The Mount Rushmore of....Athletes?

Marciano490

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Which again goes back to my question of if we are talking about pure raw athleticism? Which I don't think is the spirit of the debate or else it's a kind of impossible one to have. There have been far better pure athletes than Bo - we recognize him because of the success he had, while we may not have ever even noticed the other ones because they flamed out. Once you bring success or recognition into the equation, the raw athleticism loses weight. I'd fully agree the play Gilmore made was more athletic than anything that happens on a golf course. I'd also say it's more athletic than anything the Tom Brady has ever done. You going with Gilmore in that debate for the better "athlete"? If the answer is yes, I think you're missing the spirit of the debate. Or I am. I dunno, I lost track...
No, because I think we agree that athleticism should go beyond just speed, strength, endurance, reflex and agility. Tom Brady’s ability to run around, avoid defenders, thread the needle then run up to the LOS and diagnose a defense with his pulse at 160 incorporates a ton of athletic abilities.

And so does making that lob. I don’t dispute that. And there may be great golfers who are better athletes than great football or basketball players. My point I guess is how can you show that based on what they’ve done on the field.

That’s why I’ll take the guy who’s running and avoiding and interacting over the guy standing still over a non-moving ball.

Damn, I thought saying Bolt didn’t belong would be more controversial. Maybe on Sons of Charlie Francis?
 

djbayko

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Tell me with a straight face that Nicklaus, Woods or Palmer are as good an athlete as Deion, Ali or Bo Jackson
I think this sentence best illustrates how you are approaching this question differently than some of the others here (including myself). The way I look at it is - similar to how we adjust for era when comparing 2 baseball players - in this exercise we must adjust for sport. If you don't agree that golf is a major sport, then we are definitely at an impasse. However, if we agree that it is a major sport, worthy of discussion, then we must measure its athletes relative to itself when it comes to career accomplishments, performance, and athletic traits. Put it this way: in an alternate universe where curling were more popular - to the point where one of its ice jockeys could become a global icon - then I would absolutely give its candidate(s) a hard look.
 
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Ralphwiggum

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Of course golfers are not on the same plane as most football players as pure athletes, but if we can agree that Brandon Spikes is a better “athlete” than Tiger Woods, then this is a pretty boring conversation. Tiger Woods is a transcendent athlete/sports figure/pick your descriptor. Brandon Spikes is a dime a dozen middle linebacker who nobody considers a great football player.

To me for this to be an interesting conversation “athlete” has to be taken as a measure of an athlete being transcendently good at playing their particular sport, to the point where the difference between how well they played, and how well another “great” player played is measurable. Larry Bird was a spectacularly great basketball player but pretty much nobody says he was better than Jordan. Ruth is another, and I think you can make a case for Serena Williams. After that it gets tough for me if you are looking for a Mt. Rushmore meaning a small handful of people.

Edit: To add, as much as I love Tom Brady, he’s in this conversation because the combination of his athletic talents happens to make him very good at doing a specific thing in the quirky and arbitrary game of football at a position that is overly important compared to other positions. In an alternate universe where football is not a sport and all professional football players are re-assigned to another sport, Brady is probably a mediocre catcher who has a cup of coffee in the majors maybe.
 
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Marciano490

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Maybe I’m being unclear still. My conception of athleticism is broad enough to rank Brady as a better athlete than someone like Tyreke Hill who is clearly a better traditional athlete.

Also, we’re talking about the 4 best athletes ever. If you wanna throw Woods on a top 50 list, that’s cool. The top 4 athletes of all time, to me, has to be someone who has showcased broad based athletic skill. So, yeah, a one sport athlete who only played golf is pretty much de facto disqualified. Maybe that limits the conversation a bit, but if we were talking best performer ever I’ll take MJ over Dylan even if Dylan is arguably the better, more influential musician. Now, maybe Dylan can moonwalk while singing Tangled Up In Blue, but until he does he wouldn’t get the benefit of the doubt.
 

dcmissle

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I don't see how any list couldn't have Babe Ruth on it. He changed the game of baseball, and, in my opinion, will never be surpassed as the greatest baseball player of all time.

