Back to Buchholz

YTF

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You have Buchholz starting anymore games this year? His value to this team right now is extremely limited and his opportunity to show the Sox that they should pick up an option paying him more than he's currently is more limited. He's at best their sixth starter and perhaps has slightly more value than he did a few weeks ago out of the pen.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Clay could dominate and I don't think his option will get picked up
I hope he has a good start today but DD is not picking up his option.
I disagree. If he has a good start and then he continues to pitch well (in the rotation or out of the pen) through the end of the season, I think DD has to think long and hard about picking up the option.

If the arm slot issue was truly the problem and he's addressed it, Buchholz could very well be the most sought after pitcher on the free agent market this winter. Picking up the option could give them a trade chip to work with, and I have to think there would be multiple suitors for a pitcher like Buchholz at that kind of price.

Again, that's if he continues to pitch like he has out of the pen over the last few weeks. If he blows up today or reverts back to the disaster he was in the first half, all bets are off.
 

In my lifetime

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If Clay pitches very well for the rest of the season, his 13.5 M team option could look like a very fair 1 yr deal. I wouldn't be surprised by a sign and trade in a free agent market that doesn't feature much in the way of pitching. Heck look at the Masterson 10.5 mIllion dollar flyer, which the RS deemed worth a shot. Today that is probably at least equivalent to 13.5. But as mentioned this is only a possibility if Clay continues to pitch very well.
 

NDame616

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Clay pitches well today we could probably trade him via waivers in the next few weeks and get something of value back. In all non-tornado games he's pitched pretty well (only given up a run in 1 of those games) and if he shows some hope as a starter today.....

Teams have done crazy stuff at the waiver deadlines in the past.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Clay pitches well today we could probably trade him via waivers in the next few weeks and get something of value back. In all non-tornado games he's pitched pretty well (only given up a run in 1 of those games) and if he shows some hope as a starter today.....

Teams have done crazy stuff at the waiver deadlines in the past.
Out of curiosity, if he's pitching well, what reason would the Red Sox have to trade him?

It would be one thing if they were 10 games out of a playoff spot and just playing out the string, but despite the struggles of late, they're still very much in contention. Seems like the last thing this team should be doing right now is trading away guys who are pitching effectively (even if it is someone as mercurial as Buchholz).
 

SouthernBoSox

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If Clay pitches well, given the state of the bullpen, and the lack of SP depth in the high minors, he's as important to the Red Sox than he is anywhere else.
 

czar

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Clay pitches well today we could probably trade him via waivers in the next few weeks and get something of value back. In all non-tornado games he's pitched pretty well (only given up a run in 1 of those games) and if he shows some hope as a starter today.....

Teams have done crazy stuff at the waiver deadlines in the past.
At this point the only way Buchholz brings anything of value back via a waiver trade is if a team on the cusp of playoff contention desperately needs help at the backend of the rotation or needs to throw crap against a wall in a bullpen. Which... is the Red Sox.

No team out of contention is going to trade for him in the hope of "rehabbing" him over 5 starts (not enough time, odds very low the option is picked up). If a team is locked and loaded in the playoffs, likely they aren't going to view Buchholz as useful given the need for only 3-4 starters in October (and again, low change of long-term value).

The Red Sox probably could have sold him in early July (when Farrell wasn't pitching him) for a B-level prospect if they ate his salary. Now, there's really no reason not to play out the string, particularly with how the bullpen has pitched the last week or two.
 

YTF

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If Clay pitches very well for the rest of the season, his 13.5 M team option could look like a very fair 1 yr deal. I wouldn't be surprised by a sign and trade in a free agent market that doesn't feature much in the way of pitching. Heck look at the Masterson 10.5 mIllion dollar flyer, which the RS deemed worth a shot. Today that is probably at least equivalent to 13.5. But as mentioned this is only a possibility if Clay continues to pitch very well.
13.5 isn't a ton of money for a starting pitcher in today's market and given the coming FA class, it will probably be a bargain for a solid 4or 5. Question is, is there much of an indication that Buchholz is going to be that? The season is quickly slipping away. Barring injury he's not looking at many opportunities to start. Perhaps he gets featured a bit more out of the pen due to the general shit show that they have been displaying lately, but I think he's really got to be near shut down the rest of the way to get that option picked up. As for Masterson, true enough what you say, but he was formally with the Sox. I'm guessing that part of that flyer included familiarity and perhaps the idea that they might be able to help turn him around because of that.
 

Curt S Loew

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This is precisely the reason Buchholz is still here. He sucks. Then pitches well enough where his trade value is better, but they decide he is more valuable here. Then he sucks again.
 

Laser Show

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This is precisely the reason Buchholz is still here. He sucks. Then pitches well enough where his trade value is better, but they decide he is more valuable here. Then he sucks again.
Which is ultimately why I'm ready to move on. Sure he could be exactly what this team needs. But he's a question mark year in year out. They need to stop relying on someone like that.
 

