Bloom, Cora -- Do they stay or do they go?
- Thread starter moondog80
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I've agreed with this take for a year or two now. An awful lot of people on this board are convinced that Henry is just *dying* to open the purse strings and let Bloom have carte blanche to rebuild the 27 Yankees... and maybe I am wrong, but I don't see it. I think they'll be "in" on Yamamoto and then throw their hands up in the air when he signs with the Yankees or the Dodgers or something. And Henry will shrug his shoulders and go back to pursuing that NBA team in Vegas while the Sox continue to print money.
A lot depends on Henry of course, but I think there's a lot of supposition as to what he is thinking:
"He's checked out."
"Ownership is not interested in spending the way they used to."
Etc.
I'm not saying it's wrong but honestly, we don't know.
"He's checked out."
"Ownership is not interested in spending the way they used to."
Etc.
I'm not saying it's wrong but honestly, we don't know.
This guy gets it. So your guesses are as good as mine.
I voted “Bloom stays, Cora resigns” but I don’t have any strong feeling about Cora resigning vs. being removed. Basically, it would not surprise me if he was gone next year, while it would surprise me if Bloom was.
But it was a close one -- I can just as easily see them running it back one more time. But Cora has just seemed very checked out / uninterested lately. Only so much we can really presume from that, but again… it just wouldn’t surprise me if all parties were ready for a change.
But it was a close one -- I can just as easily see them running it back one more time. But Cora has just seemed very checked out / uninterested lately. Only so much we can really presume from that, but again… it just wouldn’t surprise me if all parties were ready for a change.
"Finishing Last" is a Shaughnessy talking point, nothing more. Why should we care about anything besides "did we make the playoffs?" I think the Sox' place in the AL is what matters, and right now they are tied for 8th of 14 teams. Matches what we see with our own eyes too.
I would imagine, from a business perspective, that a lousy finish and a lot of games played out of contention is more damaging than a team that finished a game out. Just look at all the empty seats on TV. Is the argument that the Red Sox and Royals seasons are the same since the only goal, according to some, is making the playoffs?
Unfortunately there are two different conversations. Some people (fans) will insist on talking solely about this year, whereas I personally think it makes more sense to talk in terms of a longer view, since contenders in baseball take a long time to develop. So to answer your question, that's AN argument, and there are plenty of people who will want to make it, but not me. I'm happy to talk about how close we are to winning a title (answer: not sure but a lot closer than KC).
I voted both stay, and should.
They’ve been contenders one of three “retooling” seasons and suffered bad injury luck in two of them. Not everything has broken right but a lot has, and we have exponentially more long-term resources in the majors and minors than we did three years ago.
The Sox are in a complicated rebuild that’s just about done. I’ve been impatient in previous offseasons, but this coming one and the next are where I really expect them to go all in.
Totally agree that it’s a bad faith talking point, and anyone holding 2020 against the Sox FO deserves a laugh.
They’ve been contenders one of three “retooling” seasons and suffered bad injury luck in two of them. Not everything has broken right but a lot has, and we have exponentially more long-term resources in the majors and minors than we did three years ago.
The Sox are in a complicated rebuild that’s just about done. I’ve been impatient in previous offseasons, but this coming one and the next are where I really expect them to go all in.
Yeah, this is exactly where I am.
I mean, who knows what lurks in the hearts of men and so forth, but everything we understand about the Sox approach when hiring Bloom strongly suggests they'd give him at least one more year to see "the plan" start to bear more fruit. It would take a pretty big shift in direction to give up on the rebuild approach now, I think.
I don't have any particular reason to believe management is unhappy with Cora, but I could see him being something of a sacrificial lamb and/or frankly he may just be burned out and ready to be done after some pretty tough seasons. But, I dunno, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he sticks either.
It WILL surprise me if they don't seriously retool the coaching staff in some fashion. Hard to say exactly where all the defensive problems come from, but trying some fresh blood on the coaching side seems like a pretty obvious way to try for some better results next year. In that light, it's really just a question of whether management thinks Cora is part of the problem or the solution.
Keep Bloom, fire Cora into the sun. Bring on someone that will be a hardass for a year. Maybe they'll un-fuck themselves mentally. I just can't watch another lethargic year of baseball.
