Devers was ranked higher than Benintendi on many pre-season rankings. He's a big prospect wth legit power potential. Having said that, I have no idea what it would take to get Sale.
Edit-what Snod said
Pitching Targets
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Edit-what Snod said
To further that thought some more, how often does a pre-free agency player get signed to a long-term (and team friendly) deal and have the team turn around and deal him away less than halfway through it? Particularly when he's still playing/pitching well enough to make the contract a hell of a bargain?
Unless the White Sox go into firesale mode and commit to tanking 2016, 2017 and maybe 2018 like the Braves have done the last couple years, Sale isn't going anywhere. And if they were to decide to tank in that manner, there are probably other pieces they'd start selling off first (particularly if it's deadline deals next month) before they make the big splash and deal their ace away.
The problem is that any pitcher that would be worth adding to the roster, that being a pitcher who would actually help, is one that has a team friendly contract and 2 - 3 years of control. Why a team would be interested in moving an asset like that is a hard to contemplate. Sure an outstanding package could be put together to convince a team to release a player. However, the expense to the buyer for an immediate fix could be far more expensive in the long term. It seems like there may be a less expensive way to improve the team w/o coughing up a "boatload" of promising prospects and/or ML contributing players.
A possible solution is to look at a less expensive way to obtain greater pitching stability. That being adding to the pen. Adding one or two of the potential available pen arms (Doolittle, Vizcaino, Jefferees,) to the roster can extend the lack of rotation in the fifth spot while providing more options that could rest arms that will burn out in later part of the season. It will cost but not nearly as much as a young "Stud" starter. The savings may even allow for the addition of a LF'er (Gonzalez, Bruce) who could lock down the position and allow greater flexibility from the players available ... Holt comes to mind. The potential to add two or three useful players who can extend the lineup, stabilize the pen and extend the rotation at a cost slightly more than what it would cost for one of the "Studs" seems worthy of thought.
Just another way of looking at the problem that hopefully adds to the discussion.
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A possible solution is to look at a less expensive way to obtain greater pitching stability. That being adding to the pen. Adding one or two of the potential available pen arms (Doolittle, Vizcaino, Jefferees,) to the roster can extend the lack of rotation in the fifth spot while providing more options that could rest arms that will burn out in later part of the season. It will cost but not nearly as much as a young "Stud" starter. The savings may even allow for the addition of a LF'er (Gonzalez, Bruce) who could lock down the position and allow greater flexibility from the players available ... Holt comes to mind. The potential to add two or three useful players who can extend the lineup, stabilize the pen and extend the rotation at a cost slightly more than what it would cost for one of the "Studs" seems worthy of thought.
Just another way of looking at the problem that hopefully adds to the discussion.
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Fair enough but I'm fairly certain they're gonna want a legit prospect who's a little closer to the majors instead of someone they'll have to wait longer for. If they really think they can contend soon, don't seem reasonable that they're going to trade a proven commodity for a player who's so far away
But if they think they can contend soon, they're not trading Sale for anything, as has been noted. In any universe where the White Sox trade Sale, they're giving up on the next three years and would there be more interested in guys in single A. And the Red Sox happen to have two really, really good very young prospects in Espinoza and Moncada. I think any deal starts with those two plus Swihart, and as much as it would hurt, the thought of this offense hitting behind Price and Sale in the rotation makes them really strong in a 7 game series. I'd do it if Chicago would.
Plus, the AL Central should start opening wide beginning with next season, as the Royals' core begins breaking up. Cleveland looks like their prime competition over the next 3 seasons of Sale's control.
The White Sox have a terrific inner core of 4-5 players, but they need to find decent guys to supplement them. Dealing off the greatest single piece of that great core is counterproductive.
Plus, after this four-game set, they'll be what...about 3 games out of the AL wild card in late June? That hardly screams sell-now.
First and only one I could think of, but nowhere near the same level as Sale. Arroyo was a good complimentary piece that they missed dearly but he wasn't a centerpiece type player that you can build a franchise around. Sale is that kind of pitcher.
