Why do you want to trade Scary Terry?

Why do you want to trade Terry Rozier?

  • Save on luxury tax

    Votes: 14 12.7%
  • The current team isn't good enough to win now, need to use him and other assets to get another star

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Extend the window after Horford/Irving/Hayward declines

    Votes: 18 16.4%
  • He could be combined with other assets to get a better player in the draft

    Votes: 28 25.5%
  • He could be replaced with a draft pick in a 1-for-1 trade

    Votes: 9 8.2%
  • He is too good to be a backup

    Votes: 27 24.5%
  • Redundant with Marcus Smart

    Votes: 11 10.0%
  • He won't re-sign in Boston

    Votes: 40 36.4%
  • He'll never be worth more than he is right now

    Votes: 59 53.6%
  • Danny Ainge gave me Stockholm Syndrome and I can't imagine a Celtics offseason without any trades

    Votes: 16 14.5%

  • Total voters
    110

JCizzle

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Talk about recency bias. All of you who want to trade Kyrie need to go back and watch the first 50 games of the season. Hell, just watch any series of Kyrie & Big Al two man game highlights from the first 10 games. Kyrie is exactly the sort of star this team needs. Does everyone forget how he raises his game, on both ends, in the playoffs?
Let’s stop with all the dime and two nickels for Kyrie’s quarter talk. Sheesh!
This is all crazy talk. Trading Kyrie. Trading Haywerd. C'mon. This shouldn't and won't happen.

I blame the NBA for this, we need basketball and there's none until tomorrow night.
 

Marceline

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2. KI is injury prone & has knee issues that will affect the rest of his career
Part of my thinking is that I worry that Kyrie's injuries may turn out to be chronic. 25 year olds with issues with their knees worry me. But that may be spectacularly uninformed. Any SoSH docs reading this with a view, albeit without the benefit of in person review, on this topic?
Based on what we know of Kyrie's injury, doctors - both on this site and elsewhere - have said there's no reason to think it will remain a chronic issue.

Here's an excerpt from Dr. Jessica Flynn at BSJ:

I absolutely think he’s going to be able to come back and this is not going to be a chronic problem. He’s not a damaged player. I think he’s going to do alright with this.

If there is an infection, once you get rid of the infection, the knee should be fine. Patients feel a lot better and they should be fine. Plus, if the hardware was causing some pain, now the hardware is gone too. It’s all positive for him in the end, it’s just that the timing stinks.
https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2018/04/06/kyrie-irvings-long-term-prognosis-look-knee-infection-checking-dr-flynn/
 

TheoShmeo

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No doubt Kahwai is a huge injury question mark too. An assumption in there is that the Celts would do a thorough review and get satisfied about that before any trade.

I agree wholeheartedly that talk of trading Kyrie is pretty out there.

And there are a lot of moving parts and assumptions that make this conversation even tougher. Do we assume that if they trade Kyrie, they can and will keep Smart and Rozier? And who do they end up with if they keep Kyrie (as I strongly expect they will)?

I just don’t know that I think that this team is better with

- Kyrie and one or both of of Smart/Rozier, than

- One or both of Smart/Rozier and Leonard

Said differently, this discussion, for me, is never about Kyrie versus Rozier. It’s the whole, resulting picture.

Make no mistake, I will be ecstatic to root for the Cs with Kyrie Irving on them next year and am not banging the drum to trade him. I just leave room the possibility that the overall team make-up could be better if he is used to bring back better pieces than Rozier (or Smart) could.
 

ALiveH

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We already have a backup PG (Marcus Smart) who's good enough to start in a pinch. And PG is the deepest position in the league. It's not that hard to find a serviceable backup (hello Shane Larkin) on a cheap deal. Especially, after these playoffs when the C's will be seen as the favorite to come out of the East then you get all those veteran ring whores ready to sign on the cheap. Rozier is awesome, but he's a luxury and we will in all likelihood lose him for nothing after next year. He's worth much more to another team that could see him as their PG of the future and potential all star. On this team when everyone's back he'll be right around 20 MPG I'd guess. It would be great to package him for a high-end lottery pick in this draft to get Al Horford's successor.
 

benhogan

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Talk about recency bias. All of you who want to trade Kyrie need to go back and watch the first 50 games of the season. Hell, just watch any series of Kyrie & Big Al two man game highlights from the first 10 games. Kyrie is exactly the sort of star this team needs. Does everyone forget how he raises his game, on both ends, in the playoffs?
Let’s stop with all the dime and two nickels for Kyrie’s quarter talk. Sheesh!
I don't think anyone here wants to trade Kyrie. I'd like to keep 'em all and let it play out next season.
Going back to the thread title Why do you want to trade Scarry Terry? Terry's insertion into the starting lineup/increased minutes has been an eye-opener. We just want to consider the alternatives of keeping Rozier.

