2015-2016 Celtics regular season
- Thread starter Devizier
- Start date
You know Kemba put up 39 against him including running circles around Rondo for 18 in the 4th to come back from a double digit lead right?
He's got scorers with him so he'll have big assist numbers by dumping it in to Boogie but man he doesn't hide his distaste for defensive effort these days.
He's got scorers with him so he'll have big assist numbers by dumping it in to Boogie but man he doesn't hide his distaste for defensive effort these days.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/5
Check out this list (SF ranked by RAPM):
Kawhi
Lebron
P. George
Kevin Durant
and
.
.
.
wait for it
.
.
.
Jae Crowder
Check out this list (SF ranked by RAPM):
Kawhi
Lebron
P. George
Kevin Durant
and
.
.
.
wait for it
.
.
.
Jae Crowder
This Warriors game reminds me a little of the Patriots game against St. Louis during the 2001 regular season. Obviously an imperfect analogy, because the Celtics certainly are not championship contenders, but I think they will acquit themselves well and confirm that they are, in fact, one of the better teams in the NBA. I laughed a little at Bowiac's preseason statistical analysis projecting the Celtics as a 2 seed in the East, but I think the C's are in the mix for a home court first round playoff series and could win a playoff series or two.
Perhaps this is interesting only to me, but Dwight Powell is ranked 3rd among PFs in DRPM behind only Green and KG. Maybe this was a bigger by talent than people originally thought . . . .
DA has an uncommon eye for spotting guys who can actually play.
I remember, which is why I said I only laughed a little! I thought maybe 44-45 wins and a 5 or 6 seed would be a great step forward. But this team is fourth in the NBA in point differential (first in the East), second-ranked defensively (Amir and a full season of Crowder have helped a lot) and have the best young coach in the game who is wringing everything he can out of them. And they're fun to watch to boot.
They are so much fun to watch. I cant remember enjoying basketball this much since the mid to late 80s and a lot of that was simply because those were just happy times in my life with family.
They are fun to watch indeed. This is also one of my issues with "The Process" in Philly. Besides the issue of player development, there is also value as a fan to seeing a good product on the floor, even if I know it's not going to compete for a title this year. Flags fly forever, but there are fond memories being formed here too. "Title or bust" is just too simplistic.
My soon-to-be brother in law has been getting partial season tix in Philly the last couple years - it's relatively cheap, they have young kids and are treated like royalty by necessity (they were instantly upgraded at the mere mention of maybe not renewing).
Anyway, he has been on board the Hinkie Express since day one, made fun of me last year for the C's making the playoffs and has worked the word "value" into every conversation we've had about Philly for the last three years. Just saw him over Thanksgiving, though, and another year of unwatchable basketball is wearing on him. This is a guy happy to pay actual money to see a team that was openly constructed not to win, and even he is cracking.
Amen!
It's a bit early, but the talent we have here might be mostly keepers; in the sense the vibe and togetherness is excellent. Being clever about moving parts around, and you may not get this back (case in point: how did NOP and Sacto look?).
Thus, is this team in something of a go-for-it-now mode? Would it be sensible to trade some of the picks for a missing piece, especially someone who can make their own shot when things get tight, rather than wait for the available super star?
For example, would it make sense to trade with Brooklyn: say, Lee + one of their first round picks + one of the protected picks for T Young or B Lopez?
Good lord no. Neither Lopez or Young move the needle for this team. It's not like there's a glaring hole at PF/C for this team that needs to be filled by a slightly above average player. They've got that already in spades.
Only reason to do that is push the Nets further into tank mode and hopefully improve that draft choice. Not sure Lee is a big enough drop off to really make that happen, although if he was pissed enough at being on the Nets he might be.
Assuming the Nets pick this season is off the table.... If the Celtics can make the Nets worse this year, it could be a nice double move. Disguise an attempt to submarine the Nets the year as a "go-for-it-now" trade. I'd offer one of the future Nets picks back to them, but protect it top 5 or something, just to really irritate Billy King.
Edit:
Also...who gave me this bizarre Rad Universe pic and how do I get rid of it?
