I'm okay with Pedro and Ortiz, but a kicker?God
The Father
The Holy Ghost
No, because I think we agree that athleticism should go beyond just speed, strength, endurance, reflex and agility. Tom Brady’s ability to run around, avoid defenders, thread the needle then run up to the LOS and diagnose a defense with his pulse at 160 incorporates a ton of athletic abilities.Which again goes back to my question of if we are talking about pure raw athleticism? Which I don't think is the spirit of the debate or else it's a kind of impossible one to have. There have been far better pure athletes than Bo - we recognize him because of the success he had, while we may not have ever even noticed the other ones because they flamed out. Once you bring success or recognition into the equation, the raw athleticism loses weight. I'd fully agree the play Gilmore made was more athletic than anything that happens on a golf course. I'd also say it's more athletic than anything the Tom Brady has ever done. You going with Gilmore in that debate for the better "athlete"? If the answer is yes, I think you're missing the spirit of the debate. Or I am. I dunno, I lost track...
I think this sentence best illustrates how you are approaching this question differently than some of the others here (including myself). The way I look at it is - similar to how we adjust for era when comparing 2 baseball players - in this exercise we must adjust for sport. If you don't agree that golf is a major sport, then we are definitely at an impasse. However, if we agree that it is a major sport, worthy of discussion, then we must measure its athletes relative to itself when it comes to career accomplishments, performance, and athletic traits. Put it this way: in an alternate universe where curling were more popular - to the point where one of its ice jockeys could become a global icon - then I would absolutely give its candidate(s) a hard look.Tell me with a straight face that Nicklaus, Woods or Palmer are as good an athlete as Deion, Ali or Bo Jackson
Ok, that's why you're the best poster on this site, right there.I'm okay with Pedro and Ortiz, but a kicker?
Well, that would be Adam Vinatieri, of course.I'm okay with Pedro and Ortiz, but a kicker?
Pretty good list, but you lose points for mispelling 'Orr'.My gut says
Gretzky
Jordan
Ruth (this is tough)
Brady
1. Assuming no arm injury, Ruth likely would have made Cooperstown had he never picked up a bat.I don't see how any list couldn't have Babe Ruth on it. He changed the game of baseball, and, in my opinion, will never be surpassed as the greatest baseball player of all time.
Although maybe his straight line speed wasn't as good as Danny Amendola's.
I think you missed it.Well, that would be Adam Vinatieri, of course.
Or, perhaps Morton Anderson if we don't want to get all skivvy waver on it. I mean, what's 57 points...but still counting?
I had him in both of those fights but I think I had Castillo in their first fight.I wouldn't put Mayweather there. He was too careful with who he fought. I also had him losing to de la Hoya and losing to Maidana.
No Hagler objectively won. And he also beat Hearns and Duran. He was a better boxer than Leonard, who isn’t a top ten guy for me.I had him in both of those fights but I think I had Castillo in their first fight.
I kind of hated Sugar Ray Leonard but he did some impressive things. Beating Hearns, Hagler, and Duran is really something (I scored Hagler as the winner but Hagler is my favorite boxer so I’m probably biased).
Well that's why Ainge>Jordan. Although I have a vague recollection of Ainge talking about how he imagined that if Jordan had been raised to be a tennis player he would have been the best tennis player ever.Michael Jordan sucked as a baseball player. Pretty much disqualifies him from being more than a one-note athlete.
At least until LeBron came alongWell that's why Ainge>Jordan. Although I have a vague recollection of Ainge talking about how he imagined that if Jordan had been raised to be a tennis player he would have been the best tennis player ever.
Well that's why Ainge>Jordan. Although I have a vague recollection of Ainge talking about how he imagined that if Jordan had been raised to be a tennis player he would have been the best tennis player ever.
