Right, Brady seems to be the ultimate "I'll prove you wrong" type of guy; proving to everyone that he could win without BB would be the final feather in his career cap.Your probably right. As I admitted he is a smart guy and seen lots of stuff (like all the stuff you mention).
Though Emotions are a hell of a drug.
The ESPN hot takes drive them even more bughouse. It's back to Easy Listening with WSSH til Monday.As opposed to any other week?
But they stayed together for the sake of the kids.If Brady wanted to leave he didn't need to do the dozens of contract restructures.
If BB wanted to replace him he'd have kept JG, or spent a draft choice on another potential replacement.
Both sides had multiple chances to split apart.
I'm sure he knows that year in, year out, New England represents his best chance to win. He does, unless he's completely lying, have a tremendous amount of respect for Belichick and knows he has an absolutely all-time great coach. But he's a man with an ego, and he's not stupid, and I'm sure he understands that he is the single biggest on-field reason why the Patriots are so good, year in and year out.Not sure I buy this. He has seen a HoF QB in Big Ben not in a Super Bowl since 2010, not having won since 2008. Another HoF Rodgers hasn't won a Super Bowl since 2010. So many of these other title teams have not had long-term success (Broncos, Seahawks, Ravens, Giants). I think he realizes how unique of an environment he is in. Maybe if he saw another potential great coach out there he could buy that he would win elsewhere, but I don't think he believes he could take his talents anywhere and win like say LeBron.
The fact that Brady is not available until 2020 makes it unlikely that the Vikings would do that.I'm sure he knows that year in, year out, New England represents his best chance to win. He does, unless he's completely lying, have a tremendous amount of respect for Belichick and knows he has an absolutely all-time great coach. But he's a man with an ego, and he's not stupid, and I'm sure he understands that he is the single biggest on-field reason why the Patriots are so good, year in and year out.
I'm sure he could look at, say, the Texans or Jaguars or Vikings, with all that talent, and think, "I could win a Super Bowl with those teams." Now whether those teams would give up their QBs for a year or two of Brady is unclear, so I'm sure part of his calculation is whether the teams he could win with actually would go after him. But if I'm Minnesota, I'd think long and hard about dealing Cousins for some good draft picks (and at this point, he'd bring back a nice haul), signing Brady, and making a run. That would be a hell of a team with the added draft picks and Brady at the helm.
Talking to Theo's sources, huh?Reports last year indicated that this is the last year of his contract, so maybe he envisioned going a certain length. Or he might go somewhere else for a few years or just call it quits. I was thinking Giants if they had drafted a QB, but nope.
Just a hunch.
Funny, I take the exact opposite take on the bolded. I think we're above #hottakez and yet we waste so much time discussing them. Pardon me if you think it's foolish to be jaded about the media in this town in general and more specifically about this team. If you want to buy into Wickersham or Curran, knock yourself out; but I think its kind of silly to criticize people that aren't joining you in lighting your hair on fire. Pardon our lack of irrationality.O'Connor's book is undeniably salacious and headline-grabbing.
That said, the persistent cries of "FAKE NEWS" w/r/t everything regarding the Patriots' drama with Belichick/Brady/Kraft/Gronk/Jimmy G/Guerrero on this board are tired and beneath the posting quality expected here. It's pretty clear at this point that the general gist of last year's Seth Wickersham story--that Belichick is beginning to wear on Brady et al--is true and has been confirmed by multiple writers, including Curran.
I know we'd all like to imagine everything is hunky dory in Patriot Place -- and maybe they will all act like adults and get thru Brady's final years in one piece. But I'd prefer if we dispensed with the argument that this is entirely a media-driven controversy.
It’s not really a hot take at this point; it’s pretty clear there’s been significant friction between Belichick and Brady in the past year and maybe more. Kraft, Reiss, and Brady have all acknowledged it, so you don’t need to bring the talking heads’ views into it to reach the conclusion. It’s equally as obvious they have the ability to work through it, though where it stands now and how long things can last if there still is is anybody’s guess.Funny, I take the exact opposite take on the bolded. I think we're above #hottakez and yet we waste so much time discussing them. Pardon me if you think it's foolish to be jaded about the media in this town in general and more specifically about this team. If you want to buy into Wickersham or Curran, knock yourself out; but I think its kind of silly to criticize people that aren't joining you in lighting your hair on fire. Pardon our lack of irrationality.
One thing I do know is I'm certainly not going to give a second thought to Ian O'Connor trying to pedal a book; the guy is a fucking joke and I don't believe for a second he has any real sources here.