Double edit:
Figured it out
If Ainge had any interest in a trade like that I'm guessing it would already be done. And King would never make a deal without getting one of his picks back unprotected, which is an easy pass for me. Lopez has never had much of a positive impact on wins and a ballstopping big doesn't do it for me.
It was noted in the game-thread for the Warriors game but this Celtics team gave the Warriors their toughest test this season. Granted the Warriors were without Harrison Barnes and Klay Thompson but as others noted, the Celtics were without Smart who would have given Thompson a tough time.
I am a C's fan first and foremost so I was rooting for them while still marveling at what Golden State has done over the past season plus. I know a few folks were pissed at the outcome of the game but frankly I am pretty excited for the Celtics going forward. If they can nab a star player in the draft or Danny pulls some magic out of his hat, the Celtics have a shot to be one of the best teams in the East. I may have to get league pass to watch them now...
I am a C's fan first and foremost so I was rooting for them while still marveling at what Golden State has done over the past season plus. I know a few folks were pissed at the outcome of the game but frankly I am pretty excited for the Celtics going forward. If they can nab a star player in the draft or Danny pulls some magic out of his hat, the Celtics have a shot to be one of the best teams in the East. I may have to get league pass to watch them now...
I watched my first game on LP last night and if you haven't seen the home feed for a while, the Celts team introduction might be the worst I've ever seen. I thought it sucked the life out of the crowd. Since when did a Celtics fan need MAKE NOISE flashed at them?
That said, LP is a free preview right now if you want to catch tonight's game.
edit: And this Celts team is definitely for real. A bunch of above average players, playing hard and together, with a coach who excels at putting his players in a position to succeed. One big advantage the Warriors have that was quite visible to me is their continuity. They've been playing together for a while and it shows. The Celts are playing well and look good but we're only 23 games into the season. They're going to get better in the second half of the year.
Last edited:
How will Brooklyn's 3 unprotecteds be used over the next 3 years? Whomever you draft probably won't be ready for prime time, so what you have is a chance at an impact player in 3 to 5 years. If you are in a deep rebuild, that's tolerable.
But -- and after nearly a season of this team playing together this isn't a small sample -- the celts are NOT in rebuild more. Add a few parts and they can go for it now -- and be an attractive destination for a big time free agent.
So cash in those unprotecteds! Seems fitting to give 'em back to Brooklyn; and seems feasible-- they REALLY NEED picks. And who else has assets and needs to start a deep rebuild?
Lastly, to my mind the celts need an effective, score when it is hard to score, non-guard. Can Lopez or Young provide that? Can they accept playing 20+ minutes a game?
As for Lee -- someone has to go (and match salaries).
Nice article on SB Nation on the Celtics' defense this year.
It was written right before the Golden State game, so it might have changed, but the numbers are nice:
"The Celtics currently allow the third-fewest amount of points per 100 possessions in the league... The Celtics are containing both threats on the pick-and-roll, ranking ninth in the league in points per possession allowed to the ball handler and 10th in points per possession allowed to roll men, per Synergy Sports. The guards always work hard to get back to the original assignment, and if they can't, Boston will switch to prevent an open shot....
Opponents take just 21 three-point attempts per 48 minutes against the Celtics, the fifth-fewest in the league. They also connect on 33.3 percent of them, the eighth-lowest mark in the league. Teams generally have more control over the number of threes opponents attempt than the percentage they make, so Boston's combination can be sustained over the long haul.
That combination of solid pick-and-roll and three-point defense makes Boston hard to defeat in half-court situations."
"The Celtics rank fifth in the league both in pace and in offensive rebound percentage, but still allow the second-fewest fast break points in the league. Even adjusting for pace, they are in the bottom five. Boston's opponents have only bested their fast-break point average four times in 22 games, and two of those (the Rockets and 76ers) did most of their damage in blowouts when the score wasn't in question. It's really hard to beat Boston down the court unless it's on a live-ball turnover."
