This probably came up in the gamethread but Ryland hits everything right to left. He seems particularly badly suited to kick from the right hash, which kicking afficianado/special teams savant BB probably should have accounted for with that last second attempt (if he actually wanted Ryland to make it).
This is now: BB and the direction of the Patriots
- Thread starter DennyDoyle'sBoil
- Start date
- Status
I thought trading the #1 pick was fine that year-that draft sucked hard. Pats just didnt get enough for it. Even Rocket Ismail, who was the presumptive #1 pick who wouldn't sign with the Pats or the Cowboys, wasnt very good once he came into the league.
I would be very leery of a "quantity over quality" trade like that this year though. The Pats just need good players. They have to get a long term, second contract kind of player with their #1 pick-I dont care what position, I'd prefer offense, but if it is a defensive guy so be it. It just has to be someone who ups the overall talent level markedly, and makes the players around him better, and who is part of the next Pats playoff team.
Random aside but I always found it amusing / confusing how he was credited for zero tackles in that game. If you watch the game - especially the first ~27 minutes when the Panthers had negative yardage - I count him in on like 4-6 tackles.
An article by Chris Masson on the Mass Live website pulls a quote from BB from back in 2001 when the decision was to start Brady over Bledsow that seems relivant now.
"“I don’t think you can really get two quarterbacks ready,” Belichick said at the time. “I think you can get one ready and that is what we have to do. We have to get one guy ready to play and that is my responsibility to the football team.”
The Patriots had just lost a Sunday Night Football game to the Rams, 24-17, and Belichick pointed to split practice reps as a catalyst for that loss.
“Last week, the way the practice was split up… I don’t think we did a good job of getting our starting quarterback ready last week,” Belichick said. “That is not a commentary on the players, it is a commentary on the coaches. I feel like for us to get our starting quarterback ready, whoever it is, that we need to give that player the majority of the reps and the majority of the looks in practice to get so that when those looks come up in the game then we can expect him to execute it."
"When you divide the tray and split it up too thin, then inevitably you are going to get situations in the game where you look back and say, ‘Well he really didn’t see that in practice and maybe he would have read it a little quicker if he had seen it’ and that is a coaching problem. That is not a playing problem.”
"“I don’t think you can really get two quarterbacks ready,” Belichick said at the time. “I think you can get one ready and that is what we have to do. We have to get one guy ready to play and that is my responsibility to the football team.”
The Patriots had just lost a Sunday Night Football game to the Rams, 24-17, and Belichick pointed to split practice reps as a catalyst for that loss.
“Last week, the way the practice was split up… I don’t think we did a good job of getting our starting quarterback ready last week,” Belichick said. “That is not a commentary on the players, it is a commentary on the coaches. I feel like for us to get our starting quarterback ready, whoever it is, that we need to give that player the majority of the reps and the majority of the looks in practice to get so that when those looks come up in the game then we can expect him to execute it."
"When you divide the tray and split it up too thin, then inevitably you are going to get situations in the game where you look back and say, ‘Well he really didn’t see that in practice and maybe he would have read it a little quicker if he had seen it’ and that is a coaching problem. That is not a playing problem.”
The Steelers are winning close games partially because of luck but also because they have guys like TJ Watt who can make plays at key times (well, mostly just Watt). The Patriots don't have those guys.
I'm increasingly thinking more that you need STARS in the current game. There just isn't enough difference in the last 45 spots on the roster between different teams to matter and any edge that a top GM / coach used to have in filling out the roster is minimal now. Plus guys only stick with a team for a short time, so maybe everything on the roster comes together for a short time but it's hard to keep that together.
But if you find stars that are a standard deviation or two better than average and lock them up then you have guys who will take you to the next level, that other teams have to double-team and help you win matchups further down. Obviously quarterbacks, but also see: Tyreek Hill / Waddle, Parsons, Kelce, Bosa, Crosby etc. The closest we've had to that kind of guy in the last few years is Judon and he's 31, and a hair lower than the top EDGE guys anyway.
To tie into the discussion: I think it makes sense for Bill to "gamble" on guys with high upside that fall in the draft as much as possible, at the expense of filling out the roster with guys who have the upside of being a backup.
I'm increasingly thinking more that you need STARS in the current game. There just isn't enough difference in the last 45 spots on the roster between different teams to matter and any edge that a top GM / coach used to have in filling out the roster is minimal now. Plus guys only stick with a team for a short time, so maybe everything on the roster comes together for a short time but it's hard to keep that together.
