Vince Wilfork: new 3 year deal for $22.5m to stay with Patriots

[Stitch01]

Even without seeing the details, I think we can safely say that If he's not the player he was in 2011 there's almost no way he's seeing the end of this deal.  I wouldnt get too hung up on the $22MM number.

Isn't the $3 million less than the cap hit for cutting him?
 
How is this a bad deal?
 

 
EDIT: The $3MM and the dead money cap hit aren't really comparable.  Pats are still charged that full $3.6MM in amortizing bonus hit that would have been dead money on this year's cap if he was cut in addition to whatever the new contract will pay.

 

[TheoShmeo]

I'm not following Stich01.
 
Based on what we know now, how much remaining cap room would the Pats have had if they had cut Vince and how much remaining cap room do they have now?
 
Or do we not have enough information yet to calculate the second number?

 

[Ed Hillel]

I'm not following Stich01.
 
Based on what we know now, how much remaining cap room would the Pats have had if they had cut Vince and how much remaining cap room do they have now?
 
Or do we not have enough information yet to calculate the second number?

 
We don't know for sure. However, let's assume that the deal hits 3-4 million this year and then the rest he makes carries over to next year. In that case:
 
1. Had Wilfork not been cut or restructured, have Wilfork, 2014 cap hit = 11.5 million, savings = 0
 
2. Had Wilfork been flat out cut, no Wilfork, 2014 cap hit = 3.6 milion, savings = ~ 7.5 to 8 million
 
3. Assuming something like the above, which seems reasonable, have wilfork, 2014 cap hit = around 7 million give or take, 2014 savings = 3 to 4 million, though 2015 cap could potentially be 3 to 4 million, depending on which incentives are met.
 
 
Stitch, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[mpx42]

nvm 

 

[E5 Yaz]

I find myself unable to be cold and calculating about this. I'm glad he's back. Beyond that will have to be determined later

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Against the run Wilfork is still damn good. He gives the Pats a big presence up the middle and he'll still garner some double teams freeing up holes for Chandler, Nink, Collins and Draft Pick. I'd be very surprised if the Pats are in any financial trouble after the specifics of the deal have been released. 

 

[Ed Hillel]

Another consideration to factor in all of this is what Vince brings to the team beyond the field. BB and Kraft are consistently effusive in their praise of Wilfork's work ethic and leadership, and don't believe for a second that either of them believes that doesn't translate to positive effects on the field. As a counterpoint, though, the Pats do seem to have a solid leadership core in place even beyond Wilfork.

 

[Corsi]

https://twitter.com/BenVolin/status/449304588709928960

https://twitter.com/BenVolin/status/449304588709928960

 

[thehitcat]

I'm just glad he's back.  I realize that there is an opportunity cost here but I just don't care because I'm a fan and he's may favorite Patriot.  I'm thrilled it got done.  Good job all around Bill, Robert and Vince!  

 

[Stitch01]

I'm not following Stich01.
 
Based on what we know now, how much remaining cap room would the Pats have had if they had cut Vince and how much remaining cap room do they have now?
 
Or do we not have enough information yet to calculate the second number?

Vince was on the cap for $11.6MM.  This consisted of $3.6MM in signing bonus from when he signed the old contract+$8MM in salary and other bonus for a total cap hit of $11.6MM
Cutting him would have saved $7.5-$8MM on the cap (not sure when his $500K of roster/workout bonuses came due)
With the restructured deal, the cap hit will consit of $3.6MM in signing bonus from when he signed the old contract+whatever the cap hit is on his restructured deal.
If its a one year deal with two options and they guaranteed $3MM, $1MM of that will be on this years cap ($2MM of this amortized over future years)
The other $5MM consists of some combination of salary and bonuses and incentives that may or may not be on this years cap.
So cap hit this year is $3.6MM+$1MM+whatever portion of the rest ends up on this years cap vs. future years cap
 
Since Likely To Be Earned Incentives are determined by last years performance, most incentives are likely to be Not Likely To Be Earned Incentives.  LTBE incentives go on this years cap, NLTBE incentives go on next years cap.  Salary, roster, and workout bonuses should go on this years cap.  We dont have enough info to break this down precisely. 
 
Make sense?  Anyone see errors?

