This is now: BB and the direction of the Patriots

[jk333]

Apologies if this point has been made previously, but in 2017 Belichick allegedly said to Urban Meyer that at this point in his career, he only wanted to coach players he liked. This sentiment is so anti-Belichickian BB ought to have fired himself for saying it. The real BB always did what's best for the team, not himself.

I have great love, respect, and appreciation for BB. But there's no clearer example of him having lost his tyrannical edge than this quote.

They went on to play in the next two superbowls, winning the second. So I think referencing this quote is far from a slam dunk.

On the other hand, he (reportedly) made the quote in 2017 and went on to bench Jenkins the very next year in a game where a single defensive stop wins them another Super Bowl.

I’m 100% for a GM change. If that necessitates moving on from Belichik, so be it. I want the new GM with complete control, not just input. But I think their game day coaching has been consistently great, they outperform their talent and are in almost every game. (I’m going to ignore the Cowboys and Saints games, and/or cite them as exceptions that prove the rule)

 

[jsinger121]

Long term (3+ year) pieces for NE, IMO:

RT Onwenu (since his switch to RT, he's graded out as the #2 RT in the NFL)
OG Strange
WR Douglas
DT Barmore
DT White
CB Gonzalez

The rest is too hard to say because of that 3-year window. Like...Wise is a good player, but will he be in NE in 2026? What about Dugger? He's very good, but will they re-sign him to a big deal? I think Marcus Jones is a terrific football player, but his contract will be up after next year and I have no clue if he'll be around in 2025 or 2026.

Don’t agree with this list. Onwenu is an impending free agent. If he comes back then yes I would put him as a block but it’s no guarantee. Same thing for Dugger. Strange is not a building block. While he is hurt he wasn’t good last year and was the epitome of Belichick’s terrible drafting recently. Douglas, Barmore and Gonzalez look like players. Keion White hasn’t shown a thing to say he’s a building block.

 

[tims4wins]

Don’t agree with this list. Onwenu is an impending free agent. If he comes back then yes I would put him as a block but it’s no guarantee. Same thing for Dugger. Strange is not a building block. While he is hurt he wasn’t good last year and was the epitome of Belichick’s terrible drafting recently. Douglas, Barmore and Gonzalez look like players. Keion White hasn’t shown a thing to say he’s a building block.

Fully agree. Douglas Barmore Gonzalez is the list at this point. And Douglas is still more likely a role player than a true building block. And Barmore has had a great year but it’s year 3 and I think it is still more hope than consistency from him at this point. Like compare him to Seymour in 2003. There is no comparison.

 

[lexrageorge]

Strange actually graded out quite well last season, and has looked better the last couple of games. I think people’s impressions of him are biased by the fact people hated the use of a first on a guard.

But also agree that a team where the Cole Strange’s and Barmore’s are the best players is not going to be very good.

 

[joe dokes]

Strange actually graded out quite well last season, and has looked better the last couple of games. I think people’s impressions of him are biased by the fact people hated the use of a first on a guard.

But also agree that a team where the Cole Strange’s and Barmore’s are the best players is not going to be very good.

There are some in the commentariat who will maintain that he always sucks because he should not have been a first-rounder even if he turns out to be a solid player.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Strange actually graded out quite well last season, and has looked better the last couple of games. I think people’s impressions of him are biased by the fact people hated the use of a first on a guard.

But also agree that a team where the Cole Strange’s and Barmore’s are the best players is not going to be very good.

And they’d be right. Using first round picks on interior linemen makes little sense for a team that needs talent at basically all of the more important positions, even more so when you factor in the league’s valuation of him.

 

[BaseballJones]

Don’t agree with this list. Onwenu is an impending free agent. If he comes back then yes I would put him as a block but it’s no guarantee. Same thing for Dugger. Strange is not a building block. While he is hurt he wasn’t good last year and was the epitome of Belichick’s terrible drafting recently. Douglas, Barmore and Gonzalez look like players. Keion White hasn’t shown a thing to say he’s a building block.

