Women's World Cup 2019

Cellar-Door

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The only question in this game was whether the US would win by more or less than the 9-0 they won the last time
 

SoxFanInCali

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Give Thailand credit, this is closer than the final against Japan 4 years ago was at this point of the game.
 

Cellar-Door

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Lindsey Horan, your reminder that without the combination of Title IX and rampant sexism around the world the USWNT would probably be nearly as shitty as the USMNT because USSF is a trashpile
 

Titans Bastard

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In these sorts of games, there's a talent gap and then there's also a massive fitness gap. A lot of the players in the lower-tier WWC teams don't have the support or resources to be entirely full-time.

This could get very ugly.
 

SoxFanInCali

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Nice luxury to be able to bring on Carli Lloyd and Christen Press with a 7 goal lead.

That was 4 goals in 5:37.
 

InstaFace

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yeah bringing on the recent World Women's Player of the Year when the Thai team is already visibly sucking wind is just unfair. Seems like overkill.
 

SoxFanInCali

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Pugh in for Ertz. Defenders not necessary here.

Pugh, despite being around for several years already, just turned 21 a month of so ago.
 

SoxFanInCali

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Celia Sasic won the Golden Boot last World Cup with 6 goals (beating out Lloyd on a tiebreaker) primarily because of a hat trick in a 10-0 Germany win over Ivory Coast.


Morgan looking to take a similar path.
 

SoxFanInCali

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I don't care how many stoppages for goals there have been. The ref better blow right on 90'.

EDIT: Nope, 3 added minutes. Why?
 

SoxFanInCali

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Shots were 40-2.

FIFA is trying to grow the game (or at least make more money while looking like they are trying to grow the game), but there clearly are not 24 teams that can play at this level.
 

Titans Bastard

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Shots were 40-2.

FIFA is trying to grow the game (or at least make more money while looking like they are trying to grow the game), but there clearly are not 24 teams that can play at this level.
Yeah, the depth is not there because far too many federations, especially those from "traditional soccer countries" don't do much to support the women's side of the sport. Belgium and Portugal have never qualified, for example, and Spain has only made it once. Latin American countries tend to be particularly egregious.

Thailand is basically here by accident. North Korea was banned from the 2014 AFC Women's Cup because of a doping scandal, so they weren't seeded in qualifying for the 2018 edition, which doubles as WCQ. Consequently, they were drawn with South Korea, and got eliminated in qualifiers on goal difference. Without NK in the mix Thailand found themselves in an easy final group with China, Philippines, and Jordan.

AFC gets five slots because Japan, Australia, and China are all consistently competitive, so Thailand's 2nd place finish behind China was enough to secure qualification. Had they finished third behind China and North Korea, they probably would have lost the playoff to the other 3rd place finisher, South Korea.

In the end I think 24 teams is the right size. Thailand is the only team to really get massacred. South Korea lost 4-0 to home team / serious contender France, which is totally something that could happen in a men's World Cup as well. Minnows like Argentina (weird to write that) got a very credible draw against Japan, etc.
 

67YAZ

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If they win the Cup, this will be remembered as the opening salvo of a team with great togetherness. If they lose, it will remembered as a foolish & shortsighted display strength. Right now, Nigeria-South Korea looks like it could be a competitive match.
 

Ale Xander

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Most of the blame should fall on FIFA, for putting such a wide talent disparity in the tournament, and also not putting a per game cap on GD, which only encourages a team like the USA to pulverize the Thai team to beyond embarrassment. If you haven't already, you should really read the book Thirty-One - Nil about what it is like for these tiny, underfunded nations to compete at the international level.