 

[amarshal2]

Vince was on the cap for $11.6MM.  This consisted of $3.6MM in signing bonus from when he signed the old contract+$8MM in salary and other bonus for a total cap hit of $11.6MM
Cutting him would have saved $7.5-$8MM on the cap (not sure when his $500K of roster/workout bonuses came due)
With the restructured deal, the cap hit will consit of $3.6MM in signing bonus from when he signed the old contract+whatever the cap hit is on his restructured deal.
If its a one year deal with two options and they guaranteed $3MM, $1MM of that will be on this years cap ($2MM of this amortized over future years)
The other $5MM consists of some combination of salary and bonuses and incentives that may or may not be on this years cap.
So cap hit this year is $3.6MM+$1MM+whatever portion of the rest ends up on this years cap vs. future years cap
 
Since Likely To Be Earned Incentives are determined by last years performance, most incentives are likely to be Not Likely To Be Earned Incentives.  LTBE incentives go on this years cap, NLTBE incentives go on next years cap.  Salary, roster, and workout bonuses should go on this years cap.  We dont have enough info to break this down precisely. 
 
Make sense?  Anyone see errors?

 
What if the $3M guarantee is guaranteed 2014 salary and not bonus.  Then it would be $6.6M this year at a minimum, not $4.6.

 

[Stitch01]

They could do it that way as well.  I assumed they'd do it as bonus and structure it like the Revis deal with low base salary given cap situation, but you are correct, that's just an assumption.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Vince was on the cap for $11.6MM.  This consisted of $3.6MM in signing bonus from when he signed the old contract+$8MM in salary and other bonus for a total cap hit of $11.6MM
Cutting him would have saved $7.5-$8MM on the cap (not sure when his $500K of roster/workout bonuses came due)
With the restructured deal, the cap hit will consit of $3.6MM in signing bonus from when he signed the old contract+whatever the cap hit is on his restructured deal.
If its a one year deal with two options and they guaranteed $3MM, $1MM of that will be on this years cap ($2MM of this amortized over future years)
The other $5MM consists of some combination of salary and bonuses and incentives that may or may not be on this years cap.
So cap hit this year is $3.6MM+$1MM+whatever portion of the rest ends up on this years cap vs. future years cap
 
Since Likely To Be Earned Incentives are determined by last years performance, most incentives are likely to be Not Likely To Be Earned Incentives.  LTBE incentives go on this years cap, NLTBE incentives go on next years cap.  Salary, roster, and workout bonuses should go on this years cap.  We dont have enough info to break this down precisely. 
 
Make sense?  Anyone see errors?

 
That seems like a good breakdown/guesstimate of the logic of the extension.  If Vince is good and stays healthy, then he gets nearly the same amount of money as under his previous contract but much of that is pushed into the future cap-wise through bonus and NLTBE incentives.  If Vince is bad/hurt, then he still gets at least $3M in money this year.
 
Either way its kind of hard to see the team not cutting him or looking to renegotiate again next year so this may just be putting off the inevitable.

 

[DJnVa]

I know he's dropped off a bit, but let's see how he does with the new secondary back there.
 
I'm glad Mrs. Wilfork is back as well.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

 
 
I'm glad Mrs. Wilfork is back as well.

 
She going to play next to Vince on the line? It'd be interesting to see in the 4-3, would probably give Jones a good amount of one on ones.

 

[ifmanis5]

Glad he's back. Here's hoping they make him more of a 2-down guy and lighten his work load a bit. Also hope they make drafting DL a priority.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Here is the thing -the guy works in the system,  is highly thought of in the organization and fills a need.  The only questions - and they aren't trivial - are about age and the ability to recover to be effective.     The Patriots are clearly comfortable betting that they can get, at least, one more season out of Wilfork so they feel that they know the answers to some high degree of confidence.  
 
The other way of looking at this transaction is to simply ask what, if any, other options are there out there versus gambling on Wilfork being an effective player in 2014?

