Only way I want a deal is if Brady isn't suspended a single moment and the first round pick is given back. Otherwise, fuck any 'deal'. Any real 'deal' is recognizing the preeminent 21st century franchise for what they are and not running them in the mud.
#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
There's another possibility here.
The NFL is using ESPN and Peter King to float the notion that they are willing to deal. Then, if no deal is struck before the deadline and the Patriots sue, it will look as though the league attempted to "compromise," but the Pats were bullheaded about it.
The NFL is using ESPN and Peter King to float the notion that they are willing to deal. Then, if no deal is struck before the deadline and the Patriots sue, it will look as though the league attempted to "compromise," but the Pats were bullheaded about it.
Trying to wear a mediator's hat here, I can't see too many paths to a successful resolution that does not involve the Brady piece.
You can't agree to a solution that allows face-savings on all sides, but also leaves in place a procedure in which facts are going to be found and someone could very well be declared right and someone be declared wrong. You'd really need to wrap it up in a bow, and you'd have to make it palatable enough to Kraft that he would prevail on Brady to take a deal -- and I would think the only way it gets done if is that deal allows Brady to continue to deny knowledge that balls were being deflated, but to take responsibility in some other way.
The good news is that the Wells report leaves this possibility open, with its "general awareness" conclusion, which (and if I were trying to mediate this) is the angle that I would exploit on both sides to try to get them to a resolution that ties everything up in a bow.
You can't agree to a solution that allows face-savings on all sides, but also leaves in place a procedure in which facts are going to be found and someone could very well be declared right and someone be declared wrong. You'd really need to wrap it up in a bow, and you'd have to make it palatable enough to Kraft that he would prevail on Brady to take a deal -- and I would think the only way it gets done if is that deal allows Brady to continue to deny knowledge that balls were being deflated, but to take responsibility in some other way.
The good news is that the Wells report leaves this possibility open, with its "general awareness" conclusion, which (and if I were trying to mediate this) is the angle that I would exploit on both sides to try to get them to a resolution that ties everything up in a bow.
I'm probably too mad to think straight about this topic, but no I don't take this deal. I want war. I want a full blown embarrassing court case. I want the leagues dirty laundry out there. I want every thing about the way that clown show over there works exposed. Fuck it, go to the mattresses Bob.Marciano490 said:
Here's a scenario, trying to figure out the point of indifference to acceptance for both sides:
Penalty of 2nd in 2016 (without any of the restrictions on other picks acquired, etc.), a 3rd in 2018, and an undisclosed fine (leaks suggest 'slightly reduced, and still very substantial').
Pats agree to acknowledge inadequate supervision of JJ/JM
League acknowledges misunderstanding on the additional interview of JM (nice suggestion above on that)
Brady suspension eliminated.
Who says no?
I believe Pats do. I think they need a 'pound of flesh' on leaks or the investigation at this point. But if they got it, they might accept above as cost of doing business.
Penalty of 2nd in 2016 (without any of the restrictions on other picks acquired, etc.), a 3rd in 2018, and an undisclosed fine (leaks suggest 'slightly reduced, and still very substantial').
Pats agree to acknowledge inadequate supervision of JJ/JM
League acknowledges misunderstanding on the additional interview of JM (nice suggestion above on that)
Brady suspension eliminated.
Who says no?
I believe Pats do. I think they need a 'pound of flesh' on leaks or the investigation at this point. But if they got it, they might accept above as cost of doing business.
Marciano490 said:
Every male lawyer in North America over the age of 40 throw around a few godfather lines. Now dcmissile goes overboard and flies off the handle every now and then, but me and him we're still good friends.
E5 Yaz said:
Very very risky. If Kraft were to call Schefter and say the report is completely inaccurate and there have been no such talks, it could be a problem for the league right now. If this report makes it through the night with no refutation on either side, it's the kind of report one has to take seriously as being true, and also one would expect that both sides have agreed to leaking it.
I suppose Goodell would say since the WR says the org and BB are clean that the draft picks and fines are rescinded and it will be up to Brady by himself to fight the suspension. That's just a guess since Roger is a wild card. The average sports fan will scream, 'see, I told you Kraft and Goodell are buddies and the Pats get special treatment!' That's why I don't want a deal.
Except that it won't be the Patriots suing, it will be the GOAT. And Goodell can grin stupidly and say, "Aw shucks, I tried." But that won't stop a judge from taking them to the woodshed in the NFLPA appeal. And whether the NFL likes it or not that ruling will leak into the wider world.E5 Yaz said:
JimBoSox9 said:
Depends at how good they are at spin. (Probably very good -- we've already seen how they've been playing the media this whole time.)
