2015-2016 NBA Game Thread

[HomeRunBaker]

It's silly to me that teams want to be like the Warriors and I've heard that said about the Celtics as well. NOBODY has Steph Curry which allows the Warriors to be the Warriors. We are watching the greatest shooter and greatest shot maker the game has ever seen......Marcus Smart isn't Steph Curry, nobody is.

 

[Tony C]

I just love Kobe, what a piece of s...

 

Despite his advanced age and several recent season-ending injuries, the 37-year-old Bryant, now in his 20th season with the Lakers, still enjoys taking over games, or at least trying to, especially when his team is down big, as they have been many times in recent years.
Now, though, Bryant said he's a changed man.
"Can't do it," he said after Friday's 132-114 loss to the Sacramento Kings at Sleep Train Arena. "Got to let them develop."
The "them" Bryant is referring to is the Lakers' young players: rookie guard D'Angelo Russell, second-year guard Jordan Clarkson and second-year forward Julius Randle.
But Bryant admits it's not easy to pull back.
"It's difficult," Bryant said. "But it has to be done."
 

 
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14015006/kobe-bryant-losangeles-lakers-says-done-trying-take-games
 
 
As in the guy who started the season 13 for 36 and 4 for 21 from 3 point range is saying...."dang, I could be helping this club overcome those deficits, but those losses are on the kids, I gotta step back." lol....that's just rich.
 
 

 

[bowiac]

It's silly to me that teams want to be like the Warriors and I've heard that said about the Celtics as well. NOBODY has Steph Curry which allows the Warriors to be the Warriors. We are watching the greatest shooter and greatest shot maker the game has ever seen......Marcus Smart isn't Steph Curry, nobody is.

This is apt. For whatever reason, even though he won the MVP, there's a sense that Curry isn't really on the same level with Durant/LeBron/Davis, so there's gotta be some system to emulate there. And there is sorta, but talent is ultimately what determines if you end up as the 76ers, the Rockets, or the Warriors in that system.

 

[ifmanis5]

So, Curry, eh? Looks like he's serious about being taken seriously.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

So, Curry, eh? Looks like he's serious about being taken seriously.

 
In 36 minutes played: 53 pts (17-27 fg, 8-14 3pt, 11-11 ft), 9 ast, 4 reb, 4 stl, 2 to. Fairly serious.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

This is apt. For whatever reason, even though he won the MVP, there's a sense that Curry isn't really on the same level with Durant/LeBron/Davis, so there's gotta be some system to emulate there. And there is sorta, but talent is ultimately what determines if you end up as the 76ers, the Rockets, or the Warriors in that system.

Curry is arguably the best player in the game now, especially after this start. Its as if he knows most people think of LeBron, Durant, Harden and Westbrook and perhaps others as superior to him and is hell bent on showing them otherwise. I, for one, would be psyched to see the Steph Curry FU tour.

 

[Kliq]

New Orleans depth is so bad, especially when playing a team like Golden State. I mean Luke Babbitt played thirty minutes in that game.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

New Orleans depth is so bad, especially when playing a team like Golden State. I mean Luke Babbitt played thirty minutes in that game.

 
Yeah, but they're pretty banged up: Evans, Pondexter, Norris Cole all out, and Asik, Jrue Holiday and Babbitt just returning from various injuries. At full strength I think they can still be pretty beastly. I know they're very psyched not to have face Curry and the Ws again till March (their announcers kept saying as much).

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Curry is playing on another level right now but the Pelicans don't have anyone on their entire roster to even contain him.  In the opener it was 5-9 Ish Smith and 5-6 Nate Robinson with Holiday not being much better. You can't even swing your 2 onto him as Eric Gordon isn't anyone who can disrupt him either. 
 
If the Warriors really wanted to get Curry to break Wilt's record in a game this year the Pelicans, who look to push pace themselves, would be the ideal candidate to do it against. They won't......but you can't convince me that they couldn't. He put up 53 in 36 minutes without that being the objective.

 

[Kliq]

Nobody can beat Wilts record in a game without it going into triple ot or something. Kobe's 81 was still 19 points short, featured a record number of threes and Curry isn't nearly selfish enough to try.

I like Curry is one of the five or six best players in the league, and I'm pretty anyone whose opinion is based on facts and reality believes so too. That being said, LeBron is the best player in the league, hands down end of story.

 

[bowiac]

I like Curry is one of the five or six best players in the league, and I'm pretty anyone whose opinion is based on facts and reality believes so too. That being said, LeBron is the best player in the league, hands down end of story.

This is a pretty timid statement. I think it's an open question whether he's the best player in the game. I don't think it's clear LeBron is better.