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Vince was on the cap for $11.6MM.  This consisted of $3.6MM in signing bonus from when he signed the old contract+$8MM in salary and other bonus for a total cap hit of $11.6MM
Cutting him would have saved $7.5-$8MM on the cap (not sure when his $500K of roster/workout bonuses came due)
With the restructured deal, the cap hit will consit of $3.6MM in signing bonus from when he signed the old contract+whatever the cap hit is on his restructured deal.
If its a one year deal with two options and they guaranteed $3MM, $1MM of that will be on this years cap ($2MM of this amortized over future years)
The other $5MM consists of some combination of salary and bonuses and incentives that may or may not be on this years cap.
So cap hit this year is $3.6MM+$1MM+whatever portion of the rest ends up on this years cap vs. future years cap
 
Since Likely To Be Earned Incentives are determined by last years performance, most incentives are likely to be Not Likely To Be Earned Incentives.  LTBE incentives go on this years cap, NLTBE incentives go on next years cap.  Salary, roster, and workout bonuses should go on this years cap.  We dont have enough info to break this down precisely. 
 
Make sense?  Anyone see errors?

So, if I'm understanding, the cap savings this year (that is, the amount less than $11.6m) is comprised essentially of the $2m of the guaranteed money that gets amortized, plus the amount of the $5m that is NLTBE bonus.

I would guess that the Patriots haven't gone nuts on NLTBE, since they already have some NLTBE money on the books this year that easily could count against the 2015 cap. Vollmer and Kelly alone have over $3m in attainable NLTBE incentives. So I they don't want to load too much in there.

I think this structure seems to save a bit, and also make it possible to keep him in 2015 and 2016. As an example, lets say that half the $5m is NLTBE. That would make the 2014 cap hit: $3.6 old signing bonus. $1m new signing bonus. $2.5m LTBE incentive. So, $7.1, for a savings of $4.5m. Then in 2015, whether or not they cut him they get tagged with the 2014 NLTBE of $2.5m. Then $14.5 in salary and $2m in signing bonus divided up over the next two years.

 

[soxfan121]

Here is the thing -the guy works in the system,  is highly thought of in the organization and fills a need.  The only questions - and they aren't trivial - are about age and the ability to recover to be effective.     The Patriots are clearly comfortable betting that they can get, at least, one more season out of Wilfork so they feel that they know the answers to some high degree of confidence.  
 
The other way of looking at this transaction is to simply ask what, if any, other options are there out there versus gambling on Wilfork being an effective player in 2014?

 
Nothing with nearly the amount of upside, if Vince is healthy. 
 
And if Vince is not healthy, I'm gonna guess this contract is structured in a way to get him half of what he was owed on the previous contract while also getting the Pats out with a lower cap number than they could have had under the old deal. The on-paper difference NOW (as opposed to when we actually get details) is $600K in the Pats favor, which isn't a lot but it is ~6 TJ Moes.

 

[tims4wins]

6? More like 18 or so - I thought Moe only got like $35k

 

[wutang112878]

Does anyone else think this is a 1 and done deal for Vince?  Its just a guess without seeing the contract details but it looks like the cap hit next year should be in the $10M range, which would have him as one of the top 5 cap hits on the team.  Granted he wont be coming off injury but he will be one year older and we will have the same problem that we just had this offseason and it seems unclear how much Vince would be willing to restructure again.  Sadly, I think its more than likely he gets released next year and this was just buying them time and one more year of Vince.

 

[Stitch01]

Does anyone else think this is a 1 and done deal for Vince?  Its just a guess without seeing the contract details but it looks like the cap hit next year should be in the $10M range, which would have him as one of the top 5 cap hits on the team.  Granted he wont be coming off injury but he will be one year older and we will have the same problem that we just had this offseason and it seems unclear how much Vince would be willing to restructure again.  Sadly, I think its more than likely he gets released next year and this was just buying them time and one more year of Vince.

I think its a one and lets evaluate the future when Vince isnt coming off a major injury, but agreed that Im not looking at this as Vince locked up through 2016.

 

[Stitch01]

 
Nothing with nearly the amount of upside, if Vince is healthy. 
 
And if Vince is not healthy, I'm gonna guess this contract is structured in a way to get him half of what he was owed on the previous contract while also getting the Pats out with a lower cap number than they could have had under the old deal. The on-paper difference NOW (as opposed to when we actually get details) is $600K in the Pats favor, which isn't a lot but it is ~6 TJ Moes.

Where are you getting the $600K from?  I walked through my thoughts about the cap implications, curious if I missed something.

 

[wutang112878]

We know his cap number this year was supposed to be $11.6M, if we add the $8M in salary + $3M guarantee its $11M which is a $600K difference. 
 
