Bloom, Cora -- Do they stay or do they go?

[moondog80]

This isn't a debate about what should happen, but you think Henry and Co. will actually do. I'm not sure. Two months ago I thought there was no chance they would fire Bloom. Now, I'm not so sure. His contract only goes for one year beyond this one, it's telling that they haven't extended him yet, but they also haven't fired him yet.

And if Bloom goes, Cora goes. A new GM is always going to want his own guy, and Cora doesn't have the cache to override that. If Bloom stays? I'll give Cora 50/50.

So I'm voting Bloom stays, Cora goes, but really anything other than Cora stays/Bloom goes would not surprise me.

 

[RG33]

I would be completely stunned if either were fired. I think both stay and this conversation is giggled at in 2 years.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I think they both stay, even while staring a 3rd last place finish in 4 years square in the face.

There's no chance Henry makes any changes. By all appearances he is entirely checked out of the baseball operation.

 

[canderson]

I concur: Bloom stays, Cora goes

I see no real way they cut bait on Bloom. While I'm not a fan and believe he has deeply failed roster construction, the team has regressed under Cora (whether directly his fault or due to a failed roster is irrelevant I think) in a way I doubt they believe bringing in new coaches matters.

 

[Big Papi's Mango Salsa]

Can we get an option for:

Bloom stays / Cora resigns (as in "voluntarily leaves"); this is what I think happens.

I don't think there is any chance that Bloom is fired, but I also don't think Cora will want to continue to manage the teams Bloom builds.

 

[moondog80]

Can we get an option for:

Bloom stays / Cora resigns (as in "voluntarily leaves"); this is what I think happens.

I don't think there is any chance that Bloom is fired, but I also don't think Cora will want to continue to manage the teams Bloom builds.

Done.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

I concur: Bloom stays, Cora goes

I see no real way they cut bait on Bloom. While I'm not a fan and believe he has deeply failed roster construction, the team has regressed under Cora (whether directly his fault or due to a failed roster is irrelevant I think) in a way I doubt they believe bringing in new coaches matters.

I agree. Plus Bloom always has the old, "But I never got to pick MY manager, things would totally be different" excuse in his back pocket. I expect him to use it this year and Cora will probably be gone.

Which sucks, because I don't think that Cora should get blamed for this season.

 

[snowmanny]

I’m torn here. I mostly think they both stay and I think I’d keep them both*. But I certainly can see Bloom, in his do or die year, insisting on his own guy.

*edit - I would keep them both but if the team wasn’t qualifying for a playoff spot in mid-July (not this oh gee we can squint and make an argument we should be buyers crap) I’d fire them both.

 

[Sille Skrub]

My option isn't listed. I think Bloom will be fired and Cora will resign.

I've lived here most of my life and can't remember when the interest in the Boston Red Sox was lower. The team is tied for 4th in the local sports pecking order with the Revs. It isn't even an afterthought for diehard family and friend sports fans in the area, on the talk radio airwaves and on local/social media. Bloom will take the fall in management's attempt to regain interest in the team.

 

[YTF]

I agree. Plus Bloom always has the old, "But I never got to pick MY manager, things would totally be different" excuse in his back pocket. I expect him to use it this year and Cora will probably be gone.

Which sucks, because I don't think that Cora should get blamed for this season.

Didn't he bring Cora back? As for the poll, I can't see Bloom being cut free until after next season. I think Cora's back as well, but wouldn't be shocked if he's not.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Didn't he bring Cora back?

I am pretty sure that Cora was foisted on him. Roenicke was a disaster and the reports were that Bloom wanted Sam Fuld to replace him but that Cora was the favorite of the ownership and that's who they wanted.

 

[DadOfFenway]

Can we get an option for:

Bloom stays / Cora resigns (as in "voluntarily leaves"); this is what I think happens.

I don't think there is any chance that Bloom is fired, but I also don't think Cora will want to continue to manage the teams Bloom builds.