I figure if Luckiestman can list some guys that they'd need to re-sign, and other "question mark" guys, then I could too.

 

[rodderick]

Strange actually graded out quite well last season, and has looked better the last couple of games. I think people’s impressions of him are biased by the fact people hated the use of a first on a guard.

But also agree that a team where the Cole Strange’s and Barmore’s are the best players is not going to be very good.

He's not a good pass blocker and at the end of the day that's what matters at that spot. You can get run blocking LGs anywhere.

 

[tims4wins]

There are some in the commentariat who will maintain that he always sucks because he should not have been a first-rounder even if he turns out to be a solid player.

No one laments the Logan Mankins pick. Because he was great. Or say Matt Light around 40 or whatever he was picked. Hopefully Strange is better than say the offensive equivalent of Malcom Brown. Or Wynn I guess.

 

[lexrageorge]

He's not a good pass blocker and at the end of the day that's what matters at that spot. You can get run blocking LGs anywhere.

He’s graded out better than average at pass blocking

 

[Toe Nash]

The thing for me about BB the boss is that it looks like the decision processes are broken. Losing or being mediocre for a few years is not a big deal if there are signs that the process is working and you just need more talent or a bit of luck. Or something that had a good thought process behind it but didn't work out.

Hiring Matt Patricia and Joe Judge is not emblematic of good thought processes. Nor is overdrafting a guard (which stems from not making the money available to keep Thuney). Signing Jonnu and using him oddly. Getting Gesecki when you already had Henry.

Drafting Mac Jones for example was more than defensible, obviously you need a QB and he was well rated. But there are far too many picks, roster moves and other decisions that people questioned at the time and that haven't worked out in retrospect either.

Edit: And to the points about having players you build around, "the process" is going to matter to that end more than what players you have right now. Do you have the right people and decision-making process to properly evaluate what to do with your top pick - the highest one you've had as a team in decades? Do you have the coaching and training staff in place to make sure that your lower picks are in a position to develop? Both are real questions for the team.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

My team is bad but I would say we have

D

Sauce
Quinnen
Quincy
Jermaine Johnson
Huff (if we can resign him)
DJ Reed
…
CJ Mosely
JFM

O

Hall
G Wilson
…
AVT (can be stay healthy?)
Some other question mark guys

I think most teams can get to 6. Most of Jets are D but at least 2 on O.

I think there’s a difference between “long term piece” and “good player”

it’s really hard to keep together a good team/unit and the chances of the Jets retaining all those guys long term is pretty slim. Some of those guys you list are likely to leave, decline, etc. Mosley is 31, what are the chances he’s still playing at a high level in 3 years? Is Hall really a RB worth a 2nd contract in a couple years (is any RB?)?

It would be like a Pats fan in summer of 2007 saying long term pieces on D were Vrabel, Samuel, Seymour, Wilfork, Meriweather and Warren

Other than a franchise QB and truly elite and young/in their prime players (like Sauce), there isn’t really such a thing as a “long term piece” in the NFL.

 

[luckiestman]

I think there’s a difference between “long term piece” and “good player”

it’s really hard to keep together a good team/unit and the chances of the Jets retaining all those guys long term is pretty slim. Some of those guys you list are likely to leave, decline, etc. Mosley is 31, what are the chances he’s still playing at a high level in 3 years? Is Hall really a RB worth a 2nd contract in a couple years (is any RB?)?

It would be like a Pats fan in summer of 2007 saying long term pieces on D were Vrabel, Samuel, Seymour, Wilfork, Meriweather and Warren

Other than a franchise QB and truly elite and young/in their prime players (like Sauce), there isn’t really such a thing as a “long term piece” in the NFL.

If there is no such thing as a long term piece in the NFL then the Patriots not having any is tautological. Maybe say “star” player then we can have a semantic debate about what that means.

 

[radsoxfan]

If Bill is being honest with himself, assuming he still wants to coach and cares about his legacy/winning, he should leave New England.