13-0 is really rare in international soccer today, though. The USMNT has never won a game by more than 8-0; and that includes tons of games against microscopic CONCACAF sides. I was looking through the results of the San Marino National Men's team, which is famous for being a minnow in an ocean of blue whales. Over the last five years, San Marino hasn't lost a game by greater than 9-0, and they have played giants like Germany, Italy and England in EURO qualifying groups where GD has absolutely mattered. Maybe the talent gap between San Marino and Germany is smaller than the US and Thailand, but I kind of doubt it. 13-0 is a lot.
The comparison for USWNT is the Mannschaft or the Seleçao not the USMNT. USMNT not beating anyone by more then 8-0 has nothing to do with their sportspersonship.
 

coremiller

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Most of the blame should fall on FIFA, for putting such a wide talent disparity in the tournament, and also not putting a per game cap on GD, which only encourages a team like the USA to pulverize the Thai team to beyond embarrassment. If you haven't already, you should really read the book Thirty-One - Nil about what it is like for these tiny, underfunded nations to compete at the international level.

13-0 is really rare in international soccer today, though. The USMNT has never won a game by more than 8-0; and that includes tons of games against microscopic CONCACAF sides. I was looking through the results of the San Marino National Men's team, which is famous for being a minnow in an ocean of blue whales. Over the last five years, San Marino hasn't lost a game by greater than 9-0, and they have played giants like Germany, Italy and England in EURO qualifying groups where GD has absolutely mattered. Maybe the talent gap between San Marino and Germany is smaller than the US and Thailand, but I kind of doubt it. 13-0 is a lot.
The expected goals were only about 8-0 (still a huge number). The Thais qualified for the 2015 WC and their worst loss was 0-4, twice, to Norway and Germany (then the world #1 team).

This may have been an issue:


Something else that is possible with underfunded teams where most of the players are essentially only semi-professional is match-fixing. Probably not an issue here but who knows?

The comparison for USWNT is the Mannschaft or the Seleçao not the USMNT. USMNT not beating anyone by more then 8-0 has nothing to do with their sportspersonship.
Germany beat Estonia 8-0 in Euro qualifying yesterday.
 

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Germany beat Estonia 8-0 in Euro qualifying yesterday.
And after the last several goals, the celebration consisted of the goal scorer coming to a stop, walking over to the person that passed them the ball, and slapping hands with him.
 

SocrManiac

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I've seen a lot of commentary on her only being 5'4", but that didn't have much to do with how poor she was. It's nice to see the stats bear out that the scoreline should have been lower. Rapinoe's goal doesn't make it past a cardboard cutout of a keeper standing in a ready position in the center of the goal. Even Morgan's cracker of a fifth is probably saved by most (Sukanya Chor Charoenying got a hand on it).

I've crossed over to the goal in the women's game needing to be smaller. Strikers are getting more and more lethal, hitting corners with power regularly so even elite goalkeepers don't have a prayer. There's a reason that the elite male goalkeepers are the size they are.

Here's the Emma Hayes take that got me thinking about it: https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/22/chelsea-women-manager-emma-hayes-urges-goals-made-smaller-womens-game-9640291/
 

67YAZ

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Being as patriotic as I am, I just realized that they scored 13 goals for the 13 stripes on the flag. This is so much of a tempest in a teapot.

Only saw the highlights, but great job by Nigeria to execute perfectly and knock off South Korea. SK had the better of the match, but an own goal and a perfectly executed break away were plenty for Nigeria. I married into a Korean family, so it's a bummer to see how poorly SK has played (both here and in the first two men's World Cup matches last year). But I have spent a lot time in West Africa and am hugely excited for their potential on the world stage, men and women. Hopefully the Super Falcons' success can spur some more investment in the women's game there.

France-Norway should be a good one.
 

67YAZ

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The quality & skill in this France Norway match is better than any in the tournament thusfar.
Very impressive through the middle of the field - great dribbles and passing - but decidedly mediocre near the box. Hopefully the end product will be better in the second half. And there's always Renard looming on the set pieces...
 

67YAZ

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Very impressive through the middle of the field - great dribbles and passing - but decidedly mediocre near the box. Hopefully the end product will be better in the second half. And there's always Renard looming on the set pieces...
I guess France took my words to heart.

This would be a completely different match, maybe even tournament, with Hegerberg.

Edit: OOF! Renard does loom large, just in the wrong way this time.
 

SoxFanInCali

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I guess France took my words to heart.

