The Mount Rushmore of....Athletes?

Marciano490 · Jan 24, 2018

Lists like this are funny to me. First, nobody - even me - thinks Marciano or Louis are the greatest boxer ever. Nobody series thinks Ali was. I mean, guy pretty evenly split 44 rounds with Joe Frazier.

Anyways, I think we discussed some of this in the Fultz thread, but people always associate speed/strength/endurance with athleticism, and sure they're important, but it's a huge discount to other things that are equally if not more important like vision, reflexes, sport-specific intelligence.

Having people like Woods and Nicklaus and Bolt on there seems off. They've proven they're good at exactly one task. Maybe they're good at a lot of things, but their sport doesn't require them to be.

Marciano490 · Jan 24, 2018

Okay, if you're going to put Bolt in, doesn't Bill Kazmaier or Magnus ver Magnusson or some other powerlifter or strongman have to be, too?

As for best boxer ever? Lomachenko might be by the time he retires. Otherwise, probably Ray Robinson, Harry Greb or Roy Jones, Jr.

brandonchristensen · Jan 24, 2018

My gut says

Gretzky
Jordan
Ruth (this is tough)
Brady

Papelbon's Poutine · Jan 24, 2018

Marciano490 said:
Having people like Woods and Nicklaus and Bolt on there seems off. They've proven they're good at exactly one task. Maybe they're good at a lot of things, but their sport doesn't require them to be.

Can you expand on this a bit? I get your point about Bolt, he runs straight ahead as fast as he can. Saying golf requires one task seems extremely odd to me, but I'm not sure if you play/watch so can understand if thats the case.

Leather · Jan 24, 2018

I feel like team sports is a different category than individual sports. Playing with teammates and all that entails (teamwork, motivation, leadership, malleability, etc...) just makes it a completely different thing. Likewise, being a solo athlete and having to figure out how to last and succeed despite growing older, all on your own, is something else entirely.

drbretto · Jan 24, 2018

brandonchristensen said:
My gut says

Gretzky
Jordan
Ruth (this is tough)
Brady

I was thinking about this yesterday, and this is the same list I came up with. It's boring, but it's not supposed to be a list of people that you'd be surprised to see up here.

This, to me, is about who are the symbols for each sport. Mystique means as much as athleticism. If you asked any Joe Blow non sports fan who is the greatest of all time at each sport, this is what most people would tell you.

Marciano490 · Jan 24, 2018

Papelbon's Poutine said:
Can you expand on this a bit? I get your point about Bolt, he runs straight ahead as fast as he can. Saying golf requires one task seems extremely odd to me, but I'm not sure if you play/watch so can understand if thats the case.

Besides hand-eye coordination, which tenets of athleticism do playing golf implicate? Perhaps flexibility, but I'm not sure I'd link flexibility to athleticism. I'm not trying to slag golf, what athletic skills required to be a great golfer would carry over to any other athletic endeavor. If the sport were more popular in our country, I'd think table tennis players display more athleticism than golfers.

SumnerH · Jan 24, 2018

brandonchristensen said:
My gut says

Gretzky
Jordan
Ruth (this is tough)
Brady

To me, a Mount Rushmore has to take into account overall fame/sports ambassadorship/cultural impact as well as just dominance of your sport. I'd go with:

Ali
Jordan
Ruth
Pele

SoxJox · Jan 24, 2018

I'm not sure about Mount Sportsmore, but if you're going to include a list as long as the one you've provided (not knocking), I'd include Ashton Easton, who is only the 3rd athlete to defend an Olympic Decathlon Gold, and currently holds the record for point total at 9,045. Considering the max total is 10,000, that's beyond remarkable.

But, for my 4:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Phelps
Wayne Gretzky
Cy Young

Ale Xander · Jan 24, 2018

Jackie Robinson - Lincoln (integrated the country/field)
Thorpe - Washington (the first great athlete)
Jordan - Jefferson (went away and came back, built the modern league, talked a lot)
Brady - Teddy R (spoke softly/smartly, and carried a big stick. The one of the four that dumb people think doesn't belong)

Marciano490 · Jan 24, 2018

BaseballJones said:
Roy Jones seems like he'd be on that short list. Mayweather too?