Even considering the Arroyo trade, he wasn't moved in a tear-it-down-to-build-for-the-future deal. He was viewed, mistakenly in hindsight, as expendable depth that they could convert into something of more immediate use. While he technically answers the question of a player traded in the midst of a long team friendly deal, the situations aren't all that comparable.
Owens just threw a 7-inning one-hitter. Maybe if he can repeat that type of performance a few times, he'll come back into the picture.
Then walk a bunch in the majors again? Owens is looking more and more like he can dominate AAA hitters but won't be able to translate it to the bigs.
I think you need to be careful about writing off prospects too quickly. There's a balance, obviously, because statistically most prospects don't pan out, but I don't think you can say that yet.
Owens is 23 and has all of 75 major league innings under his belt.
At 23, Jon Lester was recovering from cancer and ended up putting up a 4.57 ERA in 63 IP with 31 walks (albeit followed up with a pretty memorable final start of the season
. The year before he had walked 43 in 81 major league innings and was considered by some to be too wild to be a reliable starter.
He'll get more chances because his ceiling is so high, and yes he's young but his makeup on the field has been lacking so far, reminding me of Webster a bit.
Relevant to this thread, Owen's chances of contributing significantly this year feel very low to me.
Relevant to this thread, Owen's chances of contributing significantly this year feel very low to me.
Yeah, I'm not jumping to any rosy conclusions yet either. But it seems all too tempting to dump a guy like him for some veteran mediocrity who isn't a serious upgrade to begin with.
This team can't tinker ...they are falling apart before our eyes it's time for a big move .....Greinke ,Price,Wright are the only rotation that can send Papi off the right way ....all others we are kidding ourselves...Yes some kids will go who cares this is Boston not Sandiego .
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The Red Sox currently have young homegrown players at C, SS, 3B, CF, and RF, and had another at LF before he got hurt. Three of them are star players. They also have an older guy at 2nd they developed. And that's before you consider that two starters were also developed in house. Meanwhile, San Diego recently traded away their entire farm for aging vets on the wrong side of their careers and had a terrible season because of it.
How about Brad Ziegler from the Diamondbacks? He's an unremarkable closer for a team that's going nowhere. And he's 36 years old with an expiring contract. So he's nothing to get terribly excited about. But he's a submariner who generates ground balls and has been remarkably consistent since breaking out with the A's about a decade ago. Trading for a guy like Ziegler is more about keeping the top arms fresh and limiting the number of outings for some of their more unreliable guys (Barnes, e.g.).
Jacob DaGrom!! New York needs bats baby...red Sox Ruiz...LMAO
All the trades sound good. In the end you have to develop a few of your own minor league pitchers.
If I'm Dombrowski you have to look at the minor league scouting directors and their body of work the last few years to see where the problem is in that regards.
If I'm Dombrowski you have to look at the minor league scouting directors and their body of work the last few years to see where the problem is in that regards.
There are three obvious names that should be targets: Sale, Quintana and Fernandez. The problem is that considering their contracts and where their teams are in the standings, I highly doubt that any of those three are available. Then there is everyone else, and I'd hate to pay a price of Moncada, Benintendi or Espinoza for any of these guys. It's too steep a price for too questionable a return, given how flawed this Sox team is and that it may not be enough to get them over the hump. I'd love to have Papi roll off into retirement on a duck boat, but not at the risk of the near future to the extent that losing those three may cause.
That leaves me looking at a guy I never thought I'd look at, Zack Greinke. If the DBacks want to get out of the contract, he's probably only going to cost payroll and a lotto ticket. If the Sox can absorb this payroll without reducing their economic ability to extend the 3Bs, then he's the guy to target. Unfortunately, I just don't know anything about Henry's financial limits, so I'm not certain how realistic this is.
Other guys I'd like to see considered are Ziegler and/or Doolittle to bolster the bullpen. I think the cost on these guys should be reasonable (i.e., not the big 3 and probably not Devers or Kopech) considering their teams position and their contract situation. Also, Ziegler could be used as a sweetener for the Sox to absorb more of Greinke's contract, if such a deal emerges.
A trade to the DBacks for Greinke and Ziegler and the As for Doolittle and Reddick would go a long way to filling some roster holes in 2016 at what would likely amount to a low acquisition cost in terms of the farm system.
