#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
"Throwing bananas from the van" proved a fruitless google. But that's a helluva sig...koufax32 said:
@BenVolin: Now a Harvard sociologist takes a crack at poking holes in the Wells Report. Interesting points http://t.co/hrdXZeNd6v
It could affect it if it wipes out the Brady suspension. What if the NFL offers a deal where Brady's suspension is overturned but the fine and draft pick penalties stand? There's a good chance that's where we end up anyway, but it saves a lot of hassle and lawyer's fees on both ends, lets Kraft save face by blaming everything on McNally / Jastremski, and keeps the league from having to air any other dirty laundry (via Kraft or via Brady's legal team).AB in DC said:
Tremendous. His was an attempt to be incendiary, of course, but terms like "sociological misfire" are always fun.soxhop411 said:
How does this work? Are Dorito dink reporters trying to ask every owner what they think or is RG playing lobbyist? And does the schmuck talk to these owners one on one or have one of his VPs try to persuade them to speak to the public. Either way, I hope Kraft is taking names and doesn't forget.Ed Hillel said:
The independent investigation of the leaks is exactly the sort of thing the league office is trying to avoid. The Patriots don't have a lot of leverage here; letting the league wash their hands of any wrongdoing is one of the few things they can offer up in trade.pappymojo said:
Unless Kraft, out of consideration for the greater good of the league, is holding on to a trump card with the potential to do far more damage to the credibility of the investigation than what the Pats have already released, I don't see what incentivizes Goodell to consider anything more than a nominal reduction in the team penalties to keep the peace.
Either that or maybe Belichick is threatening to dig up all the bodies the NFL has buried under Goodell's tenure and dump the rotting carcasses outside the entrance to 345 Park Avenue (which I'd love to see happen).
Either that or maybe Belichick is threatening to dig up all the bodies the NFL has buried under Goodell's tenure and dump the rotting carcasses outside the entrance to 345 Park Avenue (which I'd love to see happen).
Why would he call attention to himself and ball pressure if he was going to break the rules?ipol said:
That's like someone telling a cop they met at a rest stop: "just a reminder- the speed limit is 65 on this highway, and the letter of the rules on radar guns is you can't bust anyone going below 72."
Which is what someone who drives 72 within the letter of the law might do. But someone who regularly goes 85 and breaks the law has little reason to call attention to themselves.
Edit: this refers to Brady, who told McNally to tell the refs 12.5. Why would Brady do this if he really wanted them at 12.0?
But . . . . But . . .I just read five pages about how the Patriots shouldn't settle unless Goodell lights himself on fire.J.McG said:
I really feel like we're back in the days where Sharks of Vegas was our shining light and the only question was whether the Wells report would out every villian in this thing from Kensil to Harbaugh. Now we're back to everyone acting like the Patriots hold all the cards because (wait for it) . . . . Lawsuit!
A face saving resolution for all parties (Brady included) that reduces the penalties and puts this to rest before preaseason, and continues to keep the door open for Brady to deny ordering a code red and allows for some acknowledgement by the league that the report has flaws would be a home run as far as I'm concerned. Those with sugar plum dreams that an exoneration will be achieved through litigation are not being realistic. Possible? I suppose. Likely? Of course not. The best result in litigation is taking a chunk out of the league with further ambiguities to follow.
You're right. My point is that, while it may be fun, fixating on specifics such as this will only lead to heartache. There will be nothing that amounts to fair in the coming weeks / months. Much easier to let the ridiculousness wash over you and giggle.crystalline said:
Well, +1 or so. The NFLPA along with Kessler will determine Brady's fate. Kraft is now seeing how far he will push Goodell down the mountain.DrewDawg said:
The most aggrieved party in all of this has to be Aaron Rodgers.
Look, the Pats will continue to ensure the balls enter the games around 12.5 psi, which means on any given cold NE night, they'll be below 12 eventually.
Aaron, on the other hand, will be stuck with his 13.5 psi and be playing in Green Bay - where the ball will probably end up at 11 by the end of the game.
The Colts' target was apparently the Packers, not the Pats.
Look, the Pats will continue to ensure the balls enter the games around 12.5 psi, which means on any given cold NE night, they'll be below 12 eventually.