 

[Kliq]

LeBron is the biggest physical force in the NBA. Last season, he averaged 25-6-7 and that was considered a down year for him, one that he openly coasted through large portions of. He also shot 56-35-71 from the field. LeBron shot 56 percent from the field as a swingman, often at times when he was the only player on the court who was capable of creating their own shot. For most of his season last year, he was the top playmaker, shooter, scorer and defender on his team, while also doubling as, according to the annual GM survey, the best leader in the NBA. His playoff numbers were stupid last season, 30-11-8.5 while playing 42 minutes per game, guarding any player on the court and single handily willing his team to win two games in the finals against a team that had one of the greatest single seasons in league history. I think Curry is great and deserved his MVP award last season, but he can't do that.
 
Let's put it another way, what team in the East, could LeBron not carry to the NBA Finals? Philly, maybe the Nets? That also speaks to how weak the East is, but no player has a greater effect on his team than LeBron.

 

[ifmanis5]

0-3 Rockets. So much for Simmons' prediction.

 

[luckiestman]

0-3 Rockets. So much for Simmons' prediction.

Im most interested in the Bucks. I still cannot believe they traded away Knight. I like that guy. The Bucks suck since they traded him.

 

[AMS25]

0-3 Rockets. So much for Simmons' prediction.

 
Yeah, and by 20 or more each time. Looking forward to their matchup tomorrow against the Thunder.

 

[Blacken]

Dirk is a flame emoji tonight. Six for seven tonight (yeah, against the Lakers, but still) and he made Mo Williams look sillier than being Mo Williams normally does with a dunk.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

His playoff numbers were stupid last season, 30-11-8.5 while playing 42 minutes per game

 
And putting up a rather lame .487 true shooting %. Curry had nearly identical scoring volume in the playoffs (25.9 pts per 36 to James 25.6) and put up .607 ts.
 
LeBron at his peak was arguably the greatest ever, but seems to have crested slightly but measurably from that level. Most advanced stats (RPM, WAR, RAPM e.g.) suggest LeBron and Curry were similarly impactful last season, even factoring in James' superior defensive impact.  And this season, Curry seems to have taken his game up another half-level while LeBron has gotten another year older.
 
I don't think it's hard to imagine that right now LeBron and Curry are comparable in terms of overall impact on wins. I want to see them both play a it more over the next couple months to say for sure, though. LeBron's still young enough where he could get closer to peak level, and at some point I assume Curry will not be averaging 42.9 pts per 36 minutes (on .760 true shooting!) with 8.0 assists, 6.2 rebounds, and 2.5 steals.

 

[bowiac]

Yeah, and by 20 or more each time. Looking forward to their matchup tomorrow against the Thunder.

They were tough to watch in the 2nd half. I still have to think this is just variance resulting from their play style, but I guess you could write a narrative that this is the start of defenses starting to adjust to an efficient, but less than dynamic offense. I didn't see the game, so didn't see if anything special was going on.

 

[swingin val]

Man, Kobe looks old

 

[luckiestman]

Man, Kobe looks old

Well, he has been playing in the league almost as long as James Young has been alive.

 

[bowiac]

Well, he has been playing in the league almost as long as James Young has been alive.

Troubling. Garnett was drafted three weeks before Young was born. 

 

[Kliq]

 
And putting up a rather lame .487 true shooting %. Curry had nearly identical scoring volume in the playoffs (25.9 pts per 36 to James 25.6) and put up .607 ts.
 
LeBron at his peak was arguably the greatest ever, but seems to have crested slightly but measurably from that level. Most advanced stats (RPM, WAR, RAPM e.g.) suggest LeBron and Curry were similarly impactful last season, even factoring in James' superior defensive impact.  And this season, Curry seems to have taken his game up another half-level while LeBron has gotten another year older.
 
I don't think it's hard to imagine that right now LeBron and Curry are comparable in terms of overall impact on wins. I want to see them both play a it more over the next couple months to say for sure, though. LeBron's still young enough where he could get closer to peak level, and at some point I assume Curry will not be averaging 42.9 pts per 36 minutes (on .760 true shooting!) with 8.0 assists, 6.2 rebounds, and 2.5 steals.

 
We are going to come to a fundamental difference, and that is whether to accept that a players full impact can be properly summarized by encompassing metrics such as RPM, or whatever John Hollinger is putting out there. I think those numbers have some value some where but it is impossible to define how much they really matter at this stage of their development. Curry is going to have a better true shooting percentage than LeBron because he is clearly the better shooter, but outside of shooting I would argue that LeBron is equal to Curry in some facets (playmaking, difficult shot making) and far superior in other (defense, rebounding, attacking the basket) areas. And anything that has happened this season is virtually irrelevant to the conversation because the season is five days old.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

They were tough to watch in the 2nd half. I still have to think this is just variance resulting from their play style, but I guess you could write a narrative that this is the start of defenses starting to adjust to an efficient, but less than dynamic offense. I didn't see the game, so didn't see if anything special was going on.