Thanks for adding - that is what I picked too... get a sense that Cora is frustrated with Bloom (and maybe ownership) not pushing to compete. Going to say it's a family decision for now... but basically if they had better players could stay but time for a change.

 

[Salem's Lot]

They hired Bloom to rebuild. That takes years. They are not going to fire him while most of the guys from his first draft wouldn’t even be old for AA. Cora I could see resigning to go somewhere that he could see being more competitive in 2024.

 

[Big Papi's Mango Salsa]

Thanks @moondog80 - added in my vote on that option.

FWIW, I agree in many ways with @Sille Skrub in his read on the perception of the Sox in town. They might still be higher than the Bruins in terms of "interest", but if someone really wants to argue for the B's I don't have any stats to back up that I still think the Sox are third and even if they are "slightly more relevant than the Bruins" they shouldn't exactly be hanging banners for that and they are at best an incredibly distant third to the Pats and Celts at this point.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

They hired Bloom to rebuild. That takes years. They are not going to fire him while most of the guys from his first draft wouldn’t even be old for AA. Cora I could see resigning to go somewhere that he could see being more competitive in 2024.

Honest question: so is ownership OK with seeing the major league team repeatedly end up in last place in the meantime?

It's getting late early, as they say.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Cherington and Dombrowksi only got four seasons here, not sure why we’d expect ownership to be much more patient with Bloom.

 

[moondog80]

Honest question: so is ownership OK with seeing the major league team repeatedly end up in last place in the meantime?

Calling them "last place" is accurate, but misleading. It's what Fox News would do if they had an ax to grind but wanted to say "we didn't lie".

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Calling them "last place" is accurate, but misleading. It's what Fox News would do if they had an ax to grind but wanted to say "we didn't lie".

I mean, it would be 3 out of the last 4 years if they finish in last again. And they could well end up below .500 again this year.

It's accurate.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Honest question: so is ownership OK with seeing the major league team repeatedly end up in last place in the meantime?

It's getting late early, as they say.

But it's last place within +/- a handful of games from .500 every time. Toughest division in baseball and all that. Or, would you say last place is last place? I don't know.

 

[Comfortably Lomb]

Hopefully both stay. Certainly at least Bloom, who I think is doing a fantastic job of rebuilding. I mostly think managers can be replaced these days (assuming you're not a moron like Jerry Reinsdorf and still living in the 1980s). Managing the sports media is unfortunately part of existing in Boston though and changing managers is a tool in that toolbox. I'm somewhat comforted by ownership seemingly ignoring the sports media and sports talk fans in recent years though. That's a huge step toward success.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

They would be in 4th place in four other divisions, 2nd in the AL Central. Does that make people feel better? That they are tied for the 17th best team in baseball?

 

[tims4wins]

But it's last place within +/- a handful of games from .500 every time. Toughest division in baseball and all that. Or, would you say last place is last place? I don't know.

Why not just look at it across the AL?

2020 - 13th
2021 - T-4th
2022 - T-9
2023 - T-8

There are 15 teams in the AL. So they've been bottom half of the league in 3 out of 4 years.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Calling them "last place" is accurate, but misleading. It's what Fox News would do if they had an ax to grind but wanted to say "we didn't lie".

What would you call it? I'm not trying to be snarky, but I see this all the time. And I get that there are nuances, the Red Sox aren't the Royals or the A's; but I mean last place in the AL East is last place, right?

Do the Red Sox get anything for being summer school valedictorian?

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

But it's last place within +/- a handful of games from .500 every time. Toughest division in baseball and all that. Or, would you say last place is last place? I don't know.

Last place is last place. Sure, it might be better than their .400 % from their first last place finish under Bloom, or the .481 from their second. It would be a very strange defense of Bloom to say "Well the 3rd time they finished last they had a winning % of .491 so it's not that bad."

YMMV of course.