Although maybe his straight line speed wasn't as good as Danny Amendola's.
1. Assuming no arm injury, Ruth likely would have made Cooperstown had he never picked up a bat.

2. His numbers at the plate compared to contemporaries were preposterous.

Once in a century player.

Maybe once a millennium.
 

luckiestman

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I wouldn't put Mayweather there. He was too careful with who he fought. I also had him losing to de la Hoya and losing to Maidana.
I had him in both of those fights but I think I had Castillo in their first fight.

I kind of hated Sugar Ray Leonard but he did some impressive things. Beating Hearns, Hagler, and Duran is really something (I scored Hagler as the winner but Hagler is my favorite boxer so I’m probably biased).
 

Marciano490

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I had him in both of those fights but I think I had Castillo in their first fight.

I kind of hated Sugar Ray Leonard but he did some impressive things. Beating Hearns, Hagler, and Duran is really something (I scored Hagler as the winner but Hagler is my favorite boxer so I’m probably biased).
No Hagler objectively won. And he also beat Hearns and Duran. He was a better boxer than Leonard, who isn’t a top ten guy for me.
 

snowmanny

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Michael Jordan sucked as a baseball player. Pretty much disqualifies him from being more than a one-note athlete.
Well that's why Ainge>Jordan. Although I have a vague recollection of Ainge talking about how he imagined that if Jordan had been raised to be a tennis player he would have been the best tennis player ever.
 

luckiestman

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Well that's why Ainge>Jordan. Although I have a vague recollection of Ainge talking about how he imagined that if Jordan had been raised to be a tennis player he would have been the best tennis player ever.

I’m not sure if you are kidding or not but the discussion alone of Ainge vs Jordan is interesting.

Ainge was a solid NBA player, made the MLB and could have played football at a high level
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Maybe I’m being unclear still. My conception of athleticism is broad enough to rank Brady as a better athlete than someone like Tyreke Hill who is clearly a better traditional athlete.

Also, we’re talking about the 4 best athletes ever. If you wanna throw Woods on a top 50 list, that’s cool. The top 4 athletes of all time, to me, has to be someone who has showcased broad based athletic skill. So, yeah, a one sport athlete who only played golf is pretty much de facto disqualified. Maybe that limits the conversation a bit, but if we were talking best performer ever I’ll take MJ over Dylan even if Dylan is arguably the better, more influential musician. Now, maybe Dylan can moonwalk while singing Tangled Up In Blue, but until he does he wouldn’t get the benefit of the doubt.
I won’t speak for others, but I get your point, I just think it’s not in spirit of the discussion proposed and oddly being far too specific and vague at the same time. You’re mixing criteria. The vast majority of people even nearing the conversation are one sport athletes. The Deions and Bos are pretty unique and that discussion would be, as you say, limited. As someone else said, MJ couldn’t hit a baseball, but who knows if he could have been better had he trained more. Not that I’m throwing Tiger on a short list or arguing he’d be top 4, I’m saying eliminating him because he plays golf seems short sighted to me. Look at the man, he revolutionized being physically dominant in the sport and transformed how golfers trained, to the point it ruined a likely HoFer’s career in David Duval because he tried to keep up. He won at the highest peak on a broken knee. Golf is about more than hand eye coordination and while you weigh the individual components of boxing - partly because you’re more privy to them as a boxer - you discount them because you don’t know golf at that level. Saying golf is just swinging a club is saying boxing is just throwing a punch and being strong.
 

luckiestman

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I won’t speak for others, but I get your point, I just think it’s not in spirit of the discussion proposed and oddly being far too specific and vague at the same time. You’re mixing criteria. The vast majority of people even nearing the conversation are one sport athletes. The Deions and Bos are pretty unique and that discussion would be, as you say, limited. As someone else said, MJ couldn’t hit a baseball, but who knows if he could have been better had he trained more. Not that I’m throwing Tiger on a short list or arguing he’d be top 4, I’m saying eliminating him because he plays golf seems short sighted to me. Look at the man, he revolutionized being physically dominant in the sport and transformed how golfers trained, to the point it ruined a likely HoFer’s career in David Duval because he tried to keep up. He won at the highest peak on a broken knee. Golf is about more than hand eye coordination and while you weigh the individual components of boxing - partly because you’re more privy to them as a boxer - you discount them because you don’t know golf at that level. Saying golf is just swinging a club is saying boxing is just throwing a punch and being strong.
What are we even saying are athletic skills.