Complete confidence that Danny & Co will make the right decision here.

BUT I do find it humorous that many who were against the original Kyrie trade are now singing his hosana's.
 

Devizier

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I don't really want to trade him; the "win now" move is to retain him as a backup.

However, if they do trade him, I would advocate *future* draft picks, rather than trying to force their way into a high draft pick this year. That's because a high draft pick, with its relative certainty, is going to be extremely expensive. Think the proposed Justise Winslow trade.
 

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I don't think anyone here wants to trade Kyrie. I'd like to keep 'em all and let it play out next season.
Going back to the thread title Why do you want to trade Scarry Terry? Terry's insertion into the starting lineup/increased minutes has been an eye-opener. We just want to consider the alternatives of keeping Rozier.

Complete confidence that Danny & Co will make the right decision here.

BUT I do find it humorous that many who were against the original Kyrie trade are now singing his hosana's.
What's humorous about it? Kyrie proved to be way better playing for Stevens than for LeBron.
 

DJnVa

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BUT I do find it humorous that many who were against the original Kyrie trade are now singing his hosana's.
Almost like we have more info and first hand knowledge of exactly what he brings to the table when not in Lebron's shadow.
 

lovegtm

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No doubt Kahwai is a huge injury question mark too. An assumption in there is that the Celts would do a thorough review and get satisfied about that before any trade.

I agree wholeheartedly that talk of trading Kyrie is pretty out there.

And there are a lot of moving parts and assumptions that make this conversation even tougher. Do we assume that if they trade Kyrie, they can and will keep Smart and Rozier? And who do they end up with if they keep Kyrie (as I strongly expect they will)?

I just don’t know that I think that this team is better with

- Kyrie and one or both of of Smart/Rozier, than

- One or both of Smart/Rozier and Leonard

Said differently, this discussion, for me, is never about Kyrie versus Rozier. It’s the whole, resulting picture.

Make no mistake, I will be ecstatic to root for the Cs with Kyrie Irving on them next year and am not banging the drum to trade him. I just leave room the possibility that the overall team make-up could be better if he is used to bring back better pieces than Rozier (or Smart) could.
Also, if the win probability is reasonably close, I just like watching Kyrie Irving play basketball, more than I do watching Kawhi Leonard (who is amazing and fun to watch, don't get me wrong). But there's something about peak Kyrie that's at another level of fun, and I hope he's on the Celtics for a long time.
 

TripleOT

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I'll take Kyrie over Leonard. Boston is stocked with top level wings, and will need a clutch time shotmaker to win a title. Kyrie has proven he can make the big shot in the big game.
 

FL4WL3SS

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It technically is...., but,....

A sign-and-trade only works if Rozier wants to go to a team that wants him, but doesn't have the cap space to sign him to an offer sheet. And the Celtics leverage would not necessarily be all that high; maybe Rozier would prefer to go to Team A that doesn't have cap space. But if the trade doesn't happen, he's perfectly happy to sign an offer sheet with Team B as his Plan B. It seems unlikely that he would be looking at a max contract when he becomes a free agent, so there may be several teams with cap space to simply sign him. There are other restrictions on sign-and-trades that impact teams that are well above the tax threshold, as well as Base Year Compensation complexities that may apply.

Sign-and-trades don't happen as much since the CBA was revised in 2011; players get the same salary either way, so they don't have as much incentive to agree to a sign-and-trade.
Great explanation, thank you.
 

Manzivino

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Kawhi is due for a big contract the same time as Kyrie, trading for him presents the exact same issues in terms of affording Smart/Rozier longterm except now you don’t have a point guard among your top 5 players (Kawhi, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, Horford).