Aaron, on the other hand, will be stuck with his 13.5 psi and be playing in Green Bay - where the ball will probably end up at 11 by the end of the game.
The Colts' target was apparently the Packers, not the Pats.
soxhop411 said:
I read Skocpol in grad school, on social revolutions. Now I'm reading her on Ballghazi, calling the Wells Report "an affront to America’s Founding Fathers." Every day this gets more and more insane. I can't wait for tomorrow.
Bob Kraft is a Patriots fan, first and foremost. If the Patriots are truly innocent in all of this, he is not going to accept any deal that doesn't completely eliminate the "cheater" stigma in the eyes of the public, except for those (cough, Jets fans, cough) who would never be swayed no matter what happened. Likewise, he's said it a million times, Brady is like a son to him, so any deal that Kraft accepts will have to also cover Brady's suspension as well.
If he accepts any deal short of the NFL admitting that they have no evidence of intentional wrongdoing on the part of the Patriots staff and Brady, and takes any penalty for it other than some nominal amount like 25k (for not having regulation footballs or some shit), than it will be pretty clear that the Pats did something wrong, and the NFL has some evidence for it and this is the best case scenario for both sides.
If he accepts any deal short of the NFL admitting that they have no evidence of intentional wrongdoing on the part of the Patriots staff and Brady, and takes any penalty for it other than some nominal amount like 25k (for not having regulation footballs or some shit), than it will be pretty clear that the Pats did something wrong, and the NFL has some evidence for it and this is the best case scenario for both sides.
Did anyone else envision this with that last sentence?soxhop411 said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38ETQ1RYa_Q
Kraft admits to wrongdoing in the refusal to allow a fifth interview with McNally. Kraft apologizes to the NFL for demanding an apology in advance of the completion of the investigation. Patriots management accepts responsibility for inadequate supervision of McNally and Jastremski. Brady accepts responsibility for interfering with the investigation by coaching JJ prior to his NFL interview. Brady also admits to potentially encouraging ball tampering by being so emphatic in insisting that the responsibility of McNally was to make sure the balls came back from the ref at 12.5 PSI.
The NFL reduces the suspension to one game. The fine is reduced to 500,000 plus a 2 in 16 and a 4 in 17.
The Patriots also agree to institute an internal program of staff education on the integrity of league regulations with emphasis on those that have a direct effect on game competition.
That should be enough to fumigate the aroma.
The NFL reduces the suspension to one game. The fine is reduced to 500,000 plus a 2 in 16 and a 4 in 17.
The Patriots also agree to institute an internal program of staff education on the integrity of league regulations with emphasis on those that have a direct effect on game competition.
That should be enough to fumigate the aroma.
Brady's not missing one game. Any single game he misses due to suspension will taint his legacy, and he does not want that. Fuck that shit. He didn't do anything wrong.
Directed at those who think the there is economic damage to the league or the Patriots (setting aside the fine) - where do you see it coming from?
From where I sit, Deflategate has been bang up business for the media outlets who cover the NFL and its given the Shield air time in the dead period two weeks before the Superbowl and then in May when there are a ton of other sporting events going on that usually garner the attention of normal sports fans. Its a nice clean "story" that involves no-life long injuries, no horrific specter of domestic abuse, no homicides and no suicides. It certainly tarnishes the reputation of the Patriots and Tom Brady but most non-Patriot fans are already convinced they cheat or, at least, push the envelope. Furthermore, non-New England fans are sick of their success so its nice to see them taken down a peg. I just don't get where the damage comes from here.
Regarding a deal, I don't see how one gets done here. Any walk back by Goodell will likely be viewed by other fanbases (and, I suspect, other teams) as Goodell bailing out Kraft and giving some sort of favored nation status to New England.
Finally, its worth repeating because I see some people bringing the word up again as if its even a remote possibility - there will be no exonerating the New England Patriots here, regardless of what happens. I wish this weren't the case, not because I care about what others think of the team I root for but because instead of discussing Brady as one of, if not the greatest QB to play the game, he is now lumped in with Lance Armstrong, ARod and Barry Bonds as someone who not only cheated but probably didn't need to do anything else to get an edge. I don't see it this way at all but I have heard many a casual sports fan as well as talking heads speaking about him this way over the past few weeks. There really is no coming back from that in the eyes of some people. And no trial or deal is going to change that.
