#DFG: Canceling the Noise

[txexile]

Now Rapoport saying they were given a "rough 4-hour outline." Also saying Brady was being forthcoming.

 
I bet Brady was also forthcoming in the, what was it, 5-hour long session he had with Wells earlier this year, details of which we have not seen. I wonder what kind of impression the world would have of Brady's forthcoming-ness if they could read that transcript. (I say this without knowing if it would be good or bad.)

 

[joe dokes]

legal friends, how can brady be placed under oath? this isn't court...

 
Putting aside what *effect* the oath might have, I assume that in NY, Kessler, like most lawyers, is legally qualified to administer an oath to a witness (as are, for examples, notaries).  If Brady is the first witness, and Kessler is doing the questioning, the first thing Kessler says is, "Mr. Brady, do you swear the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you [deity of choice or none at all]?" That's all there is to it.
 
In many states, the lawyer or the stenographer swears the witness at a deposition.
 
It may be that Goodell can't *order* that witnesses be sworn in; or that he wont if asked.  And it could be that he said, "That's not necessary Mr. Kessler," and Kessler said, "we'll do it anyway."

 

[joe dokes]

“@gregaiello: @ProFootballTalk There is no strict 4-hour time limit on the TB team’s presentation and it is expected to go beyond that.”

 
There is no way Goodell, having already reserved Thursday, would limit them that way. He probably said, "Gentlemen it would be great to finish this in one, 8 hour day.  Mr. Kessler, how long do you think you need?"  "Mr. Commish, I'll shoot for 4 hours, but I make no promises."

 

[HomeBrew1901]

 
I bet Brady was also forthcoming in the, what was it, 5-hour long session he had with Wells earlier this year, details of which we have not seen. I wonder what kind of impression the world would have of Brady's forthcoming-ness if they could read that transcript. (I say this without knowing if it would be good or bad.)

You mean the transcript that Wells challenged Brady's agent Don Yee to produce if Yee felt he was so unfair to Tom?  That transcript that Yee said he had but did not yet produce?

 

[ifmanis5]

Oh God, even Schefter's been infected.

 

[lambeau]

Gregg Levy may be running this. He's been lead NFL outside counsel forever. Fought Al Davis.

 

[RedOctober3829]

How does RapSheet know that Brady is being forthcoming???

 

[LuckyBen]

You mean the transcript that Wells challenged Brady's agent Don Yee to produce if Yee felt he was so unfair to Tom?  That transcript that Yee said he had but did not yet produce?

The transcript that Wells conveniently left out of his report?

 

[RG33]

Also saying Brady is being forthcoming.

Yeah, I love this line -- implying that, up to this point, Mr. Brady has not been forthcoming.

 

[SoxinSeattle]

I hope Brady walked in, sat down, slowly took off 4 Super Bowl rings, and placed them in front of him.

Incredible.

 

[PayrodsFirstClutchHit]

It is easy for some of us to judge how others are dealing with this situation when we are not surrounded daily by idiots on all sides constantly throwing this in our face. I am fortunate to be among other like-minded Pats fans that believe this is all BS. If I was forced to defend the Pats/Brady daily to a legion of Jets/Yankees mouth-breathers,  I cannot say with certainty that I would be able to maintain my sanity/composure. 

 

[simplyeric]

You mean the transcript that Wells challenged Brady's agent Don Yee to produce if Yee felt he was so unfair to Tom?  That transcript that Yee said he had but did not yet produce?

Are you implying that the transcript either doesnt exist, or isn't as good for Brady as Yee implied?
Maybe so..
But maybe it's that transcript that Wells challenged Yee to produce, but Yee and counsel felt it was better saved for a later date, like maybe an official hearing or even a court appearance?

 

[HomeBrew1901]

The transcript that Wells conveniently left out of his report?

What does that have to do with anything?
 
Now with the premise that I think the report is deeply flawed and beyond ridiculous, Yee challenged Wells essentially calling him a liar for not producing the transcript as part of the report, probably not expecting Wells to come out and have his own press conference.  When wells did and challenged Yee what happened?  Yee shut the fuck up and we haven't heard from him since.

 

[HomeBrew1901]

Are you implying that the transcript either doesnt exist, or isn't as good for Brady as Yee implied?
Maybe so..
But maybe it's that transcript that Wells challenged Yee to produce, but Yee and counsel felt it was better saved for a later date, like maybe an official hearing or even a court appearance?

More likely he overrstepped his bounds and Kessler told him to back down and let him handle it.
 
If I trust anyone helping Brady out in this it's Kessler.

 

[Shelterdog]

What does that have to do with anything?
 