The talent is too thin here, we have no QB, and Bill is too old for a rebuild.

Looking around the league, the best fits would be a talented under achieving team with a 2-3 year window to compete right now (and a coach on the hot seat).

If he’s up for the cross country move, the Chargers are probably his best bet.

 

[InstaFace]

I for one don’t really care about winning every Sunday. I’m fine with letting Bill tinker and go out on his own terms. If it means a chunk of mediocrity - so be it.

I'm not in any rush to see them be a top team again, of course I want it to happen - but teams often go through lulls and we are in the first one since basically last century. I’m fine with seeing what happens, even if it takes awhile.

I could be weird in that way, but I got enough satisfaction for 20 years that I’m not too worried about the next 5.

Me too. Let's see what Belichick wants to make of things, let him get his wins record. Another season? Two? Small prices to pay, if indeed we even have to "pay" with them in the first place. He's earned enough goodwill to last as long as he'll need it.

 

[sezwho]

If Bill is being honest with himself, assuming he still wants to coach and cares about his legacy/winning, he should leave New England.

The talent is too thin here, we have no QB, and Bill is too old for a rebuild.

Looking around the league, the best fits would be a talented under achieving team with a 2-3 year window to compete right now (and a coach on the hot seat).

If he’s up for the cross country move, the Chargers are probably his best bet.

Ha, sounds just like the Bills too. Wouldn’t that be a Boss move from Kraft? It’d be like Milloy squared and I bet they’d actually consider real compensation.

Me too. Let's see what Belichick wants to make of things, let him get his wins record. Another season? Two? Small prices to pay, if indeed we even have to "pay" with them in the first place. He's earned enough goodwill to last as long as he'll need it.

Wow, that’s awesome I wish I had as much inner peace as you both! Completely disagree though as I’m not watching us win a handful of games every year scoring in the teens while Bill dribbles out the clock to Shula.

Side note: while I could give a blank about the sports media by and large, his routine of snorting and dodging and leaving his players to take the heat is just so rough. Who’s Macs ‘accountability’ example? His center maybe? Slater? Certainly not the leader of all things Patriot.

Conversely, I remain so grateful for what Bill gave to the Patriots (was a fan at 2-14, etc.) that I actually hope a move could reinvigorate him but this is embarrassing. The roster is a complete mess (aside from a couple pieces on D) and they aren’t even well coached anymore (aside from D). Nowhere near good enough and nothing trending the right way.

All that said, I’m still a fan first and Bill still has plenty of games to right the ship, shut up ignorant morons like me, and coach the team he spent four years rebuilding to success!

 

[NextBigThing8184]

Long term (3+ year) pieces for NE, IMO:

RT Onwenu (since his switch to RT, he's graded out as the #2 RT in the NFL)
OG Strange
WR Douglas
DT Barmore
DT White
CB Gonzalez

The rest is too hard to say because of that 3-year window. Like...Wise is a good player, but will he be in NE in 2026? What about Dugger? He's very good, but will they re-sign him to a big deal? I think Marcus Jones is a terrific football player, but his contract will be up after next year and I have no clue if he'll be around in 2025 or 2026.

Wise will be 30 next year and is a useful player but Id be surprised if he’s in the league in 2026 let alone on the Pats.

not sure Barmore has done enough to warrant a second contract, especially if BB isn’t around at that time (potential scheme change etc)

 

[ZMart100]

Side note: while I could give a blank about the sports media by and large, his routine of snorting and dodging and leaving his players to take the heat is just so rough. Who’s Macs ‘accountability’ example? His center maybe? Slater? Certainly not the leader of all things Patriot.

This is very silly. Mac does not play bad because BB won't answer stupid questions from the media.

 

[Justthetippett]

If Bill is being honest with himself, assuming he still wants to coach and cares about his legacy/winning, he should leave New England.

The talent is too thin here, we have no QB, and Bill is too old for a rebuild.

Looking around the league, the best fits would be a talented under achieving team with a 2-3 year window to compete right now (and a coach on the hot seat).