By the way, has there ever been a worse screw job than Jones not winning the gold in Seoul?

I wouldn't put Mayweather there. He was too careful with who he fought. I also had him losing to de la Hoya and losing to Maidana.

snowmanny · Jan 24, 2018

brandonchristensen said:
My gut says

Gretzky
Jordan
Ruth (this is tough)
Brady

You could do something like that for American team sports and something like

Nicklaus
Williams*
Phelps
Owens/Ali/Not Secretariat

For American individual sports.

But list A>>>list B so maybe just your list

*Venus of course

Papelbon's Poutine · Jan 24, 2018

Marciano490 said:
Besides hand-eye coordination, which tenets of athleticism do playing golf implicate? Perhaps flexibility, but I'm not sure I'd link flexibility to athleticism. I'm not trying to slag golf, what athletic skills required to be a great golfer would carry over to any other athletic endeavor. If the sport were more popular in our country, I'd think table tennis players display more athleticism than golfers.

I didn’t think you were slagging golf, I just think most people that don’t play or follow it realize how much these guys put into an average tournament or how physically fit they are these days if they want to compete. Dustin Johnson is generally considered an athletic freak and we’re far past the days of a 300 pound Craig Stadler being at the top of the game. His son burned out for exactly that reason.

Specific skills, beyond hand eye coordination, it’s just as hard for a golfer to hit a delicate chip/pitch shit as it is for a qb to lob a pass; it’s takes pretty amazing muscle control. Endurance is completely forgotten - six days a week, they hit a couple hundred shots to warm up, then walk 7 or 8 miles while hitting another 70 shots and their practice swings and then they wrap their day up by hitting the range for another couple hundred more shots.

I guess if we are talking pure raw athleticism, sure, exclude them, but that’s not really what we are talking about. There have been far better pure athletes than Gretzky, but we factor him in because of his vision, his creativity and his mind tying that all together with his physical skill. If we are talking pure raw athleticism, the list of guys to be considered would be longer than the Bible and the debate would be kinda stupid, because I could probably find a dozen guys a year at the nfl combine that have better measurables than Jordan did and they washed out of the league in two seasons. If Babe Ruth is in the discussion, golfers are, because quite frankly, all he really had going for him was hand eye coordination too, wasn’t it?

fenwaypaul · Jan 24, 2018

I'd put Orr up there before Gretzky. Also, Don Bradman belongs on the short list.

Marciano490 · Jan 24, 2018

Papelbon's Poutine said:
I didn’t think you were slagging golf, I just think most people that don’t play or follow it realize how much these guys put into an average tournament or how physically fit they are these days if they want to compete. Dustin Johnson is generally considered an athletic freak and we’re far past the days of a 300 pound Craig Stadler being at the top of the game. His son burned out for exactly that reason.

Specific skills, beyond hand eye coordination, it’s just as hard for a golfer to hit a delicate chip/pitch shit as it is for a qb to lob a pass; it’s takes pretty amazing muscle control. Endurance is completely forgotten - six days a week, they hit a couple hundred shots to warm up, then walk 7 or 8 miles while hitting another 70 shots and their practice swings and then they wrap their day up by hitting the range for another couple hundred more shots.

I guess if we are talking pure raw athleticism, sure, exclude them, but that’s not really what we are talking about. There have been far better pure athletes than Gretzky, but we factor him in because of his vision, his creativity and his mind tying that all together with his physical skill. If we are talking pure raw athleticism, the list of guys to be considered would be longer than the Bible and the debate would be kinda stupid, because I could probably find a dozen guys a year at the nfl combine that have better measurables than Jordan did and they washed out of the league in two seasons. If Babe Ruth is in the discussion, golfers are, because quite frankly, all he really had going for him was hand eye coordination too, wasn’t it?

We might be missing each other a bit. We're talking about the greatest athletes of all time. I'm not saying it doesn't take any athletic skill to be a great golfer; I'm saying the delta between the athletic skill required to be a great golfer and that required to be a great QB or RB or pitcher or outfielder is so large I'd have a very, very, very hard time putting any golfer on a list of greatest athletes.

I also acknowledge that athleticism entails more than just strength, speed and agility. However, come on, hitting a chip shot is the same as lobbing a pass at game speed while avoiding a pass rush and moving in the pocket? I don't think anyone will back you up on that.