Kyrie is a top 20 player in the league and has shown he can be the second best player on a champion. Kyrie/Brown/Hayward/Tatum/Horford is going to score at a ridiculous rate. I love Rozier but he’s also playing much better in the playoffs than he did in the regular season (he only shot 41% from 2 this year) and there’s no guarantee this breakout is sustainable. I wonder what these conversations would look like if Washington won game 82.
 

the moops

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Im in the trade him camp mostly because I think he is not quite as good as he has been playing and
I don't really want to trade him; the "win now" move is to retain him as a backup.

However, if they do trade him, I would advocate *future* draft picks, rather than trying to force their way into a high draft pick this year. That's because a high draft pick, with its relative certainty, is going to be extremely expensive. Think the proposed Justise Winslow trade.
Agree with this. Trading for future picks is how you get SAC and MEM and BRK picks that are lightly protected or not protected at all. To move up in the current years draft requires much more capital.

I think a likely scenario is a Rozier + BOS own pick for a struggling young big + TEAM A future pick. I could buy into a Rozier + BOS 2018 1st for Bender and PHO 2020 1st
 

Jimbodandy

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Almost like we have more info and first hand knowledge of exactly what he brings to the table when not in Lebron's shadow.
I don't remember a lot of Kyrie sucks talk. There were a lot of inflated IT opinions and concern about giving away an unprotected, high pick.

Those of us riding either of those horses (or both) were wrong.
 

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I don't remember a lot of Kyrie sucks talk. There were a lot of inflated IT opinions and concern about giving away an unprotected, high pick.

Those of us riding either of those horses (or both) were wrong.
I'm pretty sure there were people arguing that Kyrie was barely a top 10 point guard in the league, much less a top 20 player.
 

Jimbodandy

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I'm pretty sure there were people arguing that Kyrie was barely a top 10 point guard in the league, much less a top 20 player.
Now that you mention it, there were a few. But they were the same cats talking about Jae Crowder like he was the love child of Gary Payton and Reggie Miller because RPM.

Edit: I'm still not sure where he belongs on the top player list, because his defense is meh. But he has the alpha desire to take the big shot at the end of a game, the ability to create that shot against anyone, and a damn good chance of making it. That combination doesn't grow on trees. We might sometimes disagree on its value.
 

NYCSox

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And Rozier and Smart the backups.

96 minutes per game from the backcourt works out to 24 per game for each of them. Ideally you figure starters would get around 30 minutes per game, but that doesn't factor in injuries/rest. There's no reason to assume everyone will be 100% healthy next year especially after what happened this year.

This team will be incredibly deep next year. Unless Danny can fleece yet another GM it makes sense to keep Rozier and manage everyone's minutes. Those guys will all see around 25-30mpg when all is said and done.



https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2018/05/17/terry-rozier-talks-uncertain-future-celtics-amid-breakout-postseason/
Don't you also have to account for some minutes at SG for Hayward to allow Tatum to get his minutes? I don't think Tatum should be playing stretch PF for 24 minutes a night so he'll have to get plenty of minutes at SF as well.
 

lexrageorge

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There were definitely some folks claiming that Kyrie was not a top 10 PG, which was definitely incorrect. The only negative about Kyrie this past season was that his defense regressed when his knee started bothering him.
 

nighthob

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My inclination is to trade Kyrie. Don't get me wrong, I love Kyrie.

But I think the team is likely better with Kyrie gone and plus his return than they are with Rozier gone and plus his return. I'd like to see Kahwai on this team, with a big question mark on health.

Part of my thinking is that I worry that Kyrie's injuries may turn out to be chronic. 25 year olds with issues with their knees worry me. But that may be spectacularly uninformed. Any SoSH docs reading this with a view, albeit without the benefit of in person review, on this topic?

The good news, either way, is that Danny Ainge is really good at GMing so the odds of a big misstep here are quite low.
According to every public report Irving's issue was that the hardware they put in to the knee after he fractured the patella a few years ago was irritating the knee. That's not unusual. Without the hardware causing inflammation he should be fine.

Boston pushed all their chips on to the table when they signed Hayward and traded for Irving. They're not turning around and taking those chips off the table in order to maximize their odds of winning the '22 NBA title. Their core today is Hayward, Horford, Irving, and Tatum.