But if you find stars that are a standard deviation or two better than average and lock them up then you have guys who will take you to the next level, that other teams have to double-team and help you win matchups further down. Obviously quarterbacks, but also see: Tyreek Hill / Waddle, Parsons, Kelce, Bosa, Crosby etc. The closest we've had to that kind of guy in the last few years is Judon and he's 31, and a hair lower than the top EDGE guys anyway.
To tie into the discussion: I think it makes sense for Bill to "gamble" on guys with high upside that fall in the draft as much as possible, at the expense of filling out the roster with guys who have the upside of being a backup.
Head coaches have a long history of saying whatever is necessary to justify their decisions.
Way back then BB wanted Brady to be his QB1, so he said what he did about getting two ready.
Now he hates both his QBs, so he’ll split reps and let one of them win the job.
And there was a bye week this time around. Anyway, there is no good solution; the 2001 Bledsoe, who was past his prime and struggled to pick up the offense under Charlie Weiss, was way better than either Jones or Zappe, and it's not at all close. There is no QB fix for this lost season.
It's also possible that he wants Zappe to actually win the job, not simply get it because Mac sucks; and it's similarly possible that Mac is actually outperforming him in practice (since Mac's problems seem to be ones that you get at game speed with a defense that's trying to attack; maybe in practice he's not being scared of getting hit and thus is actually playing well)
I mean big-picture, this is what it looks like when a team has shitty QBs; there's not a huge range of options later in the season
I mean big-picture, this is what it looks like when a team has shitty QBs; there's not a huge range of options later in the season
They're 5th from the bottom in net points. And of the 4 teams worse, 3 have played more games. They've LOST to 2 of the teams that are worse. The difference between the Pats at 5th worst and the Jets at 6th is 25 net points--about the same difference as between the Pats and the worst overall team in net points. The team 7th worse is 44 net points better. There are 5 immensely shitty, non-competitive teams. We're one of them.
Last edited:
They mostly play close games. The problem is they also play close games against teams that objectively suck.
Last year we all thought Mac was given a shit sandwich with Patricia, but considering the offense with BOB somehow looks worse, maybe Patricia actually got the shit sandwich.
I cannot get on board with the discussion that the WR are terrible. They certainly have not played well, but I've been saying it for over 2 years, it all starts with Mac. How can any of the receivers develop (hello Thornton) with a guy that literally can't get them the ball. Each and every once of them has had their game stunted by having Mac throw to them.
BB was on his weekly radio interview this morning and said Mac took the majority of 1st team reps in practice the last two weeks.
No idea if he's just fucking around, and it was like 51-49 or something. He also made it very clear he's not interested in publicly naming a starter during the week and rarely does. And of course, used his typical type response "Look, I don't announce starters at every position every week...."
Seemed to fly under the radar yesterday, but Trent Brown didn't start due to ankle/knee issues (after he missed the Germany game due to a death in the family). Brown talked it about not starting later:
https://www.masslive.com/patriots/2023/11/trent-brown-explains-why-he-didnt-start-for-patriots.html
Thornton? Here's 4 plays from just yesterday. How's anyone supposed to get him the ball with these routes?
View: https://twitter.com/tkyles39/status/1729153025540067396
What did you want the kicking afficianado/special teams savant BB to do here?
They were still trying to score a TD, rather than just sit on the ball and try to tie the game with a FG. They were mashing the Giants running behind Onwenu/Sow all game, so they ran a reverse to that side in hopes of picking up the first down.
Did you want him to raise the white flag on third down and just have Zappe dive to the left to set the ball on the other hash?
I'm pretty sure the kicking afficianado/special teams savant BB knows Ryland prefers the ball on the other hash. It's where they choose to have the ball on his XPs.
The choice to throw to Boutte was bad enough, but then to throw THAT ball, just laughable. McKinney is fast, but that wounded duck made him look like Usain Bolt in makeup speed being able to get into the play as single high safety. Terrible choice, worse throw.
Terrible Choice, Worse Throw is going to be a great title for the deep-dive someone does on Mac's career
Zolak was going CRAZY on the radio after that 3rd play, the slant. He was like, this dude is unplayable. Speaking about Thornton.
The point was is that it’s possible if not likely that both Mac and Thornton are bad.
By getting open and making things happen whenever he has the ball in his hands. Demario Douglas is showing something even with shitty QB play, if Thornton had any ability, so would he. Just as Mac would be making plays even while surrounded by below average weapons if he could actually play quarterback.
Jakobi Meyers has 591 yards receiving this season being throw passes by the corpse of Jimmy G and a Purdue rookie. Devante Adams has 814 yards, of course.
Patriots top WR in yards is Douglas with 410.
The Patriots fucking suck. Their QB sucks, their line sucks, their WRs suck, and the coaching sucks and is fossilized. I don't think it is that complicated. They have bad players in a bad system, being led by a bunch of coaches way past their prime.