Keeping it even simpler, how many great athletes are scratch golfers despite coming to the game later in life. How many golfers could play another sport professionally?

bankshot1 · Jan 24, 2018

Good luck in coming up with the 4 greatest athletes in the US to stick on a rock,

But, in keeping with Mt. Rushmore what 4 sporting figures best exemplify sports in the US?

First off, hockey, and soccer don't exemplify the US, so those guys are out.

Either do golf (UK/Scottish) or tennis,or any Olympic event (too global)

Baseball? Outside of SoSH, nobody under 55 cares about baseball.

So that leaves football, basketball, Bowling, NASCAR, horse racing, and WWE wrestling as truly representative of American sport.

I'd go with Richard Petty, Earl Anthony, RicFlair and Secretariat.

brandonchristensen · Jan 24, 2018

I guess my thinking is putting them in the major 4 American Sports (Rushmore is American afterall).

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat · Jan 24, 2018

Marciano490 said:
Keeping it even simpler, how many great athletes are scratch golfers despite coming to the game later in life. How many golfers could play another sport professionally?

Great athletes who are scratch golfers can't and don't play golf professionally. Most of them can't even qualify for the U.S. Open when they try. A middle of the road PGA tour golfer is a world better than a typical scratch golfer. The really good PGA golfers are a universe better.

Fred not Lynn · Jan 24, 2018

snowmanny said:
Phelps

Q: How many Gold Medals did Michael Phelps win at his best Olympics?

A: Eight

Q: How many Gold Medals did Eric Heiden win at his best Olympics?

A: All of them...

Point Heiden.

Light-Tower-Power · Jan 24, 2018

The chasm between a scratch golfer and a professional golfer is massive. I understand that this question generally leans toward physical strength and athleticism but professional golfers are possibly the most mentally strong athletes in the world.

Captaincoop · Jan 24, 2018

Three are easy for me - limiting this to American athletes since I have no idea about soccer or cricket or whatever:

Thorpe
Ruth
Jordan

After that, you could make a good argument for at least a dozen for the fourth spot.

Marciano490 · Jan 24, 2018

Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat said:
Great athletes who are scratch golfers can't and don't play golf professionally. Most of them can't even qualify for the U.S. Open when they try. A middle of the road PGA tour golfer is a world better than a typical scratch golfer. The really good PGA golfers are a universe better.

Right, but I'm talking about people who started playing when they're 25+ and only get out in the offseason. If they were able to make the tour based off that it'd mean they're the greatest natural golfers of all time.

Light-Tower-Power said:
The chasm between a scratch golfer and a professional golfer is massive. I understand that this question generally leans toward physical strength and athleticism but professional golfers are possibly the most mentally strong athletes in the world.

Everyone thinks that about their sport.

It's mentally tough to sink a birdie put to win a major on the 18th.

It's mentally tough to pitch or hit in front of 50,000 screaming fans in the bottom of the ninth.

It's mentally tough to throw a pass 50 yards downfield in the Super Bowl to a receiver in double coverage.

It's mentally tough to go to bed every night for a week knowing you're going to stand in an enclosed space with a guy who will try and succeed in punching you in the face repeatedly and it's going to be very, very painful and oh your will is shot from dropping 20 pounds in 10 days.

You can rank those if you want.

Hoodie Sleeves · Jan 24, 2018

Light-Tower-Power said:
but professional golfers are possibly the most mentally strong athletes in the world.

Explain this to me.

Hitting a golf shot is difficult - sure - you have to on-the-fly calculate wind, spin, and a whole bunch of other things.

But so does a quarterback - except when he does it all the pieces are moving, and 3-6 guys are trying to kill him.

Papelbon's Poutine · Jan 24, 2018

Marciano490 said:
We might be missing each other a bit. We're talking about the greatest athletes of all time. I'm not saying it doesn't take any athletic skill to be a great golfer; I'm saying the delta between the athletic skill required to be a great golfer and that required to be a great QB or RB or pitcher or outfielder is so large I'd have a very, very, very hard time putting any golfer on a list of greatest athletes.