As Kyrie gets less effective with age the core will transition to Brown/Tatum/2019 lottery pick.
 

mcpickl

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Celtics were not on KI's top destinations 9 months ago. If Danny & Co moved him to one of his desired spots the blowback should be lessened. Fake trade: Call the Knicks offer KI for #9 and multiple future Knick 1st rounders (or options to switch firsts). They could add Kanter's expiring contract to make it work cap wise. I'm biased here, just think the Knicks will perpetually stink and Dolan will do rash moves to fill MSG.
It's too bad both guys are hurt, because if Celtics were serious about moving Kyrie a deal centered around him and Porzingis would be interesting.
 

lovegtm

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It's too bad both guys are hurt, because if Celtics were serious about moving Kyrie a deal centered around him and Porzingis would be interesting.
I think the only way you get Dolan to bite on a deal like Kyrie for #9 + future picks/swaps is if the Knicks keep Porzingis, so they can hold out hope that that combo will take them to the promised land. (Narrator's voice: It did not.)
 

slamminsammya

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Im not sure Rozier is a starter in the sense you want for a free agent. There are so many good point guards in the league right now. Teams for whom hed be an upgrade are all bad, but if you're bad do you want to sgell out dough for an average starter? What is his market as a starter? Orlando? Phoenix?
 

Manzivino

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It's too bad both guys are hurt, because if Celtics were serious about moving Kyrie a deal centered around him and Porzingis would be interesting.
If Kyrie weren't hurt there would be no talk about moving him, because Rozier's breakout only came about as a starter.

The argument for trading Rozier is:
  1. He's not as good as Kyrie but he's played himself into being too expensive for the Celtics as a longterm backup
  2. He's going to be more expensive than Smart and Smart is a better fit off the bench from a roster construction point with Kyrie/Brown/Hayward starting
  3. His value is likely never going to be higher after a phenomenal playoff run with another cheap year on his rookie deal
  4. The free agent market is barren this year for point guards as anything other than stopgaps. I mean empty. Assuming CP3 stays in Houston there is just nothing appealing. Tony Parker! IT's hip! Rondo's out there and may have played himself into a starting gig with his playoff run I guess but he's not a longterm answer for anyone.
    • Sidenote: if Smart could shoot at all he would be ludicrously rich this offseason.
I would only expect a move on draft night if it's a no-brainer offer. The two biggest factors in whether to cash in Rozier this summer are Kyrie's rehab and Smart's free agency and neither of those will be definitive before the draft. If Smart re-signs, they'll probably look to move Rozier after the first wave of the offseason when teams start to panic.

I've said it before, the destination that makes the most sense for Rozier if he's moved this offseason is Phoenix. They need to show Booker they're committed to improving so he'll sign his extension, they have enough extra draft assets and young bigs to put together a package without hamstringing themselves (Bender, Chriss, #16 this year, future Bucks first, Heat 2021 unprotected first) and plenty of cap space to pay Rozier when he's up.
 

Swedgin

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If Kyrie weren't hurt there would be no talk about moving him, because Rozier's breakout only came about as a starter.

The argument for trading Rozier is:
  1. He's not as good as Kyrie but he's played himself into being too expensive for the Celtics as a longterm backup
  2. He's going to be more expensive than Smart and Smart is a better fit off the bench from a roster construction point with Kyrie/Brown/Hayward starting
  3. His value is likely never going to be higher after a phenomenal playoff run with another cheap year on his rookie deal
  4. The free agent market is barren this year for point guards as anything other than stopgaps. I mean empty. Assuming CP3 stays in Houston there is just nothing appealing. Tony Parker! IT's hip! Rondo's out there and may have played himself into a starting gig with his playoff run I guess but he's not a longterm answer for anyone.
    • Sidenote: if Smart could shoot at all he would be ludicrously rich this offseason.
I would only expect a move on draft night if it's a no-brainer offer. The two biggest factors in whether to cash in Rozier this summer are Kyrie's rehab and Smart's free agency and neither of those will be definitive before the draft. If Smart re-signs, they'll probably look to move Rozier after the first wave of the offseason when teams start to panic.