For one, Howard has missed two of the first three games but most importantly is James Harden reverting back to his old ways of caring only about the offensive side of the ball. He is the guy teammates look up to and his body language has been awful as if the basketball court is the last place he'd like to be. Something is off with that team behind the scenes.

 

[nighthob]

The Kardashian curse. Harden was dating Princess Fiona until Lamar enacted his version of Leaving Las Vegas.

 

[bowiac]

Unrelatedly, I noticed some oddities with pace/efficiency so far this season. While points per game is actually slightly up from last year (this is actually weird too), points per possession is down rather significantly. Pace is more than compensating however. Last year teams had 93.9 possessions per game, and scored 1.056 points per possession (99.2 PPG). This year, teams are up to 98.6 possessions per game, but scoring only 1.021 points per possession (100.6 PPG). These are both fairly dramatic shifts, although of course, it's very early.
 
In general, scoring is usually down early in the season, so it's especially weird for scoring to be up like this. Here's the last 13 years of scoring by date of the NBA season (scaled to 2015 PPG).
 

 
It'll be interesting to watch how we progress from here with pace/efficiency. The current combination suggests teams may be chasing pace without sufficient regard for making sure you get good looks (the Lakers are especially guilty of this). The whole idea of pace is that you get better shots early in the shot clock, so that you increase points per possession. It's not supposed to be a tradeoff with efficiency (as that would be self-defeating). In other words, this may be what it looks like when teams try and copycat the Warriors without the personnel/coaching to pull it off.
 
Or you know, it's just random variance from only looking at 3% of the season.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

 
We are going to come to a fundamental difference

 
I doubt it's that fundamental a difference. I'm not going to die on the hill of RPM (I think conceptually it's the only metric we should care about, but there always going to be issues with sample size and collinearity). And I'm not going to die on the hill of 2015 Curry = 2015 James, since as I noted at his peak James was possibly the most impactful basketball player of all-time, and at 31 it's arguable how far removed he is from his peak. (I would probably die on the hill that Curry right now is significantly better than Kobe Bryant has ever been, but that's another topic).
 
I just think if you're going to throw out traditional numbers to support a case for someone's greatness (ppg rpg, apg, e.g.), it's important not to leave out pretty basic context like scoring efficiency. The difference between .607 and .487 true shooting at identical volume is huge — all other things being equal, the difference between helping your team win and helping your team lose.
 
Generally, if we're going talking about someone's impact on wins (which is I think what we should be talking about when rating and comparing players), I think it's worth at least a cursory look at basic adjusted plus-minus results (in as large a sample as possible) — not as a be-all, end-all to the discussion but as a potentially useful starting point.
 
Also: as far as I know, Hollinger is not responsible for any of the respected adjusted plus-minus measures. He's the guy who made up "PER," which is generally considered a bit of a joke among serious hoops analysts.

 

[Kliq]

 
I doubt it's that fundamental a difference. I'm not going to die on the hill of RPM (I think conceptually it's the only metric we should care about, but there always going to be issues with sample size and collinearity). And I'm not going to die on the hill of 2015 Curry = 2015 James, since as I noted at his peak James was possibly the most impactful basketball player of all-time, and at 31 it's arguable how far removed he is from his peak. (I would probably die on the hill that Curry right now is significantly better than Kobe Bryant has ever been, but that's another topic).
 
I just think if you're going to throw out traditional numbers to support a case for someone's greatness (ppg rpg, apg, e.g.), it's important not to leave out pretty basic context like scoring efficiency. The difference between .607 and .487 true shooting at identical volume is huge — all other things being equal, the difference between helping your team win and helping your team lose.
 
Generally, if we're going talking about someone's impact on wins (which is I think what we should be talking about when rating and comparing players), I think it's worth at least a cursory look at basic adjusted plus-minus results (in as large a sample as possible) — not as a be-all, end-all to the discussion but as a potentially useful starting point.
 
Also: as far as I know, Hollinger is not responsible for any of the respected adjusted plus-minus measures. He's the guy who made up "PER," which is generally considered a bit of a joke among serious hoops analysts.