This would be a completely different match, maybe even tournament, with Hegerberg.
That really should be the story of the tournament. The 23 year old Ballon d'Or winner refusing to play for her national team in the World Cup. Really is a shame, hope that in the long run it changes things in Norway.
 

67YAZ

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That really should be the story of the tournament. The 23 year old Ballon d'Or winner refusing to play for her national team in the World Cup. Really is a shame, hope that in the long run it changes things in Norway.
I've actually seen a fair bit mainstream press about it, like a 700 word piece in USA Today. And on one pregame, Fox spent 5+ minutes on it. But my expectations are low.

I'm actually surprised I'm not seeing and hearing more about the US women's legal battle.
 

Tangled Up In Red

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That really should be the story of the tournament. The 23 year old Ballon d'Or winner refusing to play for her national team in the World Cup. Really is a shame, hope that in the long run it changes things in Norway.
But there is more to it than women's pay, from what I've heard. Not sure many know what the real story (stories?) is on this...
But yeah, there should be a hell of a lot more digging in to this.
 

SoxFanInCali

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But there is more to it than women's pay, from what I've heard. Not sure many know what the real story (stories?) is on this...
But yeah, there should be a hell of a lot more digging in to this.
Yeah, I read an article a couple weeks ago where she basically said the experience broke her, and she was having nightmares that stopped as soon as she quit the team. Part of me wants to know why, but the other part of me thinks that's her business and maybe we shouldn't dig too deeply.

EDIT: Found the article
 

Kliq

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The comparison for USWNT is the Mannschaft or the Seleçao not the USMNT. USMNT not beating anyone by more then 8-0 has nothing to do with their sportspersonship.
As frustrated as we can be with the USMNT; it would be ridiculous to ignore the Grand Canyon size gap between the US and some of it's CONCACAF opponents.

If this happened in the men's WC, say for example, Germany vs. any developing nation that was in their 1st Cup appearance, and Germany dropped a 13 spot on said nation, no one would EXPECT that the men should have pulled back. No one. It would be discussed, but more like this: Commentator: "Wow, you have to wonder if they considered just passing it back and forth there across the field, but when the defense is that porous, what can be expected? I mean, how can the best #10 in the world NOT score when the ball is funneled through to him so easily? It would be disrespectful to the game not to finish there." That'd be about the end of it, I think.
I think a lot of people would be disgusted if the German (or Brazilian, French, Spanish, etc.) team pounded Equatorial Guinea in a 13-0 game in the WCF; and it would lead to a big discussion about the value of GD in a tournament like this, and the expansion of the World Cup to include more teams and whether or not that is beneficial to developing soccer nations that are not ready to compete at this level. Which I think is largely what is being discussed in this thread.

Since we are painting with a broad brush here; are there a lot of people on here that said they EXPECTED the USWNT to stop scoring? Most people on here seem to believe that the GD encourages them to score that much, and the problem lies within the GD system and the inclusion of inferior teams into the tournament; with Titan's Bastard pointing out that Thailand fluked into the tournament thanks to North Korea getting punished for previous violations. I haven't read many posts that seem to indicate the USWNT were expected to stop scoring.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I've been posting in Gazza since I was first a lurker, and I'm a pretty big footy fan so hopefully what I'm about to say won't come across like one of those complaints you hear in the U.S. every time the word cup rolls around about what is supposedly wrong with the game and whether it needs to be fixed. So, with that long wind up . . .

It is starting to feel to me as though the reward of a penalty is no longer commensurate with some of the infractions that lead to one. Especially with VAR we've now passed the point where there's any requirement for advantage denied. I know that's never been a criteria, and certainly the benefits of trying to move beyond games being decided by individual ref idiosyncrasies are significant. But the practices that have developed to make penalties so they can be judged by video evidence is not leading to a great place in my view.

There's no good solution here. But I find myself sort of imagining that it might be nice to have some sort of rule that gave teams an advantage for certain infractions not quite as a beneficial as a penalty shot. Maybe like a 10 minute power play or something. Again, I know that will be seen as ridiculous and why screw with a game that 3 billion people love as it is by trying to NFL-ize it with new funny rules. Still, it is getting a little crazy.
 