That leaves me looking at a guy I never thought I'd look at, Zack Greinke. If the DBacks want to get out of the contract, he's probably only going to cost payroll and a lotto ticket. If the Sox can absorb this payroll without reducing their economic ability to extend the 3Bs, then he's the guy to target. Unfortunately, I just don't know anything about Henry's financial limits, so I'm not certain how realistic this is.
Other guys I'd like to see considered are Ziegler and/or Doolittle to bolster the bullpen. I think the cost on these guys should be reasonable (i.e., not the big 3 and probably not Devers or Kopech) considering their teams position and their contract situation. Also, Ziegler could be used as a sweetener for the Sox to absorb more of Greinke's contract, if such a deal emerges.
A trade to the DBacks for Greinke and Ziegler and the As for Doolittle and Reddick would go a long way to filling some roster holes in 2016 at what would likely amount to a low acquisition cost in terms of the farm system.
At what point do we admit that the bullpen also needs at least another arm? The Taz-UE-Kimbrel trio isn't good enough.
This is the kind of deal I hope DD contemplates. I'm not in the "win it now for papi" camp. I'd like to see this team compete for a playoff spot and see what happens. That can be achieved by adding a decent bull pen arm or two.
Ziegler doesn't have insane overall numbers, but it's worth noting that he has converted 43 straight save opportunities going back to May 9 of last season (I think up to 6th alltime for the longest consecutive streaks without blowing one), so he might not be as cheap as that description above makes it seem, even though he will be a FA.
We need to go get Jake McGee or Sean Doolittle, just please don't panic and overpay. Ideally, we get Doolittle and Gray in the same deal.
And just how do you think we are going to be able to pry away 2 cost controlled all star pitchers? I think everyone would love the idea, but it's unrealistic to happen.
I can't think of a situation like that ever occurring. The cost would be enormous.
I love speculation threads, but there needs to be a realistic cost involved of a suggested trade.
Anyone not admitting this already isn't paying attention. I'm pretty confident Dombrowski is of this opinion. How can you not be after losing Smith for the year?
The Ziegler suggestion sounds ideal -- guy on an expiring deal, probably low cost re prospects. Just getting more healthy arms will at least take some of the pressure off the rest of the pen, which probably means a lot right now.
[Edit] Adding, I'm not in the win-now-for-Papi camp, which seems to be a platform for mortgaging the future in a year where we have other dominant teams that we're likely to lose out to anyway. If you can find a second cost-controlled ace for a reasonable (painful) price, or prospect discount (a.k.a. Greinke) then fine, but nobody should be thinking of peddling Moncada or Benintendi for a quick fix.
Kelly will be coming back at some point. Consensus here is that he will go to the pen.
Eckersley keeps trashing Rodriguez for having only 2 pitches (fastball & change) - which has been disputed by some.
2 pitches may work out of the pen, but not 2-3 times through the order. Rodriguez was humping well-placed fastballs up there at 95 before screwing the pooch the other day. Could he throw harder if it was only for 20 pitches? Does he even have the makeup to relieve (quick warm-ups / uncertain usage)?
Maybe we should discuss the pluses and minuses of Kelly vs Rodriguez to the pen considering Uehara is possibly running out of bullets.
Eckersley keeps trashing Rodriguez for having only 2 pitches (fastball & change) - which has been disputed by some.
2 pitches may work out of the pen, but not 2-3 times through the order. Rodriguez was humping well-placed fastballs up there at 95 before screwing the pooch the other day. Could he throw harder if it was only for 20 pitches? Does he even have the makeup to relieve (quick warm-ups / uncertain usage)?
Maybe we should discuss the pluses and minuses of Kelly vs Rodriguez to the pen considering Uehara is possibly running out of bullets.
Kelly sure, but moving Rodriguez to the pen opens an even wider hole in the rotation than the one in the bullpen.
Having him get his shit together to be an above average (at least) starter is more important to this team this year than an incremental improvement to the bullpen.
Having him get his shit together to be an above average (at least) starter is more important to this team this year than an incremental improvement to the bullpen.