 
But all things are not equal, LeBron is better at other facets of the game, so you can't just point to shooting statistics and determine that Curry is his equal. We have already established that Curry is a significantly better shooter than LeBron, and since the largest indicator towards efficiency is going to be shooting percentage, than Curry is going to hold an edge there. But just because he may be the most efficient player doesn't make him the best, which is the topic at hand. 

 

[bowiac]

But all things are not equal, LeBron is better at other facets of the game, so you can't just point to shooting statistics and determine that Curry is his equal. We have already established that Curry is a significantly better shooter than LeBron, and since the largest indicator towards efficiency is going to be shooting percentage, than Curry is going to hold an edge there. But just because he may be the most efficient player doesn't make him the best, which is the topic at hand. 

I'm with Sam Ray Not, in that I don't think this is a hill to die on, but I don't think his case is purely based on efficiency. Rather, as he said, stats like RPM suggest that Curry might have as large an impact on the game as LeBron did. This captures many things beyond shooting percentage or efficiency. The citation to the greater efficiency is simply the single most visible difference in Curry's favor.
 
I really don't think this is a useful debate however.

 

[Kliq]

Okay, to get back on track, I think we could argue about this all day long and each have valid points.
 
My original post concerning the issue was with I believe it was DJBMH that brought up the point of Curry being disrespected by people who thought he was a lesser player than the leagues elite, and I don't really know if that is true. I'm less bullish on Curry than most of the other people on this board, but I will happily concede that Curry is on the same relative level of the games elite. Personally, I think LeBron is the top dog and then behind him is Curry, Harden, Brow, Durant, Westbrook and CP3 in some order. I just don't think there are a lot of knowledgeable basketball fans out there that would dispute that and say Curry is lesser than those guys.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

But all things are not equal

 
Obviously not. I was just adding a key piece of context that you left out. I don't disagree that "players full impact [can't] be properly summarized by encompassing metrics" -- but absent the basic context of efficiency, the traditional numbers you threw out to support a case for LeBron (ppg, mpg, apg) do an even worse job of summarizing that impact.
 

We have already established that Curry is a significantly better shooter than LeBron

 
Yeah, but I wasn't talking about "shooting" per se — I was about scoring efficiently, at high volume, which is a huge component of winning basketball, and has always been a huge part of what makes LeBron so great (much greater than guys like Melo and Kobe, e.g.). Obviously no one in NBA history has ever shot from range like Curry, but guys like LeBron (or Durant, or Harden, etc.) can usually approximate or surpass his level of scoring efficiency by taking it the hole for easy buckets and easy FTAs. At his peak 2-3 seasons ago, LeBron averaged  .640-.650 ts, which is off-the-charts fantastic for a guy with his high usage. I was just noting that calling his playoff numbers "stupid" while totally ignoring a .487 ts that was 160 points off his peak level is a little misleading.
 
Again, I'm not dying on the hill of Curry = LeBron. For one thing, there's a serious apples-to-oranges thing when comparing a small guy and 6'-8" wing / power forward, largely because a small 6'-3" PG physically cannot impact the game on the defensive end the way a 7+-foot wingspanned physical freak can (when motivated). We can look at plus-minus to try to make it more apples-to-apples, and use various adjustments and regressions to try to isolate Curry's impact separate from that of his teammates. But we can't ignore how well Curry's team has been built around his unique skillset (with, among other things, four or five versatile 7-foot-wingspanned freaks in the LeBron mold). I pretty much buy your earlier suggestion that LeBron (even in his current, slightly post-prime state) would have his same dominant impact on a wider range of teams than Steph would.
 
I'd go as far as to say we don't have any compelling evidence that right now LeBron on his team is better than Curry on his team, but I wouldn't feel that comfortable asserting that "Curry ≥ LeBron" in a vacuum.

 

[The Social Chair]

The refs in this wolves game are terrible.

 

[luckiestman]

This Memphis/Warriors game is being played at a very high level. Best I've seen so far this year

 

[The Social Chair]

3 horrible straight calls against the Wolves.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

What the Warriors are doing to Memphis right now isn't even fair.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Warriors currently on a 65-20 run over the last 19 minutes of this game......up 88-44 in the 3rd.
 
Curry only with 30 thus far.

 

[Luis Taint]

Of all the crazy trade talk I've ever heard, the Curry for Rondo was the best.

 

[luckiestman]

What the Warriors are doing to Memphis right now isn't even fair.

That got out of hand in a hurry. Grizzlies were looking good for a while

 

[Tony C]

Curry as best player vs LeBron is debatable. I don't think Curry could carry a team the way LeBron did last season w/out Love and Irving (and Anderson V). That said, it's damn close and can anyone deny Curry gets style points galore over LeBron? Just such a pleasure to watch.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

10-16 shooting for Curry tonight and 4-8 from deep.  With only 30 points, he woefully underperformed and dragged down his season average from 39.3 ppg to 37.  He is slipping.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

10-16 shooting for Curry tonight and 4-8 from deep.  With only 30 points, he woefully underperformed and dragged down his season average from 39.3 ppg to 37.  He is slipping.