This might sound weird, but after the last two seasons I kinda want both of these guys back to either get things right or get fired. One leaving now feels like a copout from ownership. They bought the ticket.
Speaking of the defense, Bloom has gotten a lot of shit about the organizational philosophy punting on defense but he has actually tried to do some stuff about it.
Verdugo and both catchers are defensive pluses. Duran improved. Hernandez was excellent in center and probably would have been fine this season were Story - their big signing, actually healthy. Maybe they slide him to 2b and the middle infield is a strength.
He was locked in with Devers, and Casas was going to be such a massive upgrade over the shit they had, then I can see him not touching that one.
I don't really get the roster construction in terms of Duvall and Yoshida, but Rafaela and Mayer are going to help (as well as Tell).
Verdugo and both catchers are defensive pluses. Duran improved. Hernandez was excellent in center and probably would have been fine this season were Story - their big signing, actually healthy. Maybe they slide him to 2b and the middle infield is a strength.
He was locked in with Devers, and Casas was going to be such a massive upgrade over the shit they had, then I can see him not touching that one.
I don't really get the roster construction in terms of Duvall and Yoshida, but Rafaela and Mayer are going to help (as well as Tell).
If the players are playing lethargically, are we sure it's the manager (who I am guessing has tried to wake them up) who should be fired into the sun? I don't know how any serious player can walk onto the field today and see the level the game is being played at, and not try their hardest at all times, with or without the manager in his ear.
I think Cora is done. He sounds like a defeated man. I have no confidence whatsoever that Bloom will be fired despite deserving it.
I think chances are better than 50/50 that Cora gets fired. I don't see the team's struggles being Cora's fault, but managers always take the fall first.
Bloom will stick around, as he is dutifully carrying out Henry's plan and the team is profitable.
Bloom will stick around, as he is dutifully carrying out Henry's plan and the team is profitable.
I don’t know. I’m just tired of the team playing competitive ball and then just shitting all over themselves constantly while Cora appears to be in half asleep with his head on the dugout wall.
They make mental errors constantly like they’re slacking off - where you watch good teams and they are seemingly engaged and playing hard and excited. With the Sox it feels like they all want to be anywhere else.
And I do feel like that comes down to the manager. I think it’s tough to have the same manager for too long. I wasn’t a fan of Cora coming back in the first place, and nothing he’s done since then has inspired any sort of confidence. 2018 he was a magician, always seemingly one step ahead. I’m not sure if there was cheating involved in that - it’s possible, if not likely. His press conference after the Yankee games in England felt pretty damning about it.
Either way, I think our team as assembled is better than the results. They’re not a first place team (yet) but they’re not the band of morons that I see when I turn on late season games. Something has to give - these are Little League issues on the largest stage. It’s beyond NATSTOWN.
Apologies for the ramble. I just hate this current iteration of Red Sox baseball.
I think there's an evenly split chance between "no change" and "Cora goes but Bloom stays."
2021 was likely neutral or positive for pitchers and hitters. As far as game management, the club squeaked into the post-season, which absolutely counts.
2022 seemed positive re: pitchers, and fairly bad re: hitters. Injury was the real issue, so I'll give this one a bit of a pass as far as making the playoffs.
2023 seems, well, pretty bad re: pitchers, and neutral re: hitters. They had significant injuries, but also flubbed many chances to pick up games against weak clubs. And to me, it's that inconsistency that's damning.
Could they succeed with Cora and a very high talent level club - particularly one with great depth in the pitching staff? Probably. But I also think that they could have done better this year with a different field staff.
I think it's more "Cora and his Staff." At the end of the day the question is how much the field staff maximized the talent level of the club.
2021 was likely neutral or positive for pitchers and hitters. As far as game management, the club squeaked into the post-season, which absolutely counts.
2022 seemed positive re: pitchers, and fairly bad re: hitters. Injury was the real issue, so I'll give this one a bit of a pass as far as making the playoffs.
2023 seems, well, pretty bad re: pitchers, and neutral re: hitters. They had significant injuries, but also flubbed many chances to pick up games against weak clubs. And to me, it's that inconsistency that's damning.
Could they succeed with Cora and a very high talent level club - particularly one with great depth in the pitching staff? Probably. But I also think that they could have done better this year with a different field staff.