But the math is off there.  Allegedly the max salary this year is $7.5M, and it seems the signing bonus is $3.6M over 3 years which is $1.2M this year making this years max cap charge $8.7M which is a $2.9M difference.  I dont get the $600K either

 

[soxfan121]

Where are you getting the $600K from?  I walked through my thoughts about the cap implications, curious if I missed something.

 
Dead money was $3.6M. Guaranteed (reportedly) in this new deal is $3M. Depending on unknown details in the structure (and you've done great work in this thread), it seems like it would be possible to cut Vince in training camp for a total $3M cap hit if he can't walk without a prominent limp. Which is highly unlikely. 
 
And since Vince was due $7.5-8M in salary at the end of his previous deal, it is remarkable to me that he agreed to take less than half of that in "guarantees". 
 
So, like you've been saying, a lot of unknowns that will be answered by details when they emerge. But knowing what we know right now, the Pats got Vince to "give up" more than half AND can walk away for less than they could yesterday. 

 

[Stitch01]

I dont believe that $3.6MM goes away.  He got an $18MM signing bonus in 2010 that gets amortized over 5 years leading to a $3.6MM cap charge in '14.  You can only amortize bonuses over five years so there's no way to walk away from or adjust  that cap charge this year.  It was dead money if he was cut, its still charged to the Pats cap if he's on the team.  The new deal doesnt supersede that cap charge (if it did it would create a giant cap loophole for signing bonuses)
 
Cutting Wilfork now creates $6.6MM in dead money instead of $3.6MM (assuming $3MM guaranteed as reported)
 
If he plays the whole year Id be surprised if he gives up half the money.  We know the most he can give up is 5/8 (was due $8MM, if he's cut he loses the $5MM in non-guaranteed money)

 

[soxfan121]

I dont believe that $3.6MM goes away.  He got an $18MM signing bonus in 2010 that gets amortized over 5 years leading to a $3.6MM cap charge in '14.  You can only amortize bonuses over five years so there's no way to walk away from or adjust  that cap charge this year.  It was dead money if he was cut, its still charged to the Pats cap if he's on the team.  The new deal doesnt supersede that cap charge (if it did it would create a giant cap loophole for signing bonuses)
 
Cutting Wilfork now creates $6.6MM in dead money instead of $3.6MM (assuming $3MM guaranteed as reported)
 
If he plays the whole year Id be surprised if he gives up half the money.  We know the most he can give up is 5/8 (was due $8MM, if he's cut he loses the $5MM in non-guaranteed money)

 
This is why we need a chat with someone like Miguel from Patscap.com
 
I think that the remaining prior bonus CAN be restructured in a way that lowers the number overall. The cap number was $11.6M - $3.6M on the remaining amortized bonus and $8M in salary. The new cap number will consist of his new bonus ($3M guaranteed) and his new salary ($X). The $3M is then the amortized number into future seasons ($2M in 2015, etc.)
 
What you are suggesting is that a team must pay a new bonus, new salary AND account for the old signing bonus amortization, which I believe is incorrect. That old amortization number disappears and a new figure takes its place as part of the "new" contract. Had there been no additional years, the $3.6M number was relevant; with new years and a new guaranteed money figure, the old number is wiped out (most likely by converting it - the $3.6M - into 2014 "new" salary). 
 
However, I could very well be wrong. We should get an expert to resolve this dispute.
 
ETA: I think we might be talking past each other. If he plays the whole year, he will absolutely make more than $3M. If he cannot play due to injury, he will likely get an injury settlement (which I bet terms for are in his new contract) but based on what we know, they can cut him right now and have a $3M cap charge. The old contract is incoporated into and dissolved with this new deal - the provisions and "dead money" do not carry forward into a new deal - unless there are details we do not know about.

 

[Super Nomario]

 
This is why we need a chat with someone like Miguel from Patscap.com
 
I think that the remaining prior bonus CAN be restructured in a way that lowers the number overall. The cap number was $11.6M - $3.6M on the remaining amortized bonus and $8M in salary. The new cap number will consist of his new bonus ($3M guaranteed) and his new salary ($X). The $3M is then the amortized number into future seasons ($2M in 2015, etc.)
 
What you are suggesting is that a team must pay a new bonus, new salary AND account for the old signing bonus amortization, which I believe is incorrect. That old amortization number disappears and a new figure takes its place as part of the "new" contract. Had there been no additional years, the $3.6M number was relevant; with new years and a new guaranteed money figure, the old number is wiped out (most likely by converting it - the $3.6M - into 2014 "new" salary). 
 