A national writer - who bathed in the Deflategate hysteria - wrote a book slamming BB and including a quote from (paraphrasing) "an unnamed Patriots assistant coach who claims 'if you gave us the 15th best QB in the league, we'd still have done what we did", but yeah, I shouldn't be skeptical. Totally on me for not sounding the alarms.It’s not really a hot take at this point; it’s pretty clear there’s been significant friction between Belichick and Brady in the past year and maybe more. Kraft, Reiss, and Brady have all acknowledged it, so you don’t need to bring the talking heads’ views into it to reach the conclusion. It’s equally as obvious they have the ability to work through it, though where it stands now and how long things can last if there still is is anybody’s guess.
If you don’t want to believe Kraft, Reiss, and Brady, that’s up to you. I don’t really care about the drama at this point, but it’s abundantly clear there have been some issues the past couple years. They’ve likely been overstated and sensationalized by the media, and I’m sure some elements are just plain false, but there’s been tension. It’s quite natural, too. They’ve been a team for 18 years and, if players are to be believed, playing for Belichick is mentally and physically exhausting. And we know how Brady is with Guerrero, which I imagine is no walk in the park for Belichick.A national writer - who bathed in the Deflategate hysteria - wrote a book slamming BB and including a quote from (paraphrasing) "an unnamed Patriots assistant coach who claims 'if you gave us the 15th best QB in the league, we'd still have done what we did", but yeah, I shouldn't be skeptical. Totally on me for not sounding the alarms.
I don’t see where we are disagreeing? Maybe just if I didn’t use ‘#hottakez’?If you don’t want to believe Kraft, Reiss, and Brady, that’s up to you. I don’t really care about the drama at this point, but it’s abundantly clear there have been some issues the past couple years. They’ve likely been overstated and sensationalized by the media, and I’m sure some elements are just plain false, but there’s been tension. It’s quite natural, too. They’ve been a team for 18 years and, if players are to be believed, playing for Belichick is mentally and physically exhausting. And we know how Brady is with Guerrero, which I imagine is no walk in the park for Belichick.
Who really cares, though? They work through it and have forged probably the greatest dynasty in NFL history. Worse things have happened.
Is this really going to get buried?Speaking of shitty reporters Bob Kravitz was canned
11 of 12 people saw it and laughed.Is this really going to get buried?
...on second thought, perhaps that's exactly what he deserves.
My sources are not involved and have no opinion on this, but are more annoyed than they should be over two Toilet losses.This every-year farce is to the point that I’m pretty sure this is an inside job used as a unifying motivational tactic by someone within the organization. TheoShmeo’s sources who are always wrong but love to stir the pot are definitely involved.
So, like others have said, there are some kernels of probably-truth buried among the hype and games of telephone played by morons (the sportswriters, not you guys). What rang true for me was this:O'Connor's book is undeniably salacious and headline-grabbing.
That said, the persistent cries of "FAKE NEWS" w/r/t everything regarding the Patriots' drama with Belichick/Brady/Kraft/Gronk/Jimmy G/Guerrero on this board are tired and beneath the posting quality expected here. It's pretty clear at this point that the general gist of last year's Seth Wickersham story--that Belichick is beginning to wear on Brady et al--is true and has been confirmed by multiple writers, including Curran.
I know we'd all like to imagine everything is hunky dory in Patriot Place -- and maybe they will all act like adults and get thru Brady's final years in one piece. But I'd prefer if we dispensed with the argument that this is entirely a media-driven controversy.
Bolding is mine, because... felt appreciated? That's simply not how Belichick operates. He is extreme, bizarre even by NFL head coach standards, in the extent to which he exhibits no ego. He doesn't care if he's liked or hated, feared or loved (and doesn't have to). He doesn't have hobbies outside of football. He barely has things he likes - he likes Linda, a few close friends, and sitting in his boat staring at the waves. All of that pales in comparison to the extent that he is obsessed by thinking about and planning for the next football game. Even when that's next season, 7 months away. He's a monomaniac, for all intents and purposes. Even though he said otherwise on camera in 2009, it seems he'd be fully happy to die on the treadmill watching film or reading scouting reports.Asked by broadcaster Jim Gray in late April if he felt appreciated by Belichick and owner Robert Kraft (with whom the quarterback maintains a close relationship), Brady responded, "I plead the Fifth! ... Man, that is a tough question."
I have a bit of a theory regarding the "appreciated... plead the 5th" issue. If you remember, in Tom v. Time, it was Giselle who said he wants to feel appreciated.Bolding is mine, because... felt appreciated? That's simply not how Belichick operates.
I can believe this. And honestly, winning-is-everything just isn't for everyone. Personally, I'd be fine if my company was third in market share if it was a great place to work and I loved being there. I don't have to "win" all the time. It's not sports but it's the same principle. There are some players who want to win above all else and are willing to be "all football, all the time, remorselessly" guys, and there are others who say, "Yeah, winning matters to me but I want the freedom to speak out, I want to have more enjoyment at my job so winning isn't EVERYTHING".Silly me. I do have a source on this, albeit one that is indirect.