It was written right before the Golden State game, so it might have changed, but the numbers are nice:
"The Celtics currently allow the third-fewest amount of points per 100 possessions in the league... The Celtics are containing both threats on the pick-and-roll, ranking ninth in the league in points per possession allowed to the ball handler and 10th in points per possession allowed to roll men, per Synergy Sports. The guards always work hard to get back to the original assignment, and if they can't, Boston will switch to prevent an open shot....
Opponents take just 21 three-point attempts per 48 minutes against the Celtics, the fifth-fewest in the league. They also connect on 33.3 percent of them, the eighth-lowest mark in the league. Teams generally have more control over the number of threes opponents attempt than the percentage they make, so Boston's combination can be sustained over the long haul.
That combination of solid pick-and-roll and three-point defense makes Boston hard to defeat in half-court situations."
"The Celtics rank fifth in the league both in pace and in offensive rebound percentage, but still allow the second-fewest fast break points in the league. Even adjusting for pace, they are in the bottom five. Boston's opponents have only bested their fast-break point average four times in 22 games, and two of those (the Rockets and 76ers) did most of their damage in blowouts when the score wasn't in question. It's really hard to beat Boston down the court unless it's on a live-ball turnover."
Brook isn't the guy we need. He just isn't. Unless you think we need somebody to shoot 20 footers all game and never pass the ball.
Edit: for $20 million a year.
Last edited:
You never, under any circumstances, ever, trade unprotected picks from cellar dwellers back to said cellar dwellers in exchange for guys to play "20+ minutes a night". As in not ever. You only cash in top five picks for real difference makers. Period. End of story.
I was at the game. Absolutely nothing sucked the life out of the crowd. Been to plenty of playoff games and that atmosphere was better than anyone except for game 6 vs MIA until LeBron murdered us.
You actually think the best you can get for a bottom 3 teams unprotected lotto pick is Young or Lopez? No thank you. Theyre not going to be worse than the 76ers or LAL no matter what trade they do or do not make. Hard pass.
sssf, I meant during the intro, not during the game. Crowd was great. Intro was embarrassing in my view.
Well it makes in difference in terms of who you can get for the pick. But not even then in some instances. Unfortunately for Boston Paul George has made the transition to the PF spot in Indiana, so the dream scenario where he demanded out and Boston pounced is out. The summer market looks like Carmelo Anthony at the moment. In season all I see are buy low roleplayer deals from teams likely to blow up the margins this year (e.g. I could see the Hornets tanking the season and looking to move Tyreke Evans & Omer Asik to get those deals off their cap). And there's no sense in giving up lottery picks for guys like that.
Washington is a possibility as they might be desperate enough to upgrade at the 4/5, but it's not like they have a lot to deal.
Stated that way, it doesn't sound good
Still, for those who are so enamored of a slew of somewhere in top 5 picks (nighthob) -- the Celts shouldn't trade value for value? A "somewhere in top 5" (assuming the nets continue to stink for 3 years) has exactly what value; assuming one doesn't dream of best case scenarios and then decide they are bound to happen?
And don't forget, you keep these picks, and where do you play the kids you draft (what currently productive player do you sit to allow a raw talent to learn how to play in the NBA).
Maybe Brooklyn has nothing of significant impact, but who does who really needs to make a move?
They traded #5 for Ray Allen a few years ago. That's a good deal. A similar type of deal wouldn't be bad.
Dreaming of best-case scenarios is fine. You need to get lucky to win a title. It's fine to hope for some luck there.
You're right Brooklyn has nothing of value, and if nobody else does either, then you just roll with the picks. The roster crunch is annoying, but even then, this team is giving major minutes to Evan Turner, and can probably stand to even further cut David Lee's playing time too. You can find a way to make that work, and if you can't, then you make a low level trade (i.e., I expect someone would give up a mid-first for Olynyk?)
Yeah this trade deadline shopping list reminds of me 2006 (or 07 I forget) when there was talk of Iverson coming here on the back nine of his career. That simply isn't Danny's M.O. to acquire this type of player. I had faith that Ainge would hold on to these picks for a clear cut Win.......until it came out that he was ready to unload to the Knicks for #4 not for my man Godzingis but for Justise Winslow. My faith isn't what it was after hearing this.