 

[jezza1918]

Hopefully both stay. Certainly at least Bloom, who I think is doing a fantastic job of rebuilding. I mostly think managers can be replaced these days (assuming you're not a moron like Jerry Reinsdorf and still living in the 1980s). Managing the sports media is unfortunately part of existing in Boston though and changing managers is a tool in that toolbox. I'm somewhat comforted by ownership seemingly ignoring the sports media and sports talk fans in recent years though. That's a huge step toward success.

I was about to post something similar so ill just add one additional thought - while I think Bloom has done well with getting the whole organization on solid ground and deserves another year or two to see the rebuild come to a bit more fruition, if ownership determines (or determines in the near future) that Bloom is NOT the guy to take the major league club to the next level, then Id understand replacing him.

 

[moondog80]

What would you call it? I'm not trying to be snarky, but I see this all the time. And I get that there are nuances, the Red Sox aren't the Royals or the A's; but I mean last place in the AL East is last place, right?

Do the Red Sox get anything for being summer school valedictorian?

I would say that if I wanted to represent the season the Red Sox have had, 73-72 (or, ".500 team", "medicore", etc.) paints a much more accurate picture than "last place". This seems so obvious to me that I'm tempted to say it's a fact.

None of which is to say 73-72 is great accomplishment.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

I don't see any way that Cora resigns. There aren't many of these jobs and he interviewed for plenty before getting this one. There is absolutely no guarantee he gets another one, even less so a contending team. Does he really want to potentially be the next manager of the Rockies?

I also think Cora is way more tied in to the big picture than is generally represented here, and is part of the core team. As for Bloom, I think he easily has one more year. This off-season/next season will be very big for him.

I think they'll both be back.

 

[Max Power]

I'd call them a .500 team. They're not bad and they're not good, just meh. They need to be better than meh and that requires getting some impact players from outside the organization. I don't think Bloom is the guy to do it, so I say both he and Cora are gone after the season.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Last place is last place. Sure, it might be better than their .400 % from their first last place finish under Bloom, or the .481 from their second. It would be a very strange defense of Bloom to say "Well the 3rd time they finished last they had a winning % of .491 so it's not that bad."

YMMV of course.

But they let Xander, Eo and Wacha go. Maybe they're not doing too bad considering the loss of those guys. Or, should Bloom have found a way to keep them, or at least the pitchers?

 

[Harry Hooper]

Unless the Sox are moving out of the AL East soon, last place = last place. Bloom obviously was well aware of which division the team is in when he took the job.

A notable development related to this thread: the Sox are now offering packages to attend games this month of 4 tickets, 4 hot dogs, and 4 drinks for $59, whipping the fandom "horse" to get across the finish line.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

But they let Xander, Eo and Wacha go. Maybe they're not doing too bad considering the loss of those guys. Or, should Bloom have found a way to keep them, or at least the pitchers?

Letting a player go always involves two factors:

- was it smart to let a player go for the salary he eventually got?
- who did they replace them with and how did they perform?

Bloom seems to do alright on the first question. The second question is where he falls flat all the time.

 

[tims4wins]

But they let Xander, Eo and Wacha go. Maybe they're not doing too bad considering the loss of those guys. Or, should Bloom have found a way to keep them, or at least the pitchers?

WTF is this line of argument? Was it not Bloom's decision to let them go? It's literally his job to put together the team. You can't say they're doing well considering they let those guys go. This is bananapants logic

 

[astrozombie]

They're both coming back. 0% Bloom is canned. He has done everything that ownership has asked of him and will continue to do so.

 

[Al Zarilla]

WTF is this line of argument? Was it not Bloom's decision to let them go? It's literally his job to put together the team. You can't say they're doing well considering they let those guys go. This is bananapants logic

Was Bloom squeezed to get rid of too much salary though?

 

[grimshaw]

While the rebuild is going well, and his track record with short term contracts and finding truffles in the rough is great, Bloom's grade is an incomplete at best when the purse strings have been opened (Story, Yoshida, Devers).