I also acknowledge that athleticism entails more than just strength, speed and agility. However, come on, hitting a chip shot is the same as lobbing a pass at game speed while avoiding a pass rush and moving in the pocket? I don't think anyone will back you up on that.

Keeping it even simpler, how many great athletes are scratch golfers despite coming to the game later in life. How many golfers could play another sport professionally?

Not to belabor the point but as others have noted, the difference between levels of golfers is not linear, it’s exponential. Going from a -15 handicap to a -10 isn’t all that particularly hard. Going from a -3 to scratch, or from scratch to a +7 like a top pro, is insanely difficult.

And yes, hitting a delicate lob from a tight lie at Pinehurst onto a turtle back green in front of thousands to win the Open is as mentally and physical challenging as throwing a touch pass. It takes probably far more muscle control. No, there’s not a pass rush, but you’re also there alone and there’s far less room for error. I’m not equating them 100-100 but it’s also not a comp that warrants a guffaw.

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat · Jan 24, 2018

Hoodie Sleeves said:
Explain this to me.

Hitting a golf shot is difficult - sure - you have to on-the-fly calculate wind, spin, and a whole bunch of other things.

But so does a quarterback - except when he does it all the pieces are moving, and 3-6 guys are trying to kill him.

A quarterback also has receivers who can bail him out if he throws a bad pass. He can also be incomplete on nearly half of his attempts and still be successful. A golfer gets gets bailed out by no one, and every shot counts.

Marciano490 · Jan 24, 2018

Papelbon's Poutine said:
Not to belabor the point but as others have noted, the difference between levels of golfers is not linear, it’s exponential. Going from a -15 handicap to a -10 isn’t all that particularly hard. Going from a -3 to scratch, or from scratch to a +7 like a top pro, is insanely difficult.

And yes, hitting a delicate lob from a tight lie at Pinehurst onto a turtle back green in front of thousands to win the Open is as mentally and physical challenging as throwing a touch pass. It takes probably far more muscle control. No, there’s not a pass rush, but you’re also there alone and there’s far less room for error. I’m not equating them 100-100 but it’s also not a comp that warrants a guffaw.

Maybe this is a matter of opinion, but I think you're empirically wrong about the lob vs touch pass. Let's leave aside mental toughness, because some people thrive on the concentration and some thrive on the noise and I don't think it's possible to consider whether it' requires more mental strength to perform alone in silence or in front of 80,000 screaming people.

I'll give you muscle/bodily control, I'll give you flexibility, I'll give you some measure of strength and endurance to hit that lob, but the QB is relying on those things, plus agility, speed, peripheral vision, reflexes quick-as-hell mental processing.

I mean, hell, 50 year olds still hit that lob. Put a 50 year old in at QB for a play, and see what he pulls off. It's not close. I'm not guffawing, but it's not close.

Papelbon's Poutine · Jan 24, 2018

Marciano490 said:
Maybe this is a matter of opinion, but I think you're empirically wrong about the lob vs touch pass. Let's leave aside mental toughness, because some people thrive on the concentration and some thrive on the noise and I don't think it's possible to consider whether it' requires more mental strength to perform alone in silence or in front of 80,000 screaming people.

I'll give you muscle/bodily control, I'll give you flexibility, I'll give you some measure of strength and endurance to hit that lob, but the QB is relying on those things, plus agility, speed, peripheral vision, reflexes quick-as-hell mental processing.

I mean, hell, 50 year olds still hit that lob. Put a 50 year old in at QB for a play, and see what he pulls off. It's not close. I'm not guffawing, but it's not close.

BMHH makes my case for me in part - qb still needs teammates to succeed and also can rely on them to not fail - but again, I don’t think you realize how hard that shot is to make. You being rattled by thousands of fans screaming is another guys being rattled by thousands of fans watching in complete silence and being the sole source of attention. The margin for error is much, much smaller. Hitting the wrong spot by a foot makes a hell of a lot more difference on a green that’s running a 12-13 on a stimpmeter than it does with a guy on the other end that can reach out or make a play to catch it. If he misses that pass a little, he likely has another play. The golfer is likely just cost himself two strokes in a competition decided by usually not much more than that. If you look at Tiger and don’t see an athlete in every sense of the word - purely because it’s not a contact sport - I’m not sure we are able to come to any kind of settlement.