I don't see that roster crunch everyone is talking about. We have bench players competing for minutes which is a good thing. The middle and back end of our roster is fine.....the problem is the top end which of course are the most difficult to acquire. That is our biggest problem.....not worrying about a manufactured "crunch" that costs guys like Zeller and Jerebko minutes. I was never a big Turner guy but he is quickly reinventing himself as a defensive specialist and versatile offensive player capable of taking advantage of identifying mismatches. I've been impressed with him finding himself this season.
Theres 2million of these stories every year. I highly doubt he would have taken Winslow at 4 TBH.
You don't see a roster issue next year if they add three more picks, one of might need to be in the rotation? The "crunch" isn't about Zeller/Jerebko. It's about Rozier, Hunter, whoever is taken with the Brooklyn pick, and maybe even James Young or Jordan Mickey.
It was confirmed by Zach Lowe that Winslow was the target then Ainge tried desperately to get him at 9 too. He's as legit a source as they come.
If there is a crunch with young players in roster spots 12-15 then you can say that EVERY team has a roster crunch.....that is what those roster spots are for.
Pick a team....any team. Houston say. They have young unproven players in those roster slots just as we do in Sam Dekker, KJ McDaniels, and Montrezl Harrell. That is what these roster slots are used for.....unproven young players just as we have in those slots.
Last edited:
If the Celtics end up drafting in the top 3 or 4, that's not a player you especially want to bury in the 12th spot on the rotation. But the "crunch" isn't about 12-15, it's about the lack of minutes for someone like Olynyk so far, and the "TBD" situation with Smart. The Celtics are a young team right now with nobody playing more than 32 minutes a game. That happens with older teams, but it's a sign of a roster situation with a team as young as the Celtics.
Rozier/Hunter/Young/Mickey don't matter right now, but they're salient in the future if any of them develop. You ideally want to find minutes for them too in that scenario.
Rozier/Hunter/Young/Mickey don't matter right now, but they're salient in the future if any of them develop. You ideally want to find minutes for them too in that scenario.
That is not what happens with only older teams. There are currently only 9 qualified NBA players averaging 36 mpg in the entire league......only 42 players at 33+ minutes. The large majority of starters are in the 30-32 mpg range.
Unless you have an elite player you don't want to have players out there for greater than 30-32 minutes where they are forced to play longer rotations while expending less energy which is why regular rotations throughout the league are now 9-10 deep. Olynyk began the season in competition to be in the regular rotation and outlasted Zeller and Jerebko......he isn't a guy you want to expose to a ton of minutes on a regular basis but hey if he earns those minutes great. Smart is a combo guard/6th man who doesn't have the skillset of an NBA starting PG so I expect him to be continue to be used in that role as Stevens has used him in. I don't feel there is anything TBD with him, he's a solid rotation energy combo guard who figures to work best at 25-28 mpg.
If we draft in the high lottery these are the guys who are typically talented enough to step right in and play minutes. We don't have Zeller, Sullinger, Lee, Johnson, or Jerebko guaranteed under contract for next season so there is plenty of flexibility on the roster for next season and beyond particularly in the frontcourt if you are concerned with Olynyk. The players you mentioned above (Rozier/Young/Hunter/Mickey) are mid/late 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder......you never want to go into a season with them in your rotation plans or you are beginning the season behind the 8-ball. These are cheap depth guys who will get an opportunity at some point over 82 games during their first two seasons......there is zero reason to force feed the back of the roster minutes early in their rookie year when you are competing for playoff spots as we should, and most teams should, begin the season with veterans who are simply better. That's just how NBA teams not named the Sixers structure their roster so you don't play unproven players when it isn't necessary early in the season.
Last edited:
Honestly, I don't see many options for a trade with the picks at this moment. Maybe Eric Bledsoe if the Suns decide to punt, but guard is currently a position of relative strength. And there's no indication that the Suns will punt, especially since the West is kind of shitty this year.