From where I sit, Deflategate has been bang up business for the media outlets who cover the NFL and its given the Shield air time in the dead period two weeks before the Superbowl and then in May when there are a ton of other sporting events going on that usually garner the attention of normal sports fans. Its a nice clean "story" that involves no-life long injuries, no horrific specter of domestic abuse, no homicides and no suicides. It certainly tarnishes the reputation of the Patriots and Tom Brady but most non-Patriot fans are already convinced they cheat or, at least, push the envelope. Furthermore, non-New England fans are sick of their success so its nice to see them taken down a peg. I just don't get where the damage comes from here.
Regarding a deal, I don't see how one gets done here. Any walk back by Goodell will likely be viewed by other fanbases (and, I suspect, other teams) as Goodell bailing out Kraft and giving some sort of favored nation status to New England.
Finally, its worth repeating because I see some people bringing the word up again as if its even a remote possibility - there will be no exonerating the New England Patriots here, regardless of what happens. I wish this weren't the case, not because I care about what others think of the team I root for but because instead of discussing Brady as one of, if not the greatest QB to play the game, he is now lumped in with Lance Armstrong, ARod and Barry Bonds as someone who not only cheated but probably didn't need to do anything else to get an edge. I don't see it this way at all but I have heard many a casual sports fan as well as talking heads speaking about him this way over the past few weeks. There really is no coming back from that in the eyes of some people. And no trial or deal is going to change that.
Of the front prevail, cooler heads will preside. Talk of action will be put away. The whole bottle of wine was a mistake.
Doctor G said:
And why would Brady accept this? It essentially amounts to a tacit admission of cheating.
All these deals everyone is cooking up only make sense to me if they involve only the Pats Organization. I just don't see why Brady will sign on to anything less than exoneration, or failing that go down fighting and proclaiming his innocence. He really doesn't have anything to lose.
Assuming the above is correct, whether a deal is possible between Kraft and Goodell then comes down to what situation has more leverage on Goodell--the prospect of a prolonged fight with Kraft, or the prospect of being taken to court by Brady. If it's the latter, I just don't see grounds for any deal.
More infuriating talk from Albert Breer & Ross Tucker (italics mine).
Breer gets on Tucker's Serius show and basically says "if you look at the Wells report... you can take 25 points and take it all apart... but this is an emotional and rash response from a team that's... premiere and should be beneath them... Patriots have come up with a 'creative' way to rebuttal... but you can't say there wasn't something that went on...".
Fellas, for every Florio, we have 10 Breers & Tuckers & Volins. We're in a bubble, narrative set a long time ago.
Breer gets on Tucker's Serius show and basically says "if you look at the Wells report... you can take 25 points and take it all apart... but this is an emotional and rash response from a team that's... premiere and should be beneath them... Patriots have come up with a 'creative' way to rebuttal... but you can't say there wasn't something that went on...".
Fellas, for every Florio, we have 10 Breers & Tuckers & Volins. We're in a bubble, narrative set a long time ago.
SeoulSoxFan said:
Yes, I keep hearing a bunch of national media types saying the Patriots and Brady should just accept the penalties and move on, that their legacies and reputations suffer more the longer it goes. Really? The damage is done already, only reason they do not fight on to the end is if Brady really did do it and something would come out that he did. Not believing that, I think these national guys can go fly a kite, Goodell set this up, now he and the rest of the owners get to defend their actions.
What if McNally took the balls into the bathroom to verify that they were at the proper pressure, 12.5 PSI?
That's consistent with his understanding of Tom Brady's desires, and McNally's desire to avoid what happened with the Jets game.
That's consistent with him bugging the ref about the inflation pressure.
That's also consistent with him being in the bathroom for such a short time. Checking pressure (I presume) is a lot quicker than releasing pressure, especially if you are not recording the pressures.
If he was sloppy, it could explain why the variance of the pressure was higher (though I don't think this is true)
It might even explain him willingly talking to the NFL after the game, if he knew that he didn't release any air from the balls and that nobody else had access to them.