Saints Rest · Jan 24, 2018

Getting back to Mt Rushmore, I feel like we’ve had this debate about the Red Sox (I seem to recall it landed on Ted, Yaz, Pedro, Ortiz). But did we ever try the other three major Boston/New England teams?
For Pats: I would go Brady, Hannah, Tippett, but the 4th is tough. Maybe Gronk? Vinatieri? Although it should probably be Belichick.
For the Celtics: Russell, Cousy, Havlicek, Bird? Does Pierce beat the Cooz?
For the Bruins: Orr, Bourque. Espo? Shore?

Light-Tower-Power · Jan 24, 2018

It's not just making a birdie on 18 to win a major, it's having to put forth maximum effort and concentration on every shot before that birdie putt for four days to get to that point. And if they hit a bad shot they can't dwell on it because stringing a few bad holes together at the wrong time is sometimes the end of contention. And they are doing it week in and week out.

Ale Xander · Jan 24, 2018

Saints Rest said:
Getting back to Mt Rushmore, I feel like we’ve had this debate about the Red Sox (I seem to recall it landed on Ted, Yaz, Pedro, Ortiz). But did we ever try the other three major Boston/New England teams?
For Pats: I would go Brady, Hannah, Tippett, but the 4th is tough. Maybe Gronk? Vinatieri? Although it should probably be Belichick.
For the Celtics: Russell, Cousy, Havlicek, Bird? Does Pierce beat the Cooz?
For the Bruins: Orr, Bourque. Espo? Shore?

If Belichick is in, Kraft should be in. Players only I'd probably put Bruschi in as the 4th.
Bergeron has to be in
Pierce over Cousy I agree

Mt Rushmore is multigenerational

Marciano490 · Jan 24, 2018

Papelbon's Poutine said:
BMHH makes my case for me in part - qb still needs teammates to succeed and also can rely on them to not fail - but again, I don’t think you realize how hard that shot is to make. You being rattled by thousands of fans screaming is another guys being rattled by thousands of fans watching in complete silence and being the sole source of attention. The margin for error is much, much smaller. Hitting the wrong spot by a foot makes a hell of a lot more difference on a green that’s running a 12-13 on a stimpmeter than it does with a guy on the other end that can reach out or make a play to catch it. If he misses that pass a little, he likely has another play. The golfer is likely just cost himself two strokes in a competition decided by usually not much more than that. If you look at Tiger and don’t see an athlete in every sense of the word - purely because it’s not a contact sport - I’m not sure we are able to come to any kind of settlement.

It has nothing to do with whether it's a contact sport or not. I realize it requires a ton of coordination and concentration. I'm just saying in the absence of most other athletic necessities, how much does that override the concentration and coordination required to hit a 98 mph fast ball in a sport that also requires you to run and jump and start and stop and catch and throw?

The idea that something requires more athleticism because it is or isn't a team sport is an arbitrary condition.

Let's look at it this way, if a guy had never invented golf, would a bunch of golfers be considered good athletes? If a guy had never invented football, would a bunch of guys who could run and catch and move like football players be considered good athletes? Leaving aside the Tigers and the Stadlers, what percentage do you think a guy like Mickelson is in terms of speed, strength, endurance, explosiveness, agility?

He's got one very specific set of skills, some of which require a ton of athleticism, but neither he nor anyone else is so good at them that they can compare with an Ali or a Thorpe or a Jackson or a Deion. This seems absurd to even have to say.

Papelbon's Poutine · Jan 24, 2018

Well, that’s kind of the point I was making earlier. If you’re reducing it to raw athleticism - speed, strength, endurance, explosiveness, agility - then it’s kind of a useless debate to have, because there’s been thousands of athletes that flamed out that would rank higher in those lists than those we are debating. Be it because of lack of mental fortitude, injury, coaching, shitty team, etc.

I can pretty confidently guarantee there’s been thousands of guys that would rate higher on those scales than someone even like Jordan or Pele and of course Brady or Ruth. There’s a mental, success and execution level necessary to be even considered.

If you want to reduce it to those criteria, sure, but then you’re kind of limiting it to the Olympics, imo, and then we are back to your singular skill argument.

