We drafted him for New Jersey who was picking 2 slots below us. JaJuan Johnson was Ainge’s guy in that slot and Dallas, who was sandwiched between the teams, had MarShon on their radar as they were looking for a scoring wing.I do not remember the Celtics drafting MarShon Brooks.
Yeah but I remember stuff like Troy Bell and Dahntay Jones. I just completely forgot we drafted Brooks.We drafted him for New Jersey who was picking 2 slots below us. JaJuan Johnson was Ainge’s guy in that slot and Dallas, who was sandwiched between the teams, had MarShon on their radar as they were looking for a scoring wing.
The calendar holds no prisoners.Yeah but I remember stuff like Troy Bell and Dahntay Jones. I just completely forgot we drafted Brooks.
Billionaire owners have egos and many refuse to help improve a divisional rival. This has been going on for decades and we've been over it here many times before. It isn't about anything on the court but moreso off the court in some manner whether it be afraid to have the player haunt you or as simple as ones ego not allowing yourself to help a team like the Lakers.
Made all the more bold knowing he’s got Adams there to regulate if shit actually jumps off.Westbrook is an elite "hold me back" fake tough guy.
It apparently stems from the criticism Sarver took around the league for essentially gifting Tyson Chandler to the Lakers and he didn’t want to continue down that road of perceived collusion.I understand all that. I wasn’t wondering why just marveling at how dumb it is.
So this deal ends up being some lint and spare change for someone else's lint and spare change. You can come at me with what the trade machine says in terms of win delta but I will simply say that this changes nothing for either team. Nothing.Ariza deal finalized. He goes to Washington for Rivers and Oubre.
It’s more than that. They don’t have a single NBA quality BACKUP 1 on their roster much less enough to cover 48 minutes unless this is how they want to use Booker which to me is an awful use of resources. You can’t develop players or even run a basis offensive set with Melton in the first unit while forced to use Daniels and J-Crawford on the ball. At least with Rivers st the 1 for 35-40 mpg he can put the rest of the lineup in positions to play their game. The other night was a train wreck even in a win!So this deal ends up being some lint and spare change for someone else's lint and spare change. You can come at me with what the trade machine says in terms of win delta but I will simply say that this changes nothing for either team. Nothing.
Edit: I know Oubre looks attractive on paper for the Suns but unless I need the body, I'd let the guy walk next year. He cannot really shoot from deep and his defense sucks - he is not a guy I want taking minutes from younger, higher upside players. Of course, Bill Simmons can now watch him play in a more convenient time zone.
Somewhat ironically, the second round pick that Ainge received from the Nets in 2011 went back to Brooklyn in the Pierce/Garnett trade, when the Celtics ":reacquired" Marshon..We drafted him for New Jersey who was picking 2 slots below us. JaJuan Johnson was Ainge’s guy in that slot and Dallas, who was sandwiched between the teams, had MarShon on their radar as they were looking for a scoring wing.
Fair enough. I mean, I would almost prefer to sign a G-league ball-handler than give that role to Austin Rivers who, deserved or not, appears to have a clubhouse malcontent label attached to him. I have no problem with the Suns bringing in veterans to give some of the kids a stable influence - J-Crossover and Ariza seem to be fairly well respected so they fit the bill. However if Rivers is anything like his reputation, its a bad fit for a young team.It’s more than that. They don’t have a single NBA quality BACKUP 1 on their roster much less enough to cover 48 minutes unless this is how they want to use Booker which to me is an awful use of resources. You can’t develop players or even run a basis offensive set with Melton in the first unit while forced to use Daniels and J-Crawford on the ball. At least with Rivers st the 1 for 35-40 mpg he can put the rest of the lineup in positions to play their game. The other night was a train wreck even in a win!
Maybe I'm watching basketball on Earth-90, but I'd like to hear more about why Oubre can't play defense.Edit: I know Oubre looks attractive on paper for the Suns but unless I need the body, I'd let the guy walk next year. He cannot really shoot from deep and his defense sucks - he is not a guy I want taking minutes from younger, higher upside players. Of course, Bill Simmons can now watch him play in a more convenient time zone.