Now with the premise that I think the report is deeply flawed and beyond ridiculous, Yee challenged Wells essentially calling him a liar for not producing the transcript as part of the report, probably not expecting Wells to come out and have his own press conference.  When wells did and challenged Yee what happened?  Yee shut the fuck up and we haven't heard from him since.

 
I think Yee's shutting up had a lot more to do with the big guns (Kessler & Co.) getting involved than anything Wells said. 

 

[RedOctober3829]

 

Gary Myers ‏@garymyersNYDN  31s32 seconds ago
Source says Brady hearing expected to wrap up today. Thursday had been reserved just in case
 

 

[HomeBrew1901]

 
I think Yee's shutting up had a lot more to do with the big guns (Kessler & Co.) getting involved than anything Wells said. 

Agreed we posted the same thing by a few seconds.

 

[dcmissle]

Just as Fee had no business in a murder trial, Yee has not much to contribute to this. 

 

[swingin val]

Perhaps some of you should just take a break from talking so much football to your coworkers in the offseason? Seems to cause such stress in your lives.

 

[tims4wins]

Reiss just posted this - can our legal experts weigh in?
 
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4782428/what-happens-if-tom-brady-doesnt-get-appeal-result-he-desires
 
edit: these quotes are from Munson and Cossack, respectively, so grain of salt (especially since both work for ESPN)
 
a couple quotes:
 
 
 

Unless Goodell makes an equally egregious error (which could happen), Brady's lawsuit challenging Goodell's decision is doomed to failure

 
 
 

"Brady could go to court and say, 'I didn't get a fair hearing and the basic tenets of due process were violated' because you can't have the same person reviewing his own decision. I don't think it's going to work because the collective bargaining agreement gave Goodell this power. We've seen other cases where it's happened, but it's rare. So my thoughts are that the appeal is the end of the day: Whatever Goodell decides, that's what is going to happen."

 

[bsj]

Reiss just posted this - can our legal experts weigh in?
 
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4782428/what-happens-if-tom-brady-doesnt-get-appeal-result-he-desires
 
edit: these quotes are from Munson and Cossack, respectively, so grain of salt (especially since both work for ESPN)
 
a couple quotes:
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
Fascinating that Ive heard other legal experts saying that Brady has an incredibly strong case in court. 

 

[MarcSullivaFan]

Reiss just posted this - can our legal experts weigh in?
 
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4782428/what-happens-if-tom-brady-doesnt-get-appeal-result-he-desires
 
edit: these quotes are from Munson and Cossack, respectively, so grain of salt (especially since both work for ESPN)
 
a couple quotes:
 
 
 
 
 
 

Munson is generally correct, although he's a little over the top in describing how difficult it is to vacate an arbitration award. And he's ignoring the fact that Goodell may have already screwed up in delegating his authority to Vincent. Additionally, the fact that Goodell is not a neutral makes it more likely that his decision will be vacated. That is not a remotely normal circumstance, so I'm not sure how much precedent there is. Cossack is just rambling.

 

[joe dokes]

I accept NOTHING that Lester Munson says as having ANY value whatsoever. He hasn't been a lawyer for 25 years (forced to resign), and his ESPN analyses have ranged from wrong to nonsensical.
 
I am agnostic about Cossack's analytic skills.  And while he may be right about the limited subset of appellate issues related to Goodell's authority to hear the appeal (altho, as  SullivanFan points out, he doesn't mention the delegation issue) he says nothing about the substance of the penalty (the stronger point) or the weakness of the science (the weaker point, IMO, in court).
 
And both ignore the fact that the hearing isn't half over yet, and we don't know how fairly Goodell is conducting it.

 

[dcmissle]

Pay them no mind.  If these two were that good, they would be doing, or judging, not yakking.
 
Munson once contradicted himself in the same case during the last labor beef, first characterizing the district court decision as ironclad, then reversing himself when it got before the court of appeals.
 
Jeffrey Toobin made an ass of himself on Court TV when he forecast OJ's conviction when the jury came back fast.
 
Relax ...
 
EDIT.  These two are ignoring the fact that there is no basis -- none -- for the proposition that a player can be punished for being "generally aware" of another's violation.  Now they may not like it, but at some point precedent matters.  Brady is not a coach, an executive or responsible in any capacity for what anyone else on that team may have done.
 
The thing that does concern me is the thing that concerned me from the beginning -- the obstruction charge. 

 

[drbretto]

Munson is generally correct, although he's a little over the top in describing how difficult it is to vacate an arbitration award. And he's ignoring the fact that Goodell may have already screwed up in delegating his authority to Vincent. Additionally, the fact that Goodell is not a neutral makes it more likely that his decision will be vacated. That is not a remotely normal circumstance, so I'm not sure how much precedent there is. Cossack is just rambling.