However, I could very well be wrong. We should get an expert to resolve this dispute.

I think Stitch01 is right.
 
The remaining bonus money is guaranteed because it's already been paid - that's money Vince put in his pocket when he signed the deal four years ago. If they negotiated his guaranteed money down from $3.6 MM to $3 MM, that would mean if they cut Vince he would have to give them $600K back. That doesn't make sense. And if it's purely an accounting thing, that's spreading bonus money from the original deal over more than 5 years. I think that $3.6 MM is untouchable.
 
And even if it wasn't, why would Wilfork take a deal where he has to give back salary AND guaranteed money? It doesn't make any sense. Most likely, the $3.6 MM sticks, the Pats guaranteed $3 MM additional (spread over 3 years, so $1 MM / year against the cap) to sweeten the deal, and they converted some of his salary into bonus money so he can theoretically earn close to his original money if he stays healthy and productive.

 

[amarshal2]

 
This is why we need a chat with someone like Miguel from Patscap.com
 
What you are suggesting is that a team must pay a new bonus, new salary AND account for the old signing bonus amortization, which I believe is incorrect. That old amortization number disappears and a new figure takes its place as part of the "new" contract. Had there been no additional years, the $3.6M number was relevant; with new years and a new guaranteed money figure, the old number is wiped out (most likely by converting it - the $3.6M - into 2014 "new" salary). 
 
However, I could very well be wrong. We should get an expert to resolve this dispute.
  about.

Stitch has to be right. What you are saying has to be wrong. Otherwise teams would just sign players to new deals every year and they would be able to get charged for a cap hit significantly lower than the actual money they paid. This is the loop hole he was referring to.

Vince's signing bonus was paid. It MUST be accounted for in a cap hit. You can't have it double count with other money that you are also paying. If they pay VW $3M in salary this year that cannot take the place on the cap of $3M in signing bonus they paid him 4 years ago.

Either that or I don't understand what you are saying.

Edit: what SN said

 

[soxfan121]

I think Stitch01 is right.
 
The remaining bonus money is guaranteed because it's already been paid - that's money Vince put in his pocket when he signed the deal four years ago. If they negotiated his guaranteed money down from $3.6 MM to $3 MM, that would mean if they cut Vince he would have to give them $600K back. That doesn't make sense. And if it's purely an accounting thing, that's spreading bonus money from the original deal over more than 5 years. I think that $3.6 MM is untouchable.
 
And even if it wasn't, why would Wilfork take a deal where he has to give back salary AND guaranteed money? It doesn't make any sense. Most likely, the $3.6 MM sticks, the Pats guaranteed $3 MM additional (spread over 3 years, so $1 MM / year against the cap) to sweeten the deal, and they converted some of his salary into bonus money so he can theoretically earn close to his original money if he stays healthy and productive.

 
Maybe I'm suffering brain lock but I disagree. Tom Brady's extensions converted salary to bonus and restructured the cap hit. I would think differently if this report on Vince was for a restructured contract that added no new years and/or new money. And I think we're all hung up on the report of $3M guaranteed, which makes little sense when applied to the bolded question above? (and why I'm conceeding that there has to be some injury settlement language that pays him $X salary on top of the $3M new money "bonus" in 2014 if he simply cannot play this year - making the "guarantee" more than $3M - but not for cap purposes). 
 
Anyhow, this is all pointless until we get details. I think that when they come out, the "cap hit/dead money" is not $3M+$3.6M (Stitch's $6.6M from above). I think that $3.6M was converted to salary for accounting purposes and the new cap hit for 2014 will be $1M (amortized bonus) + 2014 salary/workout bonuses/weight clauses/etc.

 

[amarshal2]

 
Maybe I'm suffering brain lock but I disagree. Tom Brady's extensions converted salary to bonus and restructured the cap hit. I would think differently if this report on Vince was for a restructured contract that added no new years and/or new money. And I think we're all hung up on the report of $3M guaranteed, which makes little sense when applied to the bolded question above? (and why I'm conceeding that there has to be some injury settlement language that pays him $X salary on top of the $3M new money "bonus" in 2014 if he simply cannot play this year - making the "guarantee" more than $3M - but not for cap purposes). 
 
