These referees are horrible. Webber is right - the teams came to play each other and the fans came to watch basketball. Not refs handing out techs like they are holiday gifts.
I don’t think any player or coach should ever get T’d up for emotion that isn’t directed at the official. It’s stupid.
So glad to hear someone else say it. I've been saying it for years, but there is no player in the NBA whose game I loathe more than James Harden. Nobody.
Seriously? You don’t like watching stepback three, stepback three, stepback three, drive to the lane hoping for a star treatment foul call, stepback three?
I just noticed Kuzma's been picking up a lot more assists lately. Is that a real improvement?
Harden has taken about as many free throws tonight as the Celtics average, but he’s done it on less overall contact than Jaylen Brown takes on a single drive.
Kuzma is a good offensive player and clearly has support from LeBron. He has definitely shown improvement in just about every offensive category except 3p%. I don't get the Kuzma negativity by some around these parts.
Not "about as many." As many. He's 18/19 from the charity stripe. The C's average 19.3 attempts per game.
Water is wet. The guy is a singular talent. I get why some don't enjoy watching him play but he is essentially a more efficient Paul Pierce - The Truth got lots of criticism for playing the foul game in his day too. If you have a problem with either, its a league issue rather than the player.
It's actually his 3rd. Ties Russell Westbrook for the most ever. Only 2 other players have done it, Kareem and Wilt once each.
I think the deal with the devil the Clippers made is starting to run out. Including tonight, in their last five games, they'll be 1-4. They're getting curbstomped tonight, they got shitbeaten by a Kawhi-less Raptors team and they got beaten easily by the Heat and Grizzlies. Their only win was a 4 point squeaker against the Suns. They're about to be a fading memory on the top of the Western Conference standings.
I think this is right. They can compete on any given night with their depth but their lack of a top tier player limits them big time.
This is the basketball version of a political both-sides false equivalence.
Pierce averaged 6.4 fta per game in his career. His 3 highest seasons were 10.3, 9.5 and 9.0. He only led the league in free throw attempts once, and he had only 4 seasons where he finished in the top 5 in free throw attempts over 19 seasons. He had 7 seasons in the top 10.
Harden's career average is up to 8.3fta per game now, but over the last 8 seasons, he's been in the top 10 in every single one. 5 of the last 6 seasons, he's averaged over 10fta per game. Since 2012/13, he's finished 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, and 1st in free throw attempts each season. He's already finished in the top 10 more times in 10 seasons, than Pierce did in 19 seasons, 8-7.
Pierce played the game the way most superstars play the game. James Harden has made getting to the free throw line, his game.
As I said, he is more efficient than Pierce. I don't begrudge you not liking his game - I admit I don't love it either - but he maximizes his opportunities which is what top players are supposed to do.
No its not. Pierce sought contact to get to the line. Cs fans mostly loved him for it. Harden does it and it irritates people - as I said I don't love his game either. However if you hate Harden for trying to get to the line and are ok with Pierce I think its kind of hypocritical.
No one can stay in front of Harden, and he exploits this. See the amount of times Capela gets easy alley-oops from Harden, and it's because Harden went past his defender like he wasn't there. He maximizes his strengths because if defenders zag off, he's lethal from 3. And he's strong enough that he can finish against the best defenders. So basically you give him a 3, or he'll go past you like he's nothing. And if he gets past you, it's either an easy lob to Capela or he finishes or gets fouled while finishing. I think it's beautifully simple and brutally effective.
If you can't see the difference between Pierce (and basically every star player) and Harden then I don't know what to tell you.
Prime Corey Maggette got to the FT line at will like Harden. His game was incredibly ugly to watch.
I think at times, Jimmy Butler is hard to watch too.
I think at times, Jimmy Butler is hard to watch too.
We can agree to disagree - I love Pierce but he definitely tried to draw contact especially later in his career.
Also, a respectful request to stop with the "both sides" garbage in this forum. This is sports and we can have different opinions without someone needing to claim some sort of moral high ground.
Drawing contact by using a pump fake to get a guy in the air around the hoop is one thing. Driving to the hoop, and throwing your arms at your defenders arms while simultaneously launching the ball in the vicinity of the hoop as soon as you create contact is a completely different brand of basketball. Harden creates the contact, intently and purposely. Contact was a byproduct of Pierce's game (just like McHale and Bird, whose defenders would make contact with them because they were fooled by their moves). Jordan got to the line like crazy too, but he never did it the way Harden does it. He went up strong, and guys had to foul him because if they didn't, he was dunking it all over them. Harden doesn't even try to go up strong. He doesn't even go up half the time. God, it's so fucking brutal.
