#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
Remember when we thought that when the Pats played the Jets late in 2007? That ended up being an ugly low scoring game that included one of Brady's worst performances of the season. I think people put a little too much stock into this kind of stuff. Same with the "OMG this team is pissed, they're going to kill the Seahawks" line of thinking. It can help, but it's a very minor factor after kickoff.Turrable said:
Speaking of possible protocols, has there been a single interview with ex-officials to determine exactly what the required ball inspection protocol consists of? Since that would involve facts and data as opposed to wild opionionating, I'm guessing "no". Oh if ONLY there ex-officials working for media organizations who could be queried on this....
That's going to be great. No chance BB would ever call off the dogs in that game. Hope it's an NBC game so Tony Dungy can cry.Turrable said:
Turrable said:
Ridiculous comment. I am more excited for the coming Super Bowl than I have been for a bowl in decades.
Again, I questioned the fairness of disciplining the refs, not whether the NFL would go ahead and make them the scapegoats here. it's even more unfair if the message the league has been sending to the officials is "make the QBs happy."
Where does this "message" your speaking of come from? The league has already "made them happy" by allowing the QB's to prepare the balls to their personal preference. The practice of making sure those balls fall into the proper pre game PSI would (if anything) make the QBs unhappy if they where adjusted after being found over or under inflated.
I'm not looking for anyone's head here, but with a big deal that this has become, what will the league do if it is determined that the ref didn't properly conduct the pre game ball checks? The Pats are under huge scrutiny here that may or may not be deserved. Certainly if found guilty of what they have been accused of there will likely be a combination of fines, lost draft picks or suspensions and righty so. If it's determined that proper pre game PSI checks weren't determined then what? Oopsy?
Where does this "message" your speaking of come from? The league has already "made them happy" by allowing the QB's to prepare the balls to their personal preference. The practice of making sure those balls fall into the proper pre game PSI would (if anything) make the QBs unhappy if they where adjusted after being found over or under inflated.
I'm not looking for anyone's head here, but with a big deal that this has become, what will the league do if it is determined that the ref didn't properly conduct the pre game ball checks? The Pats are under huge scrutiny here that may or may not be deserved. Certainly if found guilty of what they have been accused of there will likely be a combination of fines, lost draft picks or suspensions and righty so. If it's determined that proper pre game PSI checks weren't determined then what? Oopsy?
Kull said:
Not to mention the oft-posted, oft-referenced SI/Peter King video of the refs in action.E5 Yaz said:
E5 Yaz said:
Per Daopoulos:
"they are suppose to check each ball with a pressur gauge".
Still curious if that's a written requirement or a "suggested practice". If the former, it wopuld be nice to have the process published somewhere.
https://twitter.com/RefereeJimD/status/557766104995880962
YTF said:
I keep banging my head against the wall that the media won't make some of these points that seem so apparent.
The entire notion there is some sacrosanct magic of the 12.5 to 13.5 range is absurd. Balls are not played at the same psi throughout the league every week. You could take three identical balls, inflate them to the identical pressure, in the exact same manner, in locker rooms with identical conditions, using exactly the same gauge, and it wouldn't matter. If you play with those three balls in Green Bay, Denver, and San Diego on a January weekend, there is a dramatic difference in psi among the balls. This is not a matter of debate. It's a matter of the laws of nature. And if the Denver QB likes the ball starting at 12.5 and the San Diego QB likes the ball starting at 13.5, you're talking about a 3 psi difference in what they are actually playing with on game day. How can anyone take the notion that there is a magic league mandated 1 psi range that matters seriously?
The entire rule and the entire solemn procedure by which referees measure the balls in a locker room 2.5 hours before the game to make sure they are in a 1 lb. band only ensures one thing. The balls, at that moment, will be in that 1 lb. band. It has only modest relevance to what the balls will actually be PLAYED at. I firmly believe that this is a fact that virtually nobody understood until this week. Everyone has been assuming that the pressure stayed the same or that the changes are only modest. In truth, every 25 to 30 degrees or so (Sumner is it linear?) affects the ball by as much as 1 psi.
DrewDawg, thanks for being concerned over my skills here. The quote function as well as some of the other features here no longer work for me. A few others have the same issue and there doesn't seem to be an easy fix for it. Doing the best I can with what I have.
E5 Yaz said:
The context of the discussion is whether the NFL is looking to discipline the officials. If pressure gauge testing is a written requirement of the job, and it's not performed, that means one thing. If it's a "time honored practice" that isn't in writing, failure to comply has completely different ramifications.
I'm just curious as to which it is.
DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
Because the media aren't playing to the audience of people who want to think very hard about it. They're playing to an audience that wants to engage in the good guys v bad guys debate. Critical thinking has long taken a backseat in discourse, primarily because critical thinking does move the ratings and page-view buttons as quickly.
He also said that no records, in his experience, are kept of the PSI numbers.E5 Yaz said:
https://twitter.com/refereejimd/status/559192770368110592
Hoya81 said:
This is unsurprising. Even if refs check to make sure that bats weigh a legal amount or that lacrosse pockets aren't too deep, they don't go write down exactly what specifications they came in at and keep a detailed log. They just test to make sure stuff's in compliance and move on.
My underlying hope is that if I, as a fan am absolutely rip shit pissed about all this, BB, TB and the Patriot players and coaches are even more so. No matter what the outcome of the investigation the Patriots will be cheaters in the minds of many in NFL Nation. I mean they already were since SpyGate to many. It's amazing to me the perception of that infraction by so many is only about taping the practice as "reported" by fat ass Tomase which he retracted. But no one remembers that.
If there was a smoking gun, it would have been public now.
Since the Bears equipment manager is handling all the game balls, the venue is set for a complete ass whooping by the Patriots, as any perception the Patriots can tamper with the balls is gone. The SB referee is the same guy who ref'd the Ravens /Pats game 2 weeks ago, which I find reassuring as he handled the player subs appropriately.
The bear has been poked... and bears kill messy.
edit.. misspelled Tomase.. F him.
If there was a smoking gun, it would have been public now.
Since the Bears equipment manager is handling all the game balls, the venue is set for a complete ass whooping by the Patriots, as any perception the Patriots can tamper with the balls is gone. The SB referee is the same guy who ref'd the Ravens /Pats game 2 weeks ago, which I find reassuring as he handled the player subs appropriately.
The bear has been poked... and bears kill messy.
edit.. misspelled Tomase.. F him.
Jay Glazer @JayGlazerhttps://twitter.com/JayGlazer · 3h3 hours ago
Yes whatever happened should've been handled already to spare us this ridiculousness. Regardless of where u stand on it, it's gotten foolish
Yes whatever happened should've been handled already to spare us this ridiculousness. Regardless of where u stand on it, it's gotten foolish
(The below post is best read while humming the Battle Hymn of the Republic)
That BB is a one in a million coach that might be able to successfully prepare his team despite the media sh*tstorm is entirely irrelevant to me.
At this point, the inaction of the NFL is directly tampering with the end result of the super bowl.
I have no reasonable expectation that the SB officiating crew will be impartial.
I have no faith in the NFL's ability to unambiguously define its current quality control practices, or lack thereof
I have no faith in the NFLs ability to do the right thing, act with integrity, and make promptly rectifying the wrongs a top priority.
The only one that has acted with integrity in this entire mess is Bill Belichick, and a select few who are not baselessly condemning the Patriots
To pretend that Goodell and the NFL are not meticulously calculating a response based off the resonance of its' own actions and inactions is absolutely insane.
There is a direct correlation between what the NFL submits to the press, what it omits to the press, and how the press and general public responds.
This is outright manipulation and tarnishes the SB a hell of a lot more than a football's PSI, be it from Indy, the officiating crew, or even the NEP.
"getting it right this time" would have been Monday morning, the day after the media storm started- "no PSI recordings? let us implement them!"
instead, everyone that hears or reads the news is long since down the rabbit hole, from which some shall never return...
(Edit: i have a 2 year old who does not yet understand how important this is)
That BB is a one in a million coach that might be able to successfully prepare his team despite the media sh*tstorm is entirely irrelevant to me.
At this point, the inaction of the NFL is directly tampering with the end result of the super bowl.
I have no reasonable expectation that the SB officiating crew will be impartial.
I have no faith in the NFL's ability to unambiguously define its current quality control practices, or lack thereof
I have no faith in the NFLs ability to do the right thing, act with integrity, and make promptly rectifying the wrongs a top priority.
The only one that has acted with integrity in this entire mess is Bill Belichick, and a select few who are not baselessly condemning the Patriots
To pretend that Goodell and the NFL are not meticulously calculating a response based off the resonance of its' own actions and inactions is absolutely insane.
There is a direct correlation between what the NFL submits to the press, what it omits to the press, and how the press and general public responds.
This is outright manipulation and tarnishes the SB a hell of a lot more than a football's PSI, be it from Indy, the officiating crew, or even the NEP.