Don’t apologize, I agree with you almost across the board. The fact that they’ve been so sloppy so consistently the last two or three seasons feels incredibly odd to me, and not something that I can easily explain. Something just feels wrong with this team in a way that I don’t recall feeling in other .500 or less seasons the Sox have had over the last decade. In 2014 and 15, the talent just largely wasn’t there. I don’t have stats to back that up, but it just feels like the team makes incredibly bone-headed decisions and plays nearly every single game, even when things are going well.
Yeah, I kinda agree with you guys. Is there something off? They played the kind of feisty, quality ball you would hope for them to show at times, but as the season wore on that fell off and the errors kept mounting. It's like they had their head on straight for a while but couldn't sustain it.
Ultimately, though, it might just be that this is what happens when you have a team that has mediocre-to-bad pitching and defense. I’m extremely tired of Chaim’s whole “get guys who are at best OK at a bunch of positions” roster construction. It’s painful to watch, as are the random flotsam and jetsam that makes up too much of the pitching staff.
I'm on team Chaim stays, Cora fired. One fairly small but telling outrage about this season was how seemingly hopeless Tilt went to the Dodgers, who teach him how to make an adjustment to his slider that miraculously transforms him into a light's out reliever. Adding in stuff like Devers' fielding regression and the team's crappy fielding generally indicates the coaching staff couldn't do much of anything right. Also tons and tons of terrible at-bats all season save for a few fleeting stretches. Chaim can at least point to some significant positives like the much improved farm system and acquisitions like Masa, Duvall, Turner, Martin etc. to offset Kluber and other less stellar pick-ups to justify keeping him around.
A legitimate question here, not trying to call anyone out or be snarky.
Is it generally expected that players are terrible defensively, get to the majors and suddenly improve with MLB coaching. Or is it more that players are taught / develop defensively in the minors and it's refined in the majors.
It could very well be the former and I don't know, but I'd think baseline competence defensively is either there or not by the time one reaches the major leagues, not that it's going to be taught at the highest level the game has to offer. But I could be wrong, so I'm genuinely asking.
It is generally accepted that the players are coached better at the MLB level and can improve their fielding with MLB coaching. Many minor league teams only have 2-3 coaches. I find it odd that organizations don't overload the minor league coaching staff like an NFL staff and have a coach for every position. It seems like a very cheap way to get a huge advantage.
I might be talking out of my ass a little bit, but I think it's the latter (the bolded). Like JBJ was always renowned as a glove man, that's what got him into the majors. How much work did the team do to make him better? I'm not sure if it's quantifiable, I bet it's something. But Duran is not a great outfielder, he takes weird reads on the ball, he doesn't have much of an arm, but his speed is so great that any mistakes he makes are easier to overcome. Plus he has tons of data that he can use to be better positioned. Ultimately, I think he's going to have to move to left but I think for right now he's adequate in center.
So basically if you're a very good to great defensive player in the minors, you're going to be better thanks to ML coaching and data. But if you're average defensively, you can be better but you have to really work at it (like Wade Boggs did), or you need something else to outweigh your defensive lapses (hitting or speed).
I've never heard of a guy who was an iron glove throughout the minors all of a sudden start winning Gold Gloves. I mean, I think that even Boggs' defense was passable.
Oh, I'm not saying the coaching isn't better.
I meant more the glaring issues that seem to have been prevalent the past several seasons in various players.
For instance, to the naked eye, it seems both Casas, Duran and Wong have improved defensively. Not to be great players, (excepting Wong) but to be a good bit better than they were. On the other hand, Devers, Valdez, Hernandez (as an IF) and Yoshida just seem to be below average defensive players.
I suppose there is no way to know if they'd have become good defensive players in a place like Atlanta or Houston, or not, but I was genuinely curious (edit - I likewise could be talking out of my a$$ too, but I always thought of it more like @John Marzano Olympic Hero outlined above).
I meant more the glaring issues that seem to have been prevalent the past several seasons in various players.
For instance, to the naked eye, it seems both Casas, Duran and Wong have improved defensively. Not to be great players, (excepting Wong) but to be a good bit better than they were. On the other hand, Devers, Valdez, Hernandez (as an IF) and Yoshida just seem to be below average defensive players.