I won’t speak for others, but I get your point, I just think it’s not in spirit of the discussion proposed and oddly being far too specific and vague at the same time. You’re mixing criteria. The vast majority of people even nearing the conversation are one sport athletes. The Deions and Bos are pretty unique and that discussion would be, as you say, limited. As someone else said, MJ couldn’t hit a baseball, but who knows if he could have been better had he trained more. Not that I’m throwing Tiger on a short list or arguing he’d be top 4, I’m saying eliminating him because he plays golf seems short sighted to me. Look at the man, he revolutionized being physically dominant in the sport and transformed how golfers trained, to the point it ruined a likely HoFer’s career in David Duval because he tried to keep up. He won at the highest peak on a broken knee. Golf is about more than hand eye coordination and while you weigh the individual components of boxing - partly because you’re more privy to them as a boxer - you discount them because you don’t know golf at that level. Saying golf is just swinging a club is saying boxing is just throwing a punch and being strong.Maybe I’m being unclear still. My conception of athleticism is broad enough to rank Brady as a better athlete than someone like Tyreke Hill who is clearly a better traditional athlete.
Also, we’re talking about the 4 best athletes ever. If you wanna throw Woods on a top 50 list, that’s cool. The top 4 athletes of all time, to me, has to be someone who has showcased broad based athletic skill. So, yeah, a one sport athlete who only played golf is pretty much de facto disqualified. Maybe that limits the conversation a bit, but if we were talking best performer ever I’ll take MJ over Dylan even if Dylan is arguably the better, more influential musician. Now, maybe Dylan can moonwalk while singing Tangled Up In Blue, but until he does he wouldn’t get the benefit of the doubt.
What are we even saying are athletic skills.I won’t speak for others, but I get your point, I just think it’s not in spirit of the discussion proposed and oddly being far too specific and vague at the same time. You’re mixing criteria. The vast majority of people even nearing the conversation are one sport athletes. The Deions and Bos are pretty unique and that discussion would be, as you say, limited. As someone else said, MJ couldn’t hit a baseball, but who knows if he could have been better had he trained more. Not that I’m throwing Tiger on a short list or arguing he’d be top 4, I’m saying eliminating him because he plays golf seems short sighted to me. Look at the man, he revolutionized being physically dominant in the sport and transformed how golfers trained, to the point it ruined a likely HoFer’s career in David Duval because he tried to keep up. He won at the highest peak on a broken knee. Golf is about more than hand eye coordination and while you weigh the individual components of boxing - partly because you’re more privy to them as a boxer - you discount them because you don’t know golf at that level. Saying golf is just swinging a club is saying boxing is just throwing a punch and being strong.
I don't think the result of any judged athletic competition ever has made me angrierNo Hagler objectively won.
It was a bad decision and I think most people knew that. I was far angrier with the Roy Jones Olympic screw job in South Korea. That was as one sided a fight as I have ever seen. I think he got hit about three times.I don't blame Leonard from ducking and running for 12 rounds, if he hadn't Hagler would have killed him.
I was pissed with that decision.
Ehn ... the Jones decision was political travesty and he gained enormously from the controversyIt was a bad decision and I think most people knew that. I was far angrier with the Roy Jones Olympic screw job in South Korea. That was as one sided a fight as I have ever seen. I think he got hit about three times.
Maybe both. Maybe in part due to his swing since it was high stress on his left side for a while. Tiger has had so many injuries it's tough to know where to start. There's a decent rundown here:I’m not saying that at all. But, what caused Tiger’s injuries; I never really followed. We’re they related to the weight training or just genetic flukes?
If we're strictly going by the narrow definition of broad athletic success, the four might be Jim Thorpe, Jackie Robinson, Jim Brown, and Didrikson ZahariasDidrikson Zaharias is criminally underrepresented in this thread. The body of work across multiple domains is crazy.
SexistIf we're strictly going by the narrow definition of broad athletic success, the four might be Jim Thorpe, Jackie Robinson, Jim Brown, and Didrikson Zaharias
Pedro is in for sure.Gutzon Borglum selected these four presidents because from his perspective, they represented the most important events in the history of the United States.
I think it's more a reflection of how obsessed national media have become with equating eras of sport and athletes. There's no real thought process put into it, other than to get people thinking you're saying something.I just think it's a real testimony to Brady that people are mentioning him in the same breath as these all-time great athletes regardless of their sport.
I think it’d be remiss to leave out the ‘Navy Seal’ endeavors (tho that may be included in the article linked, I’ll admit I didn’t click, I root hard for him but there’s only so much I can read about his injuries). I think it’s clear the injuries started before the car wreck, since that seemingly played a part in it, with him hopped up on meds when it happened.Maybe both. Maybe in part due to his swing since it was high stress on his left side for a while. Tiger has had so many injuries it's tough to know where to start. There's a decent rundown here:
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/tiger-woods-injury-timeline/story?id=42708936
And the tough to label/diagnose mental wound from that whole Thanksgiving car wreck and subsequent private life unmasking.