If we put chess on one end and the 100m dash or a raw power lifting event on the other end, a lot of stuff is going to be in the middle. If we are counting anyone that plays a sport anywhere on the spectrum an athlete and then asking who had the greatest impact on the world, I’m sympathetic to guys like Pele, Ali, Ruth, Jordan, Woods

If we are talking about an athlete as someone who could have succeeded across multiple domains at a high level. You have guys like Ainge, Bo, Deion,


If we are talking about guys who dominated their sport the most relative to how others dominated their sport, you have guys like Woods, Bolt, Walter Johnson, Ruth, Phelps, Dan Gable etc.

Like in many internet debates, arguing over the terms of the debate is the real debate.
 

Marciano490

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I’m not saying that at all. But, what caused Tiger’s injuries; I never really followed. We’re they related to the weight training or just genetic flukes?
 

Marciano490

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I like you guys so much more now. And remember Leonard ducked him for years too till Hagler got older.
 

BaseballJones

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I don't blame Leonard from ducking and running for 12 rounds, if he hadn't Hagler would have killed him.

I was pissed with that decision.
It was a bad decision and I think most people knew that. I was far angrier with the Roy Jones Olympic screw job in South Korea. That was as one sided a fight as I have ever seen. I think he got hit about three times.

And didn't Leonard have to move up in class to fight Hagler? I thought Leonard was a welterweight and Hagler was a middleweight. Do I remember that correctly?
 

HurstSoGood

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Leonard fans can spin it however they want . Hagler won that fight and got screwed. I don't ever remember being as upset at the result of a boxing decision as I was a after watching that fight.
 

E5 Yaz

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It was a bad decision and I think most people knew that. I was far angrier with the Roy Jones Olympic screw job in South Korea. That was as one sided a fight as I have ever seen. I think he got hit about three times.
Ehn ... the Jones decision was political travesty and he gained enormously from the controversy

The Hagler screw-job was much more of a personal torment that stuck to his legacy because of the media infatuation with Leonard.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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I’m not saying that at all. But, what caused Tiger’s injuries; I never really followed. We’re they related to the weight training or just genetic flukes?
Maybe both. Maybe in part due to his swing since it was high stress on his left side for a while. Tiger has had so many injuries it's tough to know where to start. There's a decent rundown here:

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/tiger-woods-injury-timeline/story?id=42708936

And the tough to label/diagnose mental wound from that whole Thanksgiving car wreck and subsequent private life unmasking.
 

BaseballJones

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I just think it's a real testimony to Brady that people are mentioning him in the same breath as these all-time great athletes regardless of their sport.
 

E5 Yaz

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I just think it's a real testimony to Brady that people are mentioning him in the same breath as these all-time great athletes regardless of their sport.
I think it's more a reflection of how obsessed national media have become with equating eras of sport and athletes. There's no real thought process put into it, other than to get people thinking you're saying something.

Hell, we went throughFavre being called the greatest ever to Manning being called the greatest ever. Now it's Brady's turn ... probably Rodgers next
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Maybe both. Maybe in part due to his swing since it was high stress on his left side for a while. Tiger has had so many injuries it's tough to know where to start. There's a decent rundown here:

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/tiger-woods-injury-timeline/story?id=42708936

And the tough to label/diagnose mental wound from that whole Thanksgiving car wreck and subsequent private life unmasking.
I think it’d be remiss to leave out the ‘Navy Seal’ endeavors (tho that may be included in the article linked, I’ll admit I didn’t click, I root hard for him but there’s only so much I can read about his injuries). I think it’s clear the injuries started before the car wreck, since that seemingly played a part in it, with him hopped up on meds when it happened.
 

lars10

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I think it's more a reflection of how obsessed national media have become with equating eras of sport and athletes. There's no real thought process put into it, other than to get people thinking you're saying something.