The Suns have been trying with a G-League point guard with veteran stability in Crawford and it isn’t working. Rivers and Oubre give the Suns actual NBA players for this team to try and be competitive in these games on both ends of the floor (don’t understand the dislike for Oubre’s defense). There are limits to giving young undeserving players minutes when it results in the Suns damaging their brand while not putting someone like Ayton in a position to succeed without having guards able to execute an offense. At the very least the presence of Rivers and Oubre will add some stability to their guard/wing rotation.Fair enough. I mean, I would almost prefer to sign a G-league ball-handler than give that role to Austin Rivers who, deserved or not, appears to have a clubhouse malcontent label attached to him. I have no problem with the Suns bringing in veterans to give some of the kids a stable influence - J-Crossover and Ariza seem to be fairly well respected so they fit the bill. However if Rivers is anything like his reputation, its a bad fit for a young team.
Oubre is still finding his role in this league but is in that weird spot where he is fairly young but hasn't defined his game. As such, he needs playing time but I would be hard pressed to give it to him over a younger, higher-upside player. Add Rivers and his baggage and I don't get what the Suns are doing here.
Ariza is in his prime as a 3-and-D glue guy. Houston was a great situation for his skill set as would the Lakers have been. Phoenix hasn’t run a functionable offensive set sincerely Booker went down. It was an awful fit for him.Ariza's poor play this season may just be a function of playing with Phoenix.
JoshThis deal just reinforces the conventional wisdom that the Lakers intend to be serious players in the Anthony Davis sweepstakes. They wouldn't even give up Jason Hart to get Ariza.
Aside from deflections, what am I missing about his defense? I get that the metrics are flawed but he is bad whether you use DBPM or D rating or just about anything else that is publicly available. And that is discounting the eye test which suggests he plays lackadaisical defense too.Maybe I'm watching basketball on Earth-90, but I'd like to hear more about why Oubre can't play defense.
Note deflections - admittedly not defense - are in top 5-isn in NBA.
As for Oubre's defense, first off he's 23 and not that many people are consistent lockdown defenders at 23. He's got all the physical tools to do so and he's got the motor. He's regularly asked to guard the other team's best scorer and the eye test says that he can do a credible job on 1s and 4s as well. Plus, he's on a team that shows an overall defensive indifference so I'm not sure the defensive statistics are the best place to evaluate him.Aside from deflections, what am I missing about his defense? I get that the metrics are flawed but he is bad whether you use DBPM or D rating or just about anything else that is publicly available. And that is discounting the eye test which suggests he plays lackadaisical defense too.
That said, I am open to being convinced otherwise.
I agree with pretty much everything you say here regarding Oubre.As for Oubre's defense, first off he's 23 and not that many people are consistent lockdown defenders at 23. He's got all the physical tools to do so and he's got the motor. He's regularly asked to guard the other team's best scorer and the eye test says that he can do a credible job on 1s and 4s as well. Plus, he's on a team that shows an overall defensive indifference so I'm not sure the defensive statistics are the best place to evaluate him.
I don't watch a ton of the 'Zards but I watch some. The article linked in this reddit discussion from last spring and the ensuing comments sum up my thoughts, which is that Oubre shows flashes of being an elite defensive player but lacks consistency and a proper environment: https://www.reddit.com/r/washingtonwizards/comments/870x8i/kelly_oubre_is_an_enigma/.
I think he'd be a great defender on the Cs.
Mavs short handed in the backcourt with both DSJ and Barea out coming off embarrassing loss to Phoenix on Thursday. Jalen Brunson getting the start with Devin Harris seeing larger role. Good bounce back spot for Dallas here.Key matchup tonight: Kings vs. Mavs. Could be a preview of a couple of teams slugging it out for the final playoff spot. Go Mavs! Win one for the pick!
Looking forward to seeing Brunson play. He suffered from the Brogdon/VanVleet/Hart NBA draft syndrome. After having successful college careers they get drafted late (or not at all) and are cast as old guards with little upside.Mavs short handed in the backcourt with both DSJ and Barea out coming off embarrassing loss to Phoenix on Thursday. Jalen Brunson getting the start with Devin Harris seeing larger role. Good bounce back spot for Dallas here.
