pushing the envelope in this area; they probably weren’t as brazen as Michigan, but they don’t want to invite scrutiny of their own programs by dragging Michigan publicly.

In terms of damage to the integrity of competition, it feels like this scandal falls somewhere between Spygate and the Astros stealing signs (worse than the former, not as bad as the latter).

 

[dhappy42]

FWIW:
Big Ten's Tony Petiti was informed today that the two programs which fed Purdue Michigan's signals before the 2022 BT title game were Rutgers and OSU. Not clear if rules broken, doesn't directly affect UM's situation, but raises question re: relative competitive advantage.
View: https://twitter.com/johnubacon/status/1721983221171421455?s=46&t=91l6w1F2fA35cTXyKhOPIw

 

[RedOctober3829]

Presented without comment, From the AP:

Does it say they gained the signals by tape/TV copy or in-person? If it’s not in person, this story means nothing.

 

[RedOctober3829]

FWIW:
Big Ten's Tony Petiti was informed today that the two programs which fed Purdue Michigan's signals before the 2022 BT title game were Rutgers and OSU. Not clear if rules broken, doesn't directly affect UM's situation, but raises question re: relative competitive advantage.
View: https://twitter.com/johnubacon/status/1721983221171421455?s=46&t=91l6w1F2fA35cTXyKhOPIw

This means nothing too. Coaches talk to each other all the time.

 

[dhappy42]

This means nothing too. Coaches talk to each other all the time.

I’m not so sure. Coaches advanced scouting for each other seems to me almost as problematic, fairness-wise, as random fans advanced scouting, whether or not it’s a technical violation of NCAA rules. Maybe worse because coaches are experts and the collusion aspect of it. It’s not just coaches talking to one another. It’s coaches providing detailed charts of a teams signs to one another.

None of this lessens the seriousness of the allegations against Stalions and Michigan. It does add some context, though.

 

[RedOctober3829]

I’m not so sure. Coaches advanced scouting for each other seems to me almost as problematic, fairness-wise, as random fans advanced scouting, whether or not it’s a technical violation of NCAA rules. Maybe worse because coaches are experts and the collusion aspect of it. It’s not just coaches talking to one another. It’s coaches providing detailed charts of a teams signs to one another.

None of this lessens the seriousness of the allegations against Stalions and Michigan. It does add some context, though.

Both Rutgers and OSU played Michigan in ‘22 so they got their signals through scouting them on film before their games so it’s not like they were doing it specifically for Purdue. Whether or not it’s ethical to share that kind of stuff is up for debate. I personally don’t think sharing that kind of info is a big deal. I’ve seen it a lot in my time in athletics. Coaches are friends with other coaches all over and share info on various levels. To me, it sounds like Michigan knows they’re caught red handed and throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

 

[mauf]

Both Rutgers and OSU played Michigan in ‘22 so they got their signals through scouting them on film before their games so it’s not like they were doing it specifically for Purdue. Whether or not it’s ethical to share that kind of stuff is up for debate. I personally don’t think sharing that kind of info is a big deal. I’ve seen it a lot in my time in athletics. Coaches are friends with other coaches all over and share info on various levels. To me, it sounds like Michigan knows they’re caught red handed and throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

There’s no argument that Michigan didn’t break the rules or made an innocent mistake. The only question is how severe the violation was. That depends a lot on how much of a competitive advantage Michigan gained. The information other P5 programs are getting, legally or otherwise, about other teams’ signals is relevant in determining how much of an advantage Michigan gained by cheating.

 

[Mooch]

There’s no argument that Michigan didn’t break the rules or made an innocent mistake. The only question is how severe the violation was. That depends a lot on how much of a competitive advantage Michigan gained. The information other P5 programs are getting, legally or otherwise, about other teams’ signals is relevant in determining how much of an advantage Michigan gained by cheating.

I have zero dog in this fight but this is where I’m landing on this, pending details of this latest allegation. Is there any material outcome difference between say, a coach at Ohio State deciphering Michigan’s signals during their game and then disseminating them to future Michigan opponents vs Michigan using their own coach or supporter to do the same thing?

To me, this is very much like Spygate: “You can film the opposing sideline, but not from THERE…”

 

[CFB_Rules]

To me, this is very much like Spygate: “You can film the opposing sideline, but not from THERE…”

Also no dog in the fight. This is my feeling as well, this violation is virtually identical to Spygate.

 

[Zososoxfan]

I'm not going to link, but Warde Manuel (Michigan's AD), Tom Mars (JH's personal attorney), and several elected state officials (!!) have sent letters to the Big10 about the situation. Michigan is lawyering up hard on this and I'm just glad them show some spine after acquiescing to the NCAA too many times in recent memory. Have to think this is fostering an 'us vs. the world' mentality in the locker room.

 

[BigJimEd]

No dog in the fight either but, other than involving signals, not sure I see the analogy to Spygate. Different league for one but let's go with it. What would be the equivalent to losing first round pick and heavy fines?