Several Giant players live on a temporary or quasi permanent basis near me in an apartment building just off route 3 and about five miles away from Met Life Stadium called the Avenue. Nate Solder lived there this summer.
In any event, a good friend bumped into Solder in a nearby park and Solder was very forthcoming. He said that he left the Pats not because of money (believe that if you wish) but rather because as much as he appreciated Bill’s greatness and winning, he was tired of the joylessness of it all and Bill never really appreciating him. He said that the kindness they showed him around his son was the only time he really saw a human side. BB says on Day 1 of TC that players should be prepared to have no life outside of football until after the last game.
Solder wasn’t able to do that anymore.
Cue the jokes, I know. I thought this was interesting and could bear on how Tom thinks now. Not that Solder said anything along those lines about Brady to my friend.
Silly me. I do have a source on this, albeit one that is indirect.
Several Giant players live on a temporary or quasi permanent basis near me in an apartment building just off route 3 and about five miles away from Met Life Stadium called the Avenue. Nate Solder lived there this summer.
In any event, a good friend bumped into Solder in a nearby park and Solder was very forthcoming. He said that he left the Pats not because of money (believe that if you wish) but rather because as much as he appreciated Bill’s greatness and winning, he was tired of the joylessness of it all and Bill never really appreciating him. He said that the kindness they showed him around his son was the only time he really saw a human side. BB says on Day 1 of TC that players should be prepared to have no life outside of football until after the last game.
Solder wasn’t able to do that anymore.
Cue the jokes, I know. I thought this was interesting and could bear on how Tom thinks now. Not that Solder said anything along those lines about Brady to my friend.
It’s true. The guy who spoke with him is a Pats fan and good friend who I watch several games with every season, has no reason to lie and recounted the entire discussion to me the day after it happened. It’s possible that I muffed something around the edges, but that’s the gist of what Solder said.I have no problem with the Nate Solder story (if, indeed, it's true - bit of a game of telephone here). Dude put up with the roughest, most intense regime for sports that we can imagine, for 7 years. Frankly, I'm amazed more long-term Patriots don't burn out before they're cast aside. You'd think Hightower, McCourty et al would be candidates, and yet, here they are.
Seven years is a long time to spend with any boss, frankly. We are seeing players get sick of "player's coaches" in Seattle and Pittsburgh, arguably to an even greater degree than we see it in New England. I think it's a rare breed that can stay with a team for two full contracts, especially in NE, and the constant roster churn partly reflects a need to get in new blood who will be eager to work while moving on from players who might be getting sick of the program.I have no problem with the Nate Solder story (if, indeed, it's true - bit of a game of telephone here). Dude put up with the roughest, most intense regime for sports that we can imagine, for 7 years. Frankly, I'm amazed more long-term Patriots don't burn out before they're cast aside. You'd think Hightower, McCourty et al would be candidates, and yet, here they are.
If i were a GM, i'd be less worried about that and more concerned with the "whole is greater than the sum of the parts" aspect to it. These guys played on a successful team, and they played well but very few of them are "worth" the contracts they get on the FA market.Solder and Butler have both had brutal starts to the season, fwiw. I know I’d be reluctant to pay big money to a Patriots player and put him into a relatively lax environment, because I’d be afraid after years of constant stress and work, they’d have a penchant to enjoy themselves a bit too much.
How many Pats have left in free agency for big if relatively significant money and ended up being worth it? Samuel? I’m sure I am missing more. (I don’t count trades because players are often in contract years, which serve as fine incentive to work.)
Welker? Vinatieri? Talib? But yes, the list is not long. Not sure if that’s because the Pats guess right or because NFL free agency is a disaster in general.How many Pats have left in free agency for big if relatively significant money and ended up being worth it? Samuel? I’m sure I am missing more. (I don’t count trades because players are often in contract years, which serve as fine incentive to work.)
FWIW, I don't doubt your friend at all. I can believe Solder wanted a different environment, probably for many reasons that were subjective rather than objective. Which is OK. But given that this was his first, last, and only opportunity at a big payday, and given the likely gap between what he was going to get from the Pats to what he did get from the Giants (probably $10-$15M in guaranteed coin if not more), then it seems as likely that money was reason 1A for his decision. And I'm perfectly OK with that.It’s true. The guy who spoke with him is a Pats fan and good friend who I watch several games with every season, has no reason to lie and recounted the entire discussion to me the day after it happened. It’s possible that I muffed something around the edges, but that’s the gist of what Solder said.