Lakers in one of those tricky dog days spot on the road coming off a blowout win against a depleted Wizards team. This could be one of those “surprise” games that really aren’t surprises due to the flat spot for LA.
i think the 4 year point guard is a good "moneyball" niche. Lots of those guys having good success in the league.Looking forward to seeing Brunson play. He suffered from the Brogdon/VanVleet/Hart NBA draft syndrome. After having successful college careers they get drafted late (or not at all) and are cast as old guards with little upside.
I don't get why people didn't see that before. 4 year players in general are going to be more ready to contribute, if that's what you need right now. PG even more so.i think the 4 year point guard is a good "moneyball" niche. Lots of those guys having good success in the league.
I feel the GM’s do see it but don’t value 2nd unit or rotational guards greater than a low-1st at best. Anything higher is generally reserved for the higher upside guys with obviously greater risk while you can pretty much acquire the Hart/Vanvleet/Brunson-types whenever you want. Of course Brogdon was the outlier here.I don't get why people didn't see that before. 4 year players in general are going to be more ready to contribute, if that's what you need right now. PG even more so.
Good question. The Celtics could potentially have a bunch of mid-1st picks, would they offer one of them (on the condition they are no higher than 15)?I feel the GM’s do see it but don’t value 2nd unit or rotational guards greater than a low-1st at best. Anything higher is generally reserved for the higher upside guys with obviously greater risk while you can pretty much acquire the Hart/Vanvleet/Brunson-types whenever you want. Of course Brogdon was the outlier here.
Of these 4 players would any go for a mid-1st if they were on the market? The Bucks hit a home run with Brogdon and that’s about his max value.
Didn't see the game but apparently Nick Nurse willingly signed up for the NBA's mandatory $25k fine for criticizing the officiating on Kawhi in the post-game presser. Part of me wonders if these orders came from above as a way of showing Kawhi that the Raptors have his back but apparently he was once again the "nice guy victim" similar to Brad in that he doesn't challenge the officials when questionable or bad decisions are made against them.Denver hangs on to win 95-86. The Nuggets now 20-9 and in first in the WC.
It's Josh Hart and he's already better than Trevor Ariza. They shouldn't be giving up a player like him for a potentially washed 3-and-D guy.This deal just reinforces the conventional wisdom that the Lakers intend to be serious players in the Anthony Davis sweepstakes. They wouldn't even give up Jason Hart to get Ariza.
Indeed. I love Arizas game but he looks cooked. Hart is pretty valuable as a rotation piece - I am not sure what an Ariza for Hart swap does for the Lakers anyway except to add more age to their roster.It's Josh Hart and he's already better than Trevor Ariza. They shouldn't be giving up player like him for a potentially washed 3-and-D guy.
Ariza is far from cooked. This is what 3-and-D role players look like in dysfunctional situations. People were blindly saying the same about Tyson Chandler when he was 35 a couple years ago while looking like crap in Phoenix. Ariza is 33 and in his prime for the role he's asked to play as he's a better shooter today than he was 6-7 years ago and a much wiser defender and leader.Indeed. I love Arizas game but he looks cooked. Hart is pretty valuable as a rotation piece - I am not sure what an Ariza for Hart swap does for the Lakers anyway except to add more age to their roster.
Finally, from what I've read, there was no such potential trade to start. As was discussed in this forum, Sarver instructed his front office not to trade Ariza to the Lakers.
Ariza has played 15 regular seasons plus a playoff career that has spanned what amounts to another season and a quarter. LeBron and Tom Brady and even Tyson Chandler (though the data doesn't lie - his performance has been in steady decline for about four years now) may have defied serious age related cliffs but Trevor Ariza, even before going to Phoenix, had shown signs that age was catching up with him. Some of his offensive numbers were up last year but I would argue that is just as attributable to the system he was in and players he was surrounded by in Houston as some of his decline is, no doubt, a function of being with the Suns.Ariza is far from cooked. This is what 3-and-D role players look like in dysfunctional situations. People were blindly saying the same about Tyson Chandler when he was 35 a couple years ago while looking like crap in Phoenix. Ariza is 33 and in his prime for the role he's asked to play as he's a better shooter today than he was 6-7 years ago and a much wiser defender and leader.