Hell, we went throughFavre being called the greatest ever to Manning being called the greatest ever. Now it's Brady's turn ... probably Rodgers next
But Favre was nowhere close and Manning just had the counting stats.. so neither actually were close to Brady.. Brady does actually have a legit claim.. be it longevity, wins, Super Bowls etc.. his numbers are comparable on a number of levels.

Edit: also please.. who ever called Favre the best ever besides possibly King.
 

MuzzyField

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I love the mention of Eric Heiden, he was the Olympic ice dominator with no need for a miracle at Lake Placid. He and Earl Campbell are in the HOF of thigh muscle development. I was able to chat with Earl at a Pats game when I was a kid and his thighs were bigger than pads, which he didn't wear. He had internal thigh pads.
Jesse Owens is a must. I'm also in on team Serena.
Gretzky is being underrated for his impact beyond his play, which was pretty good. His move to LA created much wealth for the NHL as is opened up the southern cities for expansion and relocation. FUCK YOU, Raleigh and Peter Kapinos! Did/do all of them deserve a franchise, no, but he was the ONE responsible for that growth curve for the league and the expansion fees were a nice revenue boost.
I would like to see more Palmer talk. Without him there is no Golf Channel and the game might still be stuck in the Shell World or Golf era. He paved the cart path for Tiger. Without Palmer, Jack has no shoulders to climb on.
Williams is Babe Ruth, and a war hero who sacrificed prime MLB years for more important work, advantage Ted.
Ali would round it out for me, and as Marciano490 pointed out, a fight with Frazier during his ban would have been epic.
I didn't get to watch Russell, but he is my gold standard. Talk me into Jordan being better.
This is a fun thread!
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I’m not sure if you are kidding or not but the discussion alone of Ainge vs Jordan is interesting.

Ainge was a solid NBA player, made the MLB and could have played football at a high level
I wasn’t aware he played football, but wasn’t his call up to the Blue Jays based on some contract clause requiring it, or am I mixing him up with someone else. And no not Wily Mo Pena.
 

MuzzyField

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Michael Jordan sucked as a baseball player. Pretty much disqualifies him from being more than a one-note athlete.
It was fun having to go cover each game WAITING for him to get a hit. The world depended on Sarasota and was long gone while he was "thudding" his way to 0-for. I'm pretty sure his first MLB spring training hit was a missed call. I think the throw from third beat him.
 

SumnerH

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I wasn’t aware he played football, but wasn’t his call up to the Blue Jays based on some contract clause requiring it, or am I mixing him up with someone else. And no not Wily Mo Pena.
This SI article from near that time isn't definite on the matter but it says “the consensus among major league scouts is that Ainge was rushed to the majors by Toronto” and doesn't mention anything about a contractual requirement. However, he was being paid a lot of money (for the time) out of the gate, so maybe the Jays felt pressure to get MLB production. “To deter NBA clubs from trying to woo Ainge, the Blue Jays signed him to a contract that provided for a $50,000 salary the first year, $75,000 the second and $100,000 the third. He also accepted a $300,000 bonus for agreeing not to play professional basketball.”

He was playing for the Blue Jays (professionally) while he was in college and was still NCAA eligible in basketball.

Orson Scott Card (Ender's Game) apparently wrote a biography of Ainge that was released in 1981.

Didn't his required call up with the Jays open up the window for him to have to go play basketball? How did Red factor into this?
No, his contract with the Jays included a ban on him playing basketball for the duration (which would've been through the 1983 season). He tried to claim that their ownership had verbally released him, but lost in court. The Celtics wound up paying a considerable buyout to Toronto to get him released.
 

luckiestman

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Bob Ryan interviews Ainge on his podcast and it’s good if you are interested at all in Danny’s background.
 