The big issue here is what McNally would have done if the measurements were too high. Go back to the ref and tell him? Not very likely.
Don't get me wrong: the Wells Report is BS, and by far the most likely truth is that nothing happened - McNally went in to take a piss. But if McNally went into the bathroom for some other reason, this is the only scenario that I've thought about that makes any sense.
Heck, even if it's not true, it would be great if Kraft and Goodell could agree that this is what happened for face saving purposes.
That's consistent with his understanding of Tom Brady's desires, and McNally's desire to avoid what happened with the Jets game.
That's consistent with him bugging the ref about the inflation pressure.
That's also consistent with him being in the bathroom for such a short time. Checking pressure (I presume) is a lot quicker than releasing pressure, especially if you are not recording the pressures.
If he was sloppy, it could explain why the variance of the pressure was higher (though I don't think this is true)
It might even explain him willingly talking to the NFL after the game, if he knew that he didn't release any air from the balls and that nobody else had access to them.
The big issue here is what McNally would have done if the measurements were too high. Go back to the ref and tell him? Not very likely.
Don't get me wrong: the Wells Report is BS, and by far the most likely truth is that nothing happened - McNally went in to take a piss. But if McNally went into the bathroom for some other reason, this is the only scenario that I've thought about that makes any sense.
Heck, even if it's not true, it would be great if Kraft and Goodell could agree that this is what happened for face saving purposes.
Not sure that would save face. It would likely land not unlike the deflator weight loss angle, but with more "Goodell loves the Pats!" thrown in, just for good measure.
Adam Schefter
3 mins ·
For those asking why Patriots suspended two employees if those two did nothing wrong, as New England claims: NFL asked Pats to suspend them prior to discipline being handed down, per a league source in New York. New England obliged with the NFL's request.
https://m.facebook.com/AdamSchefter/posts/957919684260673
3 mins ·
For those asking why Patriots suspended two employees if those two did nothing wrong, as New England claims: NFL asked Pats to suspend them prior to discipline being handed down, per a league source in New York. New England obliged with the NFL's request.
https://m.facebook.com/AdamSchefter/posts/957919684260673
Disagree and think you're way off base.Deathofthebambino said:
If they had evidence, it would have been disclosed in the Wells report. It's clear they don't have more evidence and it's clear Kraft thinks they're innocent from all his actions.
In the end Kraft might just be more pragmatic than you're giving home credit for. See Spygate punishment for exhibit A. See his comments at the release of the Wells report for exhibit B. The Pats core fan base already thinks they're innocent and i suspect the damage to his bottom line when you restore the 1st rounder, let his QB play, and reduce the fine is minimal.
I don't expect Kraft to do anything that admits guilt but I do think he's open to a pragmatic resolution that saves everyone a lot of money even if he doesn't get everything he wants. He never will get everything he wants no matter what course he takes.
amarshal2 said:
I don't think Kraft's response to Spygate is indicative of what he'll do in this case. As Kraft himself has said, in Spygate there was no dispute that the team had, in fact, violated a rule. The team admitted it and turned over all the evidence. Some punishment was deserved; Kraft may have thought it excessive, but he couldn't argue that the team wasn't in the wrong.
In this case, Kraft has maintained consistently from the outset that neither the team nor Tom Brady has done anything wrong. They don't believe that they have violated a single NFL rule. Hence I can easily see Kraft absolutely going to the mats over any punishment he regards as excessive. I don't think he will accept anything more than a minor fine ($25K-ish), and at worst a late round draft pick (a la Falcons' and Browns' recent punishments). Even in accepting a minor punishment, I predict he will still deny any actual wrongdoing, and simply say that the team has decided to accept the punishment, however unfair, so that everyone can just move on.
The goal should be getting Brady's suspension revoked and getting back the first round pick. All other fines and lost pick scenarios are tolerable. If there is a deal on the table that includes those two things, Kraft should pounce on it without hesitation. I'm sure they can work out spin language regarding what the Pats are admitting guilt to, etc. Because we live in an idiot culture that blows things like this and the equally ridiculous Spygate "scandal" completely out of proportion, the legacy and tarnished reputation concerns left the barn a long time ago. Make the deal that is most beneficial to the football operation and overall business going forward. And then let loose the dogs of war next fall, and bring home number 5.