67YAZ

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I've been posting in Gazza since I was first a lurker, and I'm a pretty big footy fan so hopefully what I'm about to say won't come across like one of those complaints you hear in the U.S. every time the word cup rolls around about what is supposedly wrong with the game and whether it needs to be fixed. So, with that long wind up . . .

It is starting to feel to me as though the reward of a penalty is no longer commensurate with some of the infractions that lead to one. Especially with VAR we've now passed the point where there's any requirement for advantage denied. I know that's never been a criteria, and certainly the benefits of trying to move beyond games being decided by individual ref idiosyncrasies are significant. But the practices that have developed to make penalties so they can be judged by video evidence is not leading to a great place in my view.

There's no good solution here. But I find myself sort of imagining that it might be nice to have some sort of rule that gave teams an advantage for certain infractions not quite as a beneficial as a penalty shot. Maybe like a 10 minute power play or something. Again, I know that will be seen as ridiculous and why screw with a game that 3 billion people love as it is by trying to NFL-ize it with new funny rules. Still, it is getting a little crazy.
This last match was a case in point. I don't think it was penalty at all, not sure what they went to VAR for.
 

luckysox

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I guess France took my words to heart.

This would be a completely different match, maybe even tournament, with Hegerberg.

Edit: OOF! Renard does loom large, just in the wrong way this time.
As amazing as scoring in the WC would feel, I bet it doesn't get much worse than own-goaling on this stage, in front of your home country fans, and to tie the score. I'm glad they ended up winning.
 

ernieshore

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I've been posting in Gazza since I was first a lurker, and I'm a pretty big footy fan so hopefully what I'm about to say won't come across like one of those complaints you hear in the U.S. every time the word cup rolls around about what is supposedly wrong with the game and whether it needs to be fixed. So, with that long wind up . . .

It is starting to feel to me as though the reward of a penalty is no longer commensurate with some of the infractions that lead to one. Especially with VAR we've now passed the point where there's any requirement for advantage denied. I know that's never been a criteria, and certainly the benefits of trying to move beyond games being decided by individual ref idiosyncrasies are significant. But the practices that have developed to make penalties so they can be judged by video evidence is not leading to a great place in my view.

There's no good solution here. But I find myself sort of imagining that it might be nice to have some sort of rule that gave teams an advantage for certain infractions not quite as a beneficial as a penalty shot. Maybe like a 10 minute power play or something. Again, I know that will be seen as ridiculous and why screw with a game that 3 billion people love as it is by trying to NFL-ize it with new funny rules. Still, it is getting a little crazy.
Henry Bushnell from Yahoo had an column kind of about this a couple days ago that I thought was interesting (though I am admittedly anti-replay/VAR on about everything, except tennis and maybe rugby).
 

luckysox

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Good Post. I am a man who coaches very competitive varsity girls basketball. Several of the players in our program have gone on to play major D-1 college over the past 10 years. This discussion is a major topic and point of contention right now in our region. Many of the female athletes and their coaches are beyond frustrated with the double standard and blatant sexist expectations for female competitors. I can say unequivocally that female athletes are expected to smile and be and play nice at all times. Same goes with the coaches even if those coaches are male. Our girls cannot so much as look at an official the wrong way without getting a T. I cannot literally say anything without getting a T. I have received one T in my career and that was this year in a rivalry game in the 4th quarter of a tie game when my PG was taken out on a clear trip in space and no call was made. It was the second time it had occurred in that game. I yelled "Unbelievable!" as I walked away from the official and he T'd me up. Meanwhile, our boys coach gets in the faces of officials, points his finger, and rants and raves much to the delight of the crowd, our alumni, and our administration. If I did 4% of what he does I would be fired and not given another girls job in our region. It is that bad. The same expectations go with sportsmanship toward our opponents. While boys will bragg, point to the crowd or to themselves, and show off constantly, our girls are expected to maintain strict decorum at all times. It is nauseating to be in a meeting with my AD the day after a game because I had a player tell the crowd who had taunted all game to shush. She was suspended by my AD for one game (btw, the principal is female and agreed with the suspension). Meanwhile, a JV boys player pushed an opposing player this season and received a stern warning. This is common among our region and from what I can gather at national coaches meetings it's even worse in less progressive areas. "Be nice" is a phrase I do not go aa week without hearing to describe how my girls should behave.