Anyhow, this is all pointless until we get details. I think that when they come out, the "cap hit/dead money" is not $3M+$3.6M (Stitch's $6.6M from above). I think that $3.6M was converted to salary for accounting purposes and the new cap hit for 2014 will be $1M (amortized bonus) + 2014 salary/workout bonuses/weight clauses/etc.

You can convert salary to bonus but you can't convert previously paid bonus to salary. They can't tell the nfl "we're paying Vince a salary of $3M this year but we're not actually paying it because we paid it years ago in the form of bonus." That's not how salary works. Salary is paid in the year it is earned (unless it is deferred). Salary paid before it is earned is called a bonus.

I'm ultimately guesstimating but I'd be very surprised to find out this is wrong.

 

[Super Nomario]

Maybe I'm suffering brain lock but I disagree. Tom Brady's extensions converted salary to bonus and restructured the cap hit. I would think differently if this report on Vince was for a restructured contract that added no new years and/or new money.

Years and money isn't security. Guaranteed money is security. Brady took a lesser cap hit for more security. Wilfork, if your interpretation is correct, is taking less security and less of a cap hit. Who cares about a second year where the Pats can cut him with just $2 MM in dead money or a third year with just $1 MM?
 
Football and baseball contracts are opposite. In baseball, longer contracts are liabilities for the team and security for the player. In football, longer contracts are almost always in the team's interest, not the player's.
 

And I think we're all hung up on the report of $3M guaranteed, which makes little sense when applied to the bolded question above? (and why I'm conceeding that there has to be some injury settlement language that pays him $X salary on top of the $3M new money "bonus" in 2014 if he simply cannot play this year - making the "guarantee" more than $3M - but not for cap purposes). 
 
Anyhow, this is all pointless until we get details. I think that when they come out, the "cap hit/dead money" is not $3M+$3.6M (Stitch's $6.6M from above). I think that $3.6M was converted to salary for accounting purposes and the new cap hit for 2014 will be $1M (amortized bonus) + 2014 salary/workout bonuses/weight clauses/etc.

I disagree.

 

[Stitch01]

If the $3.6MM is off the cap its a giant loophole. 
 
Pats sign Tom Brady for 5 years with a $60MM bonus with $2MM annual base salaries.  Before year 5, the Pats offer Brady a restructured deal with $1MM of the $2MM base salary guaranteed. This supercedes the original contract and frees up $12MM of cap space.
 
Given we cant get the original bonus money paid to Hernandez off the cap unless he actually repays the money, Id be pretty shocked if there was such as easy loophole that's not being regularly exploited.
 
EDIT: I think SN has the only scenario where you can get that $3.6MM back, if Vince literally reaches into his pocket and hands $3.6MM to the Patriots. Im not sure that would even be allowed under the CBA and there would be better ways to structure the contract.
 
Dont feel bad if you are wrong though soxfan, Ben Volin did the exact same thing on twitter last night and he's paid to do this.

 

[Ed Hillel]

The 3.6 bonus hit is dead money; it's already paid and you can't get rid of it. It was going to count 3.6 million against the cap whether he was cut, extended, murdered someone and went to jail, etc. If that 3 million is guaranteed in 2014 salary, that means his cap hit this year will be at least 6.6 million. We don't know for sure how it's structured, but I'm guessing it will end up around 6-8 million hit against this year's cap and then the NLTBE options, if achieved, will be dead money against next year's cap.

 

[Dogman]

Where are you getting the $600K from?  I walked through my thoughts about the cap implications, curious if I missed something.

 
 
That's what I think too. Nice write up on the cap implications, very helpful.

 

[Dogman]

Stitch has to be right. What you are saying has to be wrong. Otherwise teams would just sign players to new deals every year and they would be able to get charged for a cap hit significantly lower than the actual money they paid. This is the loop hole he was referring to.

Vince's signing bonus was paid. It MUST be accounted for in a cap hit. You can't have it double count with other money that you are also paying. If they pay VW $3M in salary this year that cannot take the place on the cap of $3M in signing bonus they paid him 4 years ago.

Either that or I don't understand what you are saying.

Edit: what SN said

 
Careful here.  Telling someone they are wrong and using the substance of their post to explain why you think they are is now an ad-hominem attack in these parts.