I suppose there is no way to know if they'd have become good defensive players in a place like Atlanta or Houston, or not, but I was genuinely curious (edit - I likewise could be talking out of my a$$ too, but I always thought of it more like @John Marzano Olympic Hero outlined above).
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Bloom stays and Cora fired. I don't think much of the criticisms of Cora's in game skills, but I think concerns about defense and baserunning may get pinned on him and Bloom will be concerned that a repeat of those types of errors in 2024 will rebound on him.
I generally fall in the camp that managers get a disproportionate share of blame, and that part of the defense and baserunning woes are as attributable to Bloom and the players as to Cora, but I think those are the kinds of things that are relatively easy to pin on a manager, and that's what I think is going to be the difference.
I generally fall in the camp that managers get a disproportionate share of blame, and that part of the defense and baserunning woes are as attributable to Bloom and the players as to Cora, but I think those are the kinds of things that are relatively easy to pin on a manager, and that's what I think is going to be the difference.
For the 7,465th time, a team doesn't "let a player go" if he's a free agent. That means he can explore offers from any and all teams that are interested to maximize his value and/or sign with the team that fits his needs best. That's the player's choice, not the team's. I'm not sure why this is still so hard to comprehend.
I never got when people look at this as black and white. Sure, Bello, Duran etc weren't drafted by Bloom. But he probably had ample opportunity to trade them a lot over the years and didn't. So while Bloom doesn't get credit for drafting these players, he should get SOME credit for holding on to them until they became major parts of the big league club.
I agree 100%. The 2023 team isn't a WS contender, but in my eyes they're far better than a .500 also-ran. They'll click and play hungry for a week, then lapse back into prolonged stretches of boneheaded running and defense and making foolish outs at the plate. I had them pegged for 86 wins, and that looks out of reach at this point.
I think the bolded has a whole lot to do with defensive improvements at the big league level, particularly for outfielders. I think Duran's problem is more related to him not being an outfielder until he turned pro, so he lacks a lot of instincts that guys who've been outfielders since they were kids (like JBJ) have developed over a lot longer time. Some guys are quick studies on that kind of transition (Mookie comes to mind, but Alex Gordon is another example). Some never quite get there.
Regarding Boggs and his reputation coming up, I've heard theories that some of the blame for his rep and a lot of the errors he made as a minor leaguer should go to the quality of fields in the minors. Lots of "snakes in the grass" and such. Not that the infield at Fenway was in any kind of great shape in the Joe Mooney days. I imagine experience helped Boggs in that regard.
I think by "let go," people are really saying "didn't take advantage of the period where we had exclusive negotiating rights."
We can never truly know which players are determined to hit the market and which would be willing to get a deal done just to get it done. We always get various reports on that, and often it's in hindsight as feelings have hardened one way or the other.
There’s also “development” part of “drafting & development” that often gets overlooked. These guys are no where near finished products in baseball more than any other major sport. If more impact players are reaching the majors under Bloom’s system, does it matter if Dombrowski drafted a few of them 4 years ago? They were in low A when he got canned.
Can‘t speak for others, but for myself I absolutely give Bloom credit for holding on to guys from the prior regime, specifically Bello, Casas, Duran and I include Houck here too as I like the player.
However, while I give him credit for that, I equally “discredit” his decisions to hold on to guys like Dalbec, Downs, Mata, Groome (for as long as he did) and Jimenez when he probably had chances to move those players as well.
The question becomes is he going to just hold all his top prospects no matter what, or will he eventually move some for ling term help at the MLB level, and what will his evaluation look like. He has yet to make a call a la Pedro, G38, Beckett, Crisp, VMartinez, Adrian Gonzalez, Bailey, Hoffman, Peavy, Kimbrel or Sale the way his immediate predecessors did.
Ultimately I think the time will come when he does have to make a call on it, but who knows. The only prospect deal of consequence I can think of TB making during this run has been Ryan for Cruz, so maybe he will elect not to make any. In which case boy do I hope he has many more Bello and Casas to his resume and many fewer Mata and Downs on the ledger eventually.
And lighting. I see several games a year at Hadlock in Portland, and even though the lighting has vastly improved in the past few years, it's still midnight compared to MLB lighting. Playing most games at night, I can't help but think that both defense and hitting are improved with the better lighting.