Al Zarilla

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Which is ultimately why I'm ready to move on. Sure he could be exactly what this team needs. But he's a question mark year in year out. They need to stop relying on someone like that.
Maybe he's fixed with the new arm angle. We keep lusting after pitching coaches that might be able to help a pitcher, maybe Bannister actually did.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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If he goes 5-0 with a 1.5 ERA and pitches 5 playoff victories to a World Series win.... I still wouldn't sign him. As he would likely be painfully inconsistent and a tax on the bullpen next season- which we could probably get from putting Owens in the same spot for way cheaper.
Pass.
 

Plympton91

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If Clay pitches well today and Wright's shoulder loosens up so Wright goes back into the rotation and Clay to the pen, I'd consider making Clay the top set up man for the rest of the season. They have as big a problem with the bullpen now as they did in the rotation a month ago.
 

Plympton91

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If he goes 5-0 with a 1.5 ERA and pitches 5 playoff victories to a World Series win.... I still wouldn't sign him. As he would likely be painfully inconsistent and a tax on the bullpen next season- which we could probably get from putting Owens in the same spot for way cheaper.
Pass.
Maybe we could trade him for Darren Bragg.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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If he goes 5-0 with a 1.5 ERA and pitches 5 playoff victories to a World Series win.... I still wouldn't sign him. As he would likely be painfully inconsistent and a tax on the bullpen next season- which we could probably get from putting Owens in the same spot for way cheaper.
Pass.
If he does that you definitely pick up the option because he would be worth something on the trade market.
 

mfried

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If he goes 5-0 with a 1.5 ERA and pitches 5 playoff victories to a World Series win.... I still wouldn't sign him. As he would likely be painfully inconsistent and a tax on the bullpen next season- which we could probably get from putting Owens in the same spot for way cheaper.
Pass.
I have fully broken with 1-pitch (changeup) Owens. Trade him before the man of Clay.
 

FanSinceBoggs

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I presume Buchholz now returns to his role as a one inning relief pitcher and will have the rest of the month to prove he can be effective in that role?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Which is ultimately why I'm ready to move on. Sure he could be exactly what this team needs. But he's a question mark year in year out. They need to stop relying on someone like that.
We are well past the times of relying on Buchholz which was a large part of acquiring a legit 200 inning guy in Miley last year. Nearly all if not all #5 starters throughout baseball are question marks with varying degrees of upside. If you're in contention by mid-season you are looking to upgrade certain areas of the team anyway......is paying Buchholz $13m worth the upside of possibly not having to move a Devers for another Pomeranz-type next July?
 

czar

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I presume Buchholz now returns to his role as a one inning relief pitcher and will have the rest of the month to prove he can be effective in that role?
I think he's already proven he's equally as effective as some of the guys back there.

Yesterday showed one of my concerns with using him as the "de facto" 6th starter. He seemed to labor after ~3 innings -- and given the 60-70 pitch limit, if something were to happen to one of the SP it would likely take him 3-4 starts to get back to a "starter" workload. At that point, was it worth it?

I will say (and did in the game thread), his stuff looked pretty crisp last night (induced a lot of weak contact and a GB rate much more in line with previous seasons), but the command was poor. Would have been nice if he just challenged some of the guys, especially those lower in the lineup, rather than nibbling.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I think he's already proven he's equally as effective as some of the guys back there.

Yesterday showed one of my concerns with using him as the "de facto" 6th starter. He seemed to labor after ~3 innings -- and given the 60-70 pitch limit, if something were to happen to one of the SP it would likely take him 3-4 starts to get back to a "starter" workload. At that point, was it worth it?
We do have a 1-2-3 who can consistently get us into the 8th and 9th innings so his mitigates the need for a 5th starter to give us 7 to a certain degree. As I mentioned earlier how many teams have a reliable 7-inning 5th started? If Buchholz is pressed into duty over Pomeranz or Erod (it gets murkier if he's replacing one of the other 3) getting 4-5 strong innings out of him would be a major win for us.
 

NoXInNixon

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With so few games off, perhaps this is time to consider a, gulp, six man rotation.

I hope that suggestion doesn't get me banned.
 

Byrdbrain

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3 players to be added to Sox tomorrow in Cleveland to replace Wright (DL), Elias (optioned to AAA) and Ramirez (bereavement leave) #RedSox

So it looks like Clay will stay in the rotation for a bit.
The Sox will need to bring up three bodies as well at least for a little bit. They may bring up a couple of RPs with all the games, Hembree and Kelly being the most obvious. They may bring Brentz back as well but he seemed pretty worthless so I'd rather have Hernandez.

Edit:It look like Brentz is one of the people coming up as he was pinch hit for as the DH in the 2nd inning.
Edit2:Henry Owens was scratched from his start tonight so he might be coming up.
 
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E5 Yaz

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Do they have to designate which of the three replaces Hanley on the roster, and that player has to go back down when Hanley returns?
 

Byrdbrain

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From what I could find it is just like adding someone to the DL, except the length is fixed between 3 and 7 days. I haven't seen anything that states it specifically but that would suggest to me that no you don't need to designate in advance who is coming in for that player.