But Favre was nowhere close and Manning just had the counting stats.. so neither actually were close to Brady.. Brady does actually have a legit claim.. be it longevity, wins, Super Bowls etc.. his numbers are comparable on a number of levels.I think it's more a reflection of how obsessed national media have become with equating eras of sport and athletes. There's no real thought process put into it, other than to get people thinking you're saying something.
Hell, we went throughFavre being called the greatest ever to Manning being called the greatest ever. Now it's Brady's turn ... probably Rodgers next
I wasn’t aware he played football, but wasn’t his call up to the Blue Jays based on some contract clause requiring it, or am I mixing him up with someone else. And no not Wily Mo Pena.I’m not sure if you are kidding or not but the discussion alone of Ainge vs Jordan is interesting.
Ainge was a solid NBA player, made the MLB and could have played football at a high level
It was fun having to go cover each game WAITING for him to get a hit. The world depended on Sarasota and was long gone while he was "thudding" his way to 0-for. I'm pretty sure his first MLB spring training hit was a missed call. I think the throw from third beat him.Michael Jordan sucked as a baseball player. Pretty much disqualifies him from being more than a one-note athlete.
Didn't his required call up with the Jays open up the window for him to have to go play basketball? How did Red factor into this?I wasn’t aware he played football, but wasn’t his call up to the Blue Jays based on some contract clause requiring it, or am I mixing him up with someone else. And no not Wily Mo Pena.
He's a much better sports executive than Jordan as wellI’m not sure if you are kidding or not but the discussion alone of Ainge vs Jordan is interesting.
Ainge was a solid NBA player, made the MLB and could have played football at a high level
Two-time All-State from Eugene. First team All-American in three sports, only guy ever to pull that off.I wasn’t aware he played football, but wasn’t his call up to the Blue Jays based on some contract clause requiring it, or am I mixing him up with someone else. And no not Wily Mo Pena.
This SI article from near that time isn't definite on the matter but it says “the consensus among major league scouts is that Ainge was rushed to the majors by Toronto” and doesn't mention anything about a contractual requirement. However, he was being paid a lot of money (for the time) out of the gate, so maybe the Jays felt pressure to get MLB production. “To deter NBA clubs from trying to woo Ainge, the Blue Jays signed him to a contract that provided for a $50,000 salary the first year, $75,000 the second and $100,000 the third. He also accepted a $300,000 bonus for agreeing not to play professional basketball.”I wasn’t aware he played football, but wasn’t his call up to the Blue Jays based on some contract clause requiring it, or am I mixing him up with someone else. And no not Wily Mo Pena.
No, his contract with the Jays included a ban on him playing basketball for the duration (which would've been through the 1983 season). He tried to claim that their ownership had verbally released him, but lost in court. The Celtics wound up paying a considerable buyout to Toronto to get him released.Didn't his required call up with the Jays open up the window for him to have to go play basketball? How did Red factor into this?
I should have remembered this from my Sunday Globe notes from Bob Ryan! Thanks for clarifying.This SI article from near that time isn't definite on the matter but it says “the consensus among major league scouts is that Ainge was rushed to the majors by Toronto” and doesn't mention anything about a contractual requirement. However, he was being paid a lot of money (for the time) out of the gate, so maybe the Jays felt pressure to get MLB production. “To deter NBA clubs from trying to woo Ainge, the Blue Jays signed him to a contract that provided for a $50,000 salary the first year, $75,000 the second and $100,000 the third. He also accepted a $300,000 bonus for agreeing not to play professional basketball.”
He was playing for the Blue Jays (professionally) while he was in college and was still NCAA eligible in basketball.
Orson Scott Card (Ender's Game) apparently wrote a biography of Ainge that was released in 1981.
No, his contract with the Jays included a ban on him playing basketball for the duration (which would've been through the 1983 season). He tried to claim that their ownership had verbally released him, but lost in court. The Celtics wound up paying a considerable buyout to Toronto to get him released.