I wouldnt do it PKB, but that might be a reasonable scenario for Kraft. However, I do not think the league will be negotiating much. They have backed themselves into a corner. I would imagine it looks like Brady suspension reduced to 2 games, fine halved, 4th rounder eliminated. How can they really walk this back?
A deal sounds like a really great way for every party involved to look worse. I'm excited to see how fucked this process can get! Any deal that doesn't include Roger getting on his knees, begging Brady for forgiveness, and kissing Brady's dick at Gillette is insufficient.
Yes, this line of thinking is right- what kind of deal satisfies the parties involved?JimBoSox9 said:
I think we can stipulate that Kraft suing the league or otherwise making the NFL or Goodell look bad hurts Goodell's job prospects.
If that's the case, Goodell can't just turn tail, rescind all punishments and issue an apology. He'd come off looking like a nincompoop and might end up getting fired anyway by owners who think him PR-incompetent.
So what's his best option? Throw underlings under the bus (Kensil, Vincent). Say they misled him. "Hey, Vincent administered the punishment, not me". Maybe there is another "independent" report to make those guys look bad. And they get fired and the Pats get some punishment rolled back- maybe all of it if Kraft and Brady play their cards right.
Voila. Kraft is happy. Goodell looks good and keeps his job.
If Kensil or Vincent were smart they'd be calling their own crisis PR firms right now.
I think the Pats should say this: We agree to double all the penalties -- $2 million fine, two first-round picks, two fourth-round picks, and an eight-game suspension for Tom Brady. But we want to delay the penalties for a year. During the 2015 season, the PSI of every football in every game will be measured across the entire league. If the PSI of balls used in similar weather conditions don't result in comparable drops in air pressure to what occurred to our balls in the AFC Championship Game, we will accept the doubling of our penalties with no further complaints. But we will have an observer present to verify the measurements at those games with with comparable weather conditions.
Jinhocho said:
Agreed---that was my thinking on the comment to Marciano, above. I think the league is unlikely to offer much, and I can't see Kraft agreeing unless he gets both the 1st and some/all of Brady's suspension reduced.
Also, if I were the union or Brady, I wouldn't agree to any punishment at all for him as part of such a deal and I'd consider requiring a league statement exonerating him to go along with any settlement. His rep can really only be vindicated in court at this point (and likely not even there) so he seems pretty unlikely to go along with any of these scenarios. And there's close to no chance the league will give the kind of statement I'd expect he'd require.
Goodell can walk it back completely by blaming Vincent and Kensil and saying he just followed their advice. Might be unlikely, but I'm already microwaving my popcorn in anticipation.Jinhocho said:
Absent having the NFL vacate his suspension, I cannot imagine Brady would be a part of any deal.
The team is in a position where a deal makes lots of sense. Brady is not. He needs to go to the mattresses if need be.
The team is in a position where a deal makes lots of sense. Brady is not. He needs to go to the mattresses if need be.
SemperFidelisSox said:
One could imagine some of the other owners trying to intervene, and telling both sides, "enough is enough" and trying to broker something. If McCaskey's advisors, or Blank, or even Snyder got on the phone in advance of the upcoming meetings and tried to propose some sort of mediated resolution, one could see that getting traction. Neither Goodell nor Kraft can afford to alienate that group. And both would respond.
Average Reds said:
And to be honest, it's in the NFL's interest to have Brady v. Roethlisberger instead of Jimmy v. Roethlisberger, not just from a competitive standpoint but also it terms of ratings. Can you imagine how many will tune in for that game (if Brady's playing) given the events of the last few months?
Highly doubtful Brady plays in this sandbox. Unless the Commussioner is willing to reinstate him in toto. Which seems doubtful.
There can be a deal around process, substance or both.
Process -- there is no way Goodell throws Wells under the bus and agrees to a do-over investigation. There is no way Kraft accepts the results of that investigation.
So crediting Shelter earlier today, Goidell agrees to hire an investigator to probe the shameless leaking. And Kraft agrees to be more careful with the footballs.
(Honestly, I don't know why they haven't announced that the balls from now on are exclusively in the possession of the game officials once tendered and gauged.)
Substance -- 1st and 4th reduced to 2nd and 5th. Fine remains. Both sides agree to say NOTHING about this further once deal is struck, and that includes no leaks)
Brady fights on.
There can be a deal around process, substance or both.
Process -- there is no way Goodell throws Wells under the bus and agrees to a do-over investigation. There is no way Kraft accepts the results of that investigation.
So crediting Shelter earlier today, Goidell agrees to hire an investigator to probe the shameless leaking. And Kraft agrees to be more careful with the footballs.