Ue & Taz can't be overworked. Think Kelly needs to go be the key piece in the bullpen, he's not going t get is shit together as a starter
I'm in the win-now camp for Big Papi- only to the extent that they are able to bring back a piece that will have them in contention for 3 more seasons(ish). I'm open to dealing one of our top 4 prospects but only if we are able to get a top tier starting pitcher back- we've already knocked around a few of the options which look like they will have to be a 3-team deal. I just do not want to see any of our top guys dealt for a Peavy type guy or a half season rental. If we can't go big here on a deal to bring in a compliment to Price and Wright then I'd rather keep the kids- they'll clearly be part of a great core for another 3 years (or longer if we can sign the Killer B's to long term contracts).
MLB Network Radio @MLBNetworkRadio 13s13 seconds ago
.@JimBowden_ESPN "John Coppolella and Dave Dombrowski have had the conversation and Dave has asked about Julio Tehran and Arodys Vizcaíno"
MLB Network Radio @MLBNetworkRadio 14s14 seconds ago
.@JimBowden_ESPN on #RedSox interest in Tehran & Vizcaíno "one stop shopping and your done. Problem is the Braves like Moncada & Benintendi"
.@JimBowden_ESPN "John Coppolella and Dave Dombrowski have had the conversation and Dave has asked about Julio Tehran and Arodys Vizcaíno"
MLB Network Radio @MLBNetworkRadio 14s14 seconds ago
.@JimBowden_ESPN on #RedSox interest in Tehran & Vizcaíno "one stop shopping and your done. Problem is the Braves like Moncada & Benintendi"
Here's the context behind those tweets. It's about 3 minutes of audio between Bowden and Ferrin.
I think Dombrowski trading at least one of the big four is kind of like vomiting when you have a stomach bug. It's going to suck, but you know it's going to happen so it might as well happen soon.
But seriously, if he's going to trade either Moncada or Benintendi, I want somebody back with a higher ceiling than Teheran and less uncertainty than Vizcaino.
I can see why DD is interested in Vizcaino.
For this year, he's a fantastic late inning fire baller (2.01 ERA, 2.58 FIP, 12 K/9, fastball sits in upper 90s) . Would allow us to manage Koji and Taz's innings and handle the struggles of the rotation.
Looking beyond, he's cost-controlled (arb eligible through 2019) and obviously with the impending Taz/Koji departures and Carson Smith's recovery would be our setup guy in 2017 and Kimbrel/Smith insurance.
Edit: The issue will be how much the Braves will demand and can get for him, clearly. The Nationals arguably need bullpen help more than we do, and the Giants, Cubs, and Rangers are probably in the market as well.
For this year, he's a fantastic late inning fire baller (2.01 ERA, 2.58 FIP, 12 K/9, fastball sits in upper 90s) . Would allow us to manage Koji and Taz's innings and handle the struggles of the rotation.
Looking beyond, he's cost-controlled (arb eligible through 2019) and obviously with the impending Taz/Koji departures and Carson Smith's recovery would be our setup guy in 2017 and Kimbrel/Smith insurance.
Edit: The issue will be how much the Braves will demand and can get for him, clearly. The Nationals arguably need bullpen help more than we do, and the Giants, Cubs, and Rangers are probably in the market as well.
Either him or Benintendi, yes. Almost certainly. And then some more.
Teheran has been a Frank Wren guy since he was 16. It was always most likely that he'd be the midseason starter pickup.
And 2016 became a GFIN season as soon as Papi announced his retirement.
I refuse to believe the Sox FO is that dumb. Ortiz has won three rings in a Sox uniform, more than anybody since before women were allowed to vote. It would be great to get him a fourth, but that should not drive team-building strategy.
GFIN makes sense when you you're looking at a window that's rapidly closing, where multiple key players are likely to be gone soon and you don't see much likelihood of competing for a while after that. The Sox are in the opposite of that situation. Other than Papi, every single key player on this team is going to be around for several more years, and we have several high-ceiling reinforcements coming over the next 2-3 years. This team is set up to contend for the next five years at least, and it's really important that we don't fuck that up.
It's one thing to say that there's an imbalance of talent in the system right now, with multiple top position players and thin pitching, and therefore we need to spend some positional talent to shore up the pitching. That makes sense, but it's not a GFIN move. It wouldn't make any sense to trade a top prospect for Teheran, for instance, if he weren't locked up through 2020.