I've said it before, the destination that makes the most sense for Rozier if he's moved this offseason is Phoenix. They need to show Booker they're committed to improving so he'll sign his extension, they have enough extra draft assets and young bigs to put together a package without hamstringing themselves (Bender, Chriss, #16 this year, future Bucks first, Heat 2021 unprotected first) and plenty of cap space to pay Rozier when he's up.
Agree with all of the above except the bolded. His value will be the same or even higher to a rebuilding team at the deadline. The point guard position is deep across the league. Only a handful of teams don't have long term solutions: Cavs (sans Lebron), Orlando, Phoenix. If there was a team on the cusp of making the playoffs I would agree that the off season if the time to move him. But given that the teams who are in the market for a PG are still very much in the rebuilding cycle, they should want to bank losses and Rozier's value is as a long term piece. You still get his restricted rights if you acquire him now or at the deadline.

Given that dynamic, why move him now if you are Danny. Maybe this team looks like world beaters next year and they are all in to win a title. Maybe Kyrie's knee is sore. Maybe Smart punches another picture. The Celts could have up to four picks in next year's draft. Another mid to late first round pick has less value to this franchise than almost any other in the league. So if you are going to move Terry it should be for a player that fits a current, or projected need or a future pick with very limited protections. Barring that keep him and see what the RFA market looks like in 2019. Maybe his restricted status depresses his value and Danny can get him for a fair price. Then he can be piece in the Brow deal, we all know Ainge dreams about each night.
 

Manzivino

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mcpickl

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If Kyrie weren't hurt there would be no talk about moving him, because Rozier's breakout only came about as a starter.
Depends upon who's talking I suppose.

If Kyrie and Porzingis were both healthy, I'd still be trying to make a deal there. Rozier doesn't even really go into my calculus. I just don't like guys that can't/won't defend like Kyrie.

I'd be just as happy starting Smart at point, or a jumbo lineup with Hayward at point if/when he's healthy enough, than Rozier.
 

JCizzle

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If I were to trade Terry, it would be as part of a deal to get into the top 5 to draft Mo Bamba.
I get the Bamba love, he fits a need to body against Embiid for the next decade. However, is he the best use of resources? The best big men left are Draymond/Horford/Love/Capela. Would he get run off the court through switches? He has the potential to be a beast, I can certainly see the argument for him though.
 
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BigSoxFan

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I don’t think Rozier plus Sac 2019 gets us anywhere near a top 5-6 pick. Phoenix ain’t giving up #1 for that. Sac isn’t giving up #2. Atlanta doesn’t need a PG. Memphis has Conley. Dallas has Dennis Smith. Orlando could use a PG but Rozier/Sac 2019 isn’t getting them to budge when they’d probably just be able to draft Trae Young.

I think getting that high would require Rozier, Sac, AND Memphis with minimal protections. Clearly, that’s far too much for us to give up, which is why I don’t think that it’s going to happen.

I do agree with the poster who keeps mentioning Phoenix and Bender is the guy I’d be targeting. Something like Bender/16 for Rozier/27/Memphis might make sense for both teams.

Phoenix gets a PG who fits their style and a nice future pick. Celtics get a young big who could potentially flourish under Stevens and a mid-round pick to add to the bench next year while keeping the Sac 2019 for a larger deal.

Obviously can’t complain about the Tatum trade but too bad Ainge couldn’t get #1 protection removed in 2019. Would really have made trading the pick a lot easier.
 

Ed Hillel

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The odds of the Sac pick being 1 is like 5%. It shouldn’t hurt value much.
Sure, but usually you'd set the deal up so that that guy was an expiring.
What’s the point in that? Might as well keep Kyrie for a year and then let him walk.
This is all crazy talk. Trading Kyrie. Trading Haywerd. C'mon. This shouldn't and won't happen.

I blame the NBA for this, we need basketball and there's none until tomorrow night.
If Anthony Davis is on the table, both of those guys are as well. Leonard? Hard pass.

I do tend to agree Danny wouldn’t do that to Hayward, but he might. He’s savage, and I love him for it. Whatever makes the team better. Kyrie absolutely would be, but Pelicans are gonna want Brown or Tatum in a package.
 