Getting rid of Bloom would be stupid. He's executed basically how he has had to. He was brought in specifically to rebuild the team. If this team sucks after 2025 then there's a conversation to be had there, but right now the farm looks solid and there's a promising future ahead.
I don't think the manager matters at all these days unless they're a complete idiot. Fire or keep Cora, it won't really matter, but I think Cora's been fine given what he has had to work with.
I don't think the manager matters at all these days unless they're a complete idiot. Fire or keep Cora, it won't really matter, but I think Cora's been fine given what he has had to work with.
The bad defense and bad base running is absolutely a coaching issue and one Cora bears responsibility for IMO. Managers can't turn Derek Jeter into Ozzie Smith but they should be able to drill out the kind of stupid baseball we've been subjected to the last 2 seasons.
The one thing to note his that Henry specifically cited the Rays ability to develop pitching as a reason for hiring Bloom. Which makes sense- given how much he paid Sale, Price, Eovaldi, and Porcello in 2019- and how little he got out of them. Have the Sox developed pitching in the past four years, are they trending in the right direction? Have they shown enough progress for Henry? I have no idea, but I think it’s a fair question.
https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/10/28/why-the-red-sox-changed-directions-and-hired-chaim-bloom/
Furthermore, if the goal was to develop pitching, will ownership green light a huge pitcher spending spree that many seem to want? Even if the team doesn’t appear especially ready to compete?
Will be interesting- do they let Bloom go into the last year of his deal without an extension? And Cora?
https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/10/28/why-the-red-sox-changed-directions-and-hired-chaim-bloom/
Furthermore, if the goal was to develop pitching, will ownership green light a huge pitcher spending spree that many seem to want? Even if the team doesn’t appear especially ready to compete?
Will be interesting- do they let Bloom go into the last year of his deal without an extension? And Cora?
I said before the season that ownership would consider a .500 record with progress on the farm as a successful season for Bloom. They would’ve opened the checkbook if they expected this year’s team to win 90 games. So I think Bloom is safe.
I think ownership leaves the decision on Cora up to Bloom, and I have no idea what he’ll decide.
I think ownership leaves the decision on Cora up to Bloom, and I have no idea what he’ll decide.
I think there's a difference between wanting to develop pitching and relying on said development for all the pitching the team needs. Even when the team was developing starting pitching during this ownership tenure, they were paying notable salary for pitching originating from outside the org as well: Beckett, Lackey, Matsuzaka, etc. My sense is that Bloom has a general mandate with regard to the payroll without specific does or don'ts like "no big pitcher contracts". If Bloom can make it work without a significant risk of hamstringing future payrolls with an albatross, he likely has the freedom to do it.
That said, I think Bloom himself is averse to making long commitments to players that carry them to and through their age 37+ seasons. A one or two year commitment to that age range (Turner, Martin, Kluber, Hill, etc) is doable, signing a 30 year old until he's 40 is not something Bloom is keen to do anyway. I mean, if he's not doing it with the homegrown heroes like Bogaerts, he's not doing it for free agents that have no discernible ties to the franchise. I think we're more likely to see him spend crazy money on a short-term deal, Verlander/Scherzer-style (only to guys younger than that) than give into the recent trend of 8-10+ year free agent contracts. The only exception I can see to that is Yamamoto specifically because he's only 25.
Why is this who’s 1-4 in the pecking order even a thing? Bruins 1 Title in 50 years is somehow better than the J-E-T-S? Let’s go back to proven science: can you get a cheap ticket to the game on StubHub?
Bloom gets another year. Cora has his back. And vice versa. Both stay.
Chaim has earned some time. I think the current team is better than it looks, and they’ve been hurt with a lot of injuries and poor play that if they didn’t happen we’d be in the hunt more.
No one’s fault really, you can only have so much depth.
But baseball takes time. Rebuilding takes time, soI think they need to ride Bloom until we see some of these star Kids come up and sink or swim. 2025 seems like the year. If we are still last place then it’s clear he can’t do it.
One is literally as accurate as the other, and that’s so obvious that it actually is a fact.
More to the point, given that @Smiling Joe Hesketh is actually providing greater context by his statement encompassing three of the last four finishes, your version is both less accurate and less precise over that time period, Newsmax.
So are you saying he should be extended?
never mind, after rereading I get your point.
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