MuzzyField

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This SI article from near that time isn't definite on the matter but it says “the consensus among major league scouts is that Ainge was rushed to the majors by Toronto” and doesn't mention anything about a contractual requirement. However, he was being paid a lot of money (for the time) out of the gate, so maybe the Jays felt pressure to get MLB production. “To deter NBA clubs from trying to woo Ainge, the Blue Jays signed him to a contract that provided for a $50,000 salary the first year, $75,000 the second and $100,000 the third. He also accepted a $300,000 bonus for agreeing not to play professional basketball.”

He was playing for the Blue Jays (professionally) while he was in college and was still NCAA eligible in basketball.

Orson Scott Card (Ender's Game) apparently wrote a biography of Ainge that was released in 1981.



No, his contract with the Jays included a ban on him playing basketball for the duration (which would've been through the 1983 season). He tried to claim that their ownership had verbally released him, but lost in court. The Celtics wound up paying a considerable buyout to Toronto to get him released.
I should have remembered this from my Sunday Globe notes from Bob Ryan! Thanks for clarifying.
 

InstaFace

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Writing without first reading others' lists: Muhammad Ali, Jim Thorpe, Jesse Owens, Pele. Michael Jordan and Babe Ruth as honorable mentions.

This is a combination of fame, athletic achievement, and influence on the future of the sport and the world. A clue to a good answer might be illuminated by the question: "Who are the athletes whose biographies would be the best for a child to read?" As an 8- or 10-year-old, the answer to that for me was Pele, Owens and Ruth. Since my childhood I've come to appreciate the power of the personal stories of Ali and Thorpe and how they shaped not just their sport but the world, and I think I'd give a biography of them to my daughters. Along with those of Serena Williams, Billie Jean King, Mia Hamm, Mary Lou Retton, etc :)
 

Bosox1528

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Phelps
Ruth
Jordan
Brady


Phelps and Ruth are the easy ones. They were so far ahead of anyone. Michael Phelps has 23 Gold medals. The person in 2nd has 9. Michael Phelps broke world records in 7 out of 8 events in Beijing in 2008 and won 8 gold medals. Michael Phelps, 8 years past his prime, in 2016, won 6 gold medals, the 3rd most of anyone ever (behind Mark Spitz and himself)


Babe Ruth was so far above anyone at his time. Before him the record for home runs in a season was what? 15. Then Babe Ruth went and hit 59 home runs in a season. He completely changed the game. Babe Ruth's WAR per game is far beyond what anyone has done. And that's not even including his pitching.

Michael Jordan is Michael Jordan. Undoubtedly the best Basketball player of all time, Michael Jordan has to be on here.

Brady is the toughest one imo. Brady is the best football player ever, but I wouldn't say he totally blew away the competition like Ruth or Phelps did. Peyton Manning, with all his faults, was a serious rival to him. But Brady won. And won. And won.

I think you could also consider Wayne Gretzky instead of Brady, but I'm not big on hockey
 

Ralphwiggum

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I am as big a Tom Brady fan as exists in the world, and I have trouble getting to the point of calling him one of the four best athletes ever. So much of his claim to greatness is how much he’s won, and you just cannot ignore the fact that he’s played his entire career for the greatest coach in modern sports history (maybe greatest coach ever), in a sport in which coaching matters more than almost any other. I think he’s the greatest QB to ever play, but I don’t think his claim to that is indesputable so I can’t get to the point where I put him up there with some of the others mentioned in this thread. I don’t think you can even say with any degree of certainty that Brady is the best football player ever. Jerry Rice played a less important position, but the gap between him and the next best WR to ever play (whoever that is) is way, way, bigger than the gap between Brady and the next best QB.

Football is weird becuase the QB is so important and I think everyone would choose Brady over Rice if they were building a team from scratch, but I don’t think that makes Brady better than the best WR to ever play, or the best MLB or the best OT.
 

Devizier

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Golfing is more akin to the kicker's role on a football team. There's a whole host of difficulty involved, but it's essentially a single skill used repeatedly.