Rob Bradford @bradfo 11m11 minutes ago
Teheran/Vizcaino package @JimBowden_ESPN surfaced would really test Red Sox resolve to hold on to Moncada/Benintendi. Hardly a no-brainer
Teheran/Vizcaino package @JimBowden_ESPN surfaced would really test Red Sox resolve to hold on to Moncada/Benintendi. Hardly a no-brainer
I'm not wild about trading either one of them in such a deal, but I understand that's what it would take to get both a quality SP & RP the same trade. The question is could Teheran and Vizcaino really translate to the AL East, and which of the two you give up, and all that shit.
If Atlanta wants both and/or one of the Killer B's too, I'll pass.
If Atlanta wants both and/or one of the Killer B's too, I'll pass.
Jim Bowden's been known to blow a lot of smoke. I wouldn't put much stock in this rumor until someone a little more credible confirms this as anything more than the random guesswork of a failed ex-GM looking for attention.
I personally agree with all of that, and would much rather sit tight at this deadline than make pick-ups that deal off future studs for non-perfect-match pickups. I think Teheran may well be one of those, although perhaps he's the rare outlier whose numbers improve when pitching for a contending team in packed ballparks against stacked lineups.
However, I think the FO is pressured to win one more before the heart of this ownership's team retires. No matter how bright the future seems with all three of the Killer B's looking pretty lethal.
Are you basing this on anything? Because my sense of this ownership is that they value long-term competitiveness, which is why they invested so heavily in a player development machine that has just begun to bear fruit with Betts/Bogaerts/JBJ and is poised to bear even more fruit when Benintendi and Moncada reach the majors -- not so long, in fact, after Ortiz retires and leaves a huge hole in our lineup.
They may have hired Mike Ilitch's GM, but adopting Mike Ilitch's "win this year at all costs" mindset would be a pretty dramatic swerve from everything we've seen from this ownership group, wouldn't it?
Moving on from Cherington and hiring DD was a pretty major swerve. Ditto for Price & Kimbrel deals. DD has both bought and sold Price the past two trade deadlines - he can be very splashy that time of year.
I don't think so. He has his history of being a wheeler-dealer, but looking over his transaction history, how many times has he traded premier prospects?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Dave_Dombrowski#Significant_Trades
If you ignore the fire sales in Montreal or Miami, outside of the Cabrera deal, I'm not seeing a whole lot of big name prospects, or at least any that bit him in the ass later. Even the Price deal, he didn't send out much - Smyly is doing admirably but he certainly wasn't highly rated.
I don't think he's going to move Moncada or Benintendi unless he gets a decree from the ownership (which I don't think happens). I could see Devers or Espinoza and for the right guy I'd be ok with those because they are still pretty volatile being so far away.
I'm not even remotely saying that he's in "win at all costs" mode.
What I'm saying is that David Ortiz has been both the face of the Red Sox and the heart of its lineup since the 2004 ALCS. That's almost the entire time Henry's group has owned the Sox. But I'm not saying the beat won't go on without Papi, or that the team should mortgage the entire future just because he'll be hanging up his cleats in 4 months.
Just that DDski will be willing to mortgage some of it.
I mean, come on. This is the last, transcendent, year of Big Papi. Bogaerts has been sublime, and promises to be awesome for the next several years, but even he's batting 0.200 OPS lower than Ortiz.
I think DDski would eventually GFIN with, probably, three of the top ten prospects, plus some other young post-prospects, in order to get Teheran and Vizcaino. Atlanta can hold out the next five weeks to try to pry off one or both of Moncada and Benintendi. DDski can hold out until then in a stare-down, so long as the Sox can remain in striking distance of the playoffs.
And by holding out, maybe DDski can still provide the best package by offering more of the lesser (but still good) options he's got on hand. But maybe he won't be able to get Atlanta to bite on Devers and Kopech and Chavis instead; and if Atlanta doesn't budge then I think DDski will absolutely bend from this current no-Moncada, no-Benintendi stance, to get the guy he and Frank Wren want.