"getting it right this time" would have been Monday morning, the day after the media storm started- "no PSI recordings? let us implement them!"
instead, everyone that hears or reads the news is long since down the rabbit hole, from which some shall never return...
(Edit: i have a 2 year old who does not yet understand how important this is)
This is exactly right and what our media has become, especially with social media now. It's all about ratings. They take a side and run with it, especially politically. People that agree and disagree with them will both react passionately, which will drive up ratings and clicks. If they play it down the middle and give all the facts, no one will give a fuck and they will get 0 ratings. This story has way more people that want the pats to burn, so it's no surprise most of the media is taking that side.E5 Yaz said:
Listen. Integrity is the name of the game here. ESPN knows that. That's why they've been so vicious all week.
Once something is submitted, that's it. You can't change, tamper, or otherwise modify what you've submitted. If you were to, at any time, modify what you turned in after the fact? Even if your actual performance isn't any better, the perception that it improved your performance is key. You can't skirt around that. You're not being honest, and your organization has less integrity than we can measure. You've broken the trust your fans have in your product, and can't believe anything you say moving forward. So once modification is proved, only the harshest punishment awaits.
Which is why I'm really looking forward to Chad Ford being shitcanned for going back and modifying his prior years' draft boards to make himself look like more of an expert in hindsight.
Once something is submitted, that's it. You can't change, tamper, or otherwise modify what you've submitted. If you were to, at any time, modify what you turned in after the fact? Even if your actual performance isn't any better, the perception that it improved your performance is key. You can't skirt around that. You're not being honest, and your organization has less integrity than we can measure. You've broken the trust your fans have in your product, and can't believe anything you say moving forward. So once modification is proved, only the harshest punishment awaits.
Which is why I'm really looking forward to Chad Ford being shitcanned for going back and modifying his prior years' draft boards to make himself look like more of an expert in hindsight.
Hoya81 said:
This protocol discussion also has me wondering about a statement from Bill's last press conference. "We give the balls to the refs and ask them to set them at 12.5". Until that moment, everything we had heard or seen indicated that the refs followed a pass-fail test. Between 12.5 and 13.5, pass. Anything else, inflate/deflate.
I'm assuming he wouldn't say it if it wasn't true (far too easy to ask refs around the league if this standard procedure with balls rec'd from the Pats). But it certainly indicates that the whole pre-game ball process is not very rigid.
Great post. I feel the same way and it's why I can't look away.DennyDoyle said:
I also keep waiting for the aha moment when people realize that, if they inflated underinflated balls to 13 psi during halftime OUTSIDE at 50 degrees, those balls would then likely test as overinflated according to the very same procedures they tested under 2.5 hours before the game.
This shows what a farce the range in the rule is.
(Which is of course compounded by the farce presuming any guilt on anyones part without complete information, which I am guilty of in having assumed the Pats submitted underinflated footballs for pregame inspection, which isn't even against the rules and who knows or who cares if they did.)
This may be a stupid question, but is it possible the Referee Locker room, or the place where the footballs are inspected, has some sort of video equipment in it? I've never been the catacombs of the stadium, and not sure the extent to which there are cameras in any of these areas.
Helmet Head said:
As a corollary to this, think about the immediate reaction of several media types to the Belichick press conference. The dominant responses were, "He mentioned Cousin Vinny" and "What about the Colts footballs?" Neither response takes very long to come up with, but both play to the surface mentality of following a story in today's media. Even someone usually on point like Jay Bilas asked the Colts question immediately afterward.
The length and depth of BB's statement isn't going to be fact-checked in a professional manner. First, the AP fact-check stories rarely get used off the wire and more rarely than that get read. Next, the majority of the public interested in this case wants a very simple nugget to focus on. Most of us didn't like science when we had to take it in high school; we're not going to try to figure it out now. Finally, it's far easier to trot out Bill Nye for 3 minutes than it is to do actual reporting.
We're stuck with this story. If you don't believe the NFL wants this to have stretched out this far -- to take the focus off the league's other woes, and to "punish" the Pats without having to find them guilty -- then you missed the not so subtle message in BB's statement. He was telling the NFL to put up or shut up. They won't, of course. They'll stretch this into the dead zone between the Super Bowl and the draft, when they'll hope that fans (particular NE fans) are focused on baseball
Belichick's rubdown explanation provides cover to the refs - he's targeted the NFL front office and whomever raised the stink in the first place.
Kull said:
I take his "instruction" to the refs of setting them to 12.5 to mean that if they have to make any adjustments, they'd prefer the balls to be inflated to the low end of the target spectrum. Basically, the team's only request of the officials is that they don't inflate/deflate the balls to a 13.5 PSI target.
It did two things. It provided cover for the refs,and it provided a defensible explanation as to why the Patriots' balls would drop more psi in cold weather than the Colts' balls.Chuck Schilling said:
Edit: he also said whatever they do to the balls
only raises it one psi and his quarterbacks can't notice the difference with one psi. It was a great performance.
Actually, this is not true. In the 80's and early 90's they did journalism often and well. Their Outside The Lines show on Nike shoes secretly made in Vietnam, for example, was great journalism. Then Michael Jordan happened and they found out that all they had to do was ride him for big ratings (and not piss off potential sponsors and broadcast partners) and the ratings and the money were even better. Journalism made them no money and hurt their strategic interests, so journalism with a capital J has been dropped long ago and isn't coming back.Red(s)HawksFan said:
This is what pissed me off the most about the questions he was asked yesterday. Instead of trying to get helpful clarifications like asking him precisely what he meant when he said that they ask the officials to inflate the balls to 12.5, the reporters were more interested in dumb spygate questions.Red(s)HawksFan said:
Yes. BB implored the press repeatedly on this. He repeatedly said he's just telling everyone what they found and that they should try it for themsleves.E5 Yaz said:
24 hours later, no takers.
(Among the networks and other big outlets, at least.)
YTF said:
Your second sentence partly answers your first. Plus, as I mentioned before there's seemingly no evidence that officials were ever evaluated on ball inflation or given specific "point of emphasis' instructions about it. As DennyDoyle'sBoil just posted, the NFL doesn't treat the 13.0 PSI target +/- 0.5 as a critical principle in games.
YTF said:
No, you can refer the whole matter of ball inflation to the Competition Committee, who over the summer could explore options such as 1) reaffirming the current PSI guideline and strengthening enforcement of same, 2) expanding the rulebook range to something like 11.5-14.0 PSI, or 3) start parking balls on a ready rack on the sidelines with pressure gauges sticking out of them all reading one figure (e.g., 13.0 PSI) at all points of the game.
Also, if I was at BB's presser I would have asked for any evidence they actually did any of the tests they say they did. Video, photos, raw test result data, anything. I'm surprised no one asked him to show his work since they all assume he's a cheater.
On my phone so can't verify, but I recall he mentioned that the media could see the data if they wanted.ifmanis5 said:
ifmanis5 said:
Even if you are a "white list" journalist, why not ask for the data? Any number of stories could be written using it, and it would be something different from the mindless tweeting of opinions. Could somebody from our own illustrious Football Central make an official request?
Has anyone seen this article in Forbes? http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2015/01/25/the-nfl-will-conclude-belichick-and-brady-did-not-cheat/?partner=yahootix
What are your two contacts that were completely independent of each other saying now? You know, the ones who said the NFL was leaning toward suspensions.TheoShmeo said:
They should have asked for the methods he used and then they should have tried to replicate. This is of course asking way to much. Better to speculate ignorantly while waiting for the NFL's investigation.kartvelo said:
Does anyone have a read yet on the final press conference question? It was a follow up on whether the Pats would do anything differently in the future and for the SB. Belichick didn't want to speculate on that because league guidance on allowed protocols for ball prep moving forward is necessary (since doing what all teams do every game seems to be suspect suddenly).
I was guessing he was saying "that's an important question" to how Pats footballs can or will be prepped for the SB, but can't make out the question and didn't see it in the posted transcript.
If you believe the "Tonya Harding" effect applies here, this will goose the Super Bowl interest/ratings in a major way.
So they didn't cheat, but fine them anyway. Would be weak imo.Saints Rest said:
Also, here's a trolly article towards the Jets from Curran that is maybe a bit interesting. How long until we hear about Clockgate, whatever that means?
http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/jets-connection-appearing-deflategate-probe
It's not like the Super Bowl needs help in the ratings but totally agree.Harry Hooper said:
I'd also guess that if the Seahawks are ahead people will stay tuned in but if the Pats are ahead I'd expect a tune out factor.
Flip Flop Florio picking up on the Jets angle as well and now laying most of the blame on the NFL: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/25/nfl-bears-plenty-of-blame-for-deflategate/
So, we could have an extremely interesting development here, if this is true:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/25/nfl-bears-plenty-of-blame-for-deflategate/
Gee, I wonder why the one ball that was in the Colts possession was more underinflated than the other ten...
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/25/nfl-bears-plenty-of-blame-for-deflategate/
Gee, I wonder why the one ball that was in the Colts possession was more underinflated than the other ten...