AB in DC said:
Um. Just for clarity: Is the subject of the quoted post the NFL? The exact quote is "probably very good at spin".
cornwalls@6 said:
I agree with this. It ain't my million bucks.
The suspension and the first round pick really hurt the team on the field, though.
If I were Kraft, I'd agree to the 25k fine that is in the rules, and only submit to that fine because the balls were potentially submitted to human urine as there is not evidence that McNally washed after peeing.
I don't believe Kraft has much, if any, support from other owners. I certainly don't believe any other owner will stand beside and support Kraft to the same extent that Kraft stood beside and supported Goodell during the Ray Rice fiasco.
I think the conversations with the other owners center around their concerns that Kraft is "outing" the League for institutional (i.e. top-to-bottom) incompetence. This hurts the teams as well as Goodell, and that's not good for anyone, including Kraft. I imagine Kraft is saying, "Well, I stand accused by the League, the League instigated and perpetuated false and/or incorrect information, and it already sucks for me, so welcome to my world."
In exchange for not moving ahead with litigation, Kraft's negotiations should focus on 1) clearing Brady, 2) regaining either/both of the picks, and maybe 3) taking an incremental hit on fines for being critical of the league and leaving an "aroma" around the situation with Jastremski and McNally.
I think the conversations with the other owners center around their concerns that Kraft is "outing" the League for institutional (i.e. top-to-bottom) incompetence. This hurts the teams as well as Goodell, and that's not good for anyone, including Kraft. I imagine Kraft is saying, "Well, I stand accused by the League, the League instigated and perpetuated false and/or incorrect information, and it already sucks for me, so welcome to my world."
In exchange for not moving ahead with litigation, Kraft's negotiations should focus on 1) clearing Brady, 2) regaining either/both of the picks, and maybe 3) taking an incremental hit on fines for being critical of the league and leaving an "aroma" around the situation with Jastremski and McNally.
soxhop411 said:
ipol said:
Love this quote... and it's what the rest of the country, Breer included, doesn't understand. The Patriots are typically on communications lock-down. They wouldn't be acting out like this if they didn't believe they were seriously aggrieved. It's a fundamental response that is in striking contrast to their normal MO, but the lack of balance in the reporting requires disclosure, in the Patriots' view.
cornwalls@6 said:
Brady has already filed his appeal through the NFLPA. The club is all but prohibited from negotiating on Brady's behalf now. (They would have to include the NFLPA as a party to the negotiations and I can't imagine that happening.) So the negotiations are not about Brady.
This is about the fine, the picks and the disposition of the two employees. And the incentive for both parties is strictly business: if the NFL is negotiating, they are trying to correct an obvious overreach quietly without a public airing of dirty laundry. As an owner - and a powerful one - minimizing the damage to the league is also in Kraft's interest. (Whether he is in a state of mind to recognize that is another matter.) But that's the nature of any negotiations.
Brady's appeal (and eventual lawsuit if the suspension is not vacated) will continue.
Schefter also said that the league is going to start testing footballs at halftime, but, even if they find that footballs are losing pressure and demonstrate the Patriots' innocence, they will not go back and remedy their punishments.
Also said Wells has been paid over 45 MILLION between this and Incognito. This is a farce.
http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2015/05/19/adam-schefter-on-dc-nfl-told-patriots-to-suspend-2-team-employees-prior-to-discipline-being-issued/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
WTF.
Also said Wells has been paid over 45 MILLION between this and Incognito. This is a farce.
http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2015/05/19/adam-schefter-on-dc-nfl-told-patriots-to-suspend-2-team-employees-prior-to-discipline-being-issued/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Ed Hillel said:
Are you surprised? The owners are awash in cash. That's in thanks I guess to the Goodellbot. I could see this affecting the CBA at some point since clearly the NFL is making a ton in profit, or at least enough to pay Wells that much money. If you can afford to pay a investigator to half ass an investigation about air 45 million dollars (I'm sure some of this money went to PW), then why can't you raise the cap another $20 million?
Mark Cuban might be correct about what he said last year in regards to the NFL.