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Jimbodandy

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I don’t think Rozier plus Sac 2019 gets us anywhere near a top 5-6 pick. Phoenix ain’t giving up #1 for that. Sac isn’t giving up #2. Atlanta doesn’t need a PG. Memphis has Conley. Dallas has Dennis Smith. Orlando could use a PG but Rozier/Sac 2019 isn’t getting them to budge when they’d probably just be able to draft Trae Young.

I think getting that high would require Rozier, Sac, AND Memphis with minimal protections. Clearly, that’s far too much for us to give up, which is why I don’t think that it’s going to happen.

I do agree with the poster who keeps mentioning Phoenix and Bender is the guy I’d be targeting. Something like Bender/16 for Rozier/27/Memphis might make sense for both teams.

Phoenix gets a PG who fits their style and a nice future pick. Celtics get a young big who could potentially flourish under Stevens and a mid-round pick to add to the bench next year while keeping the Sac 2019 for a larger deal.

Obviously can’t complain about the Tatum trade but too bad Ainge couldn’t get #1 protection removed in 2019. Would really have made trading the pick a lot easier.
I'm lost as to why anyone sees Bender as an asset. Sure, a lottery ticket maybe. He is still very young. But 125 games in and he's shooting 38% from the field. Not from 3, from the field period. He doesn't pass, rebound, or steal/block. And 16 is shit, even in this draft.

I wouldn't do Bender/16 for Rozier/27. I'd rather hedge the Kyrie injury and other things and throw Terry 20 minutes somehow next year than do that. Nevermind throwing in the Memphis pick on top of it.
 

GoDa

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I'm fully in the camp of letting Rozier's contract run out in Boston... Let's keep the band together and look forward to a healthy and truly epic season, next year.

The Celtics have several extra teen-ish (likely) 1st round picks coming in the next few drafts to plug holes and develop. Getting rid of Rozier a season early for a scrub-ish big and another 15th pick in the 1st round doesn't do it for me.
 

BigSoxFan

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I'm lost as to why anyone sees Bender as an asset. Sure, a lottery ticket maybe. He is still very young. But 125 games in and he's shooting 38% from the field. Not from 3, from the field period. He doesn't pass, rebound, or steal/block. And 16 is shit, even in this draft.

I wouldn't do Bender/16 for Rozier/27. I'd rather hedge the Kyrie injury and other things and throw Terry 20 minutes somehow next year than do that. Nevermind throwing in the Memphis pick on top of it.
The guy is 20.5 years-old and showed flashes at the end of last year. He is still very much a raw prospect but the potential intrigue is that you’re getting a lottery talent on a discount and have a few years of Stevens development to see if there’s anything there.

I certainly understand the value of keeping Rozier next year and think it’s possible because his trade value may not be high enough to warrant dealing him given what the Celtics are building.

I do think all the talk of moving into the top 5 or 6 is unrealistic. Rozier plus Sac isn’t getting you there. Perhaps someone would bite on that package later in the lottery.

Ultimately, I think our trade assets are more valuable to us than to other teams and we’ll go into next season with both Sac and Mem in hand.
 

Devizier

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The guy is 20.5 years-old and showed flashes at the end of last year. He is still very much a raw prospect but the potential intrigue is that you’re getting a lottery talent on a discount and have a few years of Stevens development to see if there’s anything there.
I don't see why Phoenix sells on Bender. They made him a starter in January and he stepped up his minutes pretty much every month of the season. I also don't know if Bender even sees the court in Boston. I think this year shows that you can't count out injuries, but going into next season Bender would be at best the 5th wing on the depth chart.
 

BigSoxFan

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I don't see why Phoenix sells on Bender. They made him a starter in January and he stepped up his minutes pretty much every month of the season. I also don't know if Bender even sees the court in Boston. I think this year shows that you can't count out injuries, but going into next season Bender would be at best the 5th wing on the depth chart.
In this hypothetical, they sell on Bender to get Rozier who would fit in nicely on that roster.

Ayton
Chriss
Jackson
Booker
Rozier

That has the makings of a decent team in time and Rozier is only 24 so he’d be entering his prime right as they hope to compete.