The last 3 games for the OL:
vs Was: 0 sacks, 107 rush yds on 19 attempts (5.6 avg)
vs Ind: 5 sacks, 167 rush yds on 36 attempts (4.6 avg)
vs NYG: 2 sacks, 147 rush yds on 31 attempts (4.7 avg)
TOT: 7 sacks, 421 rush yds on 86 attempts (4.9 avg)
Some of the sacks, if I recall the game thread correctly, were on Mac. So their pass protection has been better and clearly they are run blocking a LOT better than they were earlier in the year. Right now, while yes, the whole team sucks, the OL is not really the problem. It's the QB that's the main problem. (not the ONLY problem, but the main one)
vs Was: 0 sacks, 107 rush yds on 19 attempts (5.6 avg)
vs Ind: 5 sacks, 167 rush yds on 36 attempts (4.6 avg)
vs NYG: 2 sacks, 147 rush yds on 31 attempts (4.7 avg)
TOT: 7 sacks, 421 rush yds on 86 attempts (4.9 avg)
Some of the sacks, if I recall the game thread correctly, were on Mac. So their pass protection has been better and clearly they are run blocking a LOT better than they were earlier in the year. Right now, while yes, the whole team sucks, the OL is not really the problem. It's the QB that's the main problem. (not the ONLY problem, but the main one)
You "How can any of the receivers develop (hello Thornton) with a guy that literally can't get them the ball."
Buttressed with zero actual evidence or facts.
Me: "How's anyone supposed to get him the ball with these routes?"
Buttressed with video showing the fucking guy can't run a route, and can't get open.
You: "You missed my point."
Got it.
Here's my point. Tyquan Thornton sucks. If Tom Brady were the QB of this team, he'd be getting the N'Keal Harry treatment.
He's had zero opportunity to develop with Mac at QB. I agree he sucks, but it's really difficult to parse out why he hasn't progressed.
How is Mac helping him run his routes? Maybe blame Troy Brown, but Thornton sucking isn't on Mac. Tape don't lie.
It's actually not that difficult. He sucks because he's got poor hands and he runs terrible routes. He sucks because he sucks.
Mac was getting the ball to Bourne when he played because Bourne doesn't suck. Mac is now getting the ball to Douglas because he doesn't suck. Mac can't get the ball to Thornton because they both suck.
I'm old enough to remember this when he did get open:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LM_behM3Ck
It’s impossible to parse just watching the game live on TV. But people who have watched the film more closely are telling us Thornton isn’t getting separation and is running some of his routes improperly. Maybe that doesn’t tell us why he sucks, but better QB play won’t fix those problems.
I think Thornton has been hurt more by injuries than QB play. He keeps getting hurt and having to re-set everything. Also... he just can't seem to get rid of the extra steps in his routes, they talked about working with him on it since his first camp, seems like it's just a habit he cannot seem to break.
Thornton and Douglas are very different players. Douglas clearly excels at short area separation. Mac rarely throws the ball more than five yards past the LOS. Mac will get the ball to Pop because he can get open like that.
Thornton is (theoretically) good at longer developing routes. Mac rarely throws the ball more than five yards past the LOS. Mac can't get the ball to Thornton even if he got open deep.
Thornton sucks and will probably wash out of the league, but Mac couldn't get him the ball if he was Tyreek Hill. These are related problems.
Thornton is (theoretically) good at longer developing routes. Mac rarely throws the ball more than five yards past the LOS. Mac can't get the ball to Thornton even if he got open deep.
Thornton sucks and will probably wash out of the league, but Mac couldn't get him the ball if he was Tyreek Hill. These are related problems.
is the current line (with healthy Brown and Onwenu at RT) actually below average? I wouldnt say the RB or TE are below average.
The WR and QB being bottom of the barrel is dragging everything else down. Now that the OL has some semblance of stability, it hasn’t been bad. Not saying it’s a great line, but I think people overrate the “average” line. I’d also posit that the inept and immobile QB play and inability for WR to get open at times makes the pass blocking look worse than what a lot of “average” lines get away with.
Do people actually view Gostkowski as a stupid and wasteful pick?
The idea that having a good kicker, or that good kickers are easily available/obtainable, is a luxury not worth drafting is bizarre to me. I can see the argument more with a punter. But the vast majority of 4th-7th round picks are short time backups, special teams guys and guys who never do anything. But that’s also the range where you can usually land the best available young kicker
If you need a kicker, drafting one in the 4th-7th makes more sense than hoping some street free agent will work out
of course the question should really be was Folk shaky enough with kickoffs and long field goals to warrant replacing given his accuracy on shorter attempts.