Prince Fielder could hit a 98 MPH fastball. Was he athletic? Bartolo Colon can throw one, is he? The whole thing is arbitrary, that’s the fun of the debate; but discounting a golfer because he doesn’t have to do stuff quickly or under immediate threat of danger seems arbitrary as well. If these sports weren’t invented would anyone care about how athletic someone is? Would the word even really exist?

As to the Tiger comment, he’s not even an outlier now. The entire tour is filled with legit athletes, under your definition. DJ is widely known for being a freak. And endurance is absolutely huge. If Pele could only run for twenty minutes, would he be who he was? If Phelps couldn’t handle a 1500m freestyle, would he be talked about?

Kliq · Jan 24, 2018

To me, it has to be a combination of dominance in your sport and cultural relevance. Ultimately athletics matter because the very best of them impact our culture and also are a reflection of modern society. In addition, I’m limiting this to sports that are extremely popular or once were extremely popular in American culture. Since this is a debate about our culture, I think it’s fair to consider athletes only for their impact on American culture. If you did this in India, everyone would list Sachin Tendulker and if you did this in Japan, everyone would list Rikidozan and I’m pretty sure 99 percent of Americans don’t know who either of those people are.

Fortunately, three people I think easily qualify as being one of it not the best ever to do it in their sport, and are also the must culturally relevant athletes in American sports, even today.

Ruth

Jordan

Ali

Everyone agrees that those three guys are the best in their sport, or if not they are in the top five or whatever. They would also all probably crack a list of the 100 Most Influential Americans.

The fourth spot is open to debate; Gretzky is the best hockey player ever and a majority of Americans have probably heard of him. However, could they tell you what team he played for? What era he was from? Acknowledgement is not the same as relevance, and I don’t think Gretzky quite meets that standard in America.

The football players are interesting because football is the most popular sport in the United States, but since it doesn’t prioritize the individual as much as basketball, baseball or boxing it is hard for me to find a cultural equal in football to Ruth/Ali/Jordan. As great as Brady is, I can’t say he’s had the same cultural impact as the other three; probably because he doesn’t have their ridiculous flair for self-promotion. The same can be said for Rice.

Jackie Robinson is maybe the most culturally significant athlete in American history, but his cultural significance is almost too big, so it works against him, if that makes sense. Jackie was a great ball player; but ask most non-baseball fans about his career and all they likely know is that he played for the Dodgers and broke the color barrier. He doesn’t have Ruth calling his shot, the Thrilla in Manila, Jordan pushing off Russell. I’m not so sure the general public knows much about him as a player; most non-sports fans might not be able to tell you what position he played.

I think the answer may be Tiger. He’s probably the best golfer ever even if he didn’t have Nicklaus’ longevity and is easily the most famous and culturally changed golf for the better. In 50 years I don’t know if he’ll be as famous as the other three but I think he’s as good of a candidate as anyone else.

Marciano490 · Jan 24, 2018

Papelbon's Poutine said:
Well, that’s kind of the point I was making earlier. If you’re reducing it to raw athleticism - speed, strength, endurance, explosiveness, agility - then it’s kind of a useless debate to have, because there’s been thousands of athletes that flamed out that would rank higher in those lists than those we are debating. Be it because of lack of mental fortitude, injury, coaching, shitty team, etc.

I can pretty confidently guarantee there’s been thousands of guys that would rate higher on those scales than someone even like Jordan or Pele and of course Brady or Ruth. There’s a mental, success and execution level necessary to be even considered.

If you want to reduce it to those criteria, sure, but then you’re kind of limiting it to the Olympics, imo, and then we are back to your singular skill argument.

Prince Fielder could hit a 98 MPH fastball. Was he athletic? Bartolo Colon can throw one, is he? The whole thing is arbitrary, that’s the fun of the debate; but discounting a golfer because he doesn’t have to do stuff quickly or under immediate threat of danger seems arbitrary as well. If these sports weren’t invented would anyone care about how athletic someone is? Would the word even really exist?

As to the Tiger comment, he’s not even an outlier now. The entire tour is filled with legit athletes, under your definition. DJ is widely known for being a freak. And endurance is absolutely huge. If Pele could only run for twenty minutes, would he be who he was? If Phelps couldn’t handle a 1500m freestyle, would he be talked about?