If he’s up for the cross country move, the Chargers are probably his best bet.

If anywhere, I think it's Dallas after their inevitable divisional round exit. And it's kind of a best case scenario. Jerry will likely overpay, they might catch lightning in a bottle and win a ring and, in any case, everyone will watch. I think Parsons will also entice BB as much as any offensive player.

 

[sezwho]

This is very silly. Mac does not play bad because BB won't answer stupid questions from the media.

I agree that would be silly and it’s not what I’m trying to say. Plenty of suck between the lines.

As a ‘side note’ I think Macs struggle to be accountable in the media could be downstream of his coach’s example of pure evasion and confrontation. His players don’t get any air coverage.

fwiw they aren’t all stupid questions just because grumpy-pants gets his ass handed to him at the office. Bill also won’t answer good questions card carrying fans may want to know like ‘who is your quarterback?’ let alone ‘why did actually you hire an offensive staff that had never done the job?’

Look, it’s a choice and if some folks might see his cantankerousness as cool anti media it’s ok to disagree there.

 

[DJnVa]

Me too. Let's see what Belichick wants to make of things, let him get his wins record. Another season? Two? Small prices to pay, if indeed we even have to "pay" with them in the first place. He's earned enough goodwill to last as long as he'll need it.

Allowing BB to continue on because of what he did in the past is diametrically opposed to what he's always shown he's done with players.

Let him see what he wants to make of things? The time to remake things was when Brady left.

 

[ZMart100]

I agree that would be silly and it’s not what I’m trying to say. Plenty of suck between the lines.

As a ‘side note’ I think Macs struggle to be accountable in the media could be downstream of his coach’s example of pure evasion and confrontation. His players don’t get any air coverage.

fwiw they aren’t all stupid questions just because grumpy-pants gets his ass handed to him at the office. Bill also won’t answer good questions card carrying fans may want to know like ‘who is your quarterback?’ let alone ‘why did actually you hire an offensive staff that had never done the job?’

Look, it’s a choice and if some folks might see his cantankerousness as cool anti media it’s ok to disagree there.

It's not really anti media. He will always say they need to coach better, play better. He's not going to throw players under the bus when asked about specific plays. He always has and always will evade those questions. 20 years should be enough for media to know it is pointless. He's not going to talk about anything that he wants to address behind closed doors. In fact it's all literally on the doors out.

He believes that trashing individual players or coaches does not help the Patriots win, even if it would satisfy some card carrying fans.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Yeah, Bill is a dick at times to the media, but he's never not accountable. He's had the same messaging for 20+ years when they lose... "need to coach better, need to prepare better, need to play better as a team" He's never one to throw his guys under a bus as individuals, whether players or coaches.

I'd also say, he did answer the question of why he hired the guys he did last year.. he thought they were good football coaches and that good coaches are capable of coaching either side of the ball

 

[sezwho]

Yeah, Bill is a dick at times to the media, but he's never not accountable. He's had the same messaging for 20+ years when they lose... "need to coach better, need to prepare better, need to play better as a team" He's never one to throw his guys under a bus as individuals, whether players or coaches.

I'd also say, he did answer the question of why he hired the guys he did last year.. he thought they were good football coaches and that good coaches are capable of coaching either side of the ball

I happen to think being consistently evasive is not accountable. I also happen to see a vast difference between answering legitimate questions and throwing players under the bus. Not sure why this is challenging, every other coach in the NFL seems able.

Finally, I also think he puts his players in a tough spot by not taking any heat for anything. You may think that’s being a stand up guy, that it’s an advanced tactic, I just think it’s petty and small.

Whatever, he’s going to get fired because he’s been doing a bad job of coaching and signing and drafting for years, not because he’s a jerk to the media.

 

[rodderick]

I happen to think being consistently evasive is not accountable. I also happen to see a vast difference between answering legitimate questions and throwing players under the bus. Not sure why this is challenging, every other coach in the NFL seems able.