Harden puts up a 50-point triple-double and the entire thread is bashing this player. You don't get much more insane than this.
Couldn't have said it much better. He's essentially being criticized for being effective and exploiting helpless defenders.
Again I am not arguing that you should enjoy Hardens game. However many veteran NBA stars did and still do exactly what you are describing Harden does, including Pierce. I will grant you that Harden has taken it to another level but its because he can do it better than anyone else. I cannot fault him for that - it works. He is a damn good player too.
On another note...….
In many places throughout the world tonight there are people at home who are now intrigued with this hot new NBA that everyone is raving about...…..and they tuned in to this Dallas/Phoenix game to see what all the hype was about. Yikes!!
Not the best showcase for the NBA tonight.
In many places throughout the world tonight there are people at home who are now intrigued with this hot new NBA that everyone is raving about...…..and they tuned in to this Dallas/Phoenix game to see what all the hype was about. Yikes!!
Not the best showcase for the NBA tonight.
Yeah but if you like the NBA you get two of the top three draft picks from this year in this game.
I guess SoSH loves the touch foul. Who knew.
50 is 50 but nothing about it is particularly fun or interesting to watch. The entire world loathes Neymar for a reason. Would never argue that it’s not effective, just that it sucks.
50 is 50 but nothing about it is particularly fun or interesting to watch. The entire world loathes Neymar for a reason. Would never argue that it’s not effective, just that it sucks.
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All you have to do is recognize what occurred the last time these two teams played each other. Nobody was going to be getting away with anything tonight as the officials were likely mandated to keep an especially tight hold of this game.
It's smart, effective, within the rules, and helps his team win games. I get it. And the guy is otherworldly talented on top of it.
But this "Pierce and others do it too" stuff simply isn't accurate. Pierce and others are trying to make a basket and get to the line. Harden is trying to get to the line while being forced to pretend to attempt a shot in order to get there. It's genius, because it works. Some people just don't enjoy it.
This is simply untrue. When Pierce utilized his patented up-fake it was for the purpose of drawing contact and a foul to get to the line. He'd leverage his body to get a shot up to have a chance at a 3-point play however his priority was always to draw the foul. This was his go-to move for many years.....so much that NBA 2K11 featured this move on many of his plays.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=paul+pierce+draw+foul
Well 2K11 answers it.
Don't we have the and-1 numbers? My Google skills aren't producing it. Knowing the percentage of times that Harden, Pierce, and similar players are shooting one shot vs. two would be pretty goddamn helpful here.
No idea who this reddit poster is and he doesn't post a link to show his source but for what it's worth...….
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/76ds9e/despite_james_harden_drawing_122_three_point/?st=jpnmgqkc&sh=18c21b87
My two takeaways from his post is that a) Teams WERE more aware of Harden's techniques last season and defended him softer which can account for his increased shooting pct in the paint. The other is that the rip-through move now being a side-out rather than 3 free throws has has had an affect.
Normally I’d complain about Harden getting to the line so often, too, but when it gets the Lakers this mad, I’ll just sit back and enjoy it:
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25530583/lebron-james-los-angeles-lakers-frustrated-calls-houston-rockets
I take back everything bad I was going to write about Harden: this makes all the foul calls worth it.
Slow Friday, so I'll preach to the choir for a bit...
Brogdon's crazy efficiency has him at 62.6% TS, which is tied with Durant for 20th overall, and third among guards behind Lin (in substantially less minutes) and one Wardell Stephen Curry II, who just ceded the #1 spot to Capela after his 3-12 night against the Raptors, which brought him down to 67.9%
Sixty seven point nine. That is insane. And his career average (62.3%) is basically where Brogdon's at right now.
For some more context, Stockton's season best TS% was 65.6% (60.8 career). Nash's was 65.4% (60.5 career). Mark Price's 62.3/58.6. All of them had Usage% hovering around 20, while Curry's has been about 30 for the past 5 years.