The guys he has decided to sign long term to be part of the core need to perform better, and I think that is what will make or break him.

I think he's safe no matter what this season, and Cora and the Sox "mutually part ways."

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

I'm betting Henry & Co. are completely happy with what Bloom is doing. The team was in the hunt until late summer, sort of still in things at Labor Day. The park is pretty full and the beer lines are still long. They have their nice new real estate development deal.

I think with the new playoff structure, ownership is fine with spending what it takes to be basically competitive, make the playoffs occasionally, maybe get hot in October and win another championship. They are not interested in spending the way they used to. Why take the risk financially if a) you're probably not going to win the playoffs anyway and b) the cash flow is still coming from the ballpark? The days of the Sox have a top 3-4 payroll in baseball are over.

I don't like a lot of what Bloom has done - the revolving door of players on one-year contracts, the obsession with guys coming off of injuries, the inability to build a functional pitching staff, the indifference to defense and fundamentals - but I don't ultimately blame him for the franchise's drift in recent years. That's Henry's decision.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

I don't like a lot of what Bloom has done - the revolving door of players on one-year contracts, the obsession with guys coming off of injuries, the inability to build a functional pitching staff, the indifference to defense and fundamentals - but I don't ultimately blame him for the franchise's drift in recent years. That's Henry's decision.

I think that this is the correct take. I think that the Sox' philosophy is from the top down. Henry is the guy who sets up the plan, Bloom is the guy who does what his boss wants. I think that if Bloom goes, that means that Henry wants to change his philosophy. Since Henry doesn't talk to anyone anymore, it's impossible to know what he's thinking. But I don't think he hasn't stopped enjoying making money and Bloom does that for him and takes the slings and arrows. He's a pocket Roger Goodell.

 

[Salem's Lot]

Honest question: so is ownership OK with seeing the major league team repeatedly end up in last place in the meantime?

It's getting late early, as they say.

It’s just me speculating, but I would assume they are. They hired Bloom to rebuild the player development system, and that usually involves not being very good for a few years. But who knows, they’ve seemed to switch course a number of times since FSG bought the team.

 

[The Filthy One]

I could see Cora being fired for the problems on defense, maybe, but I suspect he gets another year. I think they will give Bloom at least another year, if not two. I doubt they see firing Bloom as a quick path to winning again. The two past GMs they fired seemed to have been let go because of costly contract mistakes at the major league level (Sandoval/Ramirez for Cherrington and Sale/Price and sort of Eovaldi's extension for Dombrowski). I don't really see any of those on Bloom's resume at the moment. I said in another thread that inaction is more frustrating for fans and more likely to get radio callers in a huff, but action that results in ghastly sunk costs is what bothers ownership.

 

[Green Monster]

I could see Cora being fired for the problems on defense, maybe, but I suspect he gets another year. I think they will give Bloom at least another year, if not two. I doubt they see firing Bloom as a quick path to winning again. The two past GMs they fired seemed to have been let go because of costly contract mistakes at the major league level (Sandoval/Ramirez for Cherrington and Sale/Price and sort of Eovaldi's extension for Dombrowski). I don't really see any of those on Bloom's resume at the moment. I said in another thread that inaction is more frustrating for fans and more likely to get radio callers in a huff, but action that results in ghastly sunk costs is what bothers ownership.

Do you see Bloom's failure to get under the 2022 CBT threshold as a costly mistake?

 

[Fishy1]

Henry wanted a rebuild and he's getting one. I doubt he fires Bloom for that. It's disappointing to see a team struggle through that, but when you blow as much cash as they did on Sale and trade Mookie, you're going to struggle for a bit. The farm wasn't producing much either, of either position players or pitchers. With Casas, Wong, Ceddane and Abreu all showing out to different degrees, the future looks a little brighter.