Now, if they take Doncic then I doubt they trade Bender but I’m assuming they go Ayton.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
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I don't see why Phoenix sells on Bender. They made him a starter in January and he stepped up his minutes pretty much every month of the season. I also don't know if Bender even sees the court in Boston. I think this year shows that you can't count out injuries, but going into next season Bender would be at best the 5th wing on the depth chart.
Phoenix made Bender a starter in the same way Brad gave Yabusele minutes in that each were done by default. We discredit players who put up numbers on terrible teams, like Josh Jackson did, but are giving a kid the benefit of the doubt for NOT putting up numbers on a terrible team in Bender? So far the only thing Bender has shown is that he's not an NBA player. Maybe that can change down the road but the early returns aren't encouraging. Using the term "lottery talent" when describing this player is not a good evaluation of his upside.
 

BigSoxFan

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May 31, 2007
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Phoenix made Bender a starter in the same way Brad gave Yabusele minutes in that each were done by default. We discredit players who put up numbers on terrible teams, like Josh Jackson did, but are giving a kid the benefit of the doubt for NOT putting up numbers on a terrible team in Bender? So far the only thing Bender has shown is that he's not an NBA player. Maybe that can change down the road but the early returns aren't encouraging. Using the term "lottery talent" when describing this player is not a good evaluation of his upside.
Disagree. He was always going to be a developmental prospect so his first 2 years being rough are no surprise to anyone. He was the 4th pick in the draft 2 years ago. He is a lottery talent by definition.

Ainge was linked to Bender a bit before the draft. No idea what his level of interest was then or now but if he still has some interest, now is the time to buy if he thinks there’s something there.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
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Disagree. He was always going to be a developmental prospect so his first 2 years being rough are no surprise to anyone. He was the 4th pick in the draft 2 years ago. He is a lottery talent by definition.

Ainge was linked to Bender a bit before the draft. No idea what his level of interest was then or now but if he still has some interest, now is the time to buy if he thinks there’s something there.
I'm not surprised because I didn't have him as a lottery talent when he was drafted as I had his upside as a 3-and-D guy. He played stiff, upright, and mechanical prior to entering the league.....these traits historically don't translate well to NBA success. Player evaluation has zero to do with where one was selected in their draft. He has not shown in the two years since being drafted that he has this ability. His trade value is nil at this point. He'd be in that 13th man mix with Yabusele......these guys aren't traded for assets.
 

benhogan

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Nov 2, 2007
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I'm not surprised because I didn't have him as a lottery talent when he was drafted as I had his upside as a 3-and-D guy. He played stiff, upright, and mechanical prior to entering the league.....these traits historically don't translate well to NBA success. Player evaluation has zero to do with where one was selected in their draft. He has not shown in the two years since being drafted that he has this ability. His trade value is nil at this point. He'd be in that 13th man mix with Yabusele......these guys aren't traded for assets.
Agree.
Giving up 1yr of very cheap Rozier ($3M) for 2yrs of still developing Bender ($10.5M) is a non-starter. We get 2yrs of Baynes for that salary difference alone. Celtics, contending for a title next year, can only have so many projects on the roster (Ojeleye, Yabusele and Nader)
Terry will play a key role on a title contending Celtics team next season. He can get 25-30 minutes with or without Smart/Kyrie on the roster. Players coming back from injury will take time to heal, new injuries will happen, and players will need rest during the course of the season to perform efficiently.
 
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BigSoxFan

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I'm not surprised because I didn't have him as a lottery talent when he was drafted as I had his upside as a 3-and-D guy. He played stiff, upright, and mechanical prior to entering the league.....these traits historically don't translate well to NBA success. Player evaluation has zero to do with where one was selected in their draft. He has not shown in the two years since being drafted that he has this ability. His trade value is nil at this point. He'd be in that 13th man mix with Yabusele......these guys aren't traded for assets.
Bender’s trade value isn’t nil. I understand why we wouldn’t trade Rozier for him but his trade value is more than just salary filler. His shooting has been poor but the form and touch remains very good for a guy his size.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Mar 26, 2005
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Bender’s trade value isn’t nil. I understand why we wouldn’t trade Rozier for him but his trade value is more than just salary filler. His shooting has been poor but the form and touch remains very good for a guy his size.
Bender shot 36.6% on almost 3Psper game. He was something like 3rd best on PHO on corner 3Ps. He's shown the ability to guard multiple positions as well as good passing vision. He's also not yet 21 and to the extent PHO ran an offensive system, it was terrible for him and Kokoskov should be good for his development.