I'm not. I'm combining those with the other things you're citing that golfers have. We're talking about the best athletes ever, not the ones who flamed out. And, again, these guys are displaying endurance too. They're going 9 innings. They're going 12 rounds or 4 quarters.

Again, I think we're having a different debate. I'm not saying all baseball players are better athletes than all professional athletes. I'll give you that Tiger is a better athlete than Prince Fielder. But, we're talking about greatest athletes ever, incorporating everything across the athletic spectrum.

Golfers are good athletes, no doubt. Golf requires athleticism. No doubt.

Tell me with a straight face that Nicklaus, Woods or Palmer are as good an athlete as Deion, Ali or Bo Jackson

Ed Hillel · Jan 24, 2018

Brady
Jordan
Federer
Phelps

This is getting more difficult as time goes by, because athletes are generally playing longer and getting more exposure. It’s also insanely difficult to narrow it down to four, and there are a probably 5-10 people at least I wouldn’t argue with. It might be easier to have two lists, one from the major team sports and another from individual sports.

Papelbon's Poutine · Jan 24, 2018

I think most people worth asking could tell you who Gretzky’s primary teams were and when he was around. Anyone who doesn’t know he was the greatest Florida Panther ever isn’t worth having the debate with.

dcmissle · Jan 24, 2018

Great thread.

Three “what ifs”:

1 and 2. Mickey Mantle and Bobby Orr don’t shred their knees. Mantle also did not take care of himself because no man in his family lasted beyond his 50s, but let’s assume he did. Frank Robinson once remarked that God created a perfect body for baseball and it belonged to Mickey Mantle.

3. Ted Williams does not lose 5 prime years to military service in WWI and Korea. Aaron becomes a footnote to Williams. (Bob Feller and Joe DiMaggio have similar argument points.

Postscript. As does Ali who lost three and a half prime years out of principle. A pity.

Marciano490 · Jan 24, 2018

dcmissle said:
Great thread.

Three “what ifs”:

1 and 2. Mickey Mantle and Bobby Orr don’t shred their knees. Mantle also did not take care of himself because no man in his family lasted beyond his 50s, but let’s assume he did. Frank Robinson once remarked that God created a perfect body for baseball and it belonged to Mickey Mantle.

3. Ted Williams does not lose 5 prime years to military service in WWI and Korea. Aaron becomes a footnote to Williams. (Bob Feller and Joe DiMaggio have similar argument points.

Postscript. As does Ali who lost three and a half prime years out of principle. A pity.

Ali's tougher here. The argument assumes Joe Frazier doesn't beat him without the time off if they'd met earlier.

snowmanny · Jan 24, 2018

I think there's an argument that the actual Boston Mt Rushmore is now Auerbach, Russell, Belichick, Brady.
I mean you can throw in Williams and Orr and delete the coach/GMs who were the most dominant forces in their sport for 30 and 17 years respectively of course.

The ESPN top 10 of the 20th century was Jordan, Ruth, Ali, Brown, Gretzky, Owens, Thorpe, Mays, Nicklaus, Didrickson.

Brady and Williams should be in the top 10 for sure now, but it's ESPN so I'm guessing LeBron would be about seventh.

snowmanny · Jan 24, 2018

BaseballJones said:
On the golf front, I'll just say that most people who don't think golf requires an INSANE amount of athletic ability probably has never tried to play the game with any degree of seriousness. It requires tremendous stamina, incredible mental toughness, precision and ability to repeat swing mechanics, ability to read terrain more than any other sport, the pressure of being alone out there, every shot counts, over four days, week in, week out, where you get fatigued and it's incredibly easy to have your swing be off by just *thismuch* - which is more than enough to lose you the tournament with one bad shot.

Golf at the highest level is an incredible athletic endeavor. Not the traditional athletic abilities of speed, strength, and jumping ability, but it's incredibly hard nonetheless.

Every sport has its unique aspects of athleticism - I mean, going 12 rounds (used to be 15) while getting punched nonstop and throwing 500 punches yourself seems like an incredible athletic feat.