(Honestly, I don't know why they haven't announced that the balls from now on are exclusively in the possession of the game officials once tendered and gauged.)
Substance -- 1st and 4th reduced to 2nd and 5th. Fine remains. Both sides agree to say NOTHING about this further once deal is struck, and that includes no leaks)
Brady fights on.
I said in the Kraft thread that a deal among the owners makes a lot of sense.soxhop411 said:
But the "without appeal" line seems very odd. What's so horrible about an appeal that would make Kraft, Goodell, or anyone else want to avoid it? Why not file an appeal this week and then discuss a deal at the owners' meeting next week?
dcmissle said:
You think Goodell can offer that, though? I think if he's caving that much it has to come after the league meetings this week, and would reflect a lot of heat on him there. I don't think he can agree to that and THEN face those guys...he'd look like a buffoon for changing his penalty that quickly with no real reason to do so.
JeffLedbetter said:
This is roughly where I was thinking this could go, but without the "double or nothing" stuff.
So that Kraft doesn't have to leak the indisputable evidence that Goodell lied about having the Rice video.AB in DC said:
On one level, it's simple: Roger lost all moral stature by becoming a national joke, giving Rice only 2 games and becoming the poster boy for "Doesn't Get Domestic Violence"; he absolutely hammered AP, and continues to try to regain his reputation as The Sheriff.
dcmissle said:
Impossible to say without knowing what you don't know. We really don't know what the true facts are, what's on his phone, and whether he really can go the distance in a situation where he might be placed under oath. And we don't know what's at stake or what might be offered. Nor do we know how personally important it might be to Brady to get this behind him if he's handed a face saving way to do it.
It's hard to see brokering a deal that works without Brady. I can imagine a few paths to success that include Brady. Just depends on how good your mediator is.
The board should get accustomed the idea that if there is a resolution here you will hate it. In fact, the way you'll know it's a good settlement is if everyone hates it a little. Complex, difficult, many moving parts problems get settled every day -- you need two ingredients. Both sides need to be motivated and reasonable, and both sides need to listen to the other.
This thing is a candidate to be settled. It is imbalanced enough, uncertain enough, and there is enough face saving required on both sides that a strong and talented mediator that all sides respect could get this done.
If the day before the discipline actually handed down was handed down, Vincent had announced a $1mm fine, a 2nd and a 4th, there still would have been plenty of butt hurt here. I though this might be where Goodell landed in an appeal, before our 20,000 word manifesto.PedroKsBambino said:
The only other element is probing the leaks. The other owners, I would imagine, would really relate to the injustice of this. Besides, they probably would not be able to nail much down. Like Tom Brady, League officials may refuse to surrender their PERSONAL devices out of principle. Which I am sure would be met with applause here (ducking)
This is all complicated by the fact that Kraft's brand needs Brady de-tarred more than the first. Yes, in practical terms the first round pick really hurts. But you can recover from that. Having your franchise's best player and the GOAT permanently labeled a cheater hurts them at the branding level. So I don't see them really agreeing to anything unless Goodell is going to rescind the suspension and decide that the report was maybe mistaken about Brady's awareness.DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
I wonder if, all said and done, the main take away should be #IAmIncognito. That is, the next time some ridiculous -Gate comes along under this commissioner's watch, aren't we behooved to align ourselves with those aggrieved fans?
I still think that any deal is going to have to be offered and/or brokered by the owners. But here's a deal I could see Goodell and Kraft reaching:
Goodell suspends the fine and draft pick penalty for one year
Goodell agrees "in the interest of the game" to collect more data on ball deflation during the 2015 season before rendering a final verdict
Goodell apologizes for the leaks coming from his office.
Kraft acknowledges that that the Wells report was accurate and met the current "more probable than not" standards.
Kraft agrees not to engage in further (public) criticjsm of Goodell or the NFL
Kraft agrees that if the additional evidence points toward tampering, he will apologize publicly and accept any NFL penalty.
Not sure I'd like this deal, but I could see Goodell and Kraft going for it.
Goodell suspends the fine and draft pick penalty for one year
Goodell agrees "in the interest of the game" to collect more data on ball deflation during the 2015 season before rendering a final verdict
Goodell apologizes for the leaks coming from his office.
Kraft acknowledges that that the Wells report was accurate and met the current "more probable than not" standards.
Kraft agrees not to engage in further (public) criticjsm of Goodell or the NFL
Kraft agrees that if the additional evidence points toward tampering, he will apologize publicly and accept any NFL penalty.
Not sure I'd like this deal, but I could see Goodell and Kraft going for it.
I am firmly convinced that there is no acceptable deal for Kraft that does not involve a full recission of Brady's suspension and a retraction of the Wells finding as to Brady.