 

[Stitch01]

FWIW, when Miguel had posted his proposal on how to fix the Wilfork contract he kept the $3.6MM as a hit against the cap in '14
https://twitter.com/patscap/status/449314656834699265/photo/1
 
My guess is Wilfork's cap number for this year ends up $3.6MM original bonus+$1MM guaranteed+$750K LTBE incentives for a total of $5.4MM ($6.2MM savings) with $2MM of dead money if he's not back in '15 (not sure if they can spread it out over two years) and the rest of the incentives potentially rolling onto the '15 cap.

 

[amarshal2]

If the $3.6MM is off the cap its a giant loophole. 
 
Pats sign Tom Brady for 5 years with a $60MM bonus with $2MM annual base salaries.  Before year 5, the Pats offer Brady a restructured deal with $1MM of the $2MM base salary guaranteed. This supercedes the original contract and frees up $12MM of cap space.
 
Given we cant get the original bonus money paid to Hernandez off the cap unless he actually repays the money, Id be pretty shocked if there was such as easy loophole that's not being regularly exploited.
 
EDIT: I think SN has the only scenario where you can get that $3.6MM back, if Vince literally reaches into his pocket and hands $3.6MM to the Patriots. Im not sure that would even be allowed under the CBA and there would be better ways to structure the contract.
 

There's no way this would be allowed.  At the very least the NFLPA would stop him.  A highly similar scenario that seems possible is a clawback regarding misconduct.
 
Edit:

 
 
Dont feel bad if you are wrong though soxfan, Ben Volin did the exact same thing on twitter last night and he's paid to do this.

 
Them's fightin' words.

 

[Stitch01]

I agree.
 
Gasper says $500K of the bonus is for making the 53 man roster, with $3MM of PT incentives and a bunch of per game on the 46 man roster incentives so my guess on $750K in LTBE incentives is low

 

[Otto]

I can't keep up with all the ideas in this thread, but two things stuck out to me: (1) the $3.6 from the prior amortization sticks, no matter what, and (2) guaranteed money is spread evenly over the years for cap purposes, whether it is guaranteed salary or bonus.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I agree.
 
Gasper says $500K of the bonus is for making the 53 man roster, with $3MM of PT incentives and a bunch of per game on the 46 man roster incentives so my guess on $750K in LTBE incentives is low

 

Miguel says the Pats already have $4.3m in exposure to attainable NLTBE incentives for 2014. http://www.patsfans.com/salary-cap/?p=369#.UzWRE5K9KK0. If Vince ends up with another $4.25m in deferred cap hit by virtue of NLTBE, that yields an exposure of almost $9m in 2015, so I am going to speculate you're right that $750k is low. My guess is that when we see the structure, by hook or crook, it will be a cap hit of about $8m this year, about $9m next year (including the rolled over attainable NLTBE from 2014) and about $10m in 2016 with only $1m in dead money if he is cut.
 
Edit:  Whoops, I'm $1m too high.  So call it $7.5 this year, $8.5 next year, and $10m in 2016.

 

I can't keep up with all the ideas in this thread, but two things stuck out to me: (1) the $3.6 from the prior amortization sticks, no matter what, and (2) guaranteed money is spread evenly over the years for cap purposes, whether it is guaranteed salary or bonus.

I am no capologist, but if I understand what stitch has posted, the easiest way to look at is the Pats' savings this year will be the $2m they get to amortize over the next two years, plus some amount between zero and $5m they will be able to defer to 2015 by using the NLTBE trick.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Miguel@PatsCap.Com ‏@patscap 13s
If my take on @cgasper 's report is correct, the Pats now have around $9.2m in cap space.
 

 

[Stitch01]

Miguel's preliminary work has him coming on at around $6.5MM cap hit for the year, saving around $5.1MM.  Just over $4MM deferrable as NLTBE and looks like he has the signing bonus part as $1.5MM, so a $1MM dead money hit if he's gone next year plus could cause a cap adjustment of up to just over $4MM.

 

[soxfan121]

Dont feel bad if you are wrong though soxfan, Ben Volin did the exact same thing on twitter last night and he's paid to do this.

 
No worries. I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. 
 
This IS why we need Miguel to do a chat here. This shit is confusing. 
 