Well the other thing is that we are rating spectator sports. That's what the list really is, the most dominant athletes in American spectator sports. It's not some lab analysis of jumping and strength and timing and so forth, and it's not decathletes or triathletes or something. And golf is a well-established spectator sport that pre-dates basketball and hockey and pro football as a major sport in this country and at times has had athletes that were as famous and as revered as any athletes in the country, from Bobby Jones to Arnold Palmer to Tiger Woods. I mean, there's Golf, Tennis, Boxing, the four pro leagues and the Olympics. To me the Olympic athletes are the weakest link because it's so intermittent and therefore not prone to sustained widely witnessed excellence, but that doesn't mean they aren't just as (or more) "athletic." I'd argue that it's also hard to put a recent boxer on the list because boxing is so much less relevant now, even though I presume they are just as good athletes as they ever were. I mean I watch a ton of sports, and saw a ton of boxing in my youth, but I don't think I've ever seen Floyd Mayweather live on TV except in the Olympics.

E5 Yaz · Jan 24, 2018

So ... we're saying it's impossible — given the differences between sports and the merits of each sport athletically — that it's impossible to determine a Mount Rushmore that you can carve in stone

Marciano490 · Jan 24, 2018

E5 Yaz said:
So ... we're saying it's impossible — given the differences between sports and the merits of each sport athletically — that it's impossible to determine a Mount Rushmore that you can carve in stone

No. This is silly. Golf requires athleticism. No doubt.

Gilmore’s deflection and Amendola’s TD catch both required more athletic ability than anything that has ever happened on a golf course.

No doubt.

Papelbon's Poutine · Jan 24, 2018

Marciano490 said:
No. This is silly. Golf requires athleticism. No doubt.

Gilmore’s deflection and Amendola’s TD catch both required more athletic ability than anything that has ever happened on a golf course.

No doubt.

Which again goes back to my question of if we are talking about pure raw athleticism? Which I don't think is the spirit of the debate or else it's a kind of impossible one to have. There have been far better pure athletes than Bo - we recognize him because of the success he had, while we may not have ever even noticed the other ones because they flamed out. Once you bring success or recognition into the equation, the raw athleticism loses weight. I'd fully agree the play Gilmore made was more athletic than anything that happens on a golf course. I'd also say it's more athletic than anything the Tom Brady has ever done. You going with Gilmore in that debate for the better "athlete"? If the answer is yes, I think you're missing the spirit of the debate. Or I am. I dunno, I lost track...

SMU_Sox · Jan 24, 2018

Takeru Kobayashi is an athlete if a golfer is an athlete. Jaws stronger than a bull dog. A stomach that can stretch for miles. There is strategy in competitive eating too. He can sit too baby, boy can he sit. Is there anything more American than gluttony? Sitting down and stuffing our fat fucking faces IS the national past-time and has been since 1776 with Franklin.

Papelbon's Poutine · Jan 24, 2018

SMU_Sox said:
Takeru Kobayashi is an athlete if a golfer is an athlete. Jaws stronger than a bull dog. A stomach that can stretch for miles. There is strategy in competitive eating too. He can sit too baby, boy can he sit. Is there anything more American than gluttony? Sitting down and stuffing our fat fucking faces IS the national past-time and has been since 1776 with Franklin.

Yeah, that guy is totally on par with a hot dog eater. Not athletic at all.

The Mount Rushmore of....Athletes?

ivanvamp

Urological Expert

ivanvamp

Urological Expert

Loves Aaron Judge

Homeland Security

given himself a skunk spot

Member

Urological Expert

Malt Liquor Picker

Member

ivanvamp

Hamilton

Urological Expert

Member

Homeland Security

Well-Known Member

Urological Expert

Member

Loves Aaron Judge

has big, douchey shoulders

Dick Button Jr.

ask me about My Pillow

Member

Urological Expert

Member

Homeland Security

has big, douchey shoulders

Urological Expert

Homeland Security

Well-Known Member

ask me about My Pillow

Hamilton

Urological Expert

Homeland Security

Member

Urological Expert

Wants to be startin somethin

Homeland Security

Deflatigator

Urological Expert

Member

ivanvamp

Member

ivanvamp

polka king

Urological Expert

Homeland Security

queer eye for the next pats guy

Homeland Security