Interested to see where people are at after this off-season, when I think the Sox will sign at least one major pitcher, and into the following years, when the next crop of prospects graduates - Teel, Mayer, Roman Anthony, Wikelman, Yordanny, and others. There's going to be a youth movement. I mean, there already kind of is one. Casas and Abreu represent a move back towards a disciplined offense, and Ceddane should shore up the outfield substantially.

Obviously some are bound to flame out but I can't remember so many prospects moving so quickly through the system.

 

[bosockboy]

Bloom will be allowed to operate without that Sale contract in 2025. That’s when his final exams are.

I can see Cora and the Sox mutually parting ways.

 

[AB in DC]

Can we get an option for:

Bloom stays / Cora resigns (as in "voluntarily leaves"); this is what I think happens.

Agree with this. I think the Sox will notify Cora they won't be extending his contract (expires 2024) and managers typically don't like having a lame duck year. Whether you call it "voluntary" or "resign" or "mutual agreement", there will be some kind of settlement one way or another.

 

[The Filthy One]

Do you see Bloom's failure to get under the 2022 CBT threshold as a costly mistake?

It's definitely a mistake, but I'm not sure it's as costly as paying Pablo Sandoval to play for someone else or paying Chris Sale ~$90M for 1.8 WAR.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I could see Cora being fired for the problems on defense, maybe, but I suspect he gets another year. I think they will give Bloom at least another year, if not two. I doubt they see firing Bloom as a quick path to winning again. The two past GMs they fired seemed to have been let go because of costly contract mistakes at the major league level (Sandoval/Ramirez for Cherrington and Sale/Price and sort of Eovaldi's extension for Dombrowski). I don't really see any of those on Bloom's resume at the moment. I said in another thread that inaction is more frustrating for fans and more likely to get radio callers in a huff, but action that results in ghastly sunk costs is what bothers ownership.

Worth pointing out that Cherington was not fired. They hired Dombrowski above him in the chain of command, and then Cherington opted out. One way to look at it is that they wanted Cherington out but didn't have the guts to fire him. Another way to look at it is they were satisfied with a lot of his job performance but wanted a more experienced hand to shore up his weaknesses, and felt a team effort would be the best way forward. Either way, I think there are flaws in the idea that ownership has some sort of pattern to how long they give their heads of baseball ops.

 

[teddywingman]

We keep talking about how the "rebuild is going well" and how depleted the farm system was. But where did all these good young players come from? What Bloom draft picks or young acquisitions are highest in the system?

Honest questions, as I do not follow what's going on in the minors.

 

[Fishy1]

We keep talking about how the "rebuild is going well" and how depleted the farm system was. But where did all these good young players come from? What Bloom draft picks or young acquisitions are highest in the system?

Honest questions, as I do not follow what's going on in the minors.

It is a little early for Blooms picks to be graduating.

DD left in 2019. Teel, Mayer, Nick Yorke, and Roman Anthony are Bloom's, and they're all in AA with projected arrivals of next year or the year after.

Wilyer and Enmanuel were acquired by Bloom for Vasquez (a great steal). Wong was acquired by Bloom.

Pretty sure Casas, Wikelman and Ceddane were all late in DD's regime.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

We keep talking about how the "rebuild is going well" and how depleted the farm system was. But where did all these good young players come from? What Bloom draft picks or young acquisitions are highest in the system?

Honest questions, as I do not follow what's going on in the minors.

Casas, Bello, Duran, Crawford, Houck, Rafeala were here when Bloom got here. He brought in Whitlock, Winckowski, Wong, Abreu, Valdez.

Of the Sox current top 10 prospects; he brought in Mayer, Bleis, Anthony, Teel, Yorke, Zanetelli, and Cespedes; the others (Perales, Gonzalez, and Rafaela) predate his arrival.

So it’s a mix, naturally the prospect list is getting more Bloom heavy as time goes on. No one he acquired as an amateur has made it to the big leagues yet, I don’t believe.

 

[grimshaw]

edit: covered

 

[8slim]

I suspect both will be here in 2024. I hope both are here in 2025, because that’d mean 2024 was a very good season.