I would love to see Bender in a system like Brad's where he gets consistent touches with the ball. I don't think either PHO or BOS would agree to the proposed trade but I agree that Bender has some value in this league.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Bender’s trade value isn’t nil. I understand why we wouldn’t trade Rozier for him but his trade value is more than just salary filler. His shooting has been poor but the form and touch remains very good for a guy his size.
Everything has been poor....on the worst team in the league. And he's been passive. If he was a min-salary guy he'd have some filler/flier value but no sane GM is going to both trade an asset and take on $10m over the next two years for a guy who hasn't shown he can play in the league and if he someday can his ceiling is still limited due to reasons I listed above. That's crazy talk imo.
 

Manzivino

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Jul 31, 2006
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Agree.
Giving up 1yr of very cheap Rozier ($3M) for 2yrs of still developing Bender ($10.5M) is a non-starter. We get 2yrs of Baynes for that salary difference alone. Celtics, contending for a title next year, can only have so many projects on the roster (Ojeleye, Yabusele and Nader)
Terry will play a key role on a title contending Celtics team next season. He can get 25-30 minutes with or without Smart/Kyrie on the roster. Players coming back from injury will take time to heal, new injuries will happen, and players will need rest during the course of the season to perform efficiently.
I wouldn’t worry too much about Nader being on the roster next year.

I agree with your thinking in general but have a nitpick. The contract difference between Rozier and Bender is a good point for next year, but past that Terry is obviously more expensive. Bender makes an extra $1.6M next year, then $5.9M the following year when Terry will be making much more than that as an RFA. So if they are dead set on avoiding the Ryan next year, swapping Terry for Bender makes that more difficult. And they’re not getting Baynes at 2 years, $7.5M; if they re-sign him it will take at least the 120% raise we can offer him without using any of the MLE.

Look, I don’t want to trade Rozier. If it were up to me I’d sign everyone and pay obscene tax amounts, championships are priceless. But I’m trying to be realistic.
 

BigSoxFan

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May 31, 2007
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Everything has been poor....on the worst team in the league. And he's been passive. If he was a min-salary guy he'd have some filler/flier value but no sane GM is going to both trade an asset and take on $10m over the next two years for a guy who hasn't shown he can play in the league and if he someday can his ceiling is still limited due to reasons I listed above. That's crazy talk imo.
I’m just not going to bury him for not showing a ton as a 19 and 20 year-old on one of the most dysfunctional and poorly-coached teams in the league. If we went the Suns route, I would prefer Chriss but I remain mildly intrigued by the Stevens effect on a guy like Bender.

Ultimately, like everyone else here, I don’t want to trade Rozier. Will be interesting to see what Ainge does here. I just don’t see Rozier’s trade value being worth losing the Kyrie insurance policy.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
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Nov 2, 2007
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I wouldn’t worry too much about Nader being on the roster next year.

I agree with your thinking in general but have a nitpick. The contract difference between Rozier and Bender is a good point for next year, but past that Terry is obviously more expensive. Bender makes an extra $1.6M next year, then $5.9M the following year when Terry will be making much more than that as an RFA. So if they are dead set on avoiding the Ryan next year, swapping Terry for Bender makes that more difficult. And they’re not getting Baynes at 2 years, $7.5M; if they re-sign him it will take at least the 120% raise we can offer him without using any of the MLE.

Look, I don’t want to trade Rozier. If it were up to me I’d sign everyone and pay obscene tax amounts, championships are priceless. But I’m trying to be realistic.
Agree, we need to be realistic about roster construction.

My general premise was 1yr of Rozier + 2yrs of Baynes is worth a lot more in production than 2yrs of Bender. Heck, 2yrs of Baynes at $10.5M is probably worth more than 2yrs of Bender alone. We are up against the cap so every dollar counts and I'm not throwing away $10.5M on project Bender.

Look what Danny did with Theis ($2.2M for 2yrs) and Larkin ($1.5M), they were serviceable players. I'm just not dreaming on Bender (and his salary) when we are so close to a championship team in 2019.

 
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