 
This still flies in the face of just about everyone here, who admittedly is getting their info from posters here. Everyone seems to be under the impression that if this goes to court, it's a slam dunk victory for Brady. Someone mentioned upthread that any lawsuit would be based on whether or not the proceedings were fair or if the CBA was broken. 
 
Someone please clarify. Do I live in a world where the fact that no actual crime was committed actually does not matter and the entirety of Brady's case is based on whether or not Goodell offered the good bagels at the meeting today? Because I'm moving to Canada where I will enjoy socialism and legal marijuana, eh.

 

[RedOctober3829]

ESPN obtained June 15 letter from Greg Levy, referencing 4-hour time limit for Brady defense team. Levy said "if good cause shown", in June 22 letter, he would grant up to 1 additional hour.

 
https://www.facebook.com/AdamSchefter/posts/977285305657444

 

[Joe D Reid]

I just heard that Team Brady was given 4 hours to make their case.
 
hmmm
 
the NFL took 3 months to make theirs?
 
this is going to court

Combined with the request for documents, this sets up the NFLPA to drop a really snarky "Notably, the NFL itself failed to comply with reasonable investigative requests, and yet seeks to punish Brady for refusing to comply with unreasonable requests." footnote in the federal court brief.

 

[MarcSullivaFan]

By the way, Munson is licensed to practice in Illinois. I checked the roll of attorneys. He was suspended 25 years ago, but he has not been disbarred.

 

[soxhop411]

 
https://www.facebook.com/AdamSchefter/posts/977285305657444

Nfl is a farce. WWE

 

[txexile]

Reiss just posted this - can our legal experts weigh in?
 
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4782428/what-happens-if-tom-brady-doesnt-get-appeal-result-he-desires
 
edit: these quotes are from Munson and Cossack, respectively, so grain of salt (especially since both work for ESPN)
 
a couple quotes:
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
I thought the Sports Illustrated preview of Brady's hearing and, later, court appeals options was better thought out than Munson and Cossack: http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/06/22/tom-brady-roger-goodell-nfl-deflategate-appeal

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Goodall needs to make himself available to the media all the time as he said. He doesn't have time for everyone!

 

[soxhop411]

 
https://www.facebook.com/AdamSchefter/posts/977285305657444

So in essence Brady needs to be a "good boy" to get that extra hour.

 

[Rusty13]

 
https://www.facebook.com/AdamSchefter/posts/977285305657444

 
Is this "4 hour time limit" in the text of the original CBA?  If not, how exactly is this "due process"?

 

[WayBackVazquez]

Munson is generally correct, although he's a little over the top in describing how difficult it is to vacate an arbitration award. And he's ignoring the fact that Goodell may have already screwed up in delegating his authority to Vincent. Additionally, the fact that Goodell is not a neutral makes it more likely that his decision will be vacated. That is not a remotely normal circumstance, so I'm not sure how much precedent there is. Cossack is just rambling.

Uh, why would D.MN have jurisdiction over this case? Was Brady traded to the Vikimgs?

 

[joe dokes]

By the way, Munson is licensed to practice in Illinois. I checked the roll of attorneys. He was suspended 25 years ago, but he has not been disbarred.

 
Fair enough.  My recollection was that he was looking at disbarment for committing a violation subsequent to a previous suspension, agreed to a further suspension at which time he also announced he was done praticing law anyway.

 

[Kdelle]

Bad Science...............takes 2 minutes,

 

[simplyeric]

Bad Science...............takes 2 minutes,

That's what she said.

 

[HomeBrew1901]

Bad Science...............takes 2 minutes,

Well fuck.... I hope Kessler thinks of this.
 
Maybe drops the microphone on his way out.  BOOM

 

[Joe D Reid]

Uh, why would D.MN have jurisdiction over this case? Was Brady traded to the Vikimgs?

D.MN. had jurisdiction over one of the free agency/collusion cases back in the 90's and retained jurisdiction over CBA issues  as part of the settlement agreement. Although I am completely unfamiliar with the details here, so it might be that this one would end up someplace else.

 

[simplyeric]

More likely he overrstepped his bounds and Kessler told him to back down and let him handle it.
 
If I trust anyone helping Brady out in this it's Kessler.

So, the transcript that Wells challenged Yee to produce, but wasn't produced because it wasn't advantageous to do so at that time.
Doesn't much matter, it just seemed like you were implying that those transcripts were nothing more than a bluff.

 

[Bergs]

Munson and Cossack work for ESPN, who - if history is any indication - will likely be in lockstep with Goodell. IMHO, making the claim that Brady has no case in court is exactly what Goodell would want if he is planning on overturning the suspension. The optics go away from him being afraid to go to court, and support the bullshit "new evidence" out he gave himself last month.