Nothing else matters.
Nothing else matters.
No way in hell does Kraft go for that. I think he's had enough of trusting Goodell's "investigations" to last him a lifetime.AB in DC said:
Before this crapfest began, well before the SB, I heard portions of an interview of one of the Dolphins coaches disciplined. Forget his name, but he was a real Boston guy. He said Wells absolutely screwed Richie and the team -- and he said that without throwing Martin under the bus. He sounded pretty convincing to me.ipol said:
If a transcript of that interview had appeared in one of our threads, it would have been roundly ridiculed. Now, not so much.
But his most recent interview, a day or so ago I believe, he absolutely throws Martin under the bus. Describes Martin's suicidal ideation in far more detail than I cared to hear.dcmissle said:
Edit: Jim Turner I believe we are talking about
If anyone thinks they are taking any kind of 'deal' that falls short of completely exonerating Brady and reducing team sanctions to less than what the Falcons or even the Browns got recently, is kidding themselves.
I think he goes way too far but you all be the judge.
"I said, 'Jon, where were you?' And he gave me some BS answer. And I said, 'No, you're going to tell me where you were,'" Turner recalled. "He said, 'I was sitting in my apartment on the 16th story looking out the window.' I said, 'What do you mean you were looking at the window, are you saying what I think you're saying?' He said, 'Yeah, I was thinking about jumping.'"
Turner then asked Martin if that was the first time he had ever thought about suicide.
"When somebody says that to you, there's a whole new realm you're in with that human being. And so I said, 'Jon, when's the last time -- if this isn't the first time you thought of suicide -- when's the time you thought about it prior to this," Turner said.
According to Turner, Martin said he had thought about suicide just three months earlier.
"He said, 'Three months ago at my dad's house in California and I was sitting on my dad's coach,'" Turner explained. "I said, 'Does your dad have a gun, Jon?' He said, 'Yeah.' I said, 'Did you you have it in your hands?' He said, 'Yeah.' I said, 'Did you put it up to your head, Jon?' He said, 'Yes.' I told Wells all of this stuff."
"I said, 'Jon, where were you?' And he gave me some BS answer. And I said, 'No, you're going to tell me where you were,'" Turner recalled. "He said, 'I was sitting in my apartment on the 16th story looking out the window.' I said, 'What do you mean you were looking at the window, are you saying what I think you're saying?' He said, 'Yeah, I was thinking about jumping.'"
Turner then asked Martin if that was the first time he had ever thought about suicide.
"When somebody says that to you, there's a whole new realm you're in with that human being. And so I said, 'Jon, when's the last time -- if this isn't the first time you thought of suicide -- when's the time you thought about it prior to this," Turner said.
According to Turner, Martin said he had thought about suicide just three months earlier.
"He said, 'Three months ago at my dad's house in California and I was sitting on my dad's coach,'" Turner explained. "I said, 'Does your dad have a gun, Jon?' He said, 'Yeah.' I said, 'Did you you have it in your hands?' He said, 'Yeah.' I said, 'Did you put it up to your head, Jon?' He said, 'Yes.' I told Wells all of this stuff."
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25185246/ex-dolphins-coach-bashes-ted-wells-says-jonathan-martin-was-suicidal
"Independent investigator my ass."
"Independent investigator my ass."
"Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"Harry Hooper said:
Right. All of those affected would immediately stipulate to "Wells as Advocate". When the dust settles, ours should be the voice of reason.lambeau said:
Peter King on Florio tonight said a deal would involve some penalty moderation in return for dropping all litigation--I think most here agree that's fine for Kraft, unlikely fine for TB.
Rudy Pemberton said:
My first reaction was that Kraft or someone with the Pats knows something or has serious dirt on the NFL... or that the NFL knows that they've fucked up royally and don't want all the details out there of how bad they screwed things up.
DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
This pretty much hits the nail on the head for me and it seems like a gigantic hurdle. There is no way that Brady is going to take any deal that doesn't exonerate him of 99.9% of the "guilt" but it will pretty much be impossible for Goodell to make such a deal and reduce the Pat's penalties without everyone thinking Kraft clipped his nuts. And there is no way Goodell willingly lets it look like he's been neutered. Each side has pretty much backed themselves into such a corner that lets everyone save face.
There will be a settlement precluding any pounds of flesh. Johnny Flyover will gnash his teeth and tell his buddies that those Cheatriots got away with another one. Goodell will remain commissioner.
Sportsbstn said:
Given that the litigation context is horrendously bad for Pats and unfavorable for Brady, that speaks to one or both of NFL knowing the report is a piece of crap, or Kraft having the goods on Goodell.