This is my thought, the guys that were potentially going to force their way onto the market have either changed their minds (e.g. Paul George), haven't changed their GMs' minds despite uninspired play (e.g. Harden), or you want no part of (e.g. D-Rose). I keep saying throwing away lottery picks just to say you've done something is foolhardy. That's how you end up becoming the Nets, not how you become an actual contender.
This is just not true, and I don't know where you got "36 minutes" from. Isaiah Thomas leads the Celtics in minutes per game at 32. That ranks 48th in the league overall. 28 of the other teams in the league have a starter averaging more minutes. Only the Lakers have someone leading their team in fewer minutes (Clarkson, also at 32 minutes), and that's because they have few actual NBA players. Actual NBA usage patterns reflect the roster crunch already.
The point with Smart isn't that his role is TBD, it's that once he returns, that's even fewer minutes available for the rest of the team. It seems to me your point is that there's no issue if the Celtics just jettison good NBA players like Sullinger and Johnson next year, and continue not playing Olynyk or Smart very much... Well, okay? Sure, if you ignore the consequences, then I agree, there's no problem! But insofar as the Celtics want to maximize the value of their existing roster and let young talent develop, then yes, there's a looming problem.
Well Yes, it is true that a small percentage of starters average more 32 mpg which is the ideal norm for non-elite players. In a perfect world we'd have a perennial All-Star playing 36 mpg for us (only 9 in the league currently do) named LeBron, George, DeRozan, Lillard, and the others.......but we don't have that elite player which is why Brad utilizes our depth and balance to maximize the 48 minutes at each position. Overexposing fatigued players for the sole purpose of elevating their minutes when you have capable players on the bench playing fewer minutes doesn't appear optimal and I don't know your reasoning for suggesting this is ideal. We need top tier players who deserve and can handle those additional minutes......we know this. The reason nobody is averaging more than 32 mpg isn't due to any perceived "roster crunch" it is because we don't have any elite players where it is advantageous to have them playing extended minutes at the expense of fresher legs when there is a marginal difference in their ability.
James Young is playing 17 mpg the past 4 games with Isaiah forced to play 46 and 39 within a 27 hour period......I'd say there is plenty of room for Smart's 25-28 mpg while maximizing output at the 1 and 2. Nobody is saying to jettison good players as they are valuable assets for Ainge to utilize in hopefully acquiring that player worthy and capable of being a 36 mpg elite player......only stating that whatever minutes our lottery pick is ready to play he isn't going to be blocked but an imaginary "roster crunch." The 9-10 man rotation where depth is necessary and is a strength of this team yet you seem intent on wanting to purposely weaken one of the primary reasons we are able to be one of leagues best defensive team due in large part of the depth and the minutes distribution that Brad is utilizing.
All but one team in the NBA has a starter averaging more minutes than the Celtics leading starter. It's not some small percentage of teams. It's everyone but the Lakers. The 47 players getting more minutes than Thomas are all LeBron-esque perennial All-Stars in your opinion?
While the competition for minutes among the rather crowded Celtics roster is not typical, it does sound more like a feature than a bug. Either way, the roster issue by itself is not a reason to simply throw the potential high lottery pick back to Brooklyn (or any other team, for that matter) for pennies on the dollar. At this time in 2006 no one thought both Ray Allen and KG would be available either.
There are ten players in the entire NBA averaging what used to be considered starter minutes (36 minutes per game, which is why so many of the stat sites used to use /36 as the projection number). I think it's safe to say that most of the league has rethought the way they manage rotations for the regular season.
Again, the point of the numbers I quoted are that the Celtics use their top players less than the rest of the league. This isn't the league shifting and the Celtics shifting with them. The Celtics are at the very bottom here (along with the Lakers). There may be ten players getting 36 minutes, but there are 47 players getting more minutes than Thomas (or were last night, when I ran those numbers).
I'm honestly perplexed there is pushback on this point - that the Celtics have an unusually deep roster?
I'm honestly perplexed there is pushback on this point - that the Celtics have an unusually deep roster?