Finally, I also think he puts his players in a tough spot by not taking any heat for anything. You may think that’s being a stand up guy, that it’s an advanced tactic, I just think it’s petty and small.

Whatever, he’s going to get fired because he’s been doing a bad job of coaching and signing and drafting for years, not because he’s a jerk to the media.

Yeah, I think "need to play better, need to coach better" is just an empty platitude, I think it's very charitable to interpret it as being accountable or whatever when he never offers anything more than that. I also think he spent about the entire off-season doing his best to give the impression he resented Mac Jones and didn't think much of him, or at least not doing anything to disavow that notion.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

If you could give Belichick a truth serum, I think you would learn that, while he certainly has a huge ego and tries to protect it like we all do, that he really does view himself as the captain of the ship responsible for losses. So I think the stiff arm he gives the media is not just an empty platitude. I do think even in the robotic “need to coach better” statements, there is truth about how he really does view it.

But I do agree that his shtick with the press wears thin and is annoying when they are losing. When they are winning, it’s all very fun and we laugh and think “ask him another long snapper question.” But when they suck, the whole my way or the highway approach is grating. But in the end, breathless, lazy, sensational football writing is a scourge, and I really can’t begrudge any coach who has the juice to be able to tell them to fuck off and get away with it.

We have had the luxury that what happened on the field during games was sufficient for the kind of fan engagement that any owner dreams about for decades. Most teams aren’t so lucky, and so they have to play the game with the media. We are rapidly descending into the position where the owner may perceive that fan engagement is not something that can be taken for granted, and that the middle finger approach cannot be sustained.

 

[lexrageorge]

Yeah, I think "need to play better, need to coach better" is just an empty platitude, I think it's very charitable to interpret it as being accountable or whatever when he never offers anything more than that. I also think he spent about the entire off-season doing his best to give the impression he resented Mac Jones and didn't think much of him, or at least not doing anything to disavow that notion.

There’s only so much Bill can do to combat lazy media narratives.

 

[rodderick]

There’s only so much Bill can do to combat lazy media narratives.

You guys have to decide whether Bill is a mastermind with a keen sense for the media whose behavior is conditioned to minimize distractions and keep the team focused or if he's just helpless in the face of whatever the beat wants to spin. That particular narrative was fully in his control and the media spent 3 months throwing him softballs to hit out of the park regarding Mac's status with the team and Bill took all of them for strikes. He knew what he was doing with the non-answers, the "he can play quarterback in this league", the whole not pronouncing Mac's name or playing up the whole "competition" angle. It was absolutely a message and reporters would be stupid not to treat it as such.

 

[jsinger121]

This loss today should absolutely seal his fate on black Monday

 

[jablo1312]

why? he has 2 horrific qb's who gifted the other team their main scoring drive. Fine working w/ the GM side of things but the coaching carousel's probably not bringing anyone better.

 

[twibnotes]

why? he has 2 horrific qb's who gifted the other team their main scoring drive. Fine working w/ the GM side of things but the coaching carousel's probably not bringing anyone better.

and what happens when they tell bill they want him to just coach and someone else will make the personnel decisions?

you can’t have half of bill belichick.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

why? he has 2 horrific qb's who gifted the other team their main scoring drive. Fine working w/ the GM side of things but the coaching carousel's probably not bringing anyone better.

They are 2-9. Where is the coaching genius showing up this year? It’s time to move on. This is an awful roster and the architect of it should not be given more money and high picks to squander. Thanks for the memories, but the past is the past. Bring in Vrabel and Caserio if there’s a desire to have some connection to the Patriots way.

 

[jsinger121]

why? he has 2 horrific qb's who gifted the other team their main scoring drive. Fine working w/ the GM side of things but the coaching carousel's probably not bringing anyone better.

Who built this roster? Bill. He also has been a terrible gameday coach this year. This thing needs to be stripped to ground.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

You guys are ridiculous.

I've been saying since week 5 that the best thing for this team is to lose out. The difference between 2-15 or 5-12 is negligible.