Expanding it beyond PGs out to great shooters, generally- best/career:
Bird- 61.2/56.4
Reggie Miller- 65.0/61.4
Klay- 59.8/57.3
Durant- 65.1/61.2
Ray Allen- 62.4/58.0
Peja- 62.4/57.7
Mullin- 64.5/59.4
Curry over the past 5 season = 65.2%
Not only is his baseline efficiency better than the best seasons by the best shooters, but he's doing it on more volume than just about any of them. Bird and Durant are the only ones close to his Usage%.
Plus, I'm pretty confident that his average depth of attempt is longer than anyone else's. The league has never seen anything like the gravity he creates, and it's one of the big reasons his On/Off numbers are so crazy- there's just no replacing the stress that he puts on defenses and the space it creates. It'd be like having Gronk and Randy Moss on the field together.
You might feel like I'm splitting hairs, but I saw Pierce's foul-drawing as exploiting his opponents, getting them to jump on upfakes and actually hit him. Harden's game is predicated on taking jumpers where he sticks his feet out, or does a sideways jump, in order for him to create the contact himself, and then exploit the refs' propensity to call that even though the league has been trying to make that an offensive foul. I just see it as far more cynical and far less gamesmanship-y. Plus Harden has his usage rate through the roof so he can win the MVP with those ugly tactics, which just underscores the resentment. Paul Pierce never won anything when he was the best player on his team, unless you count losing to Jason Kidd in the 2002 ECF.
Pierce was also better on D, which is always endearing to neutral fans (or should be).
Which is great, and not much different than the game we saw from John Wall the other night. If that's all he did I'd be fine with it. Where it gets maddeningly frustrating, to the point where I'm rooting against him even against league hegemons like the Warriors, is that that's not all he does. If he wasn't looking to draw cheap contact on every 3 he took or every drive he made to the basket (and if the refs stopped giving him the cheapest or most cynical foul calls you can imagine), I'd appreciate his greatness and not be infuriated by it. But it's disingenuous to come out here and basically say "you hate him cause he's great". We don't. A core part of his game is ugly as sin, and even if it's effective we don't have to like it for what it does to the game aesthetically.
If some baseball pitcher figured out a way to lower his ERA by beaning 2-3 batters a game, maybe fans of his team would defend it, saying it's effective and look at the results! and wow, if they could keep up with his fastball, maybe they'd see the high hard ones coming, but if they can't, that's their fault! But the rest of us baseball fans would have a hue and cry. And then that pitcher goes and wins the Cy Young, and we're supposed to celebrate him? Give me a fucking break.
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Once again, I get it if you dislike Harden's style of play. Its frustrating to watch. There is no doubt he has perfected drawing fouls to get to the line as part of his game.
We can agree to disagree whether Pierce did this too - I find it funny that people are so up in arms about this as it was clear to me (and others online as posted upthread by HRB) but eyes of the beholder and all that. I do think you are splitting hairs though IF - YRMV.
That said, to be clear, I dont think anyone was comparing Harden and Pierce overall. Pierce was a far superior defender by any measure whereas Harden is, also by just about any measure, a far more efficient offensive player. Again, you can dislike how he plays basketball but anyone who dismisses Harden's success as mostly a result of exploiting refereeing is not looking at the data. The guy is an elite offensive player and is incredibly durable which is remarkable given his undeniable tendency to draw contact.
In short - Harden flops and gets lots of foul calls. However he is a damn good offensive player too. He doesn't just pump up his numbers by drawing ticky-tack fouls.
We can agree to disagree whether Pierce did this too - I find it funny that people are so up in arms about this as it was clear to me (and others online as posted upthread by HRB) but eyes of the beholder and all that. I do think you are splitting hairs though IF - YRMV.
That said, to be clear, I dont think anyone was comparing Harden and Pierce overall. Pierce was a far superior defender by any measure whereas Harden is, also by just about any measure, a far more efficient offensive player. Again, you can dislike how he plays basketball but anyone who dismisses Harden's success as mostly a result of exploiting refereeing is not looking at the data. The guy is an elite offensive player and is incredibly durable which is remarkable given his undeniable tendency to draw contact.
In short - Harden flops and gets lots of foul calls. However he is a damn good offensive player too. He doesn't just pump up his numbers by drawing ticky-tack fouls.
Many fans across sports dislike cynical play, and it's largely a matter of aesthetics/taste: we know it when we see it. You can break it down analytically all you want, but at the end of the day, people don't like shitty things, and want to be able to call them shitty.