FTR, I am not advocating poor sportsmanship and I recognize the differences between high school and professional athletics (I would not expect to see big bat flips in high school baseball or softball e.g.) but it is simply the case in my experience that female athletes are held to much higher standards in sportsmanship than their male peers.
Thank you for sharing this. I am appalled that this is still the case some 20+ years after I was a high school basketball player (and softball and soccer) with the same standards. I got T'd up my freshman year in high school for saying "Aww, come on!" after getting called for a reach-in foul. My coach, who was also the football coach, pulled me out of the game and I rode pine the rest of the night. Meanwhile, our boys' team coach would kick the bottom facing of the bleachers and wood would splinter onto the floor, he'd jerk around like he was being electrocuted every time a call went against his boys, he'd throw his assistant coach's clipboard into the 2nd row and...crickets. Wait, worse than crickets - it was entertainment. People laughed and said, "Oh Buddy Evans, I'll tell you, that guys is NUTS! He's crazy out there!" But a girl question a ref's call with the 3 most commonly uttered words in any athletes' lexicon? Hope, not having any of that.

I feel like we have come pretty far some days - at least this year I'm not in here arguing with people over why it's wrong to discuss the level of attractiveness that, say, Hope Solo had relative to that of Alex Morgan or Julie Ertz. I mean, baby steps, I guess. But I know that, in addition to what you state above about girls/women (and their coaches) being expected to have a more refined sense of sportsmanship, they are also expected to look a certain way, and that almost always starts with smiling when being presented on any sort of a stage. Growl all you want on the court or field with your teammates and coaches. But damn, if the paper comes to take pictures? Make sure you straighten your pony tail (and heaven forbid you don't have long hair) and it's totally fine if you run to thew locker room to freshen your make up. This is the same at every level, and suspect it will be forever. The majority of sports fans who consume said sports through any kind of media are men; Lots of men like pony tails and smiles and perky...everything. Some are consuming the whole woman, not just the actual sport. To pull those guys in, the powers that be really want to "girl it up" in any way possible.
 

luckysox

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Can we split the macro-level womens sports stuff into a new thread? I've been thinking about starting one around the WNBA and the stuff that's going on with pro women's hockey, and this is all a great start. But it sort of sucks that our WWC thread has already devolved to this.
Probably a good idea. I thought about doing that to being with, but I thought maybe the discussion here would get more eyes, and I think it's an important topic (if you couldn't tell). I'm totally fine with shutting up now, or chiming in in another thread if someone wants to open one.
 

BaseballJones

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Thank you for sharing this. I am appalled that this is still the case some 20+ years after I was a high school basketball player (and softball and soccer) with the same standards. I got T'd up my freshman year in high school for saying "Aww, come on!" after getting called for a reach-in foul. My coach, who was also the football coach, pulled me out of the game and I rode pine the rest of the night. Meanwhile, our boys' team coach would kick the bottom facing of the bleachers and wood would splinter onto the floor, he'd jerk around like he was being electrocuted every time a call went against his boys, he'd throw his assistant coach's clipboard into the 2nd row and...crickets. Wait, worse than crickets - it was entertainment. People laughed and said, "Oh Buddy Evans, I'll tell you, that guys is NUTS! He's crazy out there!" But a girl question a ref's call with the 3 most commonly uttered words in any athletes' lexicon? Hope, not having any of that.