I don't think anyone in hindsight thinks Ghost was a wasteful pick. I think the issue now is that you can get away with tinkering on the margins when you already have a roster full of HOF'ers and the best QB to ever put on a helmet. Using picks on guys like Rohrwasser and Bailey when you have so many glaring holes on the roster is wasting picks. @BaseballJones posted this a few pages back. UDFA's at the kicking positions hit far, far more often than they do at other positions:
In fact... 2023 NFL top ten leaders in FG %:
1. Aubrey, Dal - 100.0% - UDFA
2. Butker, KC - 100.0% - 7th round (#233)
3. Zuerlein, NYJ - 95.7% - 6th round (#171)
4. Folk, Ten - 95.5% - 6th round (#178)
5. Koo, Atl - 95.5% - UDFA
6. Santos, Chi - 95.0% - UDFA
7. Boswell, Pit - 94.7% - UDFA
8. Fairbairn, Hou - 94.7% - UDFA
9. Dicker, LAC - 94.1% - UDFA
10. Lutz, Den - 91.7% - UDFA
So 7 of the top 10 kickers in the NFL this year (by FG%) were UDFAs, and the three that were picked were 6th and 7th rounders.
Punting - 2023 NFL top ten leaders in net yards per punt:
1. Cole, LV - 46.9 - UDFA
2. Anger, Dal - 46.1 - 3rd round (#70)
3. Stonehouse, Ten, 43.9 - UDFA
4. Cooke, Jax - 43.8 - 7th round (#247)
5. Dickson, Sea - 43.7 - 5th round (#149)
6. Gillan, NYG - 43.6 - UDFA
7. Hekker, Car - 43.2 - UDFA
8. Johnston, Hou - 42.6 - UDFA
9. Wishnowsky, SF - 42.5 - 4th round (#110)
10. Bojourquez, Cle - 42.4 - UDFA
So 6 of the top 10 punters in the NFL this year were UDFAs, and two of the guys picked were by Jacksonville.
Long story short, you can pretty easily find a quality K or P as an UDFA. So WHY IN THE WORLD use a draft pick to secure one, especially when you have a bunch of other holes on the roster?
View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1729267966473367850
The Patriots had the following free agents in for workouts: QB Austin Burton (Purdue), TE Michael Ezeike (UCLA), DB Cameron McCutcheon (Western Carolina), TE La'Michael Pettway (Iowa State) and TE Christian Sims (Bowling Green)
The Patriots had the following free agents in for workouts: QB Austin Burton (Purdue), TE Michael Ezeike (UCLA), DB Cameron McCutcheon (Western Carolina), TE La'Michael Pettway (Iowa State) and TE Christian Sims (Bowling Green)
I don't agree with this. I think the Patriots would be 6-5 or 5-6 with average QB play this year, and probably a 7 win at this point in the season team with average QB play and average injury luck. The QB is the biggest issue by far and I think with better QB play people wouldn't be talking about the WR/TE/OL sucking.
I don't think this is true - QB is the biggest issue on the team right now and an average QB would be an immediate impact upgrade, but (to me at least) Mac Jones looked to be playing at an average QB level at the beginning of the season when the line was a complete mess - he made several mistakes, but so will an average QB. The weird thing is that he has regressed so far even while the line has improved (although the pass protection looked pretty bad against Indy) - he has become basically unplayable, playing dramatically worse against these bad teams now than he did against much better defenses early in the year.
Who the fuck cares? They're not shopping to save the season; none of those guys would have a meaningful impact in the immediate future. It costs nothing. This is the perfect situation for the team to bring in anyone who's shown anything at any point in their playing careers, to see if they can hit on someone (Cough*MalcolmMitchell*Cough). The odds are 99.97% that none of them will be giving up their day gigs at Allstate, but this is a great time to see any of them might be the Renoir the local Salvation Army store has on sale for $10.
Every team in the league does this to some extent. Not every team's beat reporters track down the names because these tryouts most often don't lead to anything
You realize the corpse of Jimmy G would be a massive massive upgrade over Mac? He is literally worse than Zach Wilson.
Jakobi also has 50% more targets than the highest Patriot, Jakobi is playing at the same level as our WRs generally, he's just getting a ton more balls thrown to him by more aggressive and more accurate QBs.
Jimmy G: 65.5% comp, 9 INTs on 168 attempts!!, 7.2 yards/attempt, 78.1 rating, 35 QBR
Mac Jones: 64.9% comp, 12 INTs on 345 attempts, 6.1 yards/attempt, 77.0 rating, 36.6 QBR
Unclear who is objectively better. JG is for sure out of the league next year; Mac will probably get picked up to be a Trey Lance.
- Status