Souns like Schefter has the NFL whispering in his ear in an attempt to get Kraft to back down and let things settle down.Ed Hillel said:
Shouldn't really stop Kraft and the team from exploring every possible avenue anyway. The biggest reason they're unlikely to get the picks back is that they have no real avenue for appeal like Brady does through the NFLPA and the CBA. But I think the team absolutely needs to fight with everything they do have rather than throw their hands up and walk away, if only to be able to say they don't want to accept the punishment but they have no other choice. Capitulating without exhausting every option is tacit admission to guilt, at least in the court of public opinion. While the loons are going to believe the Pats guilty no matter what, the team shouldn't be guided by that inevitability.
I believe the attorneys on this board have done a great job in highlighting the challenges Kraft would have if he were to take this punishment to court. Kraft is many things, but one thing he is not is a blithering idiot, so he is clearly aware of the uphill battle he would face in court. Had the Wells report concluded that there was no tampering of the footballs whatsoever, but had Goodell decided to suspend Brady and Belichick for the year and docked the Pats their entire slate of 2016 draft picks, then Kraft would have had a legal argument to overturn the punishment. But that didn't happen, and as harsh as the punishment was, Goodell will have the Wells report to fall back on, seriously flawed as it is.
Kraft's best chance would seem to be for a couple of owners to talk to Goodell and possibly change his mind about the non-cooperation aspect. Kraft doesn't need 2/3rd's of the owners to back him on that; he just needs someone to at least get Goodell to revisit that aspect. Say to Goodell: "Look, I know you drink the Kool-Aid that Paul Weiss is the best law firm on the planet, but they did go a bit too far regarding the cooperation angle. And, as a fellow owner, that concerns me if I'm asked to cooperate in an investigation on my team. Yes, the integrity of the game is important, but so is the integrity of any investigation into the integrity of the game". So, if Kraft were offered a draft pick back, he would have to at least consider whether it is in the best interest of the team to take such a deal. It probably would be, as any deal would be far better than any other foreseeable outcome.
The problem is that Goodell appears beholden to the C students in the league office, the same clowns that think the Pats were at fault for Aaron Hernandez killing a guy. Under the proven maxim that the character of the underlings ultimately reflect the character of the boss, Goodell does not appear one to want to listen to reason on such matters. So the chances of even this strategy being successful are probably about 1%.
As for Brady, we need to remind ourselves that to the other 31 owners, Brady is just another piece of the "cattle". His suspension matters not at all to them; instead, it's a NFLPA matter that needs to be handled under the terms of the CBA. So there's zero chance that any deal between Kraft and Goodell would include any reduction of Brady's punishment.
Kraft's best chance would seem to be for a couple of owners to talk to Goodell and possibly change his mind about the non-cooperation aspect. Kraft doesn't need 2/3rd's of the owners to back him on that; he just needs someone to at least get Goodell to revisit that aspect. Say to Goodell: "Look, I know you drink the Kool-Aid that Paul Weiss is the best law firm on the planet, but they did go a bit too far regarding the cooperation angle. And, as a fellow owner, that concerns me if I'm asked to cooperate in an investigation on my team. Yes, the integrity of the game is important, but so is the integrity of any investigation into the integrity of the game". So, if Kraft were offered a draft pick back, he would have to at least consider whether it is in the best interest of the team to take such a deal. It probably would be, as any deal would be far better than any other foreseeable outcome.
The problem is that Goodell appears beholden to the C students in the league office, the same clowns that think the Pats were at fault for Aaron Hernandez killing a guy. Under the proven maxim that the character of the underlings ultimately reflect the character of the boss, Goodell does not appear one to want to listen to reason on such matters. So the chances of even this strategy being successful are probably about 1%.
As for Brady, we need to remind ourselves that to the other 31 owners, Brady is just another piece of the "cattle". His suspension matters not at all to them; instead, it's a NFLPA matter that needs to be handled under the terms of the CBA. So there's zero chance that any deal between Kraft and Goodell would include any reduction of Brady's punishment.
Honestly, if I'm Kraft, I may just accept a deal where I agree not to sue/appeal the team penalties in exchange for the apparent PSI testing that's going to be done next year get made public, on a weekly basis. That's good enough for me at this point in time. Brady is obviously a different story.