Haha. Of course, part of that is he's only playing 31.8 minutes per game (mostly sitting 4th quarters after incinerating other teams).

Per 36 minutes: 42.0 points on .768 true shooting.

 

[bowiac]

Not every sport needs to be perfectly balanced. Sometimes bizarre talents come along that break the game for a bit, until they regress or the sport catches up.

 

[Fishy1]

Hope everybody saw this Porzingis slam.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dBD6ZB20ts
 
I didn't watch a whole lot of his preseason highlights until now, but the dude is surprisingly mobile on top of being fucking huge. Stuffed Parker (which isn't that hard anymore) and Leonard last night.. Shooting pretty poorly so far, but if he starts to drain treys, the Easter Conference better watch out (the Western Conference need not worry).

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Speaking of absolutely huge, imagine this exact Warriors team but with Rudy Gobert (the anchor of the current #1 defense in the NBA) added to it. That could be an actual thing if the Warriors had just grabbed Gobert at #26 in 2013 instead of getting cute and trading down to #30 for Nemanja Nedovic. Be very afraid. (I mean, be very afraid as it is, but that's just a ridiculous team to ponder).
 
On topic of the draft: I don't know if I've ever seen a draft in which so many players have looked this intriguing this early on. Only guy who's really underwhelmed me so far (relative to draft position) is D'Angelo Russell. LOLakers...

 

[Kliq]

Imagine if David Kahn hadn't drafted two point guards with two top six picks in the 2009 draft not named Steph Curry?

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Haha, great point. I like to imagine that the new ownership and Bob Myers have constructed these Warriors perfectly, but none of it happens if the great David Kahn doesn't let the franchise fall into the previous regime's laps (also: Memphis drafted Thabeet at #2, and Sacramento took Tyreke at #4).
 
I do give props to Don Nelson and Larry Riley for not drafting Jordan Hill (the by-the-book "need" pick on a team led by Monta Ellis), and refusing to dangle Curry in a draft-day package for Amare Stoudemire. Apparently the Warriors wanted Amare, and Steve Kerr's Suns coveted Curry, and were convinced they had a deal for the #7 pick in place. But after the Warriors made the pick, they backed out. I'm never 100% clear why (Kerr and Riley remain coy about it), but I always think it was Nellie more than anyone who saw greatness in Steph and killed the deal as soon he fell to #7.
 
Obviously, with Curry in place, almost all Bob Myers' moves to build around him have been golden: picking Klay at #11 to give him a properly-sized backcourt mate; shipping Monta for Bogut; quasi-tanking a season to get Barnes at #7; grabbing Ezeli at #30 and Draymond at #35 in the same draft as Barnes; orchestrating an extremely difficult and complicated Iguodala trade; signing Livingston, e.g. So I don't think most Ws fans (other than especially whiny ones like me ) are too bummed about failing to add the Stifle Tower to the mix. 

 

[Kliq]

The thing with Gobert is how many lengthy Euro's have come into the NBA and done squat? I have no qualms with any GM passing him up because the track record of 7+ foot Euro's in the NBA is horrible.

 

[bowiac]

I don't think you can say a team "got cute" by trading down from #26 to #30. You say that when you trade out of #2 to #6 or something because your favorite player is still available. ~25 teams in the league passed on Gobert in favor of someone else, and between 23-25 of them are going to regret it. 

 

[jon abbey]

Dwayne Wade, still a thug, clubbing Millsap in the head trying to "defend" Millsap's dunk.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

I don't think you can say a team "got cute" by trading down from #26 to #30. 

Well, drafting an obscure Euro combo guard who was not projected that high was a little cute, but point well taken. If that obscure Euro combo guard had ended up Manu 2.0, I'd be singing a different tune.

Basically, by "got cute" I mean "failed to hit their fifth straight draft home run."

 

[ifmanis5]

Dwayne Wade, still a thug, clubbing Millsap in the head trying to "defend" Millsap's dunk.

Yup, he's been doing that overhand right punch move all his career and it has never been called for what it is. And of course if you breathe on the guy he'll flop like he was sniped. Can't wait until he's out of the league.
 
Pels 0-4. Let the terrible Hot Takes on them begin.
 
Oh, and you know Thibs is lone gone when the Bulls give up 130 to Charlotte. 130. To Charlotte.