I feel like we have come pretty far some days - at least this year I'm not in here arguing with people over why it's wrong to discuss the level of attractiveness that, say, Hope Solo had relative to that of Alex Morgan or Julie Ertz. I mean, baby steps, I guess. But I know that, in addition to what you state above about girls/women (and their coaches) being expected to have a more refined sense of sportsmanship, they are also expected to look a certain way, and that almost always starts with smiling when being presented on any sort of a stage. Growl all you want on the court or field with your teammates and coaches. But damn, if the paper comes to take pictures? Make sure you straighten your pony tail (and heaven forbid you don't have long hair) and it's totally fine if you run to thew locker room to freshen your make up. This is the same at every level, and suspect it will be forever. The majority of sports fans who consume said sports through any kind of media are men; Lots of men like pony tails and smiles and perky...everything. Some are consuming the whole woman, not just the actual sport. To pull those guys in, the powers that be really want to "girl it up" in any way possible.
To your point, when was the last time you saw an unattractive female music star? It’s almost like it’s a requirement for a woman to be successful in the music business that she be attractive too, which really bothers me because there are some incredibly talented female singers who will never have the kind of career that more attractive women will have, even if they can sing far better. Note that men in the music industry face no such standard.

I don’t agree that this means that being critical of celebrating of the USWNT when they’ve just scored the 12th goal against the equivalent of a small college team means you’re being sexist, however, to bring it back to the topic at hand. But I can understand why you’re seeing a connection. I don’t think there’s a men’s national team in the world that wouldn’t get crucified in the same situation. If Germany did that to Grenada (the celebrations, not the goals) they’d get skewered, I think.

Edit: mods, I was writing this as you were splitting the threads so feel free to move this if you think it best fits in the other thread.
 

InstaFace

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But there is more to it than women's pay, from what I've heard. Not sure many know what the real story (stories?) is on this...
But yeah, there should be a hell of a lot more digging in to this.
This article dug into her words, which were more forthcoming the farther back you went, and I think was able to give a clear enough picture. But yes, the Norwegian FA equalized pay between the two teams and it didn't change a thing for Hegerberg.

She's not a crusader for rights and equality. She's not trying to "make a point". This isn't a negotiation. She's putting herself first, and getting out of a situation that she felt was stifling of individuality (which oversimplifies - read the article). The Swedes pretty much made Zlatan Ibrahimovic feel the same way. Culturally, it's not a big stretch to think of how someone with the mentality required to be among the world's greats might be a little more individualistic - if not idiosyncratic. Think of the top men's players, your Ronaldo or Zlatan or Neymar, all egotistical and also a little bit "off". Messi, while not outwardly an egotist, is reserved and awkward and aloof - and also "quit his national team" when the FA was being even more egregious dicks than usual.

Personally, it makes sense to me, it's just a shame.
 

jkempa

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To your point, when was the last time you saw an unattractive female music star? It’s almost like it’s a requirement for a woman to be successful in the music business that she be attractive too, which really bothers me because there are some incredibly talented female singers who will never have the kind of career that more attractive women will have, even if they can sing far better. Note that men in the music industry face no such standard.

I don’t agree that this means that being critical of celebrating of the USWNT when they’ve just scored the 12th goal against the equivalent of a small college team means you’re being sexist, however, to bring it back to the topic at hand. But I can understand why you’re seeing a connection. I don’t think there’s a men’s national team in the world that wouldn’t get crucified in the same situation. If Germany did that to Grenada (the celebrations, not the goals) they’d get skewered, I think.

Edit: mods, I was writing this as you were splitting the threads so feel free to move this if you think it best fits in the other thread.
To carry on the tangent, back when I had a car I used to listen to “Old School” on Sirius XMU any time I could. Michelle Branch was on one night. She was (is?) dating one of the guys from the Black Keys, who I don’t care about at all, but he seems to have good taste in music and girlfriends, because I was super impressed with her the night she was on with him. And she contrasted their photo shoots and the like, and while it wasn’t particularly surprising, it was really illuminating in a way that I think about now almost any time I see a female musician, either live or elsewhere. There is a complete double standard, which I have always tried not to perpetuate, but man once you look for it, it’s so obvious.
 

67YAZ

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Really impressive comeback. The Matildas were on the front foot the entire second half, looked like a completely inspired team.
 

SidelineCameras

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Lindsey Horan, your reminder that without the combination of Title IX and rampant sexism around the world the USWNT would probably be nearly as shitty as the USMNT because USSF is a trashpile
Can you expand upon this? Rudimentary googling didn't help and I'm wondering what the story is here.