When looking up the answer I found this guys blog who seems to have a good rundown of all MLB roster rules, some of it is Cub specific but most is general.
http://www.thecubreporter.com/book/export/html/3506
 

Coachster

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Do they have to designate which of the three replaces Hanley on the roster, and that player has to go back down when Hanley returns?
I might be off-base here, but I believe Brentz has to replace Hanley or Wright, because he was sent down less than 10 days ago.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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We do have a 1-2-3 who can consistently get us into the 8th and 9th innings so his mitigates the need for a 5th starter to give us 7 to a certain degree. As I mentioned earlier how many teams have a reliable 7-inning 5th started? If Buchholz is pressed into duty over Pomeranz or Erod (it gets murkier if he's replacing one of the other 3) getting 4-5 strong innings out of him would be a major win for us.
Could you elaborate on your definition of 'consistently'? If we have the same one we are apparently watching two different teams.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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If Moncada was healthy, I'd love for him to get a small taste of the majors as Hanley's replacement. Is he in fact still hurting?
Healthy or not, I can't imagine they're going to add Moncada to the 40-man if they have no intention of giving him a lengthy look or a "for good" spot on the big league team (like Benintendi). I expect they'd rather keep him off the 40-man until spring just to have the flexibility of that spot through the winter for free agents or Rule 5 protection purposes.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Could you elaborate on your definition of 'consistently'? If we have the same one we are apparently watching two different teams.
I'm not sure what there is to elaborate. Price leads the AL in IP and we'd have all 3 starters in the Top-10 had Wright not missed his last start. All 3 are eating a ton of innings and projecting 200+ for the year.
 

geoduck no quahog

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Buchholz takes Wright's next start.

Two positions now open (Elias sent down / Hanley Bereavement)

...At least 1 position player on his way. Who's taking the pitching spot? Or do they go back to 12?
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I'm not sure what there is to elaborate. Price leads the AL in IP and we'd have all 3 starters in the Top-10 had Wright not missed his last start. All 3 are eating a ton of innings and projecting 200+ for the year.
Which is nice and certainly helps but it's not consistently pitching into the 8th or 9th inning.

Price has pitched into the 8th or later 6 times in 25 starts.
Wright is 7/22.
Porcello is 3/23 all of which were his last 3 starts.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Which is nice and certainly helps but it's not consistently pitching into the 8th or 9th inning.

Price has pitched into the 8th or later 6 times in 25 starts.
Wright is 7/22.
Porcello is 3/23 all of which were his last 3 starts.
I don't know where you got these numbers but Price has pitched 7+ innings in 14 of his 25 starts, Wright 10, and Porcello 8 with all three of them doing so more consistently as the season has progressed.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Chris Young could be one of the callups. Only 2 AAA games so far, but they will need to make a spot on the 25 for him
With 11 straight days of games including the dreaded day game following a night of travel I'm expecting the shuttle to be very busy over the next two weeks to keep a fresh backend bullpen AAAA inning eater. Then there is the Hanley roster move in 3 days as starting quite a bit of Holt, Hill, and ultimately Young to keep guys as fresh as possible.
 

AB in DC

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With 11 straight days of games including the dreaded day game following a night of travel I'm expecting the shuttle to be very busy over the next two weeks
Speaking of which --

I know it's traditional for the game one starter to travel a day early so he can get a good night's sleep. But Buchholz probably won't even go 5 full innings. With the travel situation, do the Sox send two pitchers early instead of one? Or three? Barnes and Kimbrel would probably be out of commission for tomorrow, anyway, so there's no real point in keeping them in Baltimore tomorrow.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Speaking of which --

I know it's traditional for the game one starter to travel a day early so he can get a good night's sleep. But Buchholz probably won't even go 5 full innings. With the travel situation, do the Sox send two pitchers early instead of one? Or three? Barnes and Kimbrel would probably be out of commission for tomorrow, anyway, so there's no real point in keeping them in Baltimore tomorrow.
Would it be that outrageous for Kelly/Owens/Ramirez to be called up following the night game while already being shipped ahead with Buchholz while serving as his "long man" to be returned immediately following the game? This would avoid us having to play the night game one short.
 

joe dokes

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Would it be that outrageous for Kelly/Owens/Ramirez to be called up following the night game while already being shipped ahead with Buchholz while serving as his "long man" to be returned immediately following the game? This would avoid us having to play the night game one short.

Wouldn't they have to drop people from the 25 to do that who couldnt be brought back in fewer than 10 days? (Or did I misunderstand?)
 

HomeRunBaker

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Wouldn't they have to drop people from the 25 to do that who couldnt be brought back in fewer than 10 days? (Or did I misunderstand?)
Without a DL stint this is correct which isn't an issue with so many fungible parts and why I didn't include Elias on that potential callup list......but Marrero or Marco would be the obvious player to be sent down.. There is also the potential of ERod to the DL which would allow for Elias or the abovementioned utility player to return sooner.
 

dhappy42

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Farrell said Steven Wright is not yet ready for a bullpen session on Saturday. So starting Tuesday seems unlikely.

Looks like Clay will get another start.

Even though Wright's shoulder is still sore, he's available for pinch running duty.