I can't keep up with all the ideas in this thread, but two things stuck out to me: (1) the $3.6 from the prior amortization sticks, no matter what, and (2) guaranteed money is spread evenly over the years for cap purposes, whether it is guaranteed salary or bonus.

 
Or, we just need Otto to post more. He also gets paid to know this shit. Thanks, Otto. 

 

[Phragle]

Miguel's preliminary work has him coming on at around $6.5MM cap hit for the year, saving around $5.1MM.  Just over $4MM deferrable as NLTBE and looks like he has the signing bonus part as $1.5MM, so a $1MM dead money hit if he's gone next year plus could cause a cap adjustment of up to just over $4MM.

 
Ok, I like it now.
 

No worries. I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. 

 
You're right about that.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

 
This IS why we need Miguel to do a chat here. This shit is confusing. 
 

 
Miguel is amazing.  The only way I can ever make sense of it all is to not worry so much about the particular techniques that are being used by the clubs to save the cap money.  I find you don't need to understand them to understand the basics.  So, just looking at the basics here, this is what I have concluded:
 
Let's assume the numbers we've heard are true -- $3 million guaranteed, and a $22.5 million contract over three years.  Put very simply that means the Patriots are going to take a cap hit of $26.1 million over the next three years if Vince plays all three years without restructuring and earns his incentives.  That is comprised of the $22.5 million of the new contract and $3.6 million that they already paid him and must account for.  So, that's it.  Not much more to say.  They have $26.1 million to spread over 3 years of cap space.  How will they do it?  They have lots of freedom, subject to the following principles.
 
1) 2014 must include the $3.6 million already paid years ago.  And it must contain at least $1 million of the new guaranteed money. Other than that, nothing is set in stone.
 
2) Any amounts actually paid to Wilfork in 2014 over and above the $3 million signing bonus must go into the 2014 and 2015 cap.  How much in each is the big question.  There is a tension.  The Patriots can defer as much as Wilfork will let them into 2015, if they want to.  But Wilfork won't necessarily let them.  To defer a dollar, it needs to be a relatively hard dollar for Wilfork to earn.  But Wilfork will want as many dollars as possible that are easy to earn.
 
That's really it.  $26 million divided by 3 is $8.67 million.  So, that's the baseline for the new deal.  In other words, even if they don't backload it at all (meaning they simply average the total cap hit over the three years) they still save nearly $3 million this year.  So, one can see that even a modest backloading saves lots now.  And the reasons that matters are two:  (1) Deferring to 2015 is good because they take a $7.5 million hit for Aaron Hernandez this year, but nothing after that, so getting Wilfork to restructure to save $3.75 million basically spreads the Aaron Hernandez wallop over two years.  (2) It creates a very modest dead money situation making Wilfork easy to retain for the next two years if he's healthy and productive.  

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

Miguel is amazing.  

 
Not to let the cat out of the bag but we may have a chance to ask Miguel directly. 

 

[soxfan121]

You're right about that.

 
Brandon Hardin says...nope sorry, he has nothing to say.

 

[soxhop411]

Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer  8s
Wow ... The Vince Wilfork deal is complicated. In 2014: $1.3M to sign, $1.3M base, $300K weight clause, $200K workout bonus ...
 
https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/449960088691019776

 

[soxhop411]

Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer  4m
Wow ... The Vince Wilfork deal is complicated. In 2014: $1.3M to sign, $1.3M base, $300K weight clause, $200K workout bonus ...
Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer  3m
... $500K for first game on the 53-man roster, $87.5K per game in roster bonuses for being on the 46-man roster.
Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer  1m
So that's $5M for Wilfork. Then ... $500K for 50% playtime, $1.25M for 60% PT, $2M for 70% PT, $2.5M for 70%/divisional playoff appearance
Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer  1m
Wilfork can then make $500K for 70% playtime and Pats being Top 10 in scoring defense.
Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer  8s
So Wilfork makes $8M in 2014 if he plays every game, 70% of the snaps, and Pats make the divisional playoffs and rank Top 10 in scoring D.
Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer  now
Then, Patriots have a $4M roster due Day 1 of the 2015 League Year. $3M base for '15, $500K in per-game bonuses, $300K weight, $200K workout
Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer  now
In 2016, Wilfork a $5M base, $300K weight, $200K workout, $500K in per-game roster bonuses
Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer  now
There's some tough precedent-setting in the Wilfork deal from the players' side here.
https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer