#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
If Kraft could clear Brady and get the 1st back, I would advise him to accept the fine and the 4th for "lack of cooperation" and violating the league bylaws on criticizing the league publicly. There would also have to be a private agreement with the other owners and the league about getting bit a second time (for unrelated activities) on stuff you've already been punished for. And Kensil has to go.
There is no way all the happens unless the other owners know Kraft has enough ammo to blow the place up, and think he's ready to use it.
There is no way all the happens unless the other owners know Kraft has enough ammo to blow the place up, and think he's ready to use it.
Ed Hillel said:
Screw that. The league will secretly have all the balls inflated to 14 PSI before every game and only release the halftime numbers.
I'm cross posting, but deal if I am Kraft is to accept the punishments as is, and agree not to sue, in exchange for PSI levels being measured and recorded, then released publicly, next season. I'd require a third party be present for the testing. Brady would deal with his issue separately. That's it, that's all I want. Schefter said on D+C this morning that the league is going to start testing them anyway, so just come up with a method of making them public. People will eventually see this witch hunt for what it's been if they go that route. That's good enough for me.
MarcSullivaFan said:
And yet, Mike and Mike still say they are "confused" by this.
King was on with them and said that they "deal" could be about Brady's and the team's sanctions. I'm not sure he's right about that. I don't think Brady is accepting any suspension.
MuppetAsteriskTalk said:
If you were Kraft wouldn't you demand to have a Patriots representative watch the measurement of the balls for both sides pre game and halftime and record all the numbers? What's the NFL's basis for saying no to that?
Ed Hillel said:
I don't see why the Patriots would accept that, unless there's a stipulation that they fine can be reduced or the picks returned.
Only the NFL could set up a season long experiment to prove something that's already scientifically established.
$45mm for roughly 6-8 months of legal work is amazing. This is not-bet-the-company stuff. If this were a public company, he'd have no way to justify that expense. This is gold plated bathroom stuff.
I help oversee a budget 2/3rds of that to litigate 4000+ cases a year for one of the larger companies in the world. When I was outside and represented the same company (then on real bet-the-company litigation), our billables were no where near $45mm/year, including our experts and our ESI consultants.
Hell, for $45mm for less than a year of billables, I'd write anything he freakin wanted.
I help oversee a budget 2/3rds of that to litigate 4000+ cases a year for one of the larger companies in the world. When I was outside and represented the same company (then on real bet-the-company litigation), our billables were no where near $45mm/year, including our experts and our ESI consultants.
Hell, for $45mm for less than a year of billables, I'd write anything he freakin wanted.
Are we sure Schefter said $45 million, and not "four to five" ($4-5) million? $45 million sounds crazy and would exceed most prior estimates by legal analysts several times over -- unless the $45 mil includes the cost of the Exponent study and all other work done by outside consultants on behalf of PW, in which case that figure may be slightly more justifiable.
Peter King explained "this": The Pats bent over backwards, thinking, naively in retrospect, that if they suspended the two, this would be taken into account in the assessment of penalties against the team.
M & M were silent after that explanation, which makes all the sense in the world and which also explains why, to the chagrin of some people here, the Pats did not go ballistic immediately after the Wells report issued and particularly did not man up on Brady's behalf.
They have no recourse anyway, so do your best to clear your name, and hope the public pressure leads to Goodell having to reconsider the situation before the draft next year. I can't see them getting anything better. Sure, I'd try to get a deal that triggers the release of the picks back to the Patriots, but I'd take this if that didn't work.DrewDawg said:
It doesn't fit their narrative, they are over glorified disc jockeys without a second of management or HR training talking.DrewDawg said:
There will be very little, if any media that supports the Pats, the vast majority of the country has already made up it's mind and there is no coming back science be damned. There is no solution short of court for the Pats and even that won't change the narrative because SPYGATE and long term success must mean they have cheated all along. Scorched earth time, I've tried to follow this without getting sucked into the idiocy but it's literally impossible.
One of my favorite expressions in this type of event is "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience". That about sums up this entire fiasco for me.
Tyrone Biggums said:
These are the same owners who claim they can't afford to put in goal line cameras. Nothing surprises me with them anymore.
$45 million?!?! That's 45,000 hours at $1000/hr. There are 45,000 hours in 1875 days, so 45,000 billable hours is like one person (I know a few attorneys were involved here) working every hour for almost three straight years. Has to be "4-5 million".
Let's put it this way, if the original penalty was a 4th round pick and a $100K fine, Kraft would have had no problem throwing McNally and Jastremski under the bus. That's business of the NFL, folks.
It was also obvious to the entire world outside of Ben Volin, that once the report came out, the NFL was going to force the Pats to sanction those employees. Locker room attendants aren't exactly high up on the food chain.
It was also obvious to the entire world outside of Ben Volin, that once the report came out, the NFL was going to force the Pats to sanction those employees. Locker room attendants aren't exactly high up on the food chain.
DrewDawg said:
Mike and Mike are doing exactly what I would expect from a Jets fan and someone that never even played in a Super Bowl.
I heard part of the Schefter interview. I thought he said $45 million, but it was a total sum for all the work Wells and PW has done for the NFL. Incognito, Deflategate, and others. I'm not sure if they worked on CBA stuff or other minor cases behind the scenes.
Ed Hillel said:
Any chance Kraft has documents or correspondence relating to Spygate that could really kill Roger and/or the NFL? Maybe communications from Roger that say something like, "Bob, I know this got blown way out of control and it was just a minor procedural violation but you need to take it for the good of the league." Or any proof about the destroyed tapes actually being destroyed because they prove other teams filming from the sidelines, and not because Roger was protecting Kraft?
I've been considering that if Kraft has documents or proof along those lines, that he willingly suppressed for the good of the league, that it would give him quite a bit of leverage here. Probably just a dream.
And then not change previous penalties if/once they find out that the punished parties were found to be innocent.DrewDawg said:
cshea said:
Believe the are involved in the concussion litigation, which I'd expect to be a large project
JimBoSox9 said:
Yes...the NFL has been spinning this as "we caught the cheaters" from day one, and most of the media has bought it hook, line, and sinker. I'm sure Goodell's friends in the media will be able to spin any deal as being great for the NFL.
Mad dog "Russo" or whatever was just on WEEI railing Brady and the usual. They asked him if he read the Wells Report, and his answer was "it's not my job to do that." Sounds about right.
Schefter said 45, not 4-5, btw.
Schefter said 45, not 4-5, btw.
Ed Hillel said:
If there's no recourse, why is the NFL apparently talking about a deal?
NFL: "Here's the punishment"
Pats: "Oh shit, WTF? And we have no avenue of appeal???"
NFL: "Yeah, there's nothing you can do at all. Wanna talk about a deal?"
There's clearly *something* the Pats have that makes the NFL want to talk.
It's just fucking sad that the NFL is reaching the worst possible conclusion out of this whole shitshow. They should come out of this saying "hey, these ball inflation standards are 50 years old and have no appreciable effect on the game, so from now on we'll broaden the spectrum to make quarterbacks as comfortable as possible", but nope, they'll implement further measures to assure every game is played with balls between 12.5 and 13.5 PSI, even going as far as measuring them during halftime. You can already prep the balls however the fuck you want, why be so anal about a PSI threshold that no one cared about 6 months ago? If a QB wants to throw a football at 8 PSI, how does that negatively impact the game?
Imagine it's late 2007, and Pedro Martinez is still pitching for the Sox, at his, say, 2002 level. Just prior to the 7th game of the ALCS against the Tampa Bay Rays (just go with me on this), somebody from the Rays complains to Bob Watson that the Sox are always making the shadows go across home plate so it's hard for opposing batters to see pitches. Around about the fifth inning, Bob and some of his cronies go down to the field and measure the shadow. They all use different methods and tools to measure, and some of the numbers appear to be either written down incorrectly or accidentally transposed, but they concur that the shadow sure looks longer than it was when the game started, because even though they didn't write down any measurements at the time, it was definitely behind home plate. Bob hurries over to the head of the Fenway grounds crew and says to him: "We measured the shadow. You're in big f*cking trouble." The Sox go on to win the game, 12-4.
Following the game, the national news is dominated by leaks from MLB regarding "the incident," which is quickly dubbed "Shady Dealings." Unnamed sources report that opposing teams have suspected the Sox of this for years. One source says the shadow was so dark that the Rays batters literally couldn't see. And remember that time when Joe Torre asked the umps to check Timlin's cap for foreign substances? Sure, they didn't find anything, but where there's smoke there's fire, right? It's clear that the Sox encourage a culture of cheating.
In the week leading up to the start of the WS, Terry Francona holds a press conference, states that he's pretty sure that the sun rises and sets every day, and hands out copies of the Old Farmer's Almanac. Pedro Martinez, the winning pitcher in the now-tainted ALCS Game 7, holds a press conference as well. He says he didn't do anything to change the time of sunset on the day of Game 7, or any other day. Several reporters ask him if he's ready to apologize to his fans for cheating. A number of articles and news reports characterize Pedro as appearing "uneasy" during the press conference.
The WS is moved to a dome, to eliminate any possibility of a repeat of "Shady Dealings." The Sox win Game 7 with a walkoff bloop single by pinch-hitter Bobby Kielty. Pedro is awarded the WS MVP, having started three games in the series and won them all, throwing three CG shutouts.
Bud Selig commissions a $5 million investigation into "Shady Dealings" from a law firm famous for proving, on behalf of the Creationist Museum, that humans and dinosaurs co-existed. The investigation drags on for months. When finally issued, it concludes that Pedro Martinez was more probably than not at least generally aware that the grounds crew at Fenway Park was manipulating the time of sunset in order to obtain a competitive advantage for the Sox. The team itself is concluded to be cleared of any suspicion of involvement.
The report is clear regarding the evidence. It states that the ALCS was probably held in September, despite the fact that everyone involved seems to remember it being in October. A quick check of the Old Farmer's Almanac shows that the Game 7 shadow measurements obtained by Bob Watson and his associates using a 100-foot tape measure were within the range of what one would expect no matter whether it was held in September or October, but a measurement was also taken by an umpire stepping off the distance, and that measurement indicated that the shadow was longer than it should have been for a game played in early September. Since the umpires are responsible for rulings on the field, it's assumed that the umpire's measurement must be correct.
The report itself downplays the scientific data, however, and bases its conclusion primarily on two texts sent over a one-year period from a low-level groundskeeper to his supervisor. In both cases, he uses the word "shadow." Although in one case it clearly refers to him "shadowing" a more experienced groundskeeper to learn his job, and that is in fact the interpretation he provides when questioned, the report finds that this explanation is implausible, and that his use of the word "shadow" in a text during the previous off-season is sufficient reason to conclude that, more probably than not, 1) the groundskeeper manipulated the time of sunset during ALCS Game 7, and 2) Pedro knew he did, because surely he must have known.
As a result, Bud decides that the Sox will be fined $1 million, lose a first round draft pick in 2008 and a fourth in 2009, and Pedro will be suspended for 40 games of the 2008 season.
Following the game, the national news is dominated by leaks from MLB regarding "the incident," which is quickly dubbed "Shady Dealings." Unnamed sources report that opposing teams have suspected the Sox of this for years. One source says the shadow was so dark that the Rays batters literally couldn't see. And remember that time when Joe Torre asked the umps to check Timlin's cap for foreign substances? Sure, they didn't find anything, but where there's smoke there's fire, right? It's clear that the Sox encourage a culture of cheating.
In the week leading up to the start of the WS, Terry Francona holds a press conference, states that he's pretty sure that the sun rises and sets every day, and hands out copies of the Old Farmer's Almanac. Pedro Martinez, the winning pitcher in the now-tainted ALCS Game 7, holds a press conference as well. He says he didn't do anything to change the time of sunset on the day of Game 7, or any other day. Several reporters ask him if he's ready to apologize to his fans for cheating. A number of articles and news reports characterize Pedro as appearing "uneasy" during the press conference.
The WS is moved to a dome, to eliminate any possibility of a repeat of "Shady Dealings." The Sox win Game 7 with a walkoff bloop single by pinch-hitter Bobby Kielty. Pedro is awarded the WS MVP, having started three games in the series and won them all, throwing three CG shutouts.
Bud Selig commissions a $5 million investigation into "Shady Dealings" from a law firm famous for proving, on behalf of the Creationist Museum, that humans and dinosaurs co-existed. The investigation drags on for months. When finally issued, it concludes that Pedro Martinez was more probably than not at least generally aware that the grounds crew at Fenway Park was manipulating the time of sunset in order to obtain a competitive advantage for the Sox. The team itself is concluded to be cleared of any suspicion of involvement.
The report is clear regarding the evidence. It states that the ALCS was probably held in September, despite the fact that everyone involved seems to remember it being in October. A quick check of the Old Farmer's Almanac shows that the Game 7 shadow measurements obtained by Bob Watson and his associates using a 100-foot tape measure were within the range of what one would expect no matter whether it was held in September or October, but a measurement was also taken by an umpire stepping off the distance, and that measurement indicated that the shadow was longer than it should have been for a game played in early September. Since the umpires are responsible for rulings on the field, it's assumed that the umpire's measurement must be correct.
The report itself downplays the scientific data, however, and bases its conclusion primarily on two texts sent over a one-year period from a low-level groundskeeper to his supervisor. In both cases, he uses the word "shadow." Although in one case it clearly refers to him "shadowing" a more experienced groundskeeper to learn his job, and that is in fact the interpretation he provides when questioned, the report finds that this explanation is implausible, and that his use of the word "shadow" in a text during the previous off-season is sufficient reason to conclude that, more probably than not, 1) the groundskeeper manipulated the time of sunset during ALCS Game 7, and 2) Pedro knew he did, because surely he must have known.
As a result, Bud decides that the Sox will be fined $1 million, lose a first round draft pick in 2008 and a fourth in 2009, and Pedro will be suspended for 40 games of the 2008 season.
The deflate gate case brought 5 million and the concussion settlement case gave the form 40 million, is what Shefter said.dcmissle said:
DrewDawg said:
Perhaps the NFL has some small inkling that it might not be in the League;s best interest to drag this out for months.
One reason that *anyone* settles *anything* is that it gives the settlers control over the outcome. You can take less than 100% of what you might thave gotten, but you aren't leaving this up to a bunch of strangers/idiots/arbitrators/judges. That has value. Finality - in terms of the team agreeing not to sue -- also has value to the League (and to Kraft).
Settlements frequently do not neatly track the supposed merits of the case.
If this is the case, then you'd almost have to assume that the discussions do involve Brady and the NFLPA, as otherwise there wouldn't seem to be anything to discuss.Ed Hillel said:
However, seeing as the opinion of those more knowledgable than I am is that Brady is likely to get the suspension overturned on his own, there would seem to be little incentive for Kraft to agree to anything that doesn't get him his picks back. Unless it's a just a pragmatic appeal to Kraft the owner where they vacate Brady's suspension in exchange for the rest of the penalties sticking and avoid any legal proceedings which are far easier to speculate about on a message board than engage in directly.
I take it as a sign that the NFL does not want to go any route that could result in internal communications showing up in court. Between the conflicting reports on when the league was alerted about the balls, the aborted testing of the Colts balls, the inaccurate Mort leak and 10.1 PSI letter, and ultimately the handoff to Wells with the understanding that he not focus on the NFL's approach, I remain firm in my belief that the NFL is well aware of how much of an embarrassing shitshow they orchestrated around the AFC Chsmpionship game and want all the proof of that exhibited in internal emails and texts to never see the light of day.
The "testing" program is idiotic. The operation of the ideal gas law is not open for debate. If nothing else, the Wells report should have put an end to that stupidity. NFL footballs are not exempt from the laws of physics. And when their study shows this to be the case, it proves nothing one way or another about what happened at the AFCCG because the IGL and tampering are not mutually exclusive. We will never know with total certainty what happened with the AFCGG balls because we don't have the data. It is depressing that adults who are paid handsomely to run a billion dollar organization could be so painfully stupid.
Edit: And of course this type of incompetence and stupidity is hardly limited to the NFL. One of the saddest realizations of adulthood.
Edit: And of course this type of incompetence and stupidity is hardly limited to the NFL. One of the saddest realizations of adulthood.
The Mad Dog interview on EEI was painful. They did a good job embarrassing him about not reading the reports, but why did they not mention the PSI numbers? This should be front and center in any debate at this point.
The Wells Report expected halftime readings of 11.32 to 11.52 to take into account the temperature drop. 8 of the 11 balls fell within that range on one of the logos. And if we go by the gauge that Anderson remembers using pregame, the average reading of the 11 balls was 11.49.
And just for the sake of argument, assuming the worst case scenario that the other gauge was used pregame - the average reading on that garage was 11.11 - which only exceeds the bottom portion of the expected range (11.32) by 0.21.
This is what the general public, and those who haven't read the report, are missing.
The Wells Report expected halftime readings of 11.32 to 11.52 to take into account the temperature drop. 8 of the 11 balls fell within that range on one of the logos. And if we go by the gauge that Anderson remembers using pregame, the average reading of the 11 balls was 11.49.
And just for the sake of argument, assuming the worst case scenario that the other gauge was used pregame - the average reading on that garage was 11.11 - which only exceeds the bottom portion of the expected range (11.32) by 0.21.
This is what the general public, and those who haven't read the report, are missing.
The Patriots should ask that any penalties for ball deflation be deferred till the conclusion of the 2015 season conditional on the survey results
. They should agree to accept any penalties for non cooperation immediately conditional on the NFL issuing a report on the internal leaks which drove this investigation prior to the retention of Wells.
They should also demand that any League office personnel who participated in activities to prejudice the initial investigation be removed from future responsibility in investigative matters.
. They should agree to accept any penalties for non cooperation immediately conditional on the NFL issuing a report on the internal leaks which drove this investigation prior to the retention of Wells.
They should also demand that any League office personnel who participated in activities to prejudice the initial investigation be removed from future responsibility in investigative matters.
Nah, won't change a thing. Wells has already acknowledged the reality of the IGL. Regardless of what the study shows it can't exculpate the Patriots because the data from the AFCCG is incomplete and the laws of physics and tampering are not mutually exclusive. It's a ridiculous waste of time. Just change the freaking pregame procedures to remove the possibility of tampering if it's such a BFD.Ed Hillel said:
Well, I think that's the range they should have been at if measured outside in 48 degree temperature, it's not what's would have been expected if measured after having been warming up inside for more than a few minutes, right?Bone Chips said:
I would debate you on this point. He wasn't embarrassed at all. He actually said it's not his job to read it.Bone Chips said:
Right, but Goodell could premptively reduce/revoke Brady's suspension at any time, no? He's not legally bound to go through with appeal process. I realize given his track record and ego, that is probably unlikely. But are we sure Brady's suspension is a complete non-starter in whatever discussions Kraft and Goodell are having?Average Reds said:
Bone Chips said:
I remember once back on WFAN Russo was reading the "market report" that was a sponsored portion of their afternoon. He spent 2 or 3 minutes attempting to pronounce the name of "Merck" and his failure to do so brought the entire show to a crashing halt.
The idea that Chris Russo is a blithering idiot really isn't subject to debate.