BB deserves a ton of slack here. My line in the sand will he if he fucks up the draft pick. Until then? Let him tank for us.

 

[GreyisGone]

Bill also keeps bringing in his old friends as OC instead of finding/developing anyone young. Sure seems like his time has come in NE.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Bill also keeps bringing in his old friends as OC instead of finding/developing anyone young. Sure seems like his time has come in NE.

He’ll probably bring an old friend back again next year, and I’ll be very happy about that.

 

[Ale Xander]

He’ll probably bring an old friend back again next year, and I’ll be very happy about that.

Who?

 

[Ferm Sheller]

He’ll probably bring an old friend back again next year, and I’ll be very happy about that.

My heart skipped a beat when I thought for a split-second "Tom Brady".

 

[Ferm Sheller]

Who?

Josh

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

You guys are ridiculous.

I've been saying since week 5 that the best thing for this team is to lose out. The difference between 2-15 or 5-12 is negligible.

BB deserves a ton of slack here. My line in the sand will he if he fucks up the draft pick. Until then? Let him tank for us.

A major reason that they stink is the last several drafts, and the FA signings and coaching hires. But this offseason will be different, I suppose.

 

[Ale Xander]

Josh

As QB coach?

 

[EvilEmpire]

The Patriots don't have a QB and that has been clear for most of the season. Not having a QB puts pressure on the whole team and magnifies the flaws that every team has. It's been baked into this season's cake a while now.

I understand being upset about the QB situation, but the fresh outrage every week for something that has been known for while is weird to me.

Edit: But yeah, I hope Kraft fires him so it is easier for Belichick to move to another team. But I'm guessing that a good many Pats fans who really want BB gone immediately also expect him to get traded for a boatload of assets.

 

[Seels]

The Strange thing from a couple days ago: it was never that Strange was picked in a vacuum. Though yea, interior oline in the first is pretty blah.
The problem is 1: They just traded away Shaq Mason a few weeks earlier, and for next to nothing, 2: They had various other needs, and players were still available, and 3: at best, he was a reach. Yea, it's still a reach even when BB does it. I love Belichick and want him here. But the Strange pick was bad the moment it was made, and it was bad even if Strange were nearly as good as Mankins. Problem is Strange isn't Mankins, and the pick is only defensible because he's been an okay player on an otherwise bad oline.

There are various picks that I think were bad even if the players ended up good. Joejuan Williams is another -- taking a DB at a time they were loaded with DB and badly needed offensive skill help. Ras I Dowling another.

SOSH likes to shit on the round 2 guys that were reaches like Tavon Wilson, but at least guys like that had productive careers.

 

[Silverdude2167]

I love the people who are mad after ever loss, when it's now a good thing. We get it you don't like BB and think we should move on. You don't need to be flabbergasted each week after they lose.

 

[Ferm Sheller]

As QB coach?

I wasn't suggesting it, I was only answering your question.

 

[rodderick]

why? he has 2 horrific qb's who gifted the other team their main scoring drive. Fine working w/ the GM side of things but the coaching carousel's probably not bringing anyone better.

Teams are starting shitty QBs every week and most look more competent than Zappe and Mac. If the talent is trash and the HC can't extract anything other than trash, coaching is also an issue. Especially if the HC is also picking the talent. It's done, move on.

 

[Ed Hillel]

As QB coach?

As OC. BoB will probably go back to college Imo.

 

[8slim]

Teams are starting shitty QBs every week and most look more competent than Zappe and Mac. If the talent is trash and the HC can't extract anything other than trash, coaching is also an issue. Especially if the HC is also picking the talent. It's done, move on.

See: Tommy DeVito.

Daboll is managing to get something out of a guy who was mediocre at Syracuse.

 

[Van Everyman]

See: Tommy DeVito.

Daboll is managing to get something out of a guy who was mediocre at Syracuse.

That’s no surprise. Daboll is a good QB coach. He seems to suck at the rest of the job however.

 

[Ale Xander]

I wasn't suggesting it, I was only answering your question.

I know, thank you