As to the comment another poster made about the money issue, I am equally skeptical. My friend felt he was saying that almost as a check the box disclaimer, and the import of the discussion was about his views of Bill and playing in NE.
While I’m here, he said Solder
- was very nice in general and very articulate
- played football catch with my friend’s son and initiated that
- said he would miss his friends on the Pats and definitely had some mixed emotions
- is obviously very family focused and was in that park frequently with his family
- was equally friendly with other of our mutual friends and equally giving of his time
- thinks the world of Brady
Ben Watson is one that has had a productive career worthy of his salary, one that is still going on and so far appears to still be quite productive. We just tend to forget about him for obvious reasons.Solder and Butler have both had brutal starts to the season, fwiw. I know I’d be reluctant to pay big money to a Patriots player and put him into a relatively lax environment, because I’d be afraid after years of constant stress and work, they’d have a penchant to enjoy themselves a bit too much.
How many Pats have left in free agency for big if relatively significant money and ended up being worth it? Samuel? I’m sure I am missing more. (I don’t count trades because players are often in contract years, which serve as fine incentive to work.)
This post reminds me why I get a good laugh whenever a random poster calls out Belichick for being a below average GM.Seems like Solder took a big leap of faith that with a new GM, a new head coach, an O-line that was falling apart, and a possible QB controversy, that the Giants would be a stress-free panacea.
This. Solder can say whatever he wants and maybe he even believes it, but the Pats were not going to come close to matching the money the Giants gave him so it is hard to say he didn't leave over money. The other things are nice and may be factors as well, but as far as I can remember they've never lost a guy who they were willing to pay.As soon as someone leaves money on the table to go somewhere else I’ll believe that the culture is too strict for a lot of guys. At the end of the day it usually comes down to money as the reason that people leave the Patriots. All the other stuff is window dressing.
I'm sure this played a role. But I'll give Theo's friend a pass for not exploring that particular issue in a playground conversation. At the same time, if Solder were asked in a more formal setting, I think he would freely admit to the $$$$$ guarantee as being a large part.As soon as someone leaves money on the table to go somewhere else I’ll believe that the culture is too strict for a lot of guys. At the end of the day it usually comes down to money as the reason that people leave the Patriots. All the other stuff is window dressing.
My TIC post was more reflective of the tangible benefits of $35 million guaranteed to Solder than either a stress free work environment or BB's strengths or weaknesses as a GM.This post reminds me why I get a good laugh whenever a random poster calls out Belichick for being a below average GM.
Understood. I was just making an OT point that the Giants, an organization that everyone thinks is well run, are having some on-field difficulties right now, after enduring a whole lot of difficulties last season. Which should be an example of why the current GM of the Pats really isn't so bad. Again, off topic from this thread, so I'll leave it alone.My TIC post was more reflective of the tangible benefits of $35 million guaranteed to Solder than either a stress free work environment or BB's strengths or weaknesses as a GM.
Not sure Welker was worth it--he had 73 catches, then 49, for about 1200 total yards.Welker? Vinatieri? Talib? But yes, the list is not long. Not sure if that’s because the Pats guess right or because NFL free agency is a disaster in general.
Right. While I can’t believe many people would have cross examined Solder in that context, that friend is particularly not given to confrontation.I'm sure this played a role. But I'll give Theo's friend a pass for not exploring that particular issue in a playground conversation. At the same time, if Solder were asked in a more formal setting, I think he would freely admit to the $$$$$ guarantee as being a large part.
Let's not forget the three or so concussions he got from Peyton hanging him out to dry. Not sure if that may have impacted his stats/post Patriots career.Not sure Welker was worth it--he had 73 catches, then 49, for about 1200 total yards.
And I believe him, and Solder. It's good for Nate that the money wasn't anywhere near equal; made his decision much easier, I bet. And players should always take the money, this is a brutal game. I'm merely thinking that Nate's take may be only his own.Right. While I can’t believe many people would have cross examined Solder in that context, that friend is particularly not given to confrontation.
My guess — and not from any more knowledge than anyone else here has — is that Solder would have left for the Giants if the money was equal for the reasons he mentioned.
Said differently, even if we assume that money was the driver, I think it’s also true that the Pats/Bill stuff also really mattered to him. Otherwise, why discuss it with a Pats fan you meet in a park? Just to give yourself a way to say it wasn’t money? I mean, maybe, but would it sound so bad to tell someone that “it was $35 mm guaranteed and I am now set for life, and that was my last big pay day”? That plays very well to my ears. Not in a TV sound bite but to a regular guy? Seems perfectly fair to me.
Again, I’m sure money was huge and almost certainly the biggest thing. But I don’t discount the other stuff as mattering. My friend did say that Solder was quite animated about it.