 

[Cellar-Door]

D.MN. had jurisdiction over one of the free agency/collusion cases back in the 90's and retained jurisdiction over CBA issues  as part of the settlement agreement. Although I am completely unfamiliar with the details here, so it might be that this one would end up someplace else.

The NFLPA's main law firm from basically the beginning is headquartered in MN, they have filed every single suit there. Since the NFL does business and has a franchise there, I don't see any reason it would have to be moved.

 

[HomeBrew1901]

So, the transcript that Wells challenged Yee to produce, but wasn't produced because it wasn't advantageous to do so at that time.
Doesn't much matter, it just seemed like you were implying that those transcripts were nothing more than a bluff.

Not implying anything, just challenging the guy that said Wells should have produced the transcript and said that Yee had the same opportunity to do so and didn't.  It could have been a bluff by Yee that backfired when Wells actually held his own press conference or Yee doesn't want to do it because those transcripts have nothing in them (which is likely why they aren't in the report) to help or hurt Brady or Kessler told him to cut the shit and let him do his job.
 
Like you said, doesn't matter much.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

So, the transcript that Wells challenged Yee to produce, but wasn't produced because it wasn't advantageous to do so at that time.
Doesn't much matter, it just seemed like you were implying that those transcripts were nothing more than a bluff.

I thought Yee referred to detailed notes that he has but not an actual transcript.

 

[Corsi]

 
Click link for larger version: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CINSAINXAAA0aDO.jpg:large

 

[Average Reds]

 
Why would Goodell shorten or reduce the suspension to Brady in order to avoid having a federal court do the exact same thing? There has to be some extra downside to Roger to make that move, and I'm not seeing what it is.
 
In the alternative if he backs down now he's going to have a segment of people who think that Kraft brokered a deal (agree to the team suspension to get Brady off) or that he's in Kraft's back pocket, or that he's soft on Brady and the Pats. 
 
From his perspective, better to have the court overturn it.  At least that's the way I am seeing it.

Exactly.* He may know he's going to lose in court, but that is "better" for him than being seen as caving.
 
*edit: referring to the RalphWiggum post, not the intervening one.
 

 
Goodell has much more to lose in court than just having the suspension vacated.  The NFLPA has made it clear that they would use Brady's case to argue that the NFL's discipline process - or perhaps Goodell's application of that procerss - violates established labor law and ask that the court strip Goodell of that power.
 
I don't have the slightest clue whether the NFLPA stands a chance of effectively re-writing the CBA in court, but I'm pretty sure that the NFL would rather avoid having a judge rule on that issue.  (Especially given the fact that court appears to be the only place where the NFLPA seems to have any competence.)

 

[Ed Hillel]

The NFL has pissed off Schefter:

https://mobile.twitter.com/adamschefter/status/613424146467409922

 

[Tony C]

 
It may be better for his public perception, but it is really better for his perception among the owners if he loses in court? Losing in court has real ramifications from a CBA perspective, whereas dropping the suspension and losing in the court of public opinion doesn't have similar ramifications. If it comes down to job security, I think appeasing the owners is more important than appeasing the fans.
 
That being said, it's not entirely clear what outcome the owners would prefer.

 
Yeah, it's a good question and it is unclear. If it's true that another court loss could result in broader sanctions against the NFL's ability to apply sanctions, you're right that the NFL play might be to beat a hasty retreat....not leave it to the courts to force them to do so. But, given how they seem to have not blinked in the Rice and Adrian P cases, despite reversals, I think the precedent is for them to prefer to be on the right side (eventually) of public opinion on those cases, not the right side of the courts.

 

[WayBackVazquez]

The NFLPA's main law firm from basically the beginning is headquartered in MN, they have filed every single suit there. Since the NFL does business and has a franchise there, I don't see any reason it would have to be moved.

Which law firm is that? Because Winston & Strawn (Chicago) handled the Peterson case.

It looks like venue may come from the labor law statute, 29 USC 185 (which is not my thing). Under the general venue statute, I would think it would need to be brought in D.Ma or SDNY.

 

[GBrushTWood]

The NFL has pissed off Schefter:

https://mobile.twitter.com/adamschefter/status/613424146467409922

 
Absolutely. As usual, one hand doesn't talk to the other at the NFL. Or they can't avoid stepping on their own clown shoes. Whichever metaphor works. Goodell hired this guy Levy to run the appeal proceedings today. For better or worse, Levy at least appeared to have a plan in place with respect to rules for the hearing today. The 4 hour limit was clearly included in that document.
 
Then, word starts to spread about the 4 hour limit. Goodell's top public relations henchman, Aiello, tweets out there is no 4 hour time limit whatsoever. Huh? The very dude your fuhrer assigned to run the hearing created that rule.
 
More